""Since the Obama pullout a vacuum was left behind and the extremists flooded the zone as predicted. As many have said "The US got out of Iraq as hastily as they got into Iraq". ""
Where do you get your news BS44??? This is factually innacurate. Bush signed the withdrawal and Obama sought extension and was denied.
This is not controversial at all. Yes Bush signed the initial SOFA but everyone in their administration knew this was to be renegotiated based on facts on the ground. If there is one thing Bush repeated over and over again is that he would never govern by a certain timeline or withdrawal date. The initial SOFA was for two purposes 1) To signal to Iraqis that Americans would not be occupiers and 2) To not tie the hands of a future administration be it republican or democratic. When Obama took office a very mild re-negotiation did take place with the biggest sticking point being immunity for coalition personnel serving in Iraq. At this point Biden was hailing Iraq as America's greatest success story and very little effort was put into the negotiation. Obama made a campaign promise to end the war and the initial success of the Bush surge made it far to easy to walk away. Obama also is philosophically a lot closer to Drowned. When you start with the premise that America's presence is responsible for the problem's in the middle east then a pullout makes sense. People warned Obama though that the success was premature and that the American presence was necessary for stability but he decided to throw up his own mission accomplished banner and allowed the SOFA to lapse. As predicted things began to deteriorate almost immediately which forced Obama to call ISIS a JV team so as to minimize what was happening. It also forced him in to a more difficult spot with Iran because he now had to rely on Shia militia to hopefully pacify things in the south. "America's greatest success story" collapsed because of the withdrawal.
Not looking for world domination just some isis ass kicking followed by some stability. The surge is the road map so let's get back to business.
Jordan hanging two of their detanees just ups the ante for the ISIS response. I just don't understand the idea that killing is the answer.
and dropping living beings from a helicopter is a sick thought. pretty depraved.
What puzzles me about the ISIS thing is how bad is your life in the western world that you leave it to go to a fuckin scum hole country to fight some sort of war. When they get sick of that place and miss the nice life back here, the government shoud be waiting with a life sentence with no trial. Welcome home fuckhead!
Just goes to show you that you or your parents can leave your home country for a "better" life but the shitty baggage still gets dragged here, that the real population of where you are now really dosen't give a rats ass. Want to fight the war, stay there and fight it.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
the world isn't get worse people. it's the same. it's just that now it's all on video.
Excellent point.
Everything I'm writing below is just stream of consciousness, so I apologize if it makes little or no sense.
This actually made me think... What if military forces were obligated to capture and release footage of their days? It's human nature to define good and bad by our senses, and the emotions they instil in us. In this situation, we have ISIL who go to great lengths to show off their inhumanity (without defining clearly what end they aspire to achieve), whereas American forces go to great lengths to hide it (without defining clearly what end they aspire to achieve). In this sense, we are destined to empathize with American forces, and to misunderstand or neglect what ever messages ISIL and the like try to convey. Those who follow the popular opinion aren't 'sheep' - it just goes against our most basic human instincts to witness a beheading or a genocide and say, hold on, what are the ramifications if I destroy this evil whose purpose I haven't yet discover? I think it's important for us all to remember, on the topic of intervention, that a person or group can die and an idea still live on - only to replace one evil with another down the line.
The video footage releases also demonstrate the deep understanding the leaders of extremist groups have of human emotion: they know that barbaric killings lead to retribution. So they make them as impactful and morally apprehensible as they can, and they attempt to reach as many people as they can. By doing so, leaders of extremist groups force us to question our humanity before lunging ourselves onto the bandwagon, and support intervention. Then, those in the region (who are also human beings affected by their senses) witness foreign forces who are instructed to ignore casualties in lieu of a long game. Those in charge get a selling point to recruit new members, the innocents still get killed, the voices of the innocents who don't are further diminished by a culture of fear, and the lower-ranked soldiers of ISIL and the like remain either scared, or worse, their hatred for intervening powers is solidified. When a lower-ranked soldier of ISIL is consumed with hatred, he or she will blindly obey, until such a point that they've lost sight of their goal, which has been replaced with aspirations for immense destruction. Destruction is only necessary when power is sought, and power becomes the commonality between the soldier rising in rank and the leaders of the organization. Then, if they can demonstrate that they have lost their humanity, they are an ideal candidate for a replacement for a leader, and a new batch of leaders are now able to carry on.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The Panetta vs Panetta article is very fair. There is certainly officials who have agreed with both Panettas. Regardless it shows the two competing philosophies. A President McCain would have stayed with or without an agreement (my guess is he would have gotten one but who knows) and although America would be considered an Evil Occupier there would be far less bloodshed. President Obama thought the invasion was wrong and believes an American presence in the region does more harm then good. He can argue that he had no choice but to pullout but the consequence is still a direct result of a withdrawal that a President McCain would not have done.
""Since the Obama pullout a vacuum was left behind and the extremists flooded the zone as predicted. As many have said "The US got out of Iraq as hastily as they got into Iraq". ""
Where do you get your news BS44??? This is factually innacurate. Bush signed the withdrawal and Obama sought extension and was denied.
This is not controversial at all. Yes Bush signed the initial SOFA but everyone in their administration knew this was to be renegotiated based on facts on the ground. If there is one thing Bush repeated over and over again is that he would never govern by a certain timeline or withdrawal date. The initial SOFA was for two purposes 1) To signal to Iraqis that Americans would not be occupiers and 2) To not tie the hands of a future administration be it republican or democratic. When Obama took office a very mild re-negotiation did take place with the biggest sticking point being immunity for coalition personnel serving in Iraq. At this point Biden was hailing Iraq as America's greatest success story and very little effort was put into the negotiation. Obama made a campaign promise to end the war and the initial success of the Bush surge made it far to easy to walk away. Obama also is philosophically a lot closer to Drowned. When you start with the premise that America's presence is responsible for the problem's in the middle east then a pullout makes sense. People warned Obama though that the success was premature and that the American presence was necessary for stability but he decided to throw up his own mission accomplished banner and allowed the SOFA to lapse. As predicted things began to deteriorate almost immediately which forced Obama to call ISIS a JV team so as to minimize what was happening. It also forced him in to a more difficult spot with Iran because he now had to rely on Shia militia to hopefully pacify things in the south. "America's greatest success story" collapsed because of the withdrawal.
Not looking for world domination just some isis ass kicking followed by some stability. The surge is the road map so let's get back to business.
So when does your plan come to an end when does the conflicts end over there ....
You say far less bloodshed? short term maybe but not long term. Remember this IS in part sectarian/tribal in nature to start.
Alternate opinion on Obama on the other hand, at least in this one instance, he showed that the US will honor its agreements. At least outwardly.
My opinion, whats going on was a foregone conclusion anyway. only a matter of when. Had the Iraqi people that were trained by us stepped up to do their part we may not have seen exactly what we are seeing. Further had Al Bagdadi ( high ranking officer in saddams army?) not broken out of prison, we likely wouldnt have seen what he fomented.perhaps a weaker version still allied with AQ after awalaki(that his name?) died.
A viable way out is for those that LIVE in the region step up to handle their own affairs. This real world game of Risk thats being played will be the death of us all. I keep thinking about that Nostradamus quatrain related to the region. seems we are on that path his scenario suggested.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not so sure if things are worse now then in past. Humans have been doing shitty things to each other since Adam and Eve.
ISIS actions don't cause me to want to burn them alive or throw them out of a plane. Makes me want to understand why humans in general are shitty to each other and come up with solutions. Violence breeds violence. And Fox just got some juicy footage for recruiting exactly as what The Evildoers do. The US burned more Muslims Alive in last 10 years than the Evildoers will be able to do in next 100 years.
Not so sure if things are worse now then in past. Humans have been doing shitty things to each other since Adam and Eve.
ISIS actions don't cause me to want to burn them alive or throw them out of a plane. Makes me want to understand why humans in general are shitty to each other and come up with solutions. Violence breeds violence. And Fox just got some juicy footage for recruiting exactly as what The Evildoers do. The US burned more Muslims Alive in last 10 years than the Evildoers will be able to do in next 100 years.
Peace.
exactly why are we so f'ed up that is the ? i'm pretty sure killing eachother is not the answer .....
I actually don't disagree with you at all Mickeyrat. I just think the people that LIVE there don't have the capacity to deal with it. Unfortunately the most extreme elements are able to take charge far to easily.
Josevolution...there is an end date but this date is results based and not time based. The US is still in Germany and Japan and with the behaviour of Russia right now that continued presence is proven to still be necessary.
This is not something I want. I wish we could ignore the world but unfortunately this is no longer possible. We are in dark and difficult times.
BS, the Europeans should step up on Ukraine, they have means with US supporting politically and economically. Same with Japan. We have navy fleet in pacific so no need to be in Japan. Don't understand why US has to be the worlds police and we subsidizing with our taxes.
Benjs, enjoy reading your thoughtful comments very much which actually make me step back and reassess my own thoughts and position on the matter......
One sentence did stand out to me, and it is probably unfair to use this in isolation and out of the context of what you wrote but: -
In this sense, we are destined to empathize with American forces, and to misunderstand or neglect what ever messages ISIL and the like try to convey
I would like to think the message being given out by ISIL is loud and clear, their aims are as unclear as they could possibly be (unquestionably purposefully), and as such what is there to misunderstand or neglect? Of course I understand your sentiment, but I do not feel we can give the murdering filth any podium or any chance to be heard. They have nothing useful to say, they have proved what they are, and they have seemingly mastered the art of oppression to a degree that we are probably ill equipped to even start to understand. So yes whilst I get your point, I do not think we are being manipulated into hating them, they are creating that bed very very purposefully for themselves to lay in.
Killing the evil imo is the only way to eradicate them, we can only hope that it isn't the west that has to do so. Otherwise undoubtedly we will be have another bunch following in determined to avenge the west and its evil ways because they follow the teachings of a fairytale.
Pd, your "Killing the evil imo is the only way to eradicate them" can also be used as a charter for Isis.
How many innocent civilians have we killed since 2003 in Iraq? How many of them were BURNED by our own bombs? How many innocent Palestinian women and children were murdered while we all sat by and watched the kardashians? And now all of a sudden, we want to save the world. I'm not buying it.
Edit-I forgot to add to the list all the raping "some" of our fucked up soldiers committed against teenage boys over there. Amazing how that goes unanswered.
BS, the Europeans should step up on Ukraine, they have means with US supporting politically and economically. Same with Japan. We have navy fleet in pacific so no need to be in Japan. Don't understand why US has to be the worlds police and we subsidizing with our taxes.
Yes, that is the crux of this problem - the US acting as the world's police force, with mixed motives and mixed results. Sometimes (not always) the reason the other countries don't "step up" is that they disagree with that approach.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
A tough thing for the Iraqi's to overcome is the fear they have lived under for so long (assuming this). I imagine it can be difficult to seek good for yourself when you've lived under a despot for so long. Its all many over there know.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not so sure if things are worse now then in past. Humans have been doing shitty things to each other since Adam and Eve.
ISIS actions don't cause me to want to burn them alive or throw them out of a plane. Makes me want to understand why humans in general are shitty to each other and come up with solutions. Violence breeds violence. And Fox just got some juicy footage for recruiting exactly as what The Evildoers do. The US burned more Muslims Alive in last 10 years than the Evildoers will be able to do in next 100 years.
Not so sure if things are worse now then in past. Humans have been doing shitty things to each other since Adam and Eve.
ISIS actions don't cause me to want to burn them alive or throw them out of a plane. Makes me want to understand why humans in general are shitty to each other and come up with solutions. Violence breeds violence. And Fox just got some juicy footage for recruiting exactly as what The Evildoers do. The US burned more Muslims Alive in last 10 years than the Evildoers will be able to do in next 100 years.
Peace.
There is merit to this post, but I'd like to ask you the following: do you feel that without any interventions, the IS campaign will simply fizzle and peace will ensue in due time?
good point and I struggle with this as well. So go back to understanding human behavior and think having Christians come in and Help some Muslims kill other Muslims is not the answer. Think Saudi's and Jordanians and other humans in region need to lead though just prefer humans just face facts about holy things but that's not popular.
Read headline on CNN this AM. inflammatory language to rile up the masses. Know I pick on fox but CNN just as bad. Afraid the media machine is buttering up the American public to again engage the Evil Doers. Would hope Americans have learned and remember but we'll see.
Thinking defense industry stocks may be good buy folks. The war machine is churning.
Pd, your "Killing the evil imo is the only way to eradicate them" can also be used as a charter for Isis.
How many innocent civilians have we killed since 2003 in Iraq? How many of them were BURNED by our own bombs? How many innocent Palestinian women and children were murdered while we all sat by and watched the kardashians? And now all of a sudden, we want to save the world. I'm not buying it.
Edit-I forgot to add to the list all the raping "some" of our fucked up soldiers committed against teenage boys over there. Amazing how that goes unanswered.
Dude, weren't you advocating throwing ISIS out of helicopters a few pages ago?
Naturally I get your point, but lets try to remain rational. comparing the evil of ISIS to the American forces is a bit of a stretch. Like I say I get where you are going.....
PD no matter the superiority of weapons/forces we will never be able to crush them. And collateral damage (innocents killed) will ensure the continuation of hate. We have this now and our actions partially contributed to creation of ISIS. Oh yeah and our military hardware.
And if anyone is in favor of using ground forces take your ass to recruiter and go.
PD no matter the superiority of weapons/forces we will never be able to crush them. And collateral damage (innocents killed) will ensure the continuation of hate. We have this now and our actions partially contributed to creation of ISIS. Oh yeah and our military hardware.
And if anyone is in favor of using ground forces take your ass to recruiter and go.
Im pretty certain its not that easy. and the continuation of hate can only be stayed by them fixing this 'war' locally. even then its questionable, but that would provide a chance at least.
Comments
This is not controversial at all. Yes Bush signed the initial SOFA but everyone in their administration knew this was to be renegotiated based on facts on the ground. If there is one thing Bush repeated over and over again is that he would never govern by a certain timeline or withdrawal date. The initial SOFA was for two purposes 1) To signal to Iraqis that Americans would not be occupiers and 2) To not tie the hands of a future administration be it republican or democratic. When Obama took office a very mild re-negotiation did take place with the biggest sticking point being immunity for coalition personnel serving in Iraq. At this point Biden was hailing Iraq as America's greatest success story and very little effort was put into the negotiation. Obama made a campaign promise to end the war and the initial success of the Bush surge made it far to easy to walk away. Obama also is philosophically a lot closer to Drowned. When you start with the premise that America's presence is responsible for the problem's in the middle east then a pullout makes sense. People warned Obama though that the success was premature and that the American presence was necessary for stability but he decided to throw up his own mission accomplished banner and allowed the SOFA to lapse. As predicted things began to deteriorate almost immediately which forced Obama to call ISIS a JV team so as to minimize what was happening. It also forced him in to a more difficult spot with Iran because he now had to rely on Shia militia to hopefully pacify things in the south. "America's greatest success story" collapsed because of the withdrawal.
Not looking for world domination just some isis ass kicking followed by some stability. The surge is the road map so let's get back to business.
www.headstonesband.com
Excellent point.
and dropping living beings from a helicopter is a sick thought. pretty depraved.
kinda like ISIS.
www.headstonesband.com
Just goes to show you that you or your parents can leave your home country for a "better" life but the shitty baggage still gets dragged here, that the real population of where you are now really dosen't give a rats ass. Want to fight the war, stay there and fight it.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
Everything I'm writing below is just stream of consciousness, so I apologize if it makes little or no sense.
This actually made me think... What if military forces were obligated to capture and release footage of their days? It's human nature to define good and bad by our senses, and the emotions they instil in us. In this situation, we have ISIL who go to great lengths to show off their inhumanity (without defining clearly what end they aspire to achieve), whereas American forces go to great lengths to hide it (without defining clearly what end they aspire to achieve). In this sense, we are destined to empathize with American forces, and to misunderstand or neglect what ever messages ISIL and the like try to convey. Those who follow the popular opinion aren't 'sheep' - it just goes against our most basic human instincts to witness a beheading or a genocide and say, hold on, what are the ramifications if I destroy this evil whose purpose I haven't yet discover? I think it's important for us all to remember, on the topic of intervention, that a person or group can die and an idea still live on - only to replace one evil with another down the line.
The video footage releases also demonstrate the deep understanding the leaders of extremist groups have of human emotion: they know that barbaric killings lead to retribution. So they make them as impactful and morally apprehensible as they can, and they attempt to reach as many people as they can. By doing so, leaders of extremist groups force us to question our humanity before lunging ourselves onto the bandwagon, and support intervention. Then, those in the region (who are also human beings affected by their senses) witness foreign forces who are instructed to ignore casualties in lieu of a long game. Those in charge get a selling point to recruit new members, the innocents still get killed, the voices of the innocents who don't are further diminished by a culture of fear, and the lower-ranked soldiers of ISIL and the like remain either scared, or worse, their hatred for intervening powers is solidified. When a lower-ranked soldier of ISIL is consumed with hatred, he or she will blindly obey, until such a point that they've lost sight of their goal, which has been replaced with aspirations for immense destruction. Destruction is only necessary when power is sought, and power becomes the commonality between the soldier rising in rank and the leaders of the organization. Then, if they can demonstrate that they have lost their humanity, they are an ideal candidate for a replacement for a leader, and a new batch of leaders are now able to carry on.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Iraq
Like THIS
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/02/panetta_v_panetta_former_defense_secretarys_conflicting_accounts_of_the_iraq_withdrawal/
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The Panetta vs Panetta article is very fair. There is certainly officials who have agreed with both Panettas. Regardless it shows the two competing philosophies. A President McCain would have stayed with or without an agreement (my guess is he would have gotten one but who knows) and although America would be considered an Evil Occupier there would be far less bloodshed. President Obama thought the invasion was wrong and believes an American presence in the region does more harm then good. He can argue that he had no choice but to pullout but the consequence is still a direct result of a withdrawal that a President McCain would not have done.
So when does your plan come to an end when does the conflicts end over there ....
Alternate opinion on Obama on the other hand, at least in this one instance, he showed that the US will honor its agreements. At least outwardly.
My opinion, whats going on was a foregone conclusion anyway. only a matter of when. Had the Iraqi people that were trained by us stepped up to do their part we may not have seen exactly what we are seeing. Further had Al Bagdadi ( high ranking officer in saddams army?) not broken out of prison, we likely wouldnt have seen what he fomented.perhaps a weaker version still allied with AQ after awalaki(that his name?) died.
A viable way out is for those that LIVE in the region step up to handle their own affairs. This real world game of Risk thats being played will be the death of us all. I keep thinking about that Nostradamus quatrain related to the region. seems we are on that path his scenario suggested.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
ISIS actions don't cause me to want to burn them alive or throw them out of a plane. Makes me want to understand why humans in general are shitty to each other and come up with solutions. Violence breeds violence. And Fox just got some juicy footage for recruiting exactly as what The Evildoers do. The US burned more Muslims Alive in last 10 years than the Evildoers will be able to do in next 100 years.
Peace.
exactly why are we so f'ed up that is the ? i'm pretty sure killing eachother is not the answer .....
Josevolution...there is an end date but this date is results based and not time based. The US is still in Germany and Japan and with the behaviour of Russia right now that continued presence is proven to still be necessary.
This is not something I want. I wish we could ignore the world but unfortunately this is no longer possible. We are in dark and difficult times.
One sentence did stand out to me, and it is probably unfair to use this in isolation and out of the context of what you wrote but: -
In this sense, we are destined to empathize with American forces, and to misunderstand or neglect what ever messages ISIL and the like try to convey
I would like to think the message being given out by ISIL is loud and clear, their aims are as unclear as they could possibly be (unquestionably purposefully), and as such what is there to misunderstand or neglect? Of course I understand your sentiment, but I do not feel we can give the murdering filth any podium or any chance to be heard. They have nothing useful to say, they have proved what they are, and they have seemingly mastered the art of oppression to a degree that we are probably ill equipped to even start to understand. So yes whilst I get your point, I do not think we are being manipulated into hating them, they are creating that bed very very purposefully for themselves to lay in.
Killing the evil imo is the only way to eradicate them, we can only hope that it isn't the west that has to do so. Otherwise undoubtedly we will be have another bunch following in determined to avenge the west and its evil ways because they follow the teachings of a fairytale.
How many innocent civilians have we killed since 2003 in Iraq? How many of them were BURNED by our own bombs? How many innocent Palestinian women and children were murdered while we all sat by and watched the kardashians? And now all of a sudden, we want to save the world. I'm not buying it.
Edit-I forgot to add to the list all the raping "some" of our fucked up soldiers committed against teenage boys over there. Amazing how that goes unanswered.
Yes, that is the crux of this problem - the US acting as the world's police force, with mixed motives and mixed results. Sometimes (not always) the reason the other countries don't "step up" is that they disagree with that approach.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
exactly.
www.headstonesband.com
There is merit to this post, but I'd like to ask you the following: do you feel that without any interventions, the IS campaign will simply fizzle and peace will ensue in due time?
good point and I struggle with this as well. So go back to understanding human behavior and think having Christians come in and Help some Muslims kill other Muslims is not the answer. Think Saudi's and Jordanians and other humans in region need to lead though just prefer humans just face facts about holy things but that's not popular.
Thinking defense industry stocks may be good buy folks. The war machine is churning.
Dude, weren't you advocating throwing ISIS out of helicopters a few pages ago?
Naturally I get your point, but lets try to remain rational. comparing the evil of ISIS to the American forces is a bit of a stretch. Like I say I get where you are going.....
if its as easy as crushing them in 3 days, he really could get on and do that. He makes it sound like swatting a fly.
And if anyone is in favor of using ground forces take your ass to recruiter and go.
Im pretty certain its not that easy. and the continuation of hate can only be stayed by them fixing this 'war' locally. even then its questionable, but that would provide a chance at least.
www.headstonesband.com
good question but it seems a better idea than allowing them to continue what they are.
and what are they? sure, they commit some horrific acts. but so do a lot of GOVERNMENTS in Africa. where's the outrage there?
because they don't claim to be muslim. nor do we give a shit about their resources.
www.headstonesband.com