Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
there is a fair to good chance he thought the same about you.
Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
The accused getting a competent defence is one of the cornerstones of our society. Without it, we have kangaroo courts, because the state is always going to be well represented. Your former friend the defence attorney understands that. I suspect you don't really want to live in what ensues once we start removing those sorts of protections, despite what you may think.
And you're fine with female (and presumably male) murderers being raped and otherwise abused in prison. In your words, they earned their spot in prison. What about al the others in prison? What is your threshold for heinousness that deserves sexual assault? Does armed robbery make the cut? Assault with a weapon? Simple assault? What about drug offenders? They all earned their spot in prison, and are all subject to the same conditions and the same prison staff. If you're not okay with someone in on drug charges getting raped, how do you possibly monitor that? Do you trust those guards to make the "right" choice of who to abuse?
Please read my response to Hugh above this one with regards to the second portion of your post.
As to the first part of your post... I played golf with the guy knowing he was defending a f**king mutant... so I'm okay with this component of the relationship (yes... give scumbags their costly day in court). But does that mean he has to go 'all in' on the mutant as well? Can he not 'do his job' without developing a kinship with a f**king woman who murdered her children in horrific fashion (these are some details for context)? Remain objective for f**ks sakes and if you can't... then don't try and convince me that 'she's actually a pretty good person' because she's not.
Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
there is a fair to good chance he thought the same about you.
He very well might have which doesn't concern me in the slightest. It's one thing to try and appeal to my reason that the murderer of her own children needs to be treated fairly... its quite another to try and convince me she's pretty cool.
Edit: the succinct nature of your post seems to suggest something... are you thinking that there might have been a chance this woman could very well surprise me and be decent? Or are you taking a teeny weeny shot at my belief system?
Maybe we should ask Susan Smith's ex husband and father of her dead children what he thinks? Or the families of the nine victims shot in cold blood by Dylann Roof. Those are the people my bleeding liberal heart goes out to.
Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
there is a fair to good chance he thought the same about you.
He very well might have which doesn't concern me in the slightest. It's one thing to try and appeal to my reason that the murderer of her own children needs to be treated fairly... its quite another to try and convince me she's pretty cool.
Edit: the succinct nature of your post seems to suggest something... are you thinking that there might have been a chance this woman could very well surprise me and be decent? Or are you taking a teeny weeny shot at my belief system?
not a shot at all. just saying that line of thinking can and does go both ways.
Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
there is a fair to good chance he thought the same about you.
He very well might have which doesn't concern me in the slightest. It's one thing to try and appeal to my reason that the murderer of her own children needs to be treated fairly... its quite another to try and convince me she's pretty cool.
Edit: the succinct nature of your post seems to suggest something... are you thinking that there might have been a chance this woman could very well surprise me and be decent? Or are you taking a teeny weeny shot at my belief system?
and I highly doubt his intent was to try to convince you how "cool" she was. it's quite possible he actually was commenting on how scary it is how normal she seems.
Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
there is a fair to good chance he thought the same about you.
He very well might have which doesn't concern me in the slightest. It's one thing to try and appeal to my reason that the murderer of her own children needs to be treated fairly... its quite another to try and convince me she's pretty cool.
Edit: the succinct nature of your post seems to suggest something... are you thinking that there might have been a chance this woman could very well surprise me and be decent? Or are you taking a teeny weeny shot at my belief system?
and I highly doubt his intent was to try to convince you how "cool" she was. it's quite possible he actually was commenting on how scary it is how normal she seems.
No. His comment was made to imply she was more decent than everyone who knew of her crime made her out to be.
Why speculate on a specific case based on your preconceived notions of abuse in womens prisons? Look up what happened. Susan Smith was not a victim.
I "speculated" because you seemed to be asking a more general question that invited speculation. Your comment "Elaborate. She loses her TV privileges? Spends a week in solitary? " sounded to me like you were opening up a larger discussion about what can happen to women in prison. It appears I was wrong, though. Oops.
And for those who say that you don't care about what happens to Smith (and presumably others like her) in prison; yes, that's abundantly clear. I think that's unfortunate, though. I think we should all be concerned about how people are treated at every stage of criminal proceedings. Those involved in the legal system, from police through to the court officers through to guards and administrators in custodial facilities through to those working in Corrections in the community all have a responsibility to treat the people they deal with fairly and with basic common decency. If we are okay with prison guards taking advantage of their positions to extort sexual or other favours, or to deal out a little extra unauthorized punishment, then we are going down a really dangerous road. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, I'm not saying that this happened in Smith's case (though I'm also not saying it didn't); I'm talking about all cases.
Some of you are going to make the usual comments about naive lefty do-gooders wanting to give out hugs and lattes to murderers. I'm not naive. Some of my work is in this field and I'm guessing I've spent more time with inmates than all of you frequent commenters put together. Yes, including murderers and sex offenders. The only way I can do my work is to believe that everybody deserves a certain basic common respect as a human being, regardless of what they've done or why. That doesn't erase what they've done, obviously. It also doesn't mean I don't take risk seriously. It just means I'm not in favour of being cavalier about how we treat anybody and ignoring abuses by those in power.
We have a defence lawyer in my city who I golfed with. Defending a horrible person (I'll keep details to a minimum)... I asked him how he managed to get clean at night. He replied, "She's not that bad. You'd be surprised." This woman is WORSE than Smith. I never played with him again. How the f**k do you get to that state of mind?
Yeah, Often, I'm never going to lose sleep over how someone might be treated in a prison when (1)... they've earned their spot their through their own actions and (2)... I spend just a fraction of a second thinking of the final terrifying moments of life for their victims.
Let's not pretend North America prisons are Russian gulags for gawds sakes. Their not Norway country clubs either, but they are far better than some here are making them out to be. Wtf do people want for shitheads like Roof? Don't execute him. Don't make his time unbearable. Don't... ?
there is a fair to good chance he thought the same about you.
He very well might have which doesn't concern me in the slightest. It's one thing to try and appeal to my reason that the murderer of her own children needs to be treated fairly... its quite another to try and convince me she's pretty cool.
Edit: the succinct nature of your post seems to suggest something... are you thinking that there might have been a chance this woman could very well surprise me and be decent? Or are you taking a teeny weeny shot at my belief system?
not a shot at all. just saying that line of thinking can and does go both ways.
You mean like when religious people are flabbergasted that I don't believe in an old man that floats in the clouds?
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
Maybe we should ask Susan Smith's ex husband and father of her dead children what he thinks? Or the families of the nine victims shot in cold blood by Dylann Roof. Those are the people my bleeding liberal heart goes out to.
And what if you asked and found out several were against the death penalty? Would that change things? I've always said that if I ever get killed by someone, I wouldn't want them to be killed or vengeance sought in my name.
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
You are correct that I too often forget about the victims on the other side of the equation. They are certainly worth considering too.
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
Maybe we should ask Susan Smith's ex husband and father of her dead children what he thinks? Or the families of the nine victims shot in cold blood by Dylann Roof. Those are the people my bleeding liberal heart goes out to.
And what if you asked and found out several were against the death penalty? Would that change things? I've always said that if I ever get killed by someone, I wouldn't want them to be killed or vengeance sought in my name.
I'd be pretty ticked if I was murdered. I like my life. Not that it would make any difference as I turned to dust, but I wouldn't stand in the way of (let's even call it this) a bloodthirsty mob looking to exact justice.
Why would I give two shits about the person who erases my existence when I have done nothing to provoke him?
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
You are correct that I too often forget about the victims on the other side of the equation. They are certainly worth considering too.
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
We all have our burdens in life, that is pretty much the sum total of shit I have had to deal with in life, so I have been incredibly lucky in my lot. Smart and healthy...smart, healthy, and beautiful wife...ditto on my son, who could ask for more!?
We will probably never come to agree on this topic, but if we both think about the other side of the argument a little more deeply, then we are both better for it.
The amusing thing is that we both agree that Roof should not be afforded mercy, we just disagree on how to define mercy.
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
You are correct that I too often forget about the victims on the other side of the equation. They are certainly worth considering too.
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
ok, that was sincere. But I question why, as I have mentioned this side of it several times over the years, it takes a personal account from someone you interact with to make you give a shit? not once do I recall a response even close to this when I have brought it up.
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
You are correct that I too often forget about the victims on the other side of the equation. They are certainly worth considering too.
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
ok, that was sincere. But I question why, as I have mentioned this side of it several times over the years, it takes a personal account from someone you interact with to make you give a shit? not once do I recall a response even close to this when I have brought it up.
Growth I guess?
I like you too, Hugh. I'm not deliberately trying to be rough around the edges with you.
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
You are correct that I too often forget about the victims on the other side of the equation. They are certainly worth considering too.
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
We all have our burdens in life, that is pretty much the sum total of shit I have had to deal with in life, so I have been incredibly lucky in my lot. Smart and healthy...smart, healthy, and beautiful wife...ditto on my son, who could ask for more!?
We will probably never come to agree on this topic, but if we both think about the other side of the argument a little more deeply, then we are both better for it.
The amusing thing is that we both agree that Roof should not be afforded mercy, we just disagree on how to define mercy.
No 'beautiful' within your description (ya ugly bastard)!
Life is good. About to go skate skiing. Great day. Enjoy your's too!
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
No we do.
The country club references are to point out the fact that however difficult prison conditions might be... those conditions are far better than decomposing in the ground or staring at photos of your murdered children.
Far better.
Agreed? Thought so. So... let's not concern ourselves too much with people faring far better than their victims. I mean to boot... unlike their victims... they controlled their destiny: they never needed to be in prison- they just needed to not murder their children (or 9 people in a church).
F**k 'em.
Not agreed. Being dead is an end to suffering. Life in prison is a lifetime of suffering.
Do you really want Roof to be beyond the reach of pain?
I don't, put him in a Fed supermax in Colorado where he will be in solitary confinement...the worst torture that humans can survive.
And the survivors experience the loss of their loved ones for a lifetime as well.
You haven't thought this out very well, RG. Here's a choice for you:
1. Lose your child to a sadistic murderer.
2. Live your life in prison.
I'm assuming from your responses prior that you will select 2 because that is the easier option.
Thirty I know you are a good guy and you just post agressively sometimes, so I won't take offense...I have thought it out. For years and years. My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice. I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it. In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition. It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
You are correct that I too often forget about the victims on the other side of the equation. They are certainly worth considering too.
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
We all have our burdens in life, that is pretty much the sum total of shit I have had to deal with in life, so I have been incredibly lucky in my lot. Smart and healthy...smart, healthy, and beautiful wife...ditto on my son, who could ask for more!?
We will probably never come to agree on this topic, but if we both think about the other side of the argument a little more deeply, then we are both better for it.
The amusing thing is that we both agree that Roof should not be afforded mercy, we just disagree on how to define mercy.
No 'beautiful' within your description (ya ugly bastard)!
Life is good. About to go skate skiing. Great day. Enjoy your's too!
Hahaha yes, that was a deliberate omission! I am partying with my buddy home from the Army tonight, woot woot!
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
How so? Do you? What makes you or Hugh any more of an expert than anyone else? Have you read the particulars of the Susan Smith case? It would be pretty silly to say Smith was abused if you've never read what actually happened.
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
How so? Do you? What makes you or Hugh any more of an expert than anyone else? Have you read the particulars of the Susan Smith case? It would be pretty silly to say Smith was abused if you've never read what actually happened.
first, see gambs post a little up the page. second, anyone who says that prisoners have a comfy life or equate prison with a country club.....
One thing this thread has made clear, most of you have no idea what prison is actually like.
No clue.
How so? Do you? What makes you or Hugh any more of an expert than anyone else? Have you read the particulars of the Susan Smith case? It would be pretty silly to say Smith was abused if you've never read what actually happened.
I don't know anything about the Smith case, and I was way behind in the thread so I only skimmed that stuff. My brother was a federal prisoner for close to 10 years, he died in CSP. Nat Geo actually did a documentary on solitary confinement that was filmed at, and about, CSP. I visited him about 10 times and exchanged many letters. I haven't been to prison myself, but I know about his personal experience and I have consumed a fair amount of literature and media on the subject.
Roof, representing himself in the penalty phase, scoffs at psychological disorders calling them 'Jewish inventions'. His best chance at avoiding execution is to latch on to one though.
It will be very interesting to see how he plans on navigating his way through this portion of the trial... not that anyone really cares for his fortunes given what he has done: "Even those who oppose the death penalty on moral grounds, like the Rev. Joseph A. Darby, a presiding elder for the African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, said it would seem bewildering for Mr. Roof to escape capital punishment."
Perhaps I haven't been reading closely enough, but I just discovered today that Roof's current trial is on federal charges of murder (plus other charges), but apparently he also faces 9 state charges of murder which will be tried in state court sometime in the future. Does anyone know why it is that he can be charged and tried for the same events at both the federal and the state level?
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
From what I understand, it's because SC doesn't have a hate crime law, so the feds pursued all of the hate crime charges possible for the murders. He's the first person to be tried both at the state and federal level.
From what I understand, it's because SC doesn't have a hate crime law, so the feds pursued all of the hate crime charges possible for the murders. He's the first person to be tried both at the state and federal level.
We (SC) didn't even give Susan Smith the death penalty for killing her own kids.
That was before I moved down here. But remember hearing about it and thinking it was odd that she didn't get the DP. Not only did she get to live, but got pregnant from a guard in prison.
One thing this state does not lack is horrendous crimes. Susan Smith may be the only rival to dylan roof when it comes to heinous acts committed in this state since slavery.
Donald Henry "Pee Wee" Gaskins, Jr
He has to be the most notorious when it comes to heinous acts in South Carolina. He committed his in the 60s/70s and was executed in the early 90s, so it's understandable how he could be overlooked. The things he did were truly disturbing.
From what I understand, it's because SC doesn't have a hate crime law, so the feds pursued all of the hate crime charges possible for the murders. He's the first person to be tried both at the state and federal level.
Even if South Carolina had hate crime legislation, he could still be tried in both federal and state courts because of the dual sovereignty doctrine. Usually the feds defer to state courts, but the hate crime component is why the feds wanted to try the case. I don't think he's the first person to be tried at both levels though (perhaps the first in SC). I think both McVeigh and Nichols were tried at both levels for the OKC bombing.
We (SC) didn't even give Susan Smith the death penalty for killing her own kids.
That was before I moved down here. But remember hearing about it and thinking it was odd that she didn't get the DP. Not only did she get to live, but got pregnant from a guard in prison.
One thing this state does not lack is horrendous crimes. Susan Smith may be the only rival to dylan roof when it comes to heinous acts committed in this state since slavery.
Donald Henry "Pee Wee" Gaskins, Jr
He has to be the most notorious when it comes to heinous acts in South Carolina. He committed his in the 60s/70s and was executed in the early 90s, so it's understandable how he could be overlooked. The things he did were truly disturbing.
Comments
www.headstonesband.com
As to the first part of your post... I played golf with the guy knowing he was defending a f**king mutant... so I'm okay with this component of the relationship (yes... give scumbags their costly day in court). But does that mean he has to go 'all in' on the mutant as well? Can he not 'do his job' without developing a kinship with a f**king woman who murdered her children in horrific fashion (these are some details for context)? Remain objective for f**ks sakes and if you can't... then don't try and convince me that 'she's actually a pretty good person' because she's not.
Edit: the succinct nature of your post seems to suggest something... are you thinking that there might have been a chance this woman could very well surprise me and be decent? Or are you taking a teeny weeny shot at my belief system?
Can't wait to hear his opening statement.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
I hear you. I'm comfortable where I've come to.
My brother lived and died in solitary confinement in Colorado, he was convicted by the prosecutor who railroaded Timothy Masters, and my Mother was sitting next to me when she got the call that he had passed.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) when a genius' mind slips away from the torture of total isolation, when I visited him 3 weeks before he died, he babbled and cried like Charles Manson with his nuts in a vice.
I know what it looks like (but not how it feels) the moment a Mother learns that her firstborn child is gone from the world.
Given those 2 choices, I would obviously choose the second one. The truth of the matter, which I do not expect you to accept, is that every single person would choose option 2, and every single person would come to regret it.
In no way am I trying to disparage or make light of a parent's grief, it's just that isolation is a powerful psychological torment that can never be gotten past. It's not the same as loss, which is like carrying a wound that always aches, no matter how happy or joyous you are in a given moment. The ability to feel any pleasure or joy becomes an impossibility, life itself is pain, and likely any parent who has gone through it would agree that death is a mercy for their child if that is their condition.
It's a mercy that people like Roof may not deserve.
www.headstonesband.com
I'm sorry, RG, for that part of your past (and current reality).
Why would I give two shits about the person who erases my existence when I have done nothing to provoke him?
We will probably never come to agree on this topic, but if we both think about the other side of the argument a little more deeply, then we are both better for it.
The amusing thing is that we both agree that Roof should not be afforded mercy, we just disagree on how to define mercy.
www.headstonesband.com
I like you too, Hugh. I'm not deliberately trying to be rough around the edges with you.
Life is good. About to go skate skiing. Great day. Enjoy your's too!
we will find a way, we will find our place
www.headstonesband.com
My brother was a federal prisoner for close to 10 years, he died in CSP. Nat Geo actually did a documentary on solitary confinement that was filmed at, and about, CSP.
I visited him about 10 times and exchanged many letters. I haven't been to prison myself, but I know about his personal experience and I have consumed a fair amount of literature and media on the subject.
It will be very interesting to see how he plans on navigating his way through this portion of the trial... not that anyone really cares for his fortunes given what he has done: "Even those who oppose the death penalty on moral grounds, like the Rev. Joseph A. Darby, a presiding elder for the African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, said it would seem bewildering for Mr. Roof to escape capital punishment."
http://nyti.ms/2iTYBsB
This covers it a little:
www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/rundown/dylann-roof-will-face-the-death-penalty-in-charleston-church-shooting-trial
www.headstonesband.com
He has to be the most notorious when it comes to heinous acts in South Carolina. He committed his in the 60s/70s and was executed in the early 90s, so it's understandable how he could be overlooked. The things he did were truly disturbing.
Some simply aren't worth the efforts.