Tamir Rice shooting (12yr old)

PJfanwillneverleave1

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.

He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.

They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.

30
Take the liberal blinders off for a second.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people.
What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.

I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.

Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?

Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.

They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.

1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.

2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.

1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.

The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.

2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.

Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.

The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching?
At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his.
Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert.
Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react?
Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.

playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.

Yes - it's what kids do, together.
Not alone.
I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

^^^^^

A kid plays alone in a park with a toy gun. This is not extreme behaviour by any stretch of the imagination.

And you seem to be dismissing context- a valuable tool for police to consider when assessing threat levels. A liquor store late at night is a much different context than a park in the middle of the day.

And the 'reach' you refer to is contentious. It's not a definitive, lightning quick call to draw... it's a slight movement to his waist. He was likely scared and about to show the officers the toy- some direction might have been useful instead of a bullet.

Not sure why a kid playing alone in a park with a "toy" gun does not draw suspicion at all in your mind.
I see what you are saying with the context point but it doesn't matter to police. They were called to a scene with a possible lethal weapon to deal with.

30- a cop will shoot if you make any sudden movement especially if perceived as a draw for a weapon. Not sure why you can't admit that. The people he scared with his "toy" gun were probably in fear for their life as well.

dignin

When thirty thinks it stinks, it probably does. Thirty, you have been on point.

Also, If the cops thought the kid had a gun....why would they pull up within a few feet of him? Is that considered good police work?

Happy new year to you too thirty.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

dignin said:

When thirty thinks it stinks, it probably does. Thirty, you have been on point.

Also, If the cops thought the kid had a gun....why would they pull up within a few feet of him? Is that considered good police work?

Happy new year to you too thirty.

Cheers!

Be safe.

rgambs

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.

He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.

They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.

30
Take the liberal blinders off for a second.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people.
What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.

I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.

Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?

Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.

They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.

1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.

2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.

1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.

The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.

2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.

Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.

The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching?
At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his.
Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert.
Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react?
Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.

playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.

Yes - it's what kids do, together.
Not alone.
I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.

Get off your high horse, probably every male in this forum played with toy guns. So he was alone, are kids supposed to not play when they are alone???

rgambs

If I could post pictures, I would easily display dozens of pictures of white adults brandishing guns in public, someone calls the cops and the guntoters get talked to.

PJfanwillneverleave1

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.

He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.

They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.

30
Take the liberal blinders off for a second.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people.
What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.

I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.

Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?

Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.

They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.

1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.

2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.

1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.

The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.

2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.

Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.

The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching?
At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his.
Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert.
Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react?
Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.

playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.

Yes - it's what kids do, together.
Not alone.
I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.

Get off your high horse, probably every male in this forum played with toy guns. So he was alone, are kids supposed to not play when they are alone???

I can't get off it's been so long I forgot how to.

Yes, probably every male has played with toy guns.
Kids playing together running and chasing each other playing guns paint a pretty distinct scene to anyone around.

A child playing outside alone is typically in a yard and monitored not running around a public park.
A 12yr old is capable of being by himself, but with a replica toygun alone?
I can only speculate that most young adults by age 12 stop playing together with toy guns in a park.
Why are you another person that can't grasp that being alone brandishing a weapon will cause attention.
This is my version of a toygun I played with.

and here is what kids can "play" with now

So yeah, alone 12yrs old at a park with a toygun now is mischievous and foolish.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.

He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.

They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.

30
Take the liberal blinders off for a second.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people.
What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.

I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.

Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?

Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.

They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.

1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.

2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.

1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.

The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.

2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.

Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.

The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching?
At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his.
Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert.
Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react?
Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.

playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.

Yes - it's what kids do, together.
Not alone.
I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.

Get off your high horse, probably every male in this forum played with toy guns. So he was alone, are kids supposed to not play when they are alone???

I can't get off it's been so long I forgot how to.

Yes, probably every male has played with toy guns.
Kids playing together running and chasing each other playing guns paint a pretty distinct scene to anyone around.

A child playing outside alone is typically in a yard and monitored not running around a public park.
A 12yr old is capable of being by himself, but with a replica toygun alone?
I can only speculate that most young adults by age 12 stop playing together with toy guns in a park.
Why are you another person that can't grasp that being alone brandishing a weapon will cause attention.
This is my version of a toygun I played with.

and here is what kids can "play" with now

So yeah, alone 12yrs old at a park with a toygun now is mischievous and foolish.

If that was the toy gun you played with... that was lame.

I had an m16 toy gun that rocked. Many a summer day playing WWII front lines and Planet of the Apes.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^^^
Context 30, context.

gimmesometruth27

Thirty Bills Unpaid

gimmesometruth27 said:

Pretty much.

rgambs

gimmesometruth27 said:

It amazes me that people are too blind to see white privilege, or have the balls to deny it because they don't like the implications.

HughFreakingDillon

no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

People here were denying white privilege.
If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

People here were denying white privilege.
If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.

exactly, all pure speculation. saying the dispatcher may have relayed the info more accurately is a very BIG stretch. that is suggesting intent on the dispatcher's part.

and of course it happens, but I believe in this instance race was irrelevant.

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

People here were denying white privilege.
If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.

exactly, all pure speculation. saying the dispatcher may have relayed the info more accurately is a very BIG stretch. that is suggesting intent on the dispatcher's part.

and of course it happens, but I believe in this instance race was irrelevant.

That's the point though, you can't ever rule it out as a possibility.
As far as the dispatch, it isn't a big stretch at all. Racial bias is real, studies have shown all sorts of crazy things racial bias will cause, like the fact that people shown a picture are often unable to correctly determine which person in the photo is holding a knife when it is in the white persons hand.
It isn't a big stretch by any measure to imagine a dispatcher giving more details on a white suspect than black.

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no one is denying white privelege, but I am able to base a case on its own merit, not simply the color of the victim's skin. I truly believe that if this kid were white, all other things being the same, he still would have been shot dead.

People here were denying white privilege.
If the kid was white the cops may have never been called in the first place, the dispatcher may have relayed the information given more accurately, and yes, the cops may have dealt with him completely differently. Those are all "may"s, but there is no question that this stuff happens.

exactly, all pure speculation. saying the dispatcher may have relayed the info more accurately is a very BIG stretch. that is suggesting intent on the dispatcher's part.

and of course it happens, but I believe in this instance race was irrelevant.

That's the point though, you can't ever rule it out as a possibility.
As far as the dispatch, it isn't a big stretch at all. Racial bias is real, studies have shown all sorts of crazy things racial bias will cause, like the fact that people shown a picture are often unable to correctly determine which person in the photo is holding a knife when it is in the white persons hand.
It isn't a big stretch by any measure to imagine a dispatcher giving more details on a white suspect than black.

it is a big stretch when it is based on zero evidence.

again, I am not denying racial bias is real. but you can't assume it is the cause in every instance. you can look into it in every instance, but assuming it is the cause is irresponsible.

mickeyrat

You stay classy Cleveland.

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/11/10966360/tamir-rice-cleveland-ambulance-bill

HughFreakingDillon

mickeyrat said:

You stay classy Cleveland.

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/11/10966360/tamir-rice-cleveland-ambulance-bill

holy shit.

rgambs

America The Beautiful