Enhanced Interrogation Techniques and Torturing Some Folks Memos

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  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    edited December 2014
    badbrains said:

    This is brilliant, look at the amount to, clever:

    http://boingboing.net/2014/12/15/skinny-puppy-invoices-us-milit.html

    Industrial band Skinny Puppy sent a $666,000 invoice to US Department of Defense for allegedly using its music to torture prisoners in Guantanamo Bay.

    “We sent them an invoice for our musical services considering they had gone ahead and used our music without our knowledge and used it as an actual weapon against somebody,” Skinny Puppy's Cevin Key told CTV News.“I wouldn’t want to be subjected to any overly loud music for six to 12 hours at a time without a break."

    Above, Skinny Puppy's "Dig It" from their 1986 album, Mind: The Perpetual Intercourse.

    Last time I checked, a CD costs about $15. Did the cia illegally download their CD?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,369
    From The New Yorker (satire):
    http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/cheney-calls-international-ban-torture-reports

    “Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.”
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    I like Skinny Puppy
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    edited December 2014
    rr165892 wrote: »
    As always you bring up many thought provoking well thought out questions.I think I'm trying to figure out why I feel the way I do about this subject.I know I don't want innocent people tormented,tortured or detained without cause,and do I agree with what is considered torture.I also want and think we need a strong clandestine intelligence gathering system.And we should go to great lengths to protect our interests.But at what cost?Will it bite us in the ass later?
    So I find myself at a bit of crossroads on this topic.The Muddy Waters of which you speak may be in my head on this one.
    rr165892 wrote: »
    Our is The US and her Close allies (The west).<br />
    Interests are safe guarding our people home and away.And protecting our Buisness/financial interests globally.
    JC already called you on this - and your reply verifies it:
    The bolded sentence in the first post, and your clarification, is where you cross the line from supporter of humanitarianism, with a wish for safety and security for your own people, to become a supporter of global capitalist imperialism, who puts money above the interests of subject nations and the lives of it's inhabitants.
    What would happen if a foreign military decided to protect it's people and it's business interests on American soil? What gives the US the right to do so? Why do some people have such a hard time with empathy? Can you never put yourself in another's shoes? Pure exceptionalism....but some just can't see that.....or maybe they do see it, and these conversations are just hot air meant to (again) muddy the waters and absolve guilt or paint a pretty picture....because just saying what they really think would make them look greedy and overly self-interested? not sure.


  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Drowned Out wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    As always you bring up many thought provoking well thought out questions.I think I'm trying to figure out why I feel the way I do about this subject.I know I don't want innocent people tormented,tortured or detained without cause,and do I agree with what is considered torture.I also want and think we need a strong clandestine intelligence gathering system.And we should go to great lengths to protect our interests.But at what cost?Will it bite us in the ass later?
    So I find myself at a bit of crossroads on this topic.The Muddy Waters of which you speak may be in my head on this one.
    rr165892 wrote: »
    Our is The US and her Close allies (The west).<br />
    Interests are safe guarding our people home and away.And protecting our Buisness/financial interests globally.
    JC already called you on this - and your reply verifies it:
    The bolded sentence in the first post, and your clarification, is where you cross the line from supporter of humanitarianism, with a wish for safety and security for your own people, to become a supporter of global capitalist imperialism, who puts money above the interests of subject nations and the lives of it's inhabitants.
    What would happen if a foreign military decided to protect it's people and it's business interests on American soil? What gives the US the right to do so? Why do some people have such a hard time with empathy? Can you never put yourself in another's shoes? Pure exceptionalism....but some just can't see that.....or maybe they do see it, and these conversations are just hot air meant to (again) muddy the waters and absolve guilt or paint a pretty picture....because just saying what they really think would make them look greedy and overly self-interested? not sure.

    Bold the whole thought.Im asking a question.dont just pull out half of it.
    And responding to one.
    I don't think wanting to protect my fellow country men from terrorist attacks is being self interested.And I don't agree with the accusation that one cannot support humanitarianism and want safety for our people as well.Thats a very narrow view.
    And Drowned no ,another military conducting any operation on American soil would not be welcome.But you ask what gives us the right?Well,some of these nations suck many billions of dollars from uncle SAMs generous tit.As long as the hand is out then that is what allows us access.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    So basically ones a pimp and the others a whore.
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    I notice you dropped the business interest angle from your response. Why? Doesn't fit your narrative?

    I bolded the one sentence because as stated, it's where you cross the line. Protecting your countrymen from terrorism does not excuse military intervention in a sovereign state. How do other nations handle these threats? Diplomacy, evacuations, etc. we use humanitarianism to implement policies and actions that inevitably benefit our business communities. Every time. If humanitarianism was the true driving factor, we would have military interventions in a lot of places we don't now.
    And since when does giving aid give us 'access' as you call it? That kinda proves my point - you view your humanitarianism with strings. And think it's ok to do what you want as a result.
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Drowned I didn't mention the buisness angle again because it is a by product of what I already stated.Right or wrong it comes with it.its a given.
    As for access for aid. Yeah it comes with strings in many parts of the world. Not all military based.some commercially based, some just straight up humanitarian stuff.look it's not a perfect system.But USA is without a doubt the most benevolent,Philanthropic nation on earth.Again we are not perfect in both action and intention.But damn if we ain't always there to help.
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    badbrains wrote: »
    So basically ones a pimp and the others a whore.

    And switch up positions constantly
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    edited December 2014
    rr165892 wrote: »
    Drowned I didn't mention the buisness angle again because it is a by product of what I already stated.Right or wrong it comes with it.its a given.
    As for access for aid. Yeah it comes with strings in many parts of the world. Not all military based.some commercially based, some just straight up humanitarian stuff.look it's not a perfect system.But USA is without a doubt the most benevolent,Philanthropic nation on earth.Again we are not perfect in both action and intention.But damn if we ain't always there to help.

    We are ALWAYS there to help.

    Even if we created the disaster.
    Post edited by Last-12-Exit on
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Last-12-Exit wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    Drowned I didn't mention the buisness angle again because it is a by product of what I already stated.Right or wrong it comes with it.its a given.
    As for access for aid. Yeah it comes with strings in many parts of the world. Not all military based.some commercially based, some just straight up humanitarian stuff.look it's not a perfect system.But USA is without a doubt the most benevolent,Philanthropic nation on earth.Again we are not perfect in both action and intention.But damn if we ain't always there to help.

    We are ALWAYS there to help.

    Even if we created the disaster.

    Exactly Scott!
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    rr165892 wrote: »
    Drowned I didn't mention the buisness angle again because it is a by product of what I already stated.Right or wrong it comes with it.its a given.
    As for access for aid. Yeah it comes with strings in many parts of the world. Not all military based.some commercially based, some just straight up humanitarian stuff.look it's not a perfect system.But USA is without a doubt the most benevolent,Philanthropic nation on earth.Again we are not perfect in both action and intention.But damn if we ain't always there to help.
    This isn't chicken or egg.... I'm telling you.....business is not a byproduct of charity, nor intervention. It's the other way around. If you think capitalism is driven by humanitarianism....well, I've got a bridge to sell you.
    Still, there is no denying that the US is very charitable! I think your low taxes might skew the numbers a bit when it comes to charity per capita (most of you guys would shit yer pants if you saw what your wage looked like after deductions in Canada), but of course I recognize the US as philanthropic. Still, the benefits of that aid is up for debate. You see a lot of hype when westerners are filling sand bags in a flood zone, or doctors are helping kids....rightly so.
    But I don't think that kind of aid is the typical aid flowing out of the country. Aid from some of th bigger NGO's is often set up a covert political funding. Even aid from missionary charities can have ulterior motives - working on behalf of business interests. They've been caught doing this in central/south America a few times. The most obvious example of how aid is NOT aid - is 'development aid' from western-controlled bankers. This is NOT a country (read: a country's people), suckling off uncle sam's tit! It is not normally some poor nation approaching the US with their hand out. It is usually Western businessmen approaching the government of a poor country with a business proposal. The corrupt government accepts it (usually with lined pockets), knowing full well it will almost exclusively benefit the upper class of their country - with often devastating results amongst the poor. You want to increase your GDP by 10% next year? Build a hydro-electric plant....with our contractors....at interest. That plant will only improve the lives of people with the infrastructure to use it, obviously. The profits will mainly be kept by the contractors and bankers who pushed the plan, and the people who approved it. ....And it will displace 10,000 indigenous people. Yet in the west, it's promoted as US companies working to improve lives in the 3rd world. And this is the kind of shit that we use to justify military might to 'protect our interests'? When those locals start fire bombing the US contractors who are there to bulldoze their land, destroy their livelihoods....we send in armies or fund mercenaries to kill them? Cause this shit happens all the time, and it's what you're defending. anyway, I'm ranting and off topic now.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,102
    callen wrote: »
    The USA has No moral standing over any other countries/societies. We are Evildoers. <br />
    <br />
    Might as well just drop the charade.
    exactly.

    could not have said it better.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Drowned Out wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    Drowned I didn't mention the buisness angle again because it is a by product of what I already stated.Right or wrong it comes with it.its a given.
    As for access for aid. Yeah it comes with strings in many parts of the world. Not all military based.some commercially based, some just straight up humanitarian stuff.look it's not a perfect system.But USA is without a doubt the most benevolent,Philanthropic nation on earth.Again we are not perfect in both action and intention.But damn if we ain't always there to help.
    This isn't chicken or egg.... I'm telling you.....business is not a byproduct of charity, nor intervention. It's the other way around. If you think capitalism is driven by humanitarianism....well, I've got a bridge to sell you.
    Still, there is no denying that the US is very charitable! I think your low taxes might skew the numbers a bit when it comes to charity per capita (most of you guys would shit yer pants if you saw what your wage looked like after deductions in Canada), but of course I recognize the US as philanthropic. Still, the benefits of that aid is up for debate. You see a lot of hype when westerners are filling sand bags in a flood zone, or doctors are helping kids....rightly so.
    But I don't think that kind of aid is the typical aid flowing out of the country. Aid from some of th bigger NGO's is often set up a covert political funding. Even aid from missionary charities can have ulterior motives - working on behalf of business interests. They've been caught doing this in central/south America a few times. The most obvious example of how aid is NOT aid - is 'development aid' from western-controlled bankers. This is NOT a country (read: a country's people), suckling off uncle sam's tit! It is not normally some poor nation approaching the US with their hand out. It is usually Western businessmen approaching the government of a poor country with a business proposal. The corrupt government accepts it (usually with lined pockets), knowing full well it will almost exclusively benefit the upper class of their country - with often devastating results amongst the poor. You want to increase your GDP by 10% next year? Build a hydro-electric plant....with our contractors....at interest. That plant will only improve the lives of people with the infrastructure to use it, obviously. The profits will mainly be kept by the contractors and bankers who pushed the plan, and the people who approved it. ....And it will displace 10,000 indigenous people. Yet in the west, it's promoted as US companies working to improve lives in the 3rd world. And this is the kind of shit that we use to justify military might to 'protect our interests'? When those locals start fire bombing the US contractors who are there to bulldoze their land, destroy their livelihoods....we send in armies or fund mercenaries to kill them? Cause this shit happens all the time, and it's what you're defending. anyway, I'm ranting and off topic now.

    We are talking the same thing here Drowned.I think we are on the same page with the why and how.Only difference is our view on what part is good and what's bad.But props man .you can write a fucking response.All that Schollarly stuff really paid off for you.All joking aside ,you always have great substance to your postings.Even if I don't always agree with it.Cheers.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    I don't know if there will be retaliatory attacks in the future and neither does Glenn Greenwald. I hope he is right and that list remains blank. Kind of early though for him to be taking a victory lap.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Who is Glen gredwald
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,102
    dick cheney said he would go for torture again in a second.

    can we arrest this motherfucker?? is there a statute of limitations on human rights violations?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    gimmesometruth27 wrote: »
    dick cheney said he would go for torture again in a second.

    can we arrest this motherfucker?? is there a statute of limitations on human rights violations?

    I would rather see him arrested and tried for the murder of thousands of US troops that he led into Iraq based on lies. I'm sure they could tack on torture charges.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    And the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis as well last-12. I was gonna say million but I don't want to start another debate.

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