Jordan hangs 2 in response for pilot's burning

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  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,036
    Perhaps the problem solves itself.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/02/isis_s_atrocities_will_destroy_it_the_islamic_state_s_murder_of_the_jordanian.html
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    rgambs wrote: »
    BS44:
    "All decisions in life should be made on a risk/costs vs benefit analysis. No decision comes without a risk/cost. Only one of these will actually solve the problem while providing security for a local population to establish it's own governance. Victory isn't in the killing. Victory is in the security. If an ISIS member decides he wants to fire upon a security force than that force can fire back. I prefer captured members be placed in guantanamo but they can be dropped out of the helicopters if for some reason you think that is a more humane approach."

    "Solve the problem" "Victory is in the security"
    Which major terrorist orgs have we eliminated so far? Where do they have security? We have put troops on the ground and the Taliban and Al-Qaida are still operating. At best we shuffle them off to another piece of ground like Pakistan or Lebanon where they recruit new followers, and we spend thousands of , lives and billions of dollars in the process.

    Things were looking good in 2009. Security was being achieved. Then came withdrawal. The job was never finished rgambs. I believe in going all out with a long-term presence or doing nothing. Everything else is just a waste.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Maybe we can send Rambo and chuck Norris
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    Obama wants us to be sympathetic with ISIS by reminding us that Christians wrought havoc as far back as 730 years ago? Did he have Weedies for breakfast?

    At the Washington Prayer Breakfast the day before, Obama noted that all religions had violent histories. Notably, he equated the Islamic State (also known as ISIS or ISIL) militants in the Middle East to the medieval-era Christian Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition that targeted non-believers.

    "Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ," Obama said. "And in our home country, slavery, and Jim Crow, all too often was justified in the name of Christ."

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-freaking-out-after-obama-compared-isis-to-the-crusades-2015-2#ixzz3QzqPdHT8

    He forgot to mention that everyone also thought the world was flat and that the moon was made out of cheese. Sheesh ....
    Be Excellent To Each Other
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  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,758
    but he's right. he's not excusing it. he's just stating the fact that all our ancestors were like this. you cannot use the evolution of scientific knowledge as a basis for excusing the behavior of the time.
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    "Things were looking good in 2009. Security was being achieved. Then came withdrawal. The job was never finished rgambs. I believe in going all out with a long-term presence or doing nothing. Everything else is just a waste."

    So I ask, where does it end? You are the one who made the defense of our bases in Germany and Japan, just because of some weak posturing by Russia so I ask, where does it end?
    "I believe in going all out with a long-term presence or doing nothing. Everything else is just a waste."
    Should we just put a base and ground troops in every country with civil strife? Why not just impose a US led hegemony on the whole world, that would be the going all out with a long term presence solution.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,391
    pdalowsky wrote: »
    Benjs, enjoy reading your thoughtful comments very much which actually make me step back and reassess my own thoughts and position on the matter......

    One sentence did stand out to me, and it is probably unfair to use this in isolation and out of the context of what you wrote but: -

    In this sense, we are destined to empathize with American forces, and to misunderstand or neglect what ever messages ISIL and the like try to convey

    I would like to think the message being given out by ISIL is loud and clear, their aims are as unclear as they could possibly be (unquestionably purposefully), and as such what is there to misunderstand or neglect? Of course I understand your sentiment, but I do not feel we can give the murdering filth any podium or any chance to be heard. They have nothing useful to say, they have proved what they are, and they have seemingly mastered the art of oppression to a degree that we are probably ill equipped to even start to understand. So yes whilst I get your point, I do not think we are being manipulated into hating them, they are creating that bed very very purposefully for themselves to lay in.

    Killing the evil imo is the only way to eradicate them, we can only hope that it isn't the west that has to do so. Otherwise undoubtedly we will be have another bunch following in determined to avenge the west and its evil ways because they follow the teachings of a fairytale.

    pdalowsky, thanks so much for your kind words, but I just soak up what this fascinating and intelligent community (yourself included, of course) has to say and speak my mind if something sticks out at me.

    In retrospect, I absolutely agree with you: the misunderstanding or neglect of ISIL's messages are brought upon by the extremist groups themselves and their purposeful ambiguity. I'm guessing that when recruiting by logic (instead of by fear - which who really knows what the ratio is), they propagate noble sentiments and clear answers about aims and aspirations: but to everyone else - nothing clear. This would still resonate as majorly contrasting with the first part of my statement (empathy for American military forces).
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    paulonious wrote: »
    but he's right. he's not excusing it. he's just stating the fact that all our ancestors were like this. you cannot use the evolution of scientific knowledge as a basis for excusing the behavior of the time.
    He told everyone to get off their high horse.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    "He told everyone to get off their high horse."

    Lots of folks need to!
    It's not excusing what they do, or even explaining it, it is simply recognizing that this is not the new and terrible source of evil that many are claiming it to be.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,391
    rgambs wrote: »
    "Things were looking good in 2009. Security was being achieved. Then came withdrawal. The job was never finished rgambs. I believe in going all out with a long-term presence or doing nothing. Everything else is just a waste."

    So I ask, where does it end? You are the one who made the defense of our bases in Germany and Japan, just because of some weak posturing by Russia so I ask, where does it end?
    "I believe in going all out with a long-term presence or doing nothing. Everything else is just a waste."
    Should we just put a base and ground troops in every country with civil strife? Why not just impose a US led hegemony on the whole world, that would be the going all out with a long term presence solution.

    In addition to this, BS posits that a successful intervention in this situation would have required a commitment to stay in Iraq until stability arrives, and that withdrawal was the flaw. At the inception of the intervention plan, what right does the POTUS have to sign off on such an affair with an undefined end date, when he or she can't guarantee that stability will come in less than eight years (maximum POTUS presidency), and can't guarantee that his successor will commit to stay in until stability magically sweeps the nation? That seems reckless and irresponsible to me.

    As well, although BS has claimed that the SOFA was put in place by Bush so as not to tie a successor down, clearly Obama was damned to either disappoint the citizens of the USA who were reasonably upset by witnessing an outrageously expensive and unfounded war by leaving troops in Iraq, or to (in BS's eyes) fail in Iraq by retreating and leaving it in a state of disrepair.

    At the end of the day, I'm left with one overwhelming sentiment in my head: mind your own fucking business, America.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    We don't even have to go back 800 years. Just go back to 2003.
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Amen to your last statement Ben, and amen to your BB.

    We went in to "remove a despot" and made things exponentially worse for the average cotizen than they ever would have been. How dare we?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    BS44325 wrote: »
    Yes Gimme they are actually an immediate threat to me.
    josevolution wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    Not so sure if things are worse now then in past. Humans have been doing shitty things to each other since Adam and Eve.

    ISIS actions don't cause me to want to burn them alive or throw them out of a plane. Makes me want to understand why humans in general are shitty to each other and come up with solutions. Violence breeds violence. And Fox just got some juicy footage for recruiting exactly as what The Evildoers do. The US burned more Muslims Alive in last 10 years than the Evildoers will be able to do in next 100 years.

    Peace.

    exactly why are we so f'ed up that is the ? i'm pretty sure killing eachother is not the answer .....

    Exactly.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,758
    Jason P wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    but he's right. he's not excusing it. he's just stating the fact that all our ancestors were like this. you cannot use the evolution of scientific knowledge as a basis for excusing the behavior of the time.
    He told everyone to get off their high horse.

    yes, and that was in reference to people in the west thinking that they are "above" certain behaviors, when, history shows, we are not. maybe we are NOW, but that's of little import. and actually, it was in very recent history that the US had legal slavery. slaves were beaten, tortured, raped, killed, etc. and it was ACCEPTED.

    the best, and sometimes, only way to defeat an enemy is to understand him. get in his head and figure out why he does what he does. well, we used to do the same fuckin' things. shouldn't be too difficult to figure out then, should it? but killing him will only give his brother/friend/nephew/neighbour cause to rise up and avenge his death.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    paulonious wrote: »
    Jason P wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    but he's right. he's not excusing it. he's just stating the fact that all our ancestors were like this. you cannot use the evolution of scientific knowledge as a basis for excusing the behavior of the time.
    He told everyone to get off their high horse.

    yes, and that was in reference to people in the west thinking that they are "above" certain behaviors, when, history shows, we are not. maybe we are NOW, but that's of little import. and actually, it was in very recent history that the US had legal slavery. slaves were beaten, tortured, raped, killed, etc. and it was ACCEPTED.

    the best, and sometimes, only way to defeat an enemy is to understand him. get in his head and figure out why he does what he does. well, we used to do the same fuckin' things. shouldn't be too difficult to figure out then, should it? but killing him will only give his brother/friend/nephew/neighbour cause to rise up and avenge his death.
    Key word is "was". Thankfully we continue to evolve.

    I don't think we should be getting off the high horse. I think they should be trying to climb up to the same saddle.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
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  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    badbrains wrote: »
    We don't even have to go back 800 years. Just go back to 2003.

    Or even 1996 when the Taliban invaded Afghanistan. Not going to defend Iraq, but it wasn't a religious war.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    And why is Obama, who has tried as hard as possible with distancing Islam with ISIS in the same sentence making this point anyway? He doesn't want us to judge Islam with ISIS, but he wants us to judge ourselves for the Crusade? At a national prayer breakfast?

    Just very strange.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,758
    Jason P wrote: »
    And why is Obama, who has tried as hard as possible with distancing Islam with ISIS in the same sentence making this point anyway? He doesn't want us to judge Islam with ISIS, but he wants us to judge ourselves for the Crusade? At a national prayer breakfast?

    Just very strange.

    admittedly, it surprised me. but I still think it's an interesting point to make.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    paulonious wrote: »
    Jason P wrote: »
    And why is Obama, who has tried as hard as possible with distancing Islam with ISIS in the same sentence making this point anyway? He doesn't want us to judge Islam with ISIS, but he wants us to judge ourselves for the Crusade? At a national prayer breakfast?

    Just very strange.

    admittedly, it surprised me. but I still think it's an interesting point to make.

    Matter of opinion aside, me thinks i will blow the dust off of my Kingdom of Heaven bluray this weekend.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    BS44325 wrote: »
    So the options provided here so far are 1) Ground troops and long term presence 2) Empowering Assad 3) Throwing ISIS members from helicopters 4) Nothing.

    All decisions in life should be made on a risk/costs vs benefit analysis. No decision comes without a risk/cost. Only one of these will actually solve the problem while providing security for a local population to establish it's own governance. Victory isn't in the killing. Victory is in the security. If an ISIS member decides he wants to fire upon a security force than that force can fire back. I prefer captured members be placed in guantanamo but they can be dropped out of the helicopters if for some reason you think that is a more humane approach.

    You forgot about dropping ISIS detainees from a plane at 4,000 feet.

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