Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
everything I've read about this case tells me the cops did nothing wrong. they weren't given the proper information, and they have to make the decision to fire/not fire in a split second. every one of you, in my opinion, would have reacted the same.
I'm not sure about that, Hugh.
I'm one of the most ardent supporters of police in the most contentious cases, but I have a hard time with this one. A kid sitting on a park table, nobody around him, holding a play gun- even if it was a real gun... a quick and reasonable assessment should have established a more patient approach.
Yup, that's the problem. they didn't need a split second decision.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
I agree with both these points.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
from what I surmised from the video, he was already walking that direction when they drove up. they drove up so quickly, and by the time they got there, he was already a few feet from the cop car. impossible for them to stop and have time to assess. the way you describe it, they drove up, THEN he got up and started walking towards them. that's not what I saw.
was he or was he not brandishing the toy gun at the time of the shooting? from what I saw, he was. if I am wrong, let me know. I have a hard time with surveillance video.
is it odd they didn't administer first aid? yes, but don't ASSUME this was intentional. it may have been that they were so freaked out when they realized that a) he was a kid, and b) it was a toy gun, not real, they may have panicked. who knows. there's no sound. you are assuming guilt without having the actual facts.
honestly, I agree with the witness assessment that he looked much older than he was. when the video first began, I didn't realize the shooting victim was the person walking around until the screen went blue "subject off camera". I assumed it was the person sitting at the table initially.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
so by saying that it was "ruthlessness", are you implying there was intent to murder?
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
so by saying that it was "ruthlessness", are you implying there was intent to murder?
No. I'm saying there was no regard for human life.
As per our perceptions on the video footage... it's my impression that he saw the cop car coming towards him and this prompted him to get off the table and walk towards the direction of the approaching vehicle- I'm not sure what distance remains off camera that the cruiser needed to cover before coming to the stop.
This distance might also lend support- one way or another- for the time the officers might have had to make an assessment. I maintain they never assessed very well at all. Further... how about "Hands up" or "Drop the gun" before bam bam? He was not brandishing the weapon or aiming it at anyone- nobody else was around and nobody was in immediate danger.
If the two cops were freaked out (as you put it) and not indifferent that they had just shot a kid playing with a toy gun in a park... then I think that would speak to their level of incompetence: which is better than indifferent, but brutal nonetheless.
hugh the 911 caller stated he believed it was a kid and the "weapon" might not be real. granted he was concerned enough to make the call but was very calm when speaking to them.
I wonder if the 911 operator has any culpability for negligent homicide or something like that or along those lines.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching? At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his. Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert. Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react? Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
hugh the 911 caller stated he believed it was a kid and the "weapon" might not be real. granted he was concerned enough to make the call but was very calm when speaking to them.
I wonder if the 911 operator has any culpability for negligent homicide or something like that or along those lines.
but there was part of the problem. that information got lost between the 911 op and the cops. they never heard it might not be real. supports their state of mind when hitting the scene.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching? At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his. Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert. Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react? Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
A kid plays alone in a park with a toy gun. This is not extreme behaviour by any stretch of the imagination.
And you seem to be dismissing context- a valuable tool for police to consider when assessing threat levels. A liquor store late at night is a much different context than a park in the middle of the day.
And the 'reach' you refer to is contentious. It's not a definitive, lightning quick call to draw... it's a slight movement to his waist. He was likely scared and about to show the officers the toy- some direction might have been useful instead of a bullet.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
at one point it looked like he was walking towards someone or something to the left of the screen holding the gun up as if preparing to shoot. at least that's what it looked like to me. that may have been when the person called 911.
the video I'm watching shows him walking towards the cops with the gun in his hands, but not drawn. he was a mere few feet away from the cop car. to me that suggests it is reasonable to believe the cops feared for their safety.
how they reacted after, again, I can't defend (or even comment on). not enough info.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
so by saying that it was "ruthlessness", are you implying there was intent to murder?
No. I'm saying there was no regard for human life.
As per our perceptions on the video footage... it's my impression that he saw the cop car coming towards him and this prompted him to get off the table and walk towards the direction of the approaching vehicle- I'm not sure what distance remains off camera that the cruiser needed to cover before coming to the stop.
This distance might also lend support- one way or another- for the time the officers might have had to make an assessment. I maintain they never assessed very well at all. Further... how about "Hands up" or "Drop the gun" before bam bam? He was not brandishing the weapon or aiming it at anyone- nobody else was around and nobody was in immediate danger.
If the two cops were freaked out (as you put it) and not indifferent that they had just shot a kid playing with a toy gun in a park... then I think that would speak to their level of incompetence: which is better than indifferent, but brutal nonetheless.
poor police work maybe, I can agree. but "ruthless" is a bit of a stretch.
again, from what I saw, he was already walking towards the cruiser as they drove up.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
I'm undeterred from my position, fellas. I've argued ardently on behalf of cops in many other threads and have been unpopular doing so (I'm on a list right above Mickey's sofa LOL). This case stinks in my opinion for the reasons I've already detailed.
I respect your takes on the issue and there is an element of potential validity to your claims- I'm just not buying in though (I'm saying I've considered where you're coming from... but remain with my original position).
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching? At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his. Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert. Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react? Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.
Yes - it's what kids do, together. Not alone. I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.
A kid plays alone in a park with a toy gun. This is not extreme behaviour by any stretch of the imagination.
And you seem to be dismissing context- a valuable tool for police to consider when assessing threat levels. A liquor store late at night is a much different context than a park in the middle of the day.
And the 'reach' you refer to is contentious. It's not a definitive, lightning quick call to draw... it's a slight movement to his waist. He was likely scared and about to show the officers the toy- some direction might have been useful instead of a bullet.
Not sure why a kid playing alone in a park with a "toy" gun does not draw suspicion at all in your mind. I see what you are saying with the context point but it doesn't matter to police. They were called to a scene with a possible lethal weapon to deal with.
30- a cop will shoot if you make any sudden movement especially if perceived as a draw for a weapon. Not sure why you can't admit that. The people he scared with his "toy" gun were probably in fear for their life as well.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching? At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his. Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert. Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react? Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.
Yes - it's what kids do, together. Not alone. I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.
Get off your high horse, probably every male in this forum played with toy guns. So he was alone, are kids supposed to not play when they are alone???
If I could post pictures, I would easily display dozens of pictures of white adults brandishing guns in public, someone calls the cops and the guntoters get talked to.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching? At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his. Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert. Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react? Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.
Yes - it's what kids do, together. Not alone. I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.
Get off your high horse, probably every male in this forum played with toy guns. So he was alone, are kids supposed to not play when they are alone???
I can't get off it's been so long I forgot how to.
Yes, probably every male has played with toy guns. Kids playing together running and chasing each other playing guns paint a pretty distinct scene to anyone around.
A child playing outside alone is typically in a yard and monitored not running around a public park. A 12yr old is capable of being by himself, but with a replica toygun alone? I can only speculate that most young adults by age 12 stop playing together with toy guns in a park. Why are you another person that can't grasp that being alone brandishing a weapon will cause attention. This is my version of a toygun I played with. and here is what kids can "play" with now So yeah, alone 12yrs old at a park with a toygun now is mischievous and foolish.
Ok, so I finally watched the video. He asnt sitting calmly at the table when officers arrived on scene. He as walking toward the car as it drove up with the gun in his hand. Sorry, but I dont know if it was a justified shooting or not, but it wasnt as cut and dry, never mind "ruthless", as 30 put it, as many here are making it out to be.
He was sitting on the table, saw the cops approaching, got off the table and walked softly towards them.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
30 Take the liberal blinders off for a second. They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people. What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
I'm not so sure the Liberal flag bearers would agree with your assessment of my political belief system.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
1. By all accounts he was threatening, hence why the public called the police.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
1. By all accounts... you mean the phone call made to police suggesting there was a young black man in a park wielding a gun and threatening people? Did you watch the first part of the video? Every time a person came by... Tamir stuffed his hands in his pockets, looked at his shoes, and kicked at the pavement (basically). Perhaps he was more intrusive prior to the footage, however... I'm inclined to make my judgements on what I can see versus the word of some anonymous paranoid call to the police describing a maniac on the loose.
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
The video that is in the OP is the one I am watching - which one are you watching? At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his. Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert. Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react? Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
playing alone in a park with a toy gun is exactly what kids do. it's not mischievous nor foolish.
Yes - it's what kids do, together. Not alone. I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.
Get off your high horse, probably every male in this forum played with toy guns. So he was alone, are kids supposed to not play when they are alone???
I can't get off it's been so long I forgot how to.
Yes, probably every male has played with toy guns. Kids playing together running and chasing each other playing guns paint a pretty distinct scene to anyone around.
A child playing outside alone is typically in a yard and monitored not running around a public park. A 12yr old is capable of being by himself, but with a replica toygun alone? I can only speculate that most young adults by age 12 stop playing together with toy guns in a park. Why are you another person that can't grasp that being alone brandishing a weapon will cause attention. This is my version of a toygun I played with. and here is what kids can "play" with now So yeah, alone 12yrs old at a park with a toygun now is mischievous and foolish.
If that was the toy gun you played with... that was lame.
I had an m16 toy gun that rocked. Many a summer day playing WWII front lines and Planet of the Apes.
Comments
-EV 8/14/93
The post shooting reaction is equally abhorrent.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style and blasted him. Sorry, man, but again we'll have to disagree. This was a child playing by himself in a park area in an urban center. It was malicious at worst and negligence at best.
Take the liberal blinders off for a second.
They pulled up Dirty Harry style due to a report of a person pointing a gun at people.
What person (a 12 yr old knows better than to be alone in public with a toy gun - read the muslim clock guy too) walks up to police with a fake gun? - no one except mischievous fools.
Maybe this world has reached the point where we need to ban toy guns to prevent trigger happy cops from killing 12 year olds at the park playing with them... but after watching the video... do you seriously think Tamir looked threatening?
Say nothing of the fact that after the cops blasted the child and discovered the gun was a toy... they never administered first aid for 5 minutes... this reeks of- yes, Hugh- ruthlessness.
They never assessed the situation at all. And never cared that a child was killed for playing with a toy gun or they would have been going, "Oh f**k. Oh f**k. Oh geezuz. Get an ambulance. Help me out here!" instead of what they did- which was nothing.
2. They didn't know if the gun was real or not upon coming to the scene thus puts them in an impossible situation to assess. As the public I expect anyone that comes to a police officer brandishing a gun to be stopped.
-EV 8/14/93
was he or was he not brandishing the toy gun at the time of the shooting? from what I saw, he was. if I am wrong, let me know. I have a hard time with surveillance video.
is it odd they didn't administer first aid? yes, but don't ASSUME this was intentional. it may have been that they were so freaked out when they realized that a) he was a kid, and b) it was a toy gun, not real, they may have panicked. who knows. there's no sound. you are assuming guilt without having the actual facts.
honestly, I agree with the witness assessment that he looked much older than he was. when the video first began, I didn't realize the shooting victim was the person walking around until the screen went blue "subject off camera". I assumed it was the person sitting at the table initially.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
As per our perceptions on the video footage... it's my impression that he saw the cop car coming towards him and this prompted him to get off the table and walk towards the direction of the approaching vehicle- I'm not sure what distance remains off camera that the cruiser needed to cover before coming to the stop.
This distance might also lend support- one way or another- for the time the officers might have had to make an assessment. I maintain they never assessed very well at all. Further... how about "Hands up" or "Drop the gun" before bam bam? He was not brandishing the weapon or aiming it at anyone- nobody else was around and nobody was in immediate danger.
If the two cops were freaked out (as you put it) and not indifferent that they had just shot a kid playing with a toy gun in a park... then I think that would speak to their level of incompetence: which is better than indifferent, but brutal nonetheless.
I wonder if the 911 operator has any culpability for negligent homicide or something like that or along those lines.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The video also shows that when the cops arrived... he was ultra calm and simply standing there.
2. That's why police work is so challenging. They needed to assess properly and never did. They killed a child playing where children play. This was not in a liquor store or back alley or in the middle of night. Police don't establish anything until they get to a scene and determine what the situation is: they skipped this step and moved to action.
Poor police work at best, man. I cannot believe you're defending it.
At 7:11 he is reaching for his "gun", cops reacted in a split second as they are supposed to when a suspect does this. Their life or his.
Does not matter what the person said on the 911 call it is just their opinion - the fact that police were called because of a suspicious person with a weapon roaming in a park where children play is motive enough for police to react on high alert.
Had this kid been playing in an alley at night and done the same thing why would it change how the police react?
Seriously, who plays alone in a park with a toy guy? - mischievous fools.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
A kid plays alone in a park with a toy gun. This is not extreme behaviour by any stretch of the imagination.
And you seem to be dismissing context- a valuable tool for police to consider when assessing threat levels. A liquor store late at night is a much different context than a park in the middle of the day.
And the 'reach' you refer to is contentious. It's not a definitive, lightning quick call to draw... it's a slight movement to his waist. He was likely scared and about to show the officers the toy- some direction might have been useful instead of a bullet.
the video I'm watching shows him walking towards the cops with the gun in his hands, but not drawn. he was a mere few feet away from the cop car. to me that suggests it is reasonable to believe the cops feared for their safety.
how they reacted after, again, I can't defend (or even comment on). not enough info.
-EV 8/14/93
again, from what I saw, he was already walking towards the cruiser as they drove up.
-EV 8/14/93
I'm undeterred from my position, fellas. I've argued ardently on behalf of cops in many other threads and have been unpopular doing so (I'm on a list right above Mickey's sofa LOL). This case stinks in my opinion for the reasons I've already detailed.
I respect your takes on the issue and there is an element of potential validity to your claims- I'm just not buying in though (I'm saying I've considered where you're coming from... but remain with my original position).
Happy New Year.
Not alone.
I don't see many children play alone in parks. If you are alone in a park with a toy guy you are looking for trouble. 12 years old? - you know better.
I see what you are saying with the context point but it doesn't matter to police. They were called to a scene with a possible lethal weapon to deal with.
30- a cop will shoot if you make any sudden movement especially if perceived as a draw for a weapon. Not sure why you can't admit that. The people he scared with his "toy" gun were probably in fear for their life as well.
Also, If the cops thought the kid had a gun....why would they pull up within a few feet of him? Is that considered good police work?
Happy new year to you too thirty.
Be safe.
Yes, probably every male has played with toy guns.
Kids playing together running and chasing each other playing guns paint a pretty distinct scene to anyone around.
A child playing outside alone is typically in a yard and monitored not running around a public park.
A 12yr old is capable of being by himself, but with a replica toygun alone?
I can only speculate that most young adults by age 12 stop playing together with toy guns in a park.
Why are you another person that can't grasp that being alone brandishing a weapon will cause attention.
This is my version of a toygun I played with.
and here is what kids can "play" with now
So yeah, alone 12yrs old at a park with a toygun now is mischievous and foolish.
I had an m16 toy gun that rocked. Many a summer day playing WWII front lines and Planet of the Apes.
Context 30, context.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."