All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
It's in the Twelfth Amendment. You should read it so you understand our electoral process. The United States is a collection of states, with each state holding some measure of power. The EC was created to ensure that the smaller states (specifically the Southern states) were not overwhelmed by the states with major population centers. It's quite the clever process when you understand the purpose of retaining power in the States, while electing a Federal official.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
It's in the Twelfth Amendment. You should read it so you understand our electoral process. The United States is a collection of states, with each state holding some measure of power. The EC was created to ensure that the smaller states (specifically the Southern states) were not overwhelmed by the states with major population centers. It's quite the clever process when you understand the purpose of retaining power in the States, while electing a Federal official.
Agreed about the cleverness: I'm not sure how else the Founding Fathers could have sold the independent States on Uniting if it weren't for the Electoral College.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
The Dems do need to look at themselves and make some changes, but they also face the prospect of overcompensating.
The nominating process needs to be opened up and legitimized. The big donors in that room last night can't decide beforehand who the nominee will be. Hillary Clinton was a flawed candidate who was wrong for this election. That's made worse by these donors looking like they put their fingers on the scale for her.
I have no real evidence to back this next statement up but I believe it to be true. A Hillary Clinton who emerged from a Democratic primary featuring not only Sanders but a Warren and a Biden would have been better positioned to unify the party by November 8th. Legitimate options with legitimate differences given to the voters to decide. If she won that race rather than the race we saw I believe it would have helped pull in the grudging support she never was truly able to. There would have been no perception that the primary was not on the level. That would have mattered.
It should be said but not harped on: Tim Kaine was a baffling bust. He helped bring her Virginia, no doubt, but Virginia ended up not mattering much and he added little else. Was the VP slot ever offered to Sanders? Did he turn it down? If it wasn't, it should have been. And if it wasn't, part of any postmortem needs to examine why.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump. Conservatives are enjoying a victory lap and that's fine. The reality is this wasn't the complete rejection of Democratic policies and ideas we thought it was on election night. This loss was about candidate, campaign, and strategy. These problems are not fixed by completely blowing things up. They are fixed by listening to the voters, assessing the country, and not allowing anyone to decide in 2016 who the nominee will be in 2020.
Thoughtful post, but let me challenge or drive discussion on a few points: 1. Would Sanders have made a difference? Initial assessments that I saw (and admittedly haven't looked into very much) in the midwest states was that minority participation was down significantly. Would having Sanders on the ticket helped that cause? I don't think so. His message was not tailored to minorities at all and he struggled mightily with them. You could argue that he may have kept more middle aged, non-college educated whites away from Trump, but I'm not sure that would have been enough or not. I haven't seen how the youth vote played out in those states, so I'm open to that argument. But at the end of the day, it's all speculation.
2. Kaine was not a baffling bust. That is too strong of a statement. Most presidential historians will tell you that the VP rarely has consequences beyond their home state. Thomas Eagleton in 72 might be the exception. He was forced to drop out when it was revealed he had shock therapy. But McGovern was going to get killed either way. Kaine held VA and that was his mission. And having someone earmarked as a potential or high probability candidate a year in advance is not really nefarious. That's planning.
3. At the end of the day, the Dems have a policy problem and one that the Republicans have as well, just the inverse. The Democrats are increasingly educated, white collar, liberal socially and therefore more coastal than their counterparts. There may be a great realignment happening right now that has little to do with Clinton and everything to do with Obama. What do the Dems have to offer mid American non college educated whites? Going protectionist economically runs counter to liberal economic thought. Affirmative action is repulsive in these areas. There is a huge separation on the social issues once you leave the cities. There's just a big disconnect and I think many of these voters have sat home for years, but Trump brought them out. I'd love to see how many first time voters or recent voters (Reagan Democrats, if you will) came to the polls in the swing states for the first time in years.
Point by point:
1. Would Sanders have a made a difference? I think he would have. The biggest reason why is that I believe he would have helped eliminate the enthusiasm gap Clinton faced from Bernie voters. A Bernie Sanders who was on the ticket and encouraging his people to vote for Clinton would have had more credibility. The idea that he would be there with her, a voice to be heard and to potentially impact policy, may have convinced more people to get on board. I lost track of how many times I heard Bernie referred to as a sellout after the primaries because he campaigned for Clinton. I think if he was on the ticket he could have made the case that, "Look, I'm willing to bring the party together and be part of this. I'm going to keep the train on the tracks, and I am going to repeatedly speak my mind, and I will always have you on my mind. But I need your help to do that." I think that message would have played and I think it would have helped with her negatives. You are right, it is all speculation, but this is where my head is at on the issue.
2. Maybe it is too strong a statement. I'm not taking any pleasure in kicking dirt on the guy. He seemed likable enough. I do, however, think a ticket with Hillary Clinton on top in 2016 needed some firepower in the VP slot. I don't think Tim Kaine provided that. And I'm not arguing that having him lined up so early was nefarious. I'm arguing that while maybe it was a good strategy when the decision was originally made, conditions on the ground had changed by the time it came to finalize the decision. The campaign didn't know the Sanders insurrection was coming when Kaine was originally penciled in. I do think sticking with him was a missed opportunity at damage control.
3. Yes, but if we are being honest how hard did the Democrats try to connect or inspire with those Midwestern white voters in 2016? The term "white men" is increasingly tossed around as if it is derogatory. We've talked about the "deploarables" comment before. It certainly didn't help and regardless of who specifically Hillary was talking about, it showed she held a certain percentage of the electorate in contempt. A larger percentage than I believe many people think. Bernie Sanders would have played to those voters better, as would have Joe Biden. Not because they are white males but because both have the political skills to do it and both would have had the political will to do it. Barack Obama had both and won twice. HRC had neither and won not at all. Women and minorities were going to be enough for her. In the end they weren't.
I don't know how we know the answers for sure to any of the demographic questions you asked. The polls were all over the place this cycle, I'm hesitant to put too much stock in any of the exit polls. One more reason why the conversation about this election is just getting started.
The Dems do need to look at themselves and make some changes, but they also face the prospect of overcompensating.
The nominating process needs to be opened up and legitimized. The big donors in that room last night can't decide beforehand who the nominee will be. Hillary Clinton was a flawed candidate who was wrong for this election. That's made worse by these donors looking like they put their fingers on the scale for her.
I have no real evidence to back this next statement up but I believe it to be true. A Hillary Clinton who emerged from a Democratic primary featuring not only Sanders but a Warren and a Biden would have been better positioned to unify the party by November 8th. Legitimate options with legitimate differences given to the voters to decide. If she won that race rather than the race we saw I believe it would have helped pull in the grudging support she never was truly able to. There would have been no perception that the primary was not on the level. That would have mattered.
It should be said but not harped on: Tim Kaine was a baffling bust. He helped bring her Virginia, no doubt, but Virginia ended up not mattering much and he added little else. Was the VP slot ever offered to Sanders? Did he turn it down? If it wasn't, it should have been. And if it wasn't, part of any postmortem needs to examine why.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump. Conservatives are enjoying a victory lap and that's fine. The reality is this wasn't the complete rejection of Democratic policies and ideas we thought it was on election night. This loss was about candidate, campaign, and strategy. These problems are not fixed by completely blowing things up. They are fixed by listening to the voters, assessing the country, and not allowing anyone to decide in 2016 who the nominee will be in 2020.
Thoughtful post, but let me challenge or drive discussion on a few points: 1. Would Sanders have made a difference? Initial assessments that I saw (and admittedly haven't looked into very much) in the midwest states was that minority participation was down significantly. Would having Sanders on the ticket helped that cause? I don't think so. His message was not tailored to minorities at all and he struggled mightily with them. You could argue that he may have kept more middle aged, non-college educated whites away from Trump, but I'm not sure that would have been enough or not. I haven't seen how the youth vote played out in those states, so I'm open to that argument. But at the end of the day, it's all speculation.
2. Kaine was not a baffling bust. That is too strong of a statement. Most presidential historians will tell you that the VP rarely has consequences beyond their home state. Thomas Eagleton in 72 might be the exception. He was forced to drop out when it was revealed he had shock therapy. But McGovern was going to get killed either way. Kaine held VA and that was his mission. And having someone earmarked as a potential or high probability candidate a year in advance is not really nefarious. That's planning.
3. At the end of the day, the Dems have a policy problem and one that the Republicans have as well, just the inverse. The Democrats are increasingly educated, white collar, liberal socially and therefore more coastal than their counterparts. There may be a great realignment happening right now that has little to do with Clinton and everything to do with Obama. What do the Dems have to offer mid American non college educated whites? Going protectionist economically runs counter to liberal economic thought. Affirmative action is repulsive in these areas. There is a huge separation on the social issues once you leave the cities. There's just a big disconnect and I think many of these voters have sat home for years, but Trump brought them out. I'd love to see how many first time voters or recent voters (Reagan Democrats, if you will) came to the polls in the swing states for the first time in years.
Point by point:
1. Would Sanders have a made a difference? I think he would have. The biggest reason why is that I believe he would have helped eliminate the enthusiasm gap Clinton faced from Bernie voters. A Bernie Sanders who was on the ticket and encouraging his people to vote for Clinton would have had more credibility. The idea that he would be there with her, a voice to be heard and to potentially impact policy, may have convinced more people to get on board. I lost track of how many times I heard Bernie referred to as a sellout after the primaries because he campaigned for Clinton. I think if he was on the ticket he could have made the case that, "Look, I'm willing to bring the party together and be part of this. I'm going to keep the train on the tracks, and I am going to repeatedly speak my mind, and I will always have you on my mind. But I need your help to do that." I think that message would have played and I think it would have helped with her negatives. You are right, it is all speculation, but this is where my head is at on the issue.
2. Maybe it is too strong a statement. I'm not taking any pleasure in kicking dirt on the guy. He seemed likable enough. I do, however, think a ticket with Hillary Clinton on top in 2016 needed some firepower in the VP slot. I don't think Tim Kaine provided that. And I'm not arguing that having him lined up so early was nefarious. I'm arguing that while maybe it was a good strategy when the decision was originally made, conditions on the ground had changed by the time it came to finalize the decision. The campaign didn't know the Sanders insurrection was coming when Kaine was originally penciled in. I do think sticking with him was a missed opportunity at damage control.
3. Yes, but if we are being honest how hard did the Democrats try to connect or inspire with those Midwestern white voters in 2016? The term "white men" is increasingly tossed around as if it is derogatory. We've talked about the "deploarables" comment before. It certainly didn't help and regardless of who specifically Hillary was talking about, it showed she held a certain percentage of the electorate in contempt. A larger percentage than I believe many people think. Bernie Sanders would have played to those voters better, as would have Joe Biden. Not because they are white males but because both have the political skills to do it and both would have had the political will to do it. Barack Obama had both and won twice. HRC had neither and won not at all. Women and minorities were going to be enough for her. In the end they weren't.
I don't know how we know the answers for sure to any of the demographic questions you asked. The polls were all over the place this cycle, I'm hesitant to put too much stock in any of the exit polls. One more reason why the conversation about this election is just getting started.
Yeah I think Sanders would have taken it. He would have hammered Trump as a wealthy elite....Clinton couldn't really do that given her multi million $ net worth.
Sanders would have destroyed Trump in the debates. Clinton beat him soundly but she had to be reserved....Sanders wouldn't have held back at all.
Lesson learned. Hopefully the GOP gets their four years and then we get back to intelligently governing.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I disagree. Hammering Trump as a wealthy elite would have done nothing. He had already grabbed the populist mantle. Trump would have painted Sanders as a Communist which would have been quite easy to do and effective considering the demographic we are discussing. And Sanders would not have driven out the minority vote either, likely far worse in that category than Clinton. So the real question is whether he could have retained or split the working class vote.
I'm not saying I'm right but the polling showed Sanders doing much better vs Trump than Clinton during the primaries.
Because there was never a negative ad run against Sanders, it's hard to make these types of determinations. Once you have $300MM in negative media pitted against you, then you can tell how resilient your message is.
I feel like Sanders could have defended the communist/socialist attacks. What he wouldn't have had to deal with was Benghazi, Comey, private server, etc.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I feel like Sanders could have defended the communist/socialist attacks. What he wouldn't have had to deal with was Benghazi, Comey, private server, etc.
Well we don't know what he would have to defend. But normally I'd say Communism/Socialism is a really strong charge that amps up a lot of people. But after I see Republicans defending Putin, now I'm not so sure of anything anymore.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
You are correct on both points Everyone should just ignore the trolls
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
PJfanwillneverleave1 PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 9,775 December 14 Flag Yes, they were that bad. A sexual predator they could not beat. Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE Quote
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
I have said this before, and I'll say it again: if the tables were turned, you can bet that Trump would be stomping his feet and shouting "RIGGED" from the vast reaches of his twitterverse. And many of his followers, I believe, would be screaming louder than Hillary's. he himself said years ago that the electoral college is a disaster for democracy, or something to that effect. he changed his tune when it benefited him. shocking, really.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
and you keep harping on "the dems not knowing what happened". every single person, democrats, republicans, independents and undecideds, on this website has stated exactly what happened: Hillary was a poor candidate, her campaign was deeply flawed, the DNC is deeply flawed, etc, etc.
you are just choosing not to listen so you have a reason to post more. your posting is fairly reminiscent of Trump's tweets, to be honest.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
I have said this before, and I'll say it again: if the tables were turned, you can bet that Trump would be stomping his feet and shouting "RIGGED" from the vast reaches of his twitterverse. And many of his followers, I believe, would be screaming louder than Hillary's. he himself said years ago that the electoral college is a disaster for democracy, or something to that effect. he changed his tune when it benefited him. shocking, really.
agreed....the dems tend to just sit back and wallow in misery. The GOP lights itself on fire.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
PJfanwillneverleave1 PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 9,775 December 14 Flag Yes, they were that bad. A sexual predator they could not beat. Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE Quote
Not sure what that flag is all about but my post was to point out that their campaign was so bad they couldn't even beat a so called sexual predator. I never said he was.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
and you keep harping on "the dems not knowing what happened". every single person, democrats, republicans, independents and undecideds, on this website has stated exactly what happened: Hillary was a poor candidate, her campaign was deeply flawed, the DNC is deeply flawed, etc, etc. you are just choosing not to listen so you have a reason to post more. your posting is fairly reminiscent of Trump's tweets, to be honest.
Why the dismay still from some on here that this happened is what I am trying to get at. Some people post one thing about the campaign and still question what went wrong.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
and you keep harping on "the dems not knowing what happened". every single person, democrats, republicans, independents and undecideds, on this website has stated exactly what happened: Hillary was a poor candidate, her campaign was deeply flawed, the DNC is deeply flawed, etc, etc. you are just choosing not to listen so you have a reason to post more. your posting is fairly reminiscent of Trump's tweets, to be honest.
Why the dismay still from some on here that this happened is what I am trying to get at. Some people post one thing about the campaign and still question what went wrong.
I might suggest trolling in a different thread if you don't like what people post in this one.
You're asking why there is dismay about Donald Trump being elected POTUS?? I think the reasons behind the dismay, which isn't going to go away, are as obvious and clear as they could possibly be. I would personally really wonder about any person who doesn't retain that sense of dismay for the rest of their lives.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't know why this is such an issue. Pretty unprecedented for a nominee to have to deal with the Russian shit and Comey's bullshit.
Pretty unprecedented to have a nominee who is the subject of an active FBI investigation, too.
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
All of that said...almost 3 million more Americans voted for the Democratic ticket than voted for Donald Trump.
This is why the democrats lost. They just repeat garbage over and over again believing it to be true. Do the Republicans go on and on about how they won the election w/ 3million less votes than Hillary?
This thread.
you have called Donald Trump your Jesus Christ at least twice that I have seen. you have also admitted that he is a sexual predator and mocked the american voters for voting such a person into office. you didn't know until about a week ago that you can win the election and lose the popular vote. you take one statement out of Jimmy's entire intelligent and well-thought-out post and mock it.
you have zero idea what you are talking about, and are doing nothing but trolling.
I took one statement out because that was the only thing I saw that needed attention from my perspective. The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened. They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons. I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs? And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember. So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
PJfanwillneverleave1 PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 9,775 December 14 Flag Yes, they were that bad. A sexual predator they could not beat. Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE Quote
Not sure what that flag is all about but my post was to point out that their campaign was so bad they couldn't even beat a so called sexual predator. I never said he was.
the "flag" is the button at the top of each post that you can use to report it. I just did a straight copy and paste, hence the word showing up, just like the word quote and post count.
"a sexual predator they could not beat".
try to weasel out of it all you want. it's in black and white.
I don't know why this is such an issue. Pretty unprecedented for a nominee to have to deal with the Russian shit and Comey's bullshit.
Pretty unprecedented to have a nominee who is the subject of an active FBI investigation, too.
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
Yeah and why? Was it politically motivated?
The Comey letter was the nail in the coffin. She lost the EC by about 77,000 votes. She won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I would not at all be surprised if that is a factor (not the only one oobviously - I think the biggest factor is that Putin simply knows that he can play Trump like a fiddle and knows that Trump and his buddies will serve his purposes well). I don't think Clinton is crazy or paranoid, so she, as Secretary of State, would fully understand the shit that goes on privately (and publicly) between international politicians, especially if she was involved. Hell, the Iraq war was partly a result of GW trying to get back at Saddam Hussien for trying to kill his dad and because he hated him. GW admitted that out loud. No one should ever assume it's above a world leader to make huge moves at least partly because of personal grudges. I bet it happens way more often than we even imagine, considering the personality types who are often world leaders - the egos on them - and considering the personality of Putin in particular ......... Imagine the kinds of grudges that Trump will act on????
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't know why this is such an issue. Pretty unprecedented for a nominee to have to deal with the Russian shit and Comey's bullshit.
Pretty unprecedented to have a nominee who is the subject of an active FBI investigation, too.
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
Yeah and why? Was it politically motivated?
The Comey letter was the nail in the coffin. She lost the EC by about 77,000 votes. She won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.
Whether it was politically motivated or not, it was real and it was known. Democrats nominated her anyways. How do they then act surprised and wronged when it blows up in their faces?
I don't know why this is such an issue. Pretty unprecedented for a nominee to have to deal with the Russian shit and Comey's bullshit.
Pretty unprecedented to have a nominee who is the subject of an active FBI investigation, too.
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
Yeah and why? Was it politically motivated?
The Comey letter was the nail in the coffin. She lost the EC by about 77,000 votes. She won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.
Whether it was politically motivated or not, it was real and it was known. Democrats nominated her anyways. How do they then act surprised and wronged when it blows up in their faces?
It blew up in their faces because of Comey. The FBI had closed their bullshit investigation months before the election.
Comey's letter came out a week or so before the election right? That was devastating. The session several months before where he said "no reasonable prosecutor would pursue the case" was a plus...not a minus.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I don't know why this is such an issue. Pretty unprecedented for a nominee to have to deal with the Russian shit and Comey's bullshit.
Pretty unprecedented to have a nominee who is the subject of an active FBI investigation, too.
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
Yeah and why? Was it politically motivated?
The Comey letter was the nail in the coffin. She lost the EC by about 77,000 votes. She won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.
Whether it was politically motivated or not, it was real and it was known. Democrats nominated her anyways. How do they then act surprised and wronged when it blows up in their faces?
It blew up in their faces because of Comey. The FBI had closed their bullshit investigation months before the election.
Comey's letter came out a week or so before the election right? That was devastating. The session several months before where he said "no reasonable prosecutor would pursue the case" was a plus...not a minus.
I for one cannot believe there were that many people who still hadn't made up their minds by that point that it made a difference. I think she was dead in the water long before anyone knew.
I don't know why this is such an issue. Pretty unprecedented for a nominee to have to deal with the Russian shit and Comey's bullshit.
Pretty unprecedented to have a nominee who is the subject of an active FBI investigation, too.
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
Yeah and why? Was it politically motivated?
The Comey letter was the nail in the coffin. She lost the EC by about 77,000 votes. She won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.
Whether it was politically motivated or not, it was real and it was known. Democrats nominated her anyways. How do they then act surprised and wronged when it blows up in their faces?
It blew up in their faces because of Comey. The FBI had closed their bullshit investigation months before the election.
Comey's letter came out a week or so before the election right? That was devastating. The session several months before where he said "no reasonable prosecutor would pursue the case" was a plus...not a minus.
I for one cannot believe there were that many people who still hadn't made up their minds by that point that it made a difference. I think she was dead in the water long before anyone knew.
And the campaign said it...they released data suggesting that likely voters made up their mind in August. Hillary: you know i think people a long time ago made up their minds.
Comments
The dems are running around yelling fire right now and wondering how this happened.
They are not listening to the right at all telling them a few reasons.
I did know about winning the election but losing the popular vote - and I mock that because it is stupid. What kind of electoral process is that? And honestly I am not saying this to play the opposite game but what if Hillary won the election and Donald Trump won the popular vote, what would happen? Would the dems be silent or the repubs?
And where have I admitted that he is a sexual predator? - if you show me I'll accept, I just don't remember.
So, again just the concept that Hillary won more votes than Donald but is not in the whitehouse is stupid.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
1. Would Sanders have a made a difference? I think he would have. The biggest reason why is that I believe he would have helped eliminate the enthusiasm gap Clinton faced from Bernie voters. A Bernie Sanders who was on the ticket and encouraging his people to vote for Clinton would have had more credibility. The idea that he would be there with her, a voice to be heard and to potentially impact policy, may have convinced more people to get on board. I lost track of how many times I heard Bernie referred to as a sellout after the primaries because he campaigned for Clinton. I think if he was on the ticket he could have made the case that, "Look, I'm willing to bring the party together and be part of this. I'm going to keep the train on the tracks, and I am going to repeatedly speak my mind, and I will always have you on my mind. But I need your help to do that." I think that message would have played and I think it would have helped with her negatives. You are right, it is all speculation, but this is where my head is at on the issue.
2. Maybe it is too strong a statement. I'm not taking any pleasure in kicking dirt on the guy. He seemed likable enough. I do, however, think a ticket with Hillary Clinton on top in 2016 needed some firepower in the VP slot. I don't think Tim Kaine provided that. And I'm not arguing that having him lined up so early was nefarious. I'm arguing that while maybe it was a good strategy when the decision was originally made, conditions on the ground had changed by the time it came to finalize the decision. The campaign didn't know the Sanders insurrection was coming when Kaine was originally penciled in. I do think sticking with him was a missed opportunity at damage control.
3. Yes, but if we are being honest how hard did the Democrats try to connect or inspire with those Midwestern white voters in 2016? The term "white men" is increasingly tossed around as if it is derogatory. We've talked about the "deploarables" comment before. It certainly didn't help and regardless of who specifically Hillary was talking about, it showed she held a certain percentage of the electorate in contempt. A larger percentage than I believe many people think. Bernie Sanders would have played to those voters better, as would have Joe Biden. Not because they are white males but because both have the political skills to do it and both would have had the political will to do it. Barack Obama had both and won twice. HRC had neither and won not at all. Women and minorities were going to be enough for her. In the end they weren't.
I don't know how we know the answers for sure to any of the demographic questions you asked. The polls were all over the place this cycle, I'm hesitant to put too much stock in any of the exit polls. One more reason why the conversation about this election is just getting started.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Sanders would have destroyed Trump in the debates. Clinton beat him soundly but she had to be reserved....Sanders wouldn't have held back at all.
Lesson learned. Hopefully the GOP gets their four years and then we get back to intelligently governing.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Everyone should just ignore the trolls
PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 9,775
December 14 Flag
Yes, they were that bad.
A sexual predator they could not beat.
Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming.
AE
Quote
http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/comment/6384075#Comment_6384075
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
you are just choosing not to listen so you have a reason to post more. your posting is fairly reminiscent of Trump's tweets, to be honest.
www.headstonesband.com
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/hillary-clinton-campaign-donors-post-mortem-232715
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-blames-putins-personal-grudge-against-her-for-election-interference/2016/12/16/12f36250-c3be-11e6-8422-eac61c0ef74d_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_clintonrussia-230pm:homepage/story&utm_term=.ad1c40c379bf
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I don't disagree that this election was unusual, that Comey hurt her, or that Russia may have worked against her. I just don't buy that Comey and Russia were the primary reasons she lost.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"a sexual predator they could not beat".
try to weasel out of it all you want. it's in black and white.
www.headstonesband.com
The Comey letter was the nail in the coffin. She lost the EC by about 77,000 votes. She won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Comey's letter came out a week or so before the election right? That was devastating. The session several months before where he said "no reasonable prosecutor would pursue the case" was a plus...not a minus.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
www.headstonesband.com
Hillary: you know i think people a long time ago made up their minds.