Meanwhile back in Israel

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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,693
    edited November 2023
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 
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  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.


    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,983
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

  • war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    Israel is not an aggressor with its treatment of Palestinians? Again, you post as if Palestinians are treated like Israelis and they’re same-same with regards to everyday life. What planet are you on?
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  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,983
    static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.



    I mentioned the shout at the camera bit because I’ve seen plenty on camera yelling unpleasant things about the Israelis. I get it, war is horrible, but the path to peace is acceptance of the others right to peacefully exist. 

    We all do know this is a proxy war because the semi isolated giant in the region, Iran, would be further isolated by an Israeli Saudi peace deal? 
    It isn’t unreasonable to believe Iran has a lot to do with this?
  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    edited November 2023
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    Israel does not recognize an independent and sovereign Palestinian state.

    No one has sympathy for Hamas I don't know where you keep getting this.
    Post edited by static111 on
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 
    they keep stealing land and building settlements which are illegal under international law. that is example number 1 that israel has no interest in peace, let alone co-existing.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    edited November 2023
    static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.



    I mentioned the shout at the camera bit because I’ve seen plenty on camera yelling unpleasant things about the Israelis. I get it, war is horrible, but the path to peace is acceptance of the others right to peacefully exist. 

    We all do know this is a proxy war because the semi isolated giant in the region, Iran, would be further isolated by an Israeli Saudi peace deal? 
    It isn’t unreasonable to believe Iran has a lot to do with this?
    So why not attack Iran instead of bombing Palestinian civilians?

    Also no hard feelings you have your views I have mine, I'm glad that we can have this conversation even if we disagree on multiple levels.
    Post edited by static111 on
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    is the united states stealing land in canada, displacing those that live there, and building american settlements with american only roads?

    poor comparison.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.


    hamas has the power over the palestinians now. people here on the right blame the palestinians for that. that is the same as the rest of the world blaming all americans for the 40 something percent that voted for him. not all palestinians support hamas.

    people think that hamas is going to be like "our bad" and give up power or something. hamas knows the palestinians can't take back the power by forcing them out, so unfortunately the palestinians are stuck in a no win situation. it doesn't help that biden is declaring unwavering support for israel and that is further dimming any chance for your average palestinian to live in peace.

    i completely agree with the part i bolded.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.



    I mentioned the shout at the camera bit because I’ve seen plenty on camera yelling unpleasant things about the Israelis. I get it, war is horrible, but the path to peace is acceptance of the others right to peacefully exist. 

    We all do know this is a proxy war because the semi isolated giant in the region, Iran, would be further isolated by an Israeli Saudi peace deal? 
    It isn’t unreasonable to believe Iran has a lot to do with this?
    i am not sure what media you are watching, but i have seen plenty of palestinians shouting at the cameras.

    mostly children.

    that are grieving because their home just got bombed and their entire family was killed.

    that is all the shouting at the camera i need to see.

    children should never, ever have to carry the bodies of other children. i've seen plenty of that on tv lately too.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.


    hamas has the power over the palestinians now. people here on the right blame the palestinians for that. that is the same as the rest of the world blaming all americans for the 40 something percent that voted for him. not all palestinians support hamas.

    people think that hamas is going to be like "our bad" and give up power or something. hamas knows the palestinians can't take back the power by forcing them out, so unfortunately the palestinians are stuck in a no win situation. it doesn't help that biden is declaring unwavering support for israel and that is further dimming any chance for your average palestinian to live in peace.

    i completely agree with the part i bolded.
    Would be nice to see the US and Israel train and equip Palestinians that are against Hamas.  An unarmed untrained populace can't rise up against the superior training and firepower available to Hamas.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?
    Hamas took over the leadership of the Gaza Strip correct?  Hamas is a terrorist group, I think a lot of people believe they are culpable for giving Israel the impetus to start military actions.  Expecting Hamas to function reasonably  and accept any responsibility.is just not going to happen  Many people are calling for a cease fire, while not the same as a full surrender, it is a step.  Hard for Palestinian people to shout at the cameras when there is a near complete media blackout, and why would they be saying Israel has a right to exist after what is happening to their land currently as well as a history of Israelis literally kicking people out of their homes since 1948.  

    There is blame on both sides and both sides need to take steps.  The world is lucky that Hamas doesn't have the military capabilities of Israel or even more civilians would be dying needlessly.  At this point though only one side has killed nearly 10,000 civilians with the backing of the US and one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

     I think you maybe confusing peoples current opposition to Israeli strikes on civilians and the complete eradication of Gaza as some sort of endorsement of Hamas.  I don't believe that is the case at all.  I think many of us just believe that there are years of real grievances that the Palestinian people have against the state of Israel and that it is not right to collectively punish the entire population for the actions of a few terrorists.


    hamas has the power over the palestinians now. people here on the right blame the palestinians for that. that is the same as the rest of the world blaming all americans for the 40 something percent that voted for him. not all palestinians support hamas.

    people think that hamas is going to be like "our bad" and give up power or something. hamas knows the palestinians can't take back the power by forcing them out, so unfortunately the palestinians are stuck in a no win situation. it doesn't help that biden is declaring unwavering support for israel and that is further dimming any chance for your average palestinian to live in peace.

    i completely agree with the part i bolded.
    Would be nice to see the US and Israel train and equip Palestinians that are against Hamas.  An unarmed untrained populace can't rise up against the superior training and firepower available to Hamas.
    unfortunately will never happen. bibi has stated there will never, ever be a palestinian state under his watch. that basically kills any chance of helping regular palestinians overthrow hamas.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 34,884


    How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel | CBC News Loaded
    Politics·Analysis

    How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel

    The Israeli leader and Hamas are deadly enemies — and allies in opposing a 2-state solution

    Evan Dyer · CBC News · Posted: Oct 28, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: October 28
    People crouch in the street and cover their heads with their arms
    Israelis take cover as a siren warns of incoming rockets fired from the Gaza Strip during the funeral of the Israeli man Sagiv Ben Svi, killed by Hamas militants while attending a music festival, at a cemetery in Holon, central Israel, on Oct. 26, 2023. (Petros Giannakouris/Associated Press)


    Israelis don't agree on much, especially lately, but polling shows they mostly agree that Prime Minister Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is to blame for leaving Israel unprepared for Hamas's onslaught on October 7.

    The accusations aimed at Netanyahu go beyond merely failing to foresee or prevent the Hamas attack of October 7, however. Many accuse him of deliberately empowering the group for decades as part of a strategy to sabotage a two-state solution based on the principle of land for peace.

    "There's been a lot of criticism of Netanyahu in Israel for instating a policy for many years of strengthening Hamas and keeping Gaza on the brink while weakening the Palestinian Authority," said Mairav Zonszein of the International Crisis Group. "And we've seen that happening very clearly on the ground."

    "(Hamas and Netanyahu) are mutually reinforcing, in the sense that they provide each other with a way to continue to use force and rejectionism as opposed to making sacrifices and compromises in order to reach some kind of resolution," Zonszein told CBC News from Tel Aviv.

    'Keep Hamas alive and kicking'

    This symbiotic relationship between Netanyahu and Hamas has been remarked on for years, by both friends and enemies, hawks and doves.

    Yuval Diskin, former head of Israel's Shin Bet security service, told the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth in 2013 that "if we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas's strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu, since his first term as prime minister."

    In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Israeli Army Radio that Netanyahu's "strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking … even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah."

    The logic underlying this strategy, Barak said, is that "it's easier with Hamas to explain to Israelis that there is no one to sit with and no one to talk to.

    Netanyahu's critics say that Hamas — with its bloodthirsty rhetoric, open antisemitism and stated intention never to share the land — played into the hands of a prime minister who also wanted to be able to tell western governments that Israel has "no partner" for peace.

    Supporting Hamas rule in Gaza, those critics say, allowed Netanyahu to confine the Palestinian Authority to the West Bank and weaken it, dividing the Palestinians into two mutually antagonistic blocs.

    Hamas puts its finger on the scales 

    Netanyahu first came to power in the 1996 election that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist opposed to the Oslo Accords.

    Early polls showed Rabin's successor Shimon Peres comfortably ahead.

    Determined to sabotage Oslo, Hamas embarked on a ruthless suicide bombing campaign that helped Netanyahu pull ahead of Peres and win the election on May 29, 1996.

    Today, some of the same extremists who called for Rabin's death hold power in Netanyahu's government.

    A youthful Ben Gvir shows off a Cadillac hood ornament he claimed to have taken from PM Yitzhak Rabin shortly before the Israeli peacemaker was assassinated Convicted of terrorism charges Ben Gvir is today Israels minister of national security
    A youthful Ben Gvir shows off a Cadillac hood ornament he claimed to have taken from Yitzhak Rabin's car shortly before the Israeli peacemaker was assassinated. Convicted of terrorism charges, Ben Gvir is today Israel's minister of national security. (Screengrab YouTube)

    Just two weeks before Rabin's assassination, a young settler extremist posed for the cameras with a Cadillac hood ornament he said he had stolen from Rabin's car. "Just like we got to this emblem," he said, "we could get to Rabin."

    Today, that young man, Itamar Ben Gvir, is 45 years old and has eight Israeli criminal convictions — including convictions for supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. Once he was rejected by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for his extremist views. Now, Israel's police must answer to him as Benjamin Netanyahu's minister of national security.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israels National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir smile before Netanyahus statement in the Knesset Israels parliament in Jerusalem Tuesday May 23 2023
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel's National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir smile before Netanyahu delivers a statement in the Knesset in Jerusalem on May 23, 2023. (Ohad Zwigenberg/The Associated Press)

    Many analysts believe one of the main goals of the Hamas attack on Israel was to derail the normalization talks underway between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would have left the Palestinians on the sidelines.

    In a remarkable speech last week in Houston, Saudi Prince Turki bin Faisal unleashed on Hamas for its atrocities and obstructionism. But he also had words for Israel.

    "I condemn Hamas for further undermining the Palestinian Authority, as Israel has been doing," said the former Saudi intelligence chief and ambassador to the U.S. "I condemn Hamas for sabotaging the attempt of Saudi Arabia to reach a peaceful resolution to the plight of the Palestinian people.

    "I condemn Israel for funnelling Qatari money to Hamas."

    Prince Turki was referring to money that the Qatar royal family has been sending to Gaza for years, to the tune of about a billion U.S. dollars.

    'Hamas is an asset'

    Netanyahu's hawkish defence minister Avigdor Liberman was the first to report in 2020 that Bibi had dispatched Mossad chief Yossi Cohen and the IDF's officer in charge of Gaza, Herzi Halevi, to Doha to "beg" the Qataris to continue to send money to Hamas.

    "Both Egypt and Qatar are angry with Hamas and planned to cut ties with them. Suddenly Netanyahu appears as the defender of Hamas," the right-wing leader complained.

    A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu's Hamas policy which, he said, marked "the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself."

    Netanyahu's education minister Naftali Bennett also denounced the payments, and also quit.

    WATCH: What would an IDF invasion of Gaza look like?    

    Israel vs. Hamas: A new phase?

    7 days agoDuration 7:02
    2 and half weeks of air strikes; A brief ‘targeted’ incursion; now, a widely expected ground invasion by Israeli forces in to Gaza. What could that look like? CBC News Network spoke with Javed Ali, former senior director for counter terrorism at the national security council, about that, and more.

    The Palestinian Authority's Ahmed Majdalani accused the Qatari envoy of carrying money to Hamas "like a gangster."

    "The PLO did not agree to the deal facilitating the money to Hamas that way," he said.

    After both Bennett and Liberman fell out with Netanyahu, he was defeated by a new government that stopped the cash deliveries to Hamas

    But that government lasted just 18 months. Then Netanyahu returned to power with new, more extreme partners who backed the policy of fostering Hamas to prevent a negotiated peace settlement.

    Netanyahu's current finance minister, West Bank settler Belazel Smotrich, explained the approach to Israel's Knesset channel in 2015: "Hamas is an asset, and (Palestinian Authority leader) Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) is a burden."

    Paying Hamas to weaken Oslo

    On March 12, 2019, Netanyahu defended the Hamas payments to his Likud Party caucus on the grounds that they weakened the pro-Oslo Palestinian Authority, according to the Jerusalem Post:

    "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.

    "The prime minister also said that 'whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for' transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."

    A man at a counter receives a handful of cash
    A Palestinian Hamas government employee waits to receives 60 per cent of their long-overdue salary while others wait in the queue in Gaza City on Nov. 9, 2018. Gaza's Hamas rulers received $15 million from Qatar to help pay the salaries of the territory's civil servants. (Adel Hana/The Associated Press)

    Netanyahu insisted that neither the money nor the construction material given to Hamas would be diverted to military purposes. But today, the IDF finds itself showing how Hamas has done exactly that — by diverting and converting civilian funds and materials to warlike purposes.

    The military tried to warn him at the time, former IDF chief of staff Gadi Eisenkot told the Ma'ariv newspaper. He said Netanyahu acted "in total opposition to the national assessment of the National Security Council, which determined that there was a need to disconnect from the Palestinians and establish two states."

    "We Gaza border residents are paying the price for the lack of policy and the arrogance in facing terror," said Labor Party Knesset member Haim Jelin in 2019.

    Those words would prove to be terribly prescient four years later.

    Haim Jelin is a resident of Kibbutz Be'eri. The small community was devastated by Hamas on October 7. Roughly 130 of its residents were murdered, while others were taken into captivity in Gaza.

    Catch-22 for two-state solution

    Mustafa Barghouti, a physician and member of the PLO Central Council, was a key figure in talks between Hamas and Fatah that sought to unify the Palestinians in a single bloc that could negotiate a two-state peace.

    "Each time we moved toward unity, Netanyahu would launch a campaign claiming that (Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud) Abbas is cooperating with terrorists," Barghouti told CBC News from Ramallah in the West Bank.

    "But each time Netanyahu was asked, 'Why don't you negotiate with Abbas,' he would say, 'I can't negotiate with a Palestinian Authority that doesn't represent all Palestinians.' And so he would use Hamas and this division to justify his absolute objection to any negotiated peace agreement."

    Palestinians mourn a child killed in the Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip during his funeral at a UN-run school in Deir al Balah Gaza Strip Friday Oct 27 2023
    Palestinians mourn a child killed in the Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip during his funeral at a UN-run school in Deir al Balah, Gaza Strip, on Oct. 27, 2023. (Ali Mahmoud/Associated Press)

    Barghouti said the current war has ended U.S. and Israeli hopes of Israel normalizing relations with neighbouring countries without first resolving the Palestinian issue.

    "One of the main results of what has happened is to show that normalization between Israel and some Arab countries does not solve the problem," he said. "It re-established the Palestinian issue as the central issue in this whole knot."

    "Most of the world thought that it could sideline this issue," said Zonszein. "Certainly the U.S. thought that. But now it's clear that it is the key to stability in the region as a whole."

    Biden: U.S. wants two states

    On Wednesday, U.S. President Joe Biden warned Israel to stop attacks by Israeli settlers — a key part of Netanyahu's coalition — on Palestinian civilians. Attacks have spiked this year.

    "They're attacking Palestinians in places that they're entitled to be, and it has to stop," Biden said. "They have to be held accountable."

    Biden also spoke about what the U.S. wants to see after the war.

    "When this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next," he said. "And in our view, it has to be a two-state solution."

    Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu share that vision.

    As Netanyahu has pointed out, Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist and lays claim to all of the land "from the river to the sea."

    And just twelve days before the Hamas massacres in southern Israel, Netanyahu addressed the UN General Assembly, holding a map of what he called "The New Middle East" that showed all of the West Bank and Gaza, as well as East Jerusalem and the Syrian Golan Heights, as parts of an enlarged Israel, with no Palestinian state in sight.

    Damage likely to be lasting

    There is a widespread feeling in Israel that Netanyahu's career is finally ending. A trial on serious corruption charges looms in his future.

    "He's finished. It's over," said Barghouti. "The problem is that the alternatives are no different from him when it comes to any Palestinian issue. They differ with him on other matters, but when it comes to Palestinians, I don't see any peace camp in Israel."

    Hamas and Netanyahu may both prove harder to eliminate than their enemies hope. But even if they leave the scene, the damage to the two-state solution is not easily undone and the current war likely will make things worse, said Zonszein.

    "I'm concerned that the fear and the trauma and shock of what happened is only going to make Israelis more scared of Palestinians, and Palestinians more scared of Israelis," she said. "And you see a lot of Israelis who are arming themselves now with personal firearms because they don't trust that the army and police will be there for them."

    A protester carries a green flag in front of a backdrop of burning tires
    A Palestinian protester with a Hamas headband carries a Hamas flag behind burning tires during clashes following a demonstration in solidarity with the Gaza Strip in the West Bank city of Ramallah on Oct. 27, 2023. (Nasser Nasser/Associated Press)

    Nor will Gazans be easily reconciled to the restoration of a corrupt Palestinian Authority, especially one seen to be riding back to power on an Israeli tank.

    "It's already lost most of its legitimacy and credibility on the street in the West Bank," said Zonszein. "There haven't been elections in 16 years and they don't have the ability to govern even the West Bank, so why would anyone think they have the ability to govern Gaza?"

    Barghouti agreed the current Palestinian Authority and its leadership are at a dead end.

    "No Palestinian leader will ever have legitimacy without free, democratic elections, and that is true whether he governs Gaza or not," he said.

    "But in my opinion, Israel is not interested in a Palestinian government of Gaza."

    ABOUT THE AUTHOR

    Evan Dyer

    Senior Reporter

    Evan Dyer has been a journalist with CBC for 25 years, after an early career as a freelancer in Argentina. He works in the Parliamentary Bureau and can be reached at [email protected].






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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Sunday, Oct. 22

    Today is the 16th day of the conflict. I’m still alive. Gaza is no longer Gaza. When I woke this morning and looked down from my window into Jabalya Camp, I saw dozens of young men removing the rubble from buildings hit by missiles, desperately trying to recover the corpses crushed beneath. For eight days now, we haven’t been able to retrieve the bodies of my wife’s sister, her husband and their son. Hanna phones every morning asking for news.

    Each day requires a survival strategy. Of course, getting bread is the most important task. Families send one of their kids to queue in front of the bakery before sunrise. They have to wait for as long as five hours before they return with their precious cargo.

    Last night, I didn’t get any bread at all. I had assumed that Faraj, our neighbor in Jabalya with whom we share every burden and every grief, was getting it, while he assumed I was. I bought falafel, and when I met him in front of the house, we were embarrassed that all we had to eat were falafel balls. Yousif, a friend from the neighborhood, overheard us and phoned his wife. Minutes later, she appeared with nine small rolls for us.

    After bread, the second thing you have to think about is clean water. Forget chilled water. Just clean enough to drink. In the Press House, where I've spent much of the past 10 days, we’ve had no water at all.

    As electricity is off most of the time, even if you do have water, you can’t pump it to the tanks on top of the buildings. And not everyone can afford to buy bottles of water. In the first few days of the war, the price of a small bottle rose to 10 shekels, about $2.50. I need water for Wissam, who is lying in the hospital, burning up. It’s as if she still feels the heat of the explosion.

    The third thing you want is batteries. The last time Jabalya Camp had electricity was 13 days ago. Having been subject to daily, rolling blackouts for more than a decade (eight hours on, eight off), most people have learned to adapt. The luckiest have backup generators, but most rely on batteries similar to those used in cars. These provide low lighting at night and some internet access, though they can’t power anything like a cooker, fridge or kettle. Charging one battery can take up to five hours.

    This morning, the bakery queues were longer than usual. In front of Shanti Bakery on Wihda Street and Family Bakery between Wihda and Nasser streets, they were more than 500 meters long. According to the head of the Bakeries’ Association, seven bakeries have been hit by Israeli missiles. Two nights ago, the one near my sister Asma’s house was destroyed, along with the lives of most of those queuing outside.

    It’s not just bakeries that are being hit but also other places where people gather. Last night, they hit the souk in Nuseirat Camp, along with two of the camp’s best-known restaurants: Jenin and Aqil. I’d grabbed a sandwich from Aqil on the fifth day of the war. The people who had been queuing there yesterday are now dead.

    During the long nights without electricity or internet, I feel disconnected from the world. I hear explosions and screaming without knowing where they’re coming from. Sometimes, Faraj, Mohammed and I get drawn into guessing where each explosion is and how close it might be. Most of us in Gaza are intimate with this game.

    The only solution is to have a radio set. My dad has three, probably all heirlooms. After much discussion, he agreed to let me use one. We spend our nights fighting for a clear signal.


    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • Gaza becomes ‘a graveyard for children’ as Israel intensifies airstrikes

    KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip — Youssef Sharaf has been trying for more than a week to dig out the bodies of his four children, buried under his destroyed home in Gaza City.

    His parents and his wife were killed in the same attack. So were his three brothers and two sisters, his two uncles and their spouses — and so many of their children.

    “All the families there were civilians who were looking for a simple life,” he told The Washington Post by phone. “We thought we lived in a safe place.”

    Sharaf, 38, was out distributing food to displaced Gazans on Oct. 25 when he got a call about an Israeli strike on his family’s apartment tower. He raced back but it was too late. The intensity of the blast had collapsed the multistory building.

    His three daughters — Malak, 11, Yasmin, 6, and Nour, 3 — and his only son, 10-year-old Malik, were lost beneath the rubble.

    “Can you imagine my pain?” he asked.

    About 30 of his relatives were staying with them, Sharaf said, hoping to find safety in numbers, and in each other. Thirteen of his nieces and nephews were killed — among them Lana, 16, Hala, 11, Jana, 9, Juri, 6, Tuleen, 4, Karim, 2, and 1-year-old Obeida.

    His brother had just welcomed a child after 16 years of trying with his wife. They too were killed.

    “So I carried them in my hands, my brother, his wife, and his son, and buried them together,” he said.

    The Israeli military did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the strike.

    More than 3,700 children have been killed in Gaza since the war began on Oct. 7, according to the Gaza Health Ministry. Families are mourning not just their own losses, but what feels like the loss of an entire generation.

    Children have accounted for 2 out of every 5 civilian deaths in Gaza, according to Jason Lee, Save the Children’s director for the Palestinian territories. That does not include some 1,000 children the group estimates are still trapped under the rubble.

    “We are now in a situation where one child is killed every 10 minutes,” he said.

    More than 9,000 Gazans in total have died so far, the Health Ministry says, in Israel’s fifth and bloodiest war yet with Hamas, the militant group that controls the coastal enclave. The conflict began on Oct. 7, when Hamas militants rampaged through southern Israel, killing more than 1,400 people and taking more than 230 others hostage, including at least a dozen children.

    “There are no winners in a war where thousands of children are killed,” the U.N. children’s rights committee said Wednesday in a statement calling for a cease-fire.

    The Israel Defense Forces says it targets Hamas militants and infrastructure and has safeguards in place to prevent civilian casualties. It has disputed the Gaza Health Ministry’s death toll, which does not distinguish between fighters and civilians. The IDF has accused the extremist group of hiding fighters, weapons, command centers and tunnels in residential areas.

    But in just three weeks of war, the number of children killed in Gaza surpassed the total number killed across all the world’s conflict zones in any year since 2019, the global charity Save the Children saidSunday.

    “Gaza has become a graveyard for children,” UNICEF spokesperson James Elder said at a news briefing Tuesday. “It’s a living hell for everyone else.”

    Most Gazan children have already lived through multiple wars. Nearly half of the 2.3 million people packed into the strip — one of the world’s densest urban areas — are below age 18, according to the United Nations. Most of those born since 2007, when Hamas seized power, have never left Gaza because of an Israeli blockade imposed the same year. The majority have grown up in poverty; few have had regular access to adequate medical care, education or clean water.

    The latest war has underscored just how vulnerable these children are.

    They are crammed into apartment buildings with dozens of relatives, in search of safety, or hiding out in U.N. shelters and schools with thousands of others, sleeping under desks where they are meant to be learning.

    Some displaced children are living on the street or in tents in makeshift camps. Everywhere in Gaza, there is a desperate lack of water, food and medicine. Dehydration and diarrhea, which can be deadly for children, are on the rise.

    And then there are the Israeli airstrikes, thousands and thousands of them, which rain down day and night, from north to south, on Hamas tunnels and hideouts, but also on homes, schools and places of worship.

    When wounded children are rushed to hospitals, there is less and less that doctors can do to save their lives, said Ahmed al-Farra, head of the pediatric department at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, in southern Gaza.

    “The destructive power of the missiles is very strong,” he said of Israeli munitions. Many children arrive from attack sites with gruesome injuries — severed body parts, shrapnel wounds, severe burns and internal bleeding from the force of the blasts, he said.

    Behind Farra, a child wrapped in gauze was suffering from kidney bleeding. In the next bed, a child with a brain bleed had burns all over their body.

    “Ya Allah,” another child shrieked over and over. “Ya Allah.”

    Nasser and Gaza’s largest hospital, al-Shifa, have both moved their maternity wards to make room for the wounded.

    Across three hospitals in different parts of Gaza, doctors told The Post they have never seen children with such horrific injuries.

    “I’ve worked here for more than 25 years and I’ve seen all the wars, but this war is different,” said Hussam Abu Safiya, a doctor at the Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza.

    Israeli has repeatedly ordered the hospital to evacuate, but the medical staff have decided to stay with their patients.

    “We are talking about hundreds of kids who need medical care or they will die in the street,” Abu Safiya said.

    Shahad, 18, had dreamed of having daughters who would “grow up and become my friends.” On Aug. 18, she gave birth to twin daughters, Misk and Masa. Misk was born prematurely and spent her first month in the hospital.

    She had only been home a few weeks when the war started. On the fifth day, Shahad heeded the Israeli military’s evacuation orders, fleeing with her extended family from Gaza City to Nuseirat in the south.

    On Oct. 18, a strike on a neighbor’s house collapsed part of their temporary home. Misk was killed, on the day she turned 2 months old. Shahad lost her sister and cousin as well.

    “There is no safety in this place,” Shahad said, speaking on the condition that she be identified by her first name to protect her security. “All of my dreams became a meaningless mirage.”

    The family moved to another place in Nuseirat. Ten days later, during a more than 30-hour communications blackout in Gaza, an Israeli strike hit a nearby mosque. The blast blew through the surrounding buildings and killed three other children in the family — Lana, 9, Hassan, 8, and Rana, 6 — according to Saadia, an aunt in the family.

    Saadia’s 7-year-old niece, Nouran, was disfigured by shrapnel. “We aspired for Nouran to become a doctor,” she said. “Today, we no longer know how Nouran will face herself, even in the mirror.”

    “Are these the goals of the war?” Saadia asked between tears. “Our children are not numbers. They have a story worth telling.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/02/israel-stikes-gaza-children-victims/

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • Monday, Oct. 23

    Last night was the most violent so far. Some 600 people were killed in attacks on the Strip. Around 11 p.m., I experienced the usual sequence: the screech of a rocket, a flash in the darkness, the sound of an explosion. I was lying on a mattress in the middle of the flat and had almost dozed off when a dark and noxious cloud began filling the street below. I began to cough. The smell was that of ash and burning metal. I counted 12 ambulances heading toward the end of the street.

    I miss real food. Most days, I eat falafel for breakfast and falafel for dinner. Two days ago, I was lucky enough to get some chicken and quickly fried three pieces for Mohammed, Yasser and me. A feast! Every time I eat, I feel that it’s the most delicious meal I’ve ever had. Deep down, I think I’m telling myself this because it might be my last.

    This morning, I was surprised to see the barbershop open. My attempts to enter failed as scores of young men queued outside. Instead, I suggested that my brother Ibrahim cut my hair using his little electric razor. My since-deceased brother Naeem was very good at cutting hair. During the first intifada’s curfews, which lasted as long as 40 days, Naeem would cut hair for the men in the neighborhood.

    Today, I stayed in Jabalya. This meant not visiting Wissam in the hospital and not going to the Press House. Checking in on Wissam is crushing. I guess I’m weaker than I realized. I told myself that to be able to see her tomorrow, I needed to rest today. Besides, I can’t use the car every day.

    There’s no gas left at the petrol stations. Yesterday, I saw the owner of the station at the entrance of Jabalya Camp desperately pleading with a crowd, trying to convince everyone that he had no fuel and that queuing was futile. One man shouted, “How come you’re a petrol station but you have no fuel?”

    The owner angrily replied, “Ask the war.”

    I made my way toward Eisha’s place in the Tel al-Zaatar neighborhood of the camp. Heaps of rubble and half-collapsed buildings lay everywhere. By this stage, I’ve become indifferent to the explosions ripping holes in the city around me. Everyone who dies here dies by sheer bad luck. They just happen to be where the missile strikes at that moment. One small consolation is that when you hear the sound of the rocket, you know it’s not going to hit you. This is a lesson all Gazans learn. When you’re the target, you don’t hear anything; you just die.

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    i don't think anybody is going to convince most of us that israel is doing everything in it's power to bring about a just peace. because it isn't.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 34,884
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,983
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    is the united states stealing land in canada, displacing those that live there, and building american settlements with american only roads?

    poor comparison.


    You are conflating, yet again, Gaza and West Bank. I was discussing HAMAS INVADING AND COMPARING THAT TO THE WAR OF 1812, 

    BUT SINCE YOU WISH TO SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON WEST BANK, PLEASE REBUT THE FOLLOWING FACTS:


    Israel was illegally attacked in 1967 from the West Bank, took control of the land for security reasons, because that land was used upwards of ten times to illegally invade Israel, which has a historical claim to the land since it was theirs for thousands of years, and they  signed multiple peace deals with Palestinian leadership to share this land.

    Are you familiar with any of these facts?

     Do you  understand why the West Bank was used to invade Israel?

    Do you understand how the Palestinians historical use of this land in an aggressive manner?

    Do you understand Palestine was never a sovereign nation?

    somehow you think there is such a thing as international justice that is not biased against certain countries. Using your standards, the entirety of North America should be returned to the First Nations/ Native American population.

    just because you believe you have some sort of moral superiority on this issue does not make it fact.
  • static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    is the united states stealing land in canada, displacing those that live there, and building american settlements with american only roads?

    poor comparison.


    You are conflating, yet again, Gaza and West Bank. I was discussing HAMAS INVADING AND COMPARING THAT TO THE WAR OF 1812, 

    BUT SINCE YOU WISH TO SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON WEST BANK, PLEASE REBUT THE FOLLOWING FACTS:


    Israel was illegally attacked in 1967 from the West Bank, took control of the land for security reasons, because that land was used upwards of ten times to illegally invade Israel, which has a historical claim to the land since it was theirs for thousands of years, and they  signed multiple peace deals with Palestinian leadership to share this land.

    Are you familiar with any of these facts?

     Do you  understand why the West Bank was used to invade Israel?

    Do you understand how the Palestinians historical use of this land in an aggressive manner?

    Do you understand Palestine was never a sovereign nation?

    somehow you think there is such a thing as international justice that is not biased against certain countries. Using your standards, the entirety of North America should be returned to the First Nations/ Native American population.

    just because you believe you have some sort of moral superiority on this issue does not make it fact.
    Since you have all the real facts I have some questions.

    This area of land on a map was labelled and recognized as Palestine before 1948?

    The Israelis hadn't been a majority in the region for hundreds if not a thousand years?

     At the time of the establishment of the state of Israel, Palestinians were in the majority and had been the majority and  living/occupying the land for longer than the US was a country?

    When the state of Israel was established by western powers, Palestinians were forced from their lands homes and other habitations, mosques abandoned etc, to make way for Israeli settlers?

    When Israel was established no Palestinian state was recognized and funded equally and given the same help as the Israelis received?
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 34,884
    Hebrews or israelites WRE NOT THE FIRST AND ONKY PEOPLES ON THE FUCKUNG LAND. 

    A MADE UP N
    BOOK MAKES WILD CLAIMS AS TO "OWNERSHIP"
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,983
    mickeyrat said:
    Hebrews or israelites WRE NOT THE FIRST AND ONKY PEOPLES ON THE FUCKUNG LAND. 

    A MADE UP N
    BOOK MAKES WILD CLAIMS AS TO "OWNERSHIP"
    If u got a quote where I said those words, please share. Otherwise, watch your mouth.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,983
    .static111 said:
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    is the united states stealing land in canada, displacing those that live there, and building american settlements with american only roads?

    poor comparison.


    You are conflating, yet again, Gaza and West Bank. I was discussing HAMAS INVADING AND COMPARING THAT TO THE WAR OF 1812, 

    BUT SINCE YOU WISH TO SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON WEST BANK, PLEASE REBUT THE FOLLOWING FACTS:


    Israel was illegally attacked in 1967 from the West Bank, took control of the land for security reasons, because that land was used upwards of ten times to illegally invade Israel, which has a historical claim to the land since it was theirs for thousands of years, and they  signed multiple peace deals with Palestinian leadership to share this land.

    Are you familiar with any of these facts?

     Do you  understand why the West Bank was used to invade Israel?

    Do you understand how the Palestinians historical use of this land in an aggressive manner?

    Do you understand Palestine was never a sovereign nation?

    somehow you think there is such a thing as international justice that is not biased against certain countries. Using your standards, the entirety of North America should be returned to the First Nations/ Native American population.

    just because you believe you have some sort of moral superiority on this issue does not make it fact.
    Since you have all the real facts I have some questions.

    This area of land on a map was labelled and recognized as Palestine before 1948?

    The Israelis hadn't been a majority in the region for hundreds if not a thousand years?

     At the time of the establishment of the state of Israel, Palestinians were in the majority and had been the majority and  living/occupying the land for longer than the US was a country?

    When the state of Israel was established by western powers, Palestinians were forced from their lands homes and other habitations, mosques abandoned etc, to make way for Israeli settlers?

    When Israel was established no Palestinian state was recognized and funded equally and given the same help as the Israelis received?
    ..
    In 1917 the British were in control of the Ottoman lands and invited in the Jews,  who were almost immediately attacked by the Arabs. But that's besides my point, that Palestine was never a sovereign nation. 

    As the Ottoman power was waning during the 1800s the Saudis began sending immigrants to these lands in an attempt to further expand Muslim domination of lands in this region, as the Levant was a vastly underpopulated region 


    ...


    The Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) was a joint British, French and Arab military administration over Levantine provinces of the former Ottoman Empire between 1917 and 1920, set up on 23 October 1917 following the Sinai and Palestine Campaign and Arab Revolt of World War I.[1] Although it was declared by the British military, who were in control of the region.


  • mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 34,884
    mickeyrat said:
    Hebrews or israelites WRE NOT THE FIRST AND ONKY PEOPLES ON THE FUCKUNG LAND. 

    A MADE UP N
    BOOK MAKES WILD CLAIMS AS TO "OWNERSHIP"
    If u got a quote where I said those words, please share. Otherwise, watch your mouth.

    is that a threat?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 34,884
    interesting perspective here. once exposed to his work, I always appreciate his point of view.

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Separate but equal, eh?

    Nearly one in four of Israel's 1.6 million schoolchildren are educated in a public school system wholly separate from the majority. The children in this parallel school system are Israeli citizens of Palestinian Arab origin. Their schools are a world apart in quality from the public schools serving Israel's majority Jewish population. Often overcrowded and understaffed, poorly built, badly maintained, or simply unavailable, schools for Palestinian Arab children offer fewer facilities and educational opportunities than are offered other Israeli children. This report is about Israel's discrimination against its Palestinian Arab children in guaranteeing the right to education. 

    The Israeli government operates two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children. Discrimination against Palestinian Arab children colors every aspect of the two systems. Education Ministry authorities have acknowledged that the ministry spends less per student in the Arab system than in the Jewish school system. The majority's schools also receive additional state and state-sponsored private funding for school construction and special programs through other government agencies. The gap is enormous--on every criterion measured by Israeli authorities.

    The disparities between the two systems examined in this report are identified in part through a review of official statistics. These findings are tested and complemented by the findings of Human Rights Watch's on-site visits to twenty-six schools in the two systems and our interviews with students, parents, teachers, administrators, and national education authorities.

    Palestinian Arab children attend schools with larger classes and fewer teachers than do those in the Jewish school system, with some children having to travel long distances to reach the nearest school. Arab schools also contrast dramatically with the larger system in their frequent lack of basic learning facilities like libraries, computers, science laboratories, and even recreation space. In no Arab school did we see specialized facilities, such as film editing studios or theater rooms that we saw as a sign of excellence in some of the Jewish schools we visited. Palestinian Arab children with disabilities are particularly marginalized, with special education teachers and facilities often unavailable in the system, despite the highly developed special education programs of the Jewish school system.

    The unavailability of schools for three and four-year-old children in many communities, despite legislation making such schools--and attendance--obligatory, is matched by inadequate kindergarten construction for Palestinian Arab children throughout much of the country, particularly in the Negev. A Bedouin man in a recognized Bedouin town told us, "I have a daughter five years old. I thought last year with [former Education Minister] Yosi Sarid's promise she would go to [a government] preschool, but there were none there."1

    A bar on school construction in some Palestinian Arab communities, in line with government policies pressing Palestinian Arab populations to move out of some areas, imposes enormous hardship on families with children and denies many children their right to an education. Poor school facilities and schools requiring travel over long distances result in children dropping out of the education system altogether at a very high rate.

    Continues at the link:

    https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-01.htm

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    war is horrible. I wish it were over. As far as the suffering people in Gaza -
    Why does the leadership of Gaza bear no responsibility for instigating this war on Oct 7?
    Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
    Why aren’t the Palestinian people shouting at the cameras “we want peace with our neighbors, and Israel has the right to exist peacefully?

    1. this isn't war. it's criminal.
    2. of course they do. but this didn't happen in a vacuum. 
    3. most rational people are calling for that very thing. but israel knows that will never happen. so hey, let's bomb the shit out of civilians that hamas leadership don't give two fucks about, eh?
    4. this is absurd on so many levels. if someone is beating the living shit out of me for 75 years, should the onus be on ME to shout "I just want to be your friend" so that person stops beating the living shit out of me? show me where, anywhere, that Israel's government has wanted to "exist peacefully". They have shown that their version of peace is through total domination. 

    I’ve posted endlessly about the Oslo accords in AMT, that addresses 4. 

    Jews were attacked and murdered immediately after the Balfour declaration in 1917. The British controlled the land and made a determination to invite Jews back to their ancestral homeland. So who again started the violence? Maybe the Jews, maybe the Arabs, if we can figure out what happened specifically around 1917, but at some point they must accept each other to reach peace, or  the violence will not end, whether or not there is a ceasefire to the current mess. The Israelis don’t scream about not formally recognizing Arab nations, only Palestinians do that. 

    If Canada kept invading the US and suffered military defeat over and over, would they continue invading or stop? Did Canada keep at it after 1812, or change their strategy?

    why did Hamas invade on Oct 7? Principally because of the potential Saudi peace deal (which also disputes your 4), but also because they know there is a unique hatred against Israel where they can keep attacking a much stronger nation, and they will get sympathy from the Arab world and some in the liberal west, despite being the aggressors to this conflict.

    is the united states stealing land in canada, displacing those that live there, and building american settlements with american only roads?

    poor comparison.


    You are conflating, yet again, Gaza and West Bank. I was discussing HAMAS INVADING AND COMPARING THAT TO THE WAR OF 1812, 

    BUT SINCE YOU WISH TO SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON WEST BANK, PLEASE REBUT THE FOLLOWING FACTS:


    Israel was illegally attacked in 1967 from the West Bank, took control of the land for security reasons, because that land was used upwards of ten times to illegally invade Israel, which has a historical claim to the land since it was theirs for thousands of years, and they  signed multiple peace deals with Palestinian leadership to share this land.

    Are you familiar with any of these facts?

     Do you  understand why the West Bank was used to invade Israel?

    Do you understand how the Palestinians historical use of this land in an aggressive manner?

    Do you understand Palestine was never a sovereign nation?

    somehow you think there is such a thing as international justice that is not biased against certain countries. Using your standards, the entirety of North America should be returned to the First Nations/ Native American population.

    just because you believe you have some sort of moral superiority on this issue does not make it fact.
    i am not going to waste my time rebutting your facts. it will not make a bit of difference. i have posted hundreds of posts on this topic over the last 14 years and i am not going to rehash it all now simply because you are asking me to. 

    i, as well as most posters on here, DO have moral superiority here. a nuclear power is beating up on a people that do not even have a state or a state military. pretty thuggish way of doing things if you ask me. a nuclear power that is doing everything it can to destabilize the region.  it is very similar to what the us did in the war on terror. 

    there are bad actors on both sides. 

    making peace takes work, it is also the responsibility of the victor to make the peace. not just the vanquished.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 21,994
    edited November 2023
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    Hebrews or israelites WRE NOT THE FIRST AND ONKY PEOPLES ON THE FUCKUNG LAND. 

    A MADE UP N
    BOOK MAKES WILD CLAIMS AS TO "OWNERSHIP"
    If u got a quote where I said those words, please share. Otherwise, watch your mouth.

    is that a threat?
    .
    Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,693
    https://x.com/ryangrim/status/1720088460021899553?s=46

    Must be just another anti-semite or someone who doesn’t have the “proper understanding of the history”. 
    1993 Gimli Sun/Mudfest
    2003 Fargo
    2005 Winnipeg
    2011 Winnipeg
    2014 St. Paul




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