Jordan hangs 2 in response for pilot's burning

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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Are germany and japan not successes?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Germany and Japan were conventional armies led by stable governments fighting a conventional war! I don't know how you, can compare that to an insurgency which calls itself a state to affect legitimacy when it holds none of the powers of a state.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    "I wonder if, at the onset of the Iraq War, you ever might have said "intervention is a fair option but recognize that disaster awaits", as was forecast by several prominent thinkers of the world at the time."

    Yes. I did say that but the US did intervene and opened Pandora's box. None of us can go back in time and reverse that. I just happen to think that once invasion took place the concept of abandonment is worse then the concept of staying. For the US to say "we're going to come in and wreck the place then leave" is way worse on every level then saying we are going to "wreck the place and do everything in our power to make it better". The US wrecked the place and withdrawal now becomes the second big middle finger to the local population even if it makes us all feel better as some kind of repentance for a bad decision. In terms of outcomes I actually agree with rgambs that disaster probably awaits in both scenerios. The difference is whether we will be passive observers or be active in trying to steer this towards a positive result. The world is sleepwalking towards disaster right now and unfortunately what we are doing now or even doing less as some of you advocate is not going to cut it. I wish it weren't the case but this is where we are.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Or, the US can let them take care of it on there own, WITHOUT meddling in. Without arming IS like McCain wants to do. Jordan wants to send ground troops, so be it. But let's not send our own soldiers in.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    "Naturally, someone brings up Vietnam and you opt to differentiate the scenario of 'then' vs. 'now': probably because Vietnam was the living proof that pacifism can "win" a "war"."

    Not sure what this means. Vietnam was living proof that pacifism can win a war? Did the North win through pacifism? The US withdrew and the North annhililated it's enemies. Look at South Korea...it is the way it is because of the US presence.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,391
    BS44325 wrote: »
    "Naturally, someone brings up Vietnam and you opt to differentiate the scenario of 'then' vs. 'now': probably because Vietnam was the living proof that pacifism can "win" a "war"."

    Not sure what this means. Vietnam was living proof that pacifism can win a war? Did the North win through pacifism? The US withdrew and the North annhililated it's enemies. Look at South Korea...it is the way it is because of the US presence.

    And was the US withdrawal not a pacification attempt which lead to local parties fighting it out themselves and bringing about stability eventually?
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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    No. I'm not sure leaving the South Vietnamese to the slaughter would be considered a pacification attempt. It's a decision stating that this battle in the fight against communism is failing and that it should be fought in a different arena. Nixon goes to China. US arms the mujuhadeen. US funds fighting against the Sadinistas. US spends heavily on missile defense etc. all while maintaining a permanent presence in Germany and Japan. Vietnam was one battlefield in a prolonged global war until the fall of the berlin wall. A Cost vs Benefit analysis of vietnam showed it to be a war worth ending but never was it considered a pacification attempt.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    Vietnam was not a war, it was a policing action. We still think of ourselves as world police. What gives us that right? Why do we keep sticking our noses into other peoples business when we haven't solved all of our won problems? It's a control issue on a massive scale. Like any personality disorder, the more we do it, the worse our condition becomes.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    "What gives us that right?"

    It's not about "right" it's about duty. World peace is a wonderful ideal but it is not man's natural state. If we don't maintain order then chaos reigns. Unfortunate but true.

    (Ha...i said duty)
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Vietnam was a war. Ask a Vietnam vet if he considered it a police action.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    edited February 2015
    BS: How is it our "duty" Who made it our duty? That's a control issue the US has, not something mandated by God. It's a massive personality disorder and we are deluded in thinking we can control the world.

    Last 12, I know plenty of Vietnam vets. I came within a few weeks of being drafted myself just as the "war" ended. Many of those guys still ask "Why the hell were we there?" But OK, call it a war. No point in arguing over semantics. I think we can all (or almost all) agree that conflict was a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

    Also, I won't argue with anyone who believes world peace is unattainable. That's just too self defeating and unproductive. As for "maintaining order"- we never will do that, not for long anyway- that has never lasted, never will. Until we learn to leave peacefully and productively, we will only make matters worse. History has proven that. We will go the way of all ruling empires. Greece, Rome, Great Britain, U.S.A. It's all right there in history. I'm probably not going to convince anyone of that am I, but there it is. Peace!

    PLEASE NOTE: Where I've made mention of a personality disorder I am using the term somewhat metaphorically to refer to a collective, not an individual. That is not meant to be an individual attack on any one person here or elsewhere. It is a generalization.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    edited February 2015
    BS yes WWII worked out okay. I am though convinced that having a Christian nation go into a Muslim culture and kill for perceived good will never work. And for every human killed due to US action there will be 20 that will rise up against us. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi and having your brother or uncle killed due to US munitions. The stared goal of removing the bad guys is lost. We the US or western nations will not succeed, this has happened time and time again.

    There is a slim opportunity to make this bit better by having Jordanians and other nations address ISIS. Our troops and military action will kill this opportunity.

    Do though recognize the money driving our military doesn't care as military intervention will protect the oil fields along with keeping the war industry profitable.
    Post edited by callen on
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  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Another fine post by Callen
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    callen wrote: »
    BS yes WWII worked out okay. I am though convinced that having a Christian nation go into a Muslim culture and kill for perceived good will never work. And for every human killed due to US action there will be 20 that will rise up against us. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi and having your brother or uncle killed due to US munitions. The stared goal of removing the bad guys is lost. We the US or western nations will not succeed, this has happened time and time again.

    There is a slim opportunity to make this bit better by having Jordanians and other nations address ISIS. Our troops and military action will kill this opportunity.

    Do though recognize the money driving our military doesn't care as military intervention will protect the oil fields along with keeping the war industry profitable.

    I'll never forget the pained look on the father/grandfather in Farenheit 9-11as he ran by the US military caravan clutching the limp and lifeless body of a young boy (presumably a son or grandson).

    It was that moment when I 'completely' understood the rage many of the Iraqi people had towards US forces. If I spent my days ducking missiles and pulling relatives out from rubble, I would likely be looking to get my hands on the people responsible for the upheaval.

    I don't have the answer to the current problem that has developed, but I agree with you here that even if IS was eradicated, a new hostile faction would present itself given the deep resentment many are harboring. It's an unwinable situation.

    If Jordan asserts itself in this current struggle, it would be wise to allow them while taking steps to bail out. How long does the US plan on occupying the area? How long can it before all Hell breaks loose?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    All hell has broken loose. I wish Jordan the best of luck but there is a good chance that their Kingdom will fall to the Islamists while we twiddle our thumbs.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Ya because the US is gonna give jordan a couple BILLION dollars to watch the kingdom fall.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,767
    Oh THAT will not be allowed to happen. Stable relationship with our little mouthy brother right next door WILL BE UPHELD.
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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited February 2015
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/02/08/jordan-islamic-state-support/22988539/

    Islamic extremism is ascendant. If we stay on the path we are currently on then it is only a matter of time.
    Post edited by BS44325 on
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    BS, some people would say something like, "so what?" American greed is ascendant, obesity is ascendant, war spending is ascendant...yada yada yada. If we keep on the current path it is only a matter of time till we will obliterate our species, should they bomb us for it?

    The question you avoid is what gives us the right to tell the other side of the world how to live?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    I have not avoided it. Nothing gives us the right. We can either choose to insert ourselves into the horror or we can let it proceed. But make no mistake it will proceed.

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