But the facts are settlers are taking land from the Palestinians illegally and that's not debatable. Even the US is somewhat admitting that although ain't doing shit about it.
That's my entire point. No land was taken. There was no theft. This was a property owner making a sale, unless that's also now illegal.
The other interesting point in the article is that it states the land was previously owned by Jordan prior to the war. If Jordan doesn't want it back I am not exactly sure how it is automatically assumed to be Palestinian land?
The UN Partition Plan cordoned off a region for the "Jewish state" - the implicit assumption that the remainder was for Arabs. Fast forward a few years to the conclusion of the War of Independence... Anything I've read about the Armistice Lines of '49 mark off "Jewish" territory and "Arab" territory. I see both of these as valid grounds to assume the land ought to have defaulted to the indigenous Arabs of the land.
Well according to the article linked above this specific land was Jordanian land pre-1967. That's how the long-standing tenants describe it.
From the article:
Rafat Sub Laban, who lives there with his parents, his sister and his brother's wife and children, said the family have rented their home since 1953 when the Old City was ruled by Jordan.
According to the article it says they've been renting since 1953. And according to the year Ben had in his post, it stated the land was divided in 1949. Correct? Is my calculations wrong? Am I missing something here? 49 come before 53?
Benjs could just be postulating here. If these tenants are correct in their description then the land they are on was previously Jordanian from 1953 all the way through until 1967 when it became Israeli. If that's the case are they not Jordanian themselves? At what point did they self-identify as Palestinian? What makes this occupied Palestinian land as opposed to surrendered Jordanian land that they don't intend to reclaim. All important points to ponder when deciding who this property belongs too.
East Jerusalem never became Israeli land. It was illegally occupied in 1967. The entire international community recognizes this - including the US and Canada. My understanding is that under the Ottoman empire, the entire region was considered Palestina. For about 600 years. Jews and arabs in the area were all considered Palestinians, and lived in relative peaceful coexistence. It wasn't until the Zionist movement began that tensions rose between the groups..... Palestine was created at the same time as Israel. So you could flip all of your questions around and ask them of Israel. The whole 'Palestine never existed - they're Jordanians, and Jordan doesn't even want them' line of thinking is usually reserved for the most indoctrinated Zionists, so you're walking the line of extremism here....These people do not have equal rights in Jerusalem, they have been marginalized and systematically removed to allow further Israeli control. Whether you like it or not, they exist, and they deserve equal rights; whether sovereign or within Israel (two state or one state). This line of thinking excuses all Israeli discrimination on the grounds that the arabs in the area have no claim to the land their families have lived on for centuries.
I recognize that they exist and I recognize they should have rights. I also recognize that the Arab private property owners should have the right to sell their land at top dollar to whoever they like without the threat of death from the Palestinian Authority. If this land was originally surrendered Jordanian land then by what right does the Palestinian Authority have to threaten an Arab private property owner who's ownership pre-dates the Palestinian Authority?
This is a bit of a deflection from the original question, no?
Frankly, I don't care whether a Jordanian/Palestinian/Israeli owned the land in the past. The implicit assumption is that either a Jewish lobby, the Israeli government, or an Israeli Jew purchased the land. What right does said person/entity have to go against explicit Israeli founding values (equal rights for all citizens regardless of race or religion, as stipulated by Balfour) to evict an Arab family for being an Arab family? I get the feeling there aren't too many Jews being evicted to make room for Jewish settlements...
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
But the facts are settlers are taking land from the Palestinians illegally and that's not debatable. Even the US is somewhat admitting that although ain't doing shit about it.
That's my entire point. No land was taken. There was no theft. This was a property owner making a sale, unless that's also now illegal.
The other interesting point in the article is that it states the land was previously owned by Jordan prior to the war. If Jordan doesn't want it back I am not exactly sure how it is automatically assumed to be Palestinian land?
The UN Partition Plan cordoned off a region for the "Jewish state" - the implicit assumption that the remainder was for Arabs. Fast forward a few years to the conclusion of the War of Independence... Anything I've read about the Armistice Lines of '49 mark off "Jewish" territory and "Arab" territory. I see both of these as valid grounds to assume the land ought to have defaulted to the indigenous Arabs of the land.
Well according to the article linked above this specific land was Jordanian land pre-1967. That's how the long-standing tenants describe it.
From the article:
Rafat Sub Laban, who lives there with his parents, his sister and his brother's wife and children, said the family have rented their home since 1953 when the Old City was ruled by Jordan.
According to the article it says they've been renting since 1953. And according to the year Ben had in his post, it stated the land was divided in 1949. Correct? Is my calculations wrong? Am I missing something here? 49 come before 53?
Benjs could just be postulating here. If these tenants are correct in their description then the land they are on was previously Jordanian from 1953 all the way through until 1967 when it became Israeli. If that's the case are they not Jordanian themselves? At what point did they self-identify as Palestinian? What makes this occupied Palestinian land as opposed to surrendered Jordanian land that they don't intend to reclaim. All important points to ponder when deciding who this property belongs too.
East Jerusalem never became Israeli land. It was illegally occupied in 1967. The entire international community recognizes this - including the US and Canada. My understanding is that under the Ottoman empire, the entire region was considered Palestina. For about 600 years. Jews and arabs in the area were all considered Palestinians, and lived in relative peaceful coexistence. It wasn't until the Zionist movement began that tensions rose between the groups..... Palestine was created at the same time as Israel. So you could flip all of your questions around and ask them of Israel. The whole 'Palestine never existed - they're Jordanians, and Jordan doesn't even want them' line of thinking is usually reserved for the most indoctrinated Zionists, so you're walking the line of extremism here....These people do not have equal rights in Jerusalem, they have been marginalized and systematically removed to allow further Israeli control. Whether you like it or not, they exist, and they deserve equal rights; whether sovereign or within Israel (two state or one state). This line of thinking excuses all Israeli discrimination on the grounds that the arabs in the area have no claim to the land their families have lived on for centuries.
I recognize that they exist and I recognize they should have rights. I also recognize that the Arab private property owners should have the right to sell their land at top dollar to whoever they like without the threat of death from the Palestinian Authority. If this land was originally surrendered Jordanian land then by what right does the Palestinian Authority have to threaten an Arab private property owner who's ownership pre-dates the Palestinian Authority?
This is a bit of a deflection from the original question, no?
Frankly, I don't care whether a Jordanian/Palestinian/Israeli owned the land in the past. The implicit assumption is that either a Jewish lobby, the Israeli government, or an Israeli Jew purchased the land. What right does said person/entity have to go against explicit Israeli founding values (equal rights for all citizens regardless of race or religion, as stipulated by Balfour) to evict an Arab family for being an Arab family? I get the feeling there aren't too many Jews being evicted to make room for Jewish settlements...
If the family is being evicted for just being Arab then that certainly is a problem but that isn't necessarily what is happening here. It seems that an Arab landlord is making a sale and the question is whether the tenant has a right to remain after the sale whether they are arab or not. That would depend on the lease agreement they have.
But the facts are settlers are taking land from the Palestinians illegally and that's not debatable. Even the US is somewhat admitting that although ain't doing shit about it.
That's my entire point. No land was taken. There was no theft. This was a property owner making a sale, unless that's also now illegal.
The other interesting point in the article is that it states the land was previously owned by Jordan prior to the war. If Jordan doesn't want it back I am not exactly sure how it is automatically assumed to be Palestinian land?
The UN Partition Plan cordoned off a region for the "Jewish state" - the implicit assumption that the remainder was for Arabs. Fast forward a few years to the conclusion of the War of Independence... Anything I've read about the Armistice Lines of '49 mark off "Jewish" territory and "Arab" territory. I see both of these as valid grounds to assume the land ought to have defaulted to the indigenous Arabs of the land.
Well according to the article linked above this specific land was Jordanian land pre-1967. That's how the long-standing tenants describe it.
From the article:
Rafat Sub Laban, who lives there with his parents, his sister and his brother's wife and children, said the family have rented their home since 1953 when the Old City was ruled by Jordan.
According to the article it says they've been renting since 1953. And according to the year Ben had in his post, it stated the land was divided in 1949. Correct? Is my calculations wrong? Am I missing something here? 49 come before 53?
Benjs could just be postulating here. If these tenants are correct in their description then the land they are on was previously Jordanian from 1953 all the way through until 1967 when it became Israeli. If that's the case are they not Jordanian themselves? At what point did they self-identify as Palestinian? What makes this occupied Palestinian land as opposed to surrendered Jordanian land that they don't intend to reclaim. All important points to ponder when deciding who this property belongs too.
East Jerusalem never became Israeli land. It was illegally occupied in 1967. The entire international community recognizes this - including the US and Canada. My understanding is that under the Ottoman empire, the entire region was considered Palestina. For about 600 years. Jews and arabs in the area were all considered Palestinians, and lived in relative peaceful coexistence. It wasn't until the Zionist movement began that tensions rose between the groups..... Palestine was created at the same time as Israel. So you could flip all of your questions around and ask them of Israel. The whole 'Palestine never existed - they're Jordanians, and Jordan doesn't even want them' line of thinking is usually reserved for the most indoctrinated Zionists, so you're walking the line of extremism here....These people do not have equal rights in Jerusalem, they have been marginalized and systematically removed to allow further Israeli control. Whether you like it or not, they exist, and they deserve equal rights; whether sovereign or within Israel (two state or one state). This line of thinking excuses all Israeli discrimination on the grounds that the arabs in the area have no claim to the land their families have lived on for centuries.
I recognize that they exist and I recognize they should have rights. I also recognize that the Arab private property owners should have the right to sell their land at top dollar to whoever they like without the threat of death from the Palestinian Authority. If this land was originally surrendered Jordanian land then by what right does the Palestinian Authority have to threaten an Arab private property owner who's ownership pre-dates the Palestinian Authority?
This is a bit of a deflection from the original question, no?
Frankly, I don't care whether a Jordanian/Palestinian/Israeli owned the land in the past. The implicit assumption is that either a Jewish lobby, the Israeli government, or an Israeli Jew purchased the land. What right does said person/entity have to go against explicit Israeli founding values (equal rights for all citizens regardless of race or religion, as stipulated by Balfour) to evict an Arab family for being an Arab family? I get the feeling there aren't too many Jews being evicted to make room for Jewish settlements...
If the family is being evicted for just being Arab then that certainly is a problem but that isn't necessarily what is happening here. It seems that an Arab landlord is making a sale and the question is whether the tenant has a right to remain after the sale whether they are arab or not. That would depend on the lease agreement they have.
This is a valuable lesson for me in not taking anything at face value. Truly, at first, I'd assume 9 out of 10 people would call 'foul play' upon reading the article. Now, at best it seems poorly written, and at worst potentially slanderous (depending on the true ownership of the residence). The fact that they're being evicted "to make way for Jewish settlements" seems to be nothing more than hyperbole without supporting evidence as well.
Does this make Israel heroic? Nope. But with significant details omitted, I see no reason to criticize them on this count: there are plenty more justifiable causes for criticism if need be.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I just googled Palestinian family evicted and shit, too many fucken stories to list. But I found this article about what we're talking about. It's a lot more complicated then I first thought:
Thanks Kyle - things get so much clearer when you chip in!
I do have one question, and forgive me if this is silly... Is there such a thing as a legal occupation? My understanding is that the area of the West Bank was occupied by Jordan before (i.e. they wouldn't be considered Jordanians per se), so I'm truly curious how that occupation was legitimized back then. I guess it's possible that their degree of subjugation to Jordanian rule wasn't quite as extreme (which would seem likely to me).
I'm no expert on international law...but I believe a legal occupation would be one voted on and agreed to by the UN.
I recognize that they exist and I recognize they should have rights. I also recognize that the Arab private property owners should have the right to sell their land at top dollar to whoever they like without the threat of death from the Palestinian Authority. If this land was originally surrendered Jordanian land then by what right does the Palestinian Authority have to threaten an Arab private property owner who's ownership pre-dates the Palestinian Authority?
This land has changed hands a number of times over the years...it's pretty mind boggling to go back thru decades, then centuries, and decide at what point do you declare which group the rightful, historical owners. The facts on the ground, as they stand today, are that the policies enacted in East Jerusalem have only one goal - expel as many Palestinians as possible, and move Jews into the city to replace them. They accomplish this via one-sided absentee laws, one-sided construction permits, one-sided funding for infrastructure and social programs, expropriation, one-sided processes for citizenship (for people BORN in the fuckin place), revoking residency permits, building walls, declaring Palestinian land 'Israeli national parks', limiting Palestinians ability to find and keep jobs, cutting off utilities, and any other way they can find to either use discriminatory laws to remove Palestinians from the land, or make their lives miserable enough that they move from East Jerusalem. Basically the same things that are happening all over the occupied territories, but in a much more concentrated environment, with the added aggravations of being adjacent to 'holy' land.... The family mentioned in the OP says that they are the only Palestinian family left in their apartment building (they claim most of the buildings around them are occupied entirely by Jewish settlers), and have been fighting for their home in court for over 20 years. http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=759929 . Good info on discrimination as well. Click around B'tselem's (Israeli human rights org) East Jerusalem page for more info on the Israeli's tactics in East Jerusalem:
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,345
Until the creation of Israel as a state, Britain maintained Palestine as a colonial property. So being in control of territory doesnt mean "ownership" per se.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Until the creation of Israel as a state, Britain maintained Palestine as a colonial property. So being in control of territory doesnt mean "ownership" per se.
Yep... I'd read that the British didn't actually have any sovereignty over the region.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I just googled Palestinian family evicted and shit, too many fucken stories to list. But I found this article about what we're talking about. It's a lot more complicated then I first thought:
Propaganda posing as a news article. The author almost gets away with it until: "Last Monday, Israeli and Palestinian activists went to the Sub Laban home in order to prevent a possible eviction. Due to our presence, the police agreed to wait and see whether the family’s lawyer will be able to get the court to delay the eviction." So, no, not an unbiased reporter. Actually, a self described "activist."
I just googled Palestinian family evicted and shit, too many fucken stories to list. But I found this article about what we're talking about. It's a lot more complicated then I first thought:
Propaganda posing as a news article. The author almost gets away with it until: "Last Monday, Israeli and Palestinian activists went to the Sub Laban home in order to prevent a possible eviction. Due to our presence, the police agreed to wait and see whether the family’s lawyer will be able to get the court to delay the eviction." So, no, not an unbiased reporter. Actually, a self described "activist."
How do you learn anything if you're only willing to accept facts from those without bias? Essentially, you're left with articles written by robots. And depending on who programmed the robot, those might not be fair game either. Seems to me better to read from multiple biases than none.
How can you write this off as propaganda without knowing whether the document is factually accurate or not?
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I just googled Palestinian family evicted and shit, too many fucken stories to list. But I found this article about what we're talking about. It's a lot more complicated then I first thought:
Propaganda posing as a news article. The author almost gets away with it until: "Last Monday, Israeli and Palestinian activists went to the Sub Laban home in order to prevent a possible eviction. Due to our presence, the police agreed to wait and see whether the family’s lawyer will be able to get the court to delay the eviction." So, no, not an unbiased reporter. Actually, a self described "activist."
How do you learn anything if you're only willing to accept facts from those without bias? Essentially, you're left with articles written by robots. And depending on who programmed the robot, those might not be fair game either. Seems to me better to read from multiple biases than none.
How can you write this off as propaganda without knowing whether the document is factually accurate or not?
You make a good point. I don't mean to completely write it off as propaganda. I'm just saying that the author clearly has chosen sides and has an agenda. Some of the article may be true, but I would be highly skeptical considering some of the inflammatory language and accusations thrown around.
I just googled Palestinian family evicted and shit, too many fucken stories to list. But I found this article about what we're talking about. It's a lot more complicated then I first thought:
Propaganda posing as a news article. The author almost gets away with it until: "Last Monday, Israeli and Palestinian activists went to the Sub Laban home in order to prevent a possible eviction. Due to our presence, the police agreed to wait and see whether the family’s lawyer will be able to get the court to delay the eviction." So, no, not an unbiased reporter. Actually, a self described "activist."
How do you learn anything if you're only willing to accept facts from those without bias? Essentially, you're left with articles written by robots. And depending on who programmed the robot, those might not be fair game either. Seems to me better to read from multiple biases than none.
How can you write this off as propaganda without knowing whether the document is factually accurate or not?
You make a good point. I don't mean to completely write it off as propaganda. I'm just saying that the author clearly has chosen sides and has an agenda. Some of the article may be true, but I would be highly skeptical considering some of the inflammatory language and accusations thrown around.
Fair enough, but let's be honest, I've chosen sides, and I'm assuming you have too (though I like to hope we're both capable of responding to rationality and not our own internal beliefs, which are only a byproduct of knowledge anyways).
As far as inflammatory language and accusations - they come with passion. We're all likely to not see it in the articles that we share the passion for, and to see it exaggerated in the articles we don't. It's our job to attempt to internally bias correct for both, and not merely discount or believe based on the pro- or anti- affiliation.
Post edited by benjs on
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,345
Either way. Bibi is just a self serving sack of shit politician. No different than most. Except most dont have a boot on an entire populations neck.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"Amnesty said rocket attacks had killed six civilians in Israel, including a child, but that other rockets aimed at the Jewish state had fallen short and killed at least 13 civilians, 11 of them children, in Gaza."
nice try. the friendly fire was accidental.
how many palestinian civilians were intentionally gunned down by the idf again?
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
"Amnesty said rocket attacks had killed six civilians in Israel, including a child, but that other rockets aimed at the Jewish state had fallen short and killed at least 13 civilians, 11 of them children, in Gaza."
nice try. the friendly fire was accidental.
how many palestinian civilians were intentionally gunned down by the idf again?
"Amnesty said rocket attacks had killed six civilians in Israel, including a child, but that other rockets aimed at the Jewish state had fallen short and killed at least 13 civilians, 11 of them children, in Gaza."
nice try. the friendly fire was accidental.
how many palestinian civilians were intentionally gunned down by the idf again?
"Amnesty said rocket attacks had killed six civilians in Israel, including a child, but that other rockets aimed at the Jewish state had fallen short and killed at least 13 civilians, 11 of them children, in Gaza."
nice try. the friendly fire was accidental.
how many palestinian civilians were intentionally gunned down by the idf again?
"Amnesty said rocket attacks had killed six civilians in Israel, including a child, but that other rockets aimed at the Jewish state had fallen short and killed at least 13 civilians, 11 of them children, in Gaza."
nice try. the friendly fire was accidental.
how many palestinian civilians were intentionally gunned down by the idf again?
So you're okay with the friendly fire?
no there shouldn't have been any fire at all.
i just find it funny that they are keeping score.
but when has friendly fire ever been called a war crime?
at any rate, the six killed in israel is far less than what the idf has killed.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
Oh god, you're getting more comical with desperation. So they killed 13 by friendly fire and that gets you to say something? Where were you when I posted that video of the market getting hit with rockets from Israeli Apache helicopters, and when everyone came to help, they fired another rocket for good measure. Where were you? Oh ya, you were cheering them on.
Oh god, you're getting more comical with desperation. So they killed 13 by friendly fire and that gets you to say something? Where were you when I posted that video of the market getting hit with rockets from Israeli Apache helicopters, and when everyone came to help, they fired another rocket for good measure. Where were you? Oh ya, you were cheering them on.
Where was I? I was arguing that Hamas rocket attacks would only bring more death to Palestinians and anyone who cares about Palestinians should be seeking the end of Hamas. Hamas used their people as pawns and it only brought misery.
Oh god, you're getting more comical with desperation. So they killed 13 by friendly fire and that gets you to say something? Where were you when I posted that video of the market getting hit with rockets from Israeli Apache helicopters, and when everyone came to help, they fired another rocket for good measure. Where were you? Oh ya, you were cheering them on.
Where was I? I was arguing that Hamas rocket attacks would only bring more death to Palestinians and anyone who cares about Palestinians should be seeking the end of Hamas. Hamas used their people as pawns and it only brought misery.
We're going in circles here. I don't see why Hamas can't be wrong and Israel also be wrong, but Hamas' existence and desperation in representation of the people of Gaza be a byproduct of Israel's wrong actions over years. Seems to me that's clearly what's going on.
The UN-defined illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories precedes Hamas' existence. The illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories will likely outlive Hamas' existence. Because the voice of the resistance of the Palestinian territories has been reduced to hodgepodge weaponry, that will be the voice of the next regime which claims to be a path to liberation. Israel will claim this is inappropriate, BS will claim it's inappropriate, the world will claim it's inappropriate, the status quo will remain.
More circles of inactivity and injustice, and no clear way where the cycle can be broken.
And more of this stupid fucking conversation that serves literally no one with a humanitarian bone in his or her body. Without admission of guilt, there can be no alliances, only debate between enemies. When two parties still call each other enemies, there can be no trust, and therefore no peace. Both parties are guilty of this lack of accountability: only one is guilty of lack of accountability for being the cause of the necessity for the other.
Think the guy who says "shoot your friend or I'll shoot you". When the oppressed person shoots his friend, sure he's guilty - but who's responsible?
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Oh god, you're getting more comical with desperation. So they killed 13 by friendly fire and that gets you to say something? Where were you when I posted that video of the market getting hit with rockets from Israeli Apache helicopters, and when everyone came to help, they fired another rocket for good measure. Where were you? Oh ya, you were cheering them on.
Where was I? I was arguing that Hamas rocket attacks would only bring more death to Palestinians and anyone who cares about Palestinians should be seeking the end of Hamas. Hamas used their people as pawns and it only brought misery.
Again, blame the victims. I'm gonna come out and ask you straight up, are you a Zionist? I asked u before what religion you are and u danced around it to the point of calling me an anti-Semite. Are you man enough to admit you're a Zionist? Cuz as someone has said already, you clearly have Zionist beliefs.
Edit-and the reason I ask isn't so I can put a fucken yellow star on your sleeve, it's so I can fucken better understand why someone like you gives zero blame on the Israeli regime and shits on anything Palestinian. I'm also beginning to wonder if it was you who flagged my pics from the slaughter of the children in Palestine to have them removed.
The Hateful Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State
Since virtually every comment on Hamas in American media includes the assertion that the group’s Charter rejects Israel’s right to exist, it’s worth noting the following from the Likud Platform of 1999:
a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
Oh god, you're getting more comical with desperation. So they killed 13 by friendly fire and that gets you to say something? Where were you when I posted that video of the market getting hit with rockets from Israeli Apache helicopters, and when everyone came to help, they fired another rocket for good measure. Where were you? Oh ya, you were cheering them on.
Where was I? I was arguing that Hamas rocket attacks would only bring more death to Palestinians and anyone who cares about Palestinians should be seeking the end of Hamas. Hamas used their people as pawns and it only brought misery.
Again, blame the victims. I'm gonna come out and ask you straight up, are you a Zionist? I asked u before what religion you are and u danced around it to the point of calling me an anti-Semite. Are you man enough to admit you're a Zionist? Cuz as someone has said already, you clearly have Zionist beliefs.
Edit-and the reason I ask isn't so I can put a fucken yellow star on your sleeve, it's so I can fucken better understand why someone like you gives zero blame on the Israeli regime and shits on anything Palestinian. I'm also beginning to wonder if it was you who flagged my pics from the slaughter of the children in Palestine to have them removed.
Nart, to be fair, you know that I'm a Zionist, right?
I just find the state of Israel to be a bastardization of Zionist, Jewish, and humanitarian ideals, all of which would find it morally apprehensible to subjugate an indigenous population as a byproduct of creating a Jewish state.
Post edited by benjs on
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Oh god, you're getting more comical with desperation. So they killed 13 by friendly fire and that gets you to say something? Where were you when I posted that video of the market getting hit with rockets from Israeli Apache helicopters, and when everyone came to help, they fired another rocket for good measure. Where were you? Oh ya, you were cheering them on.
Where was I? I was arguing that Hamas rocket attacks would only bring more death to Palestinians and anyone who cares about Palestinians should be seeking the end of Hamas. Hamas used their people as pawns and it only brought misery.
Again, blame the victims. I'm gonna come out and ask you straight up, are you a Zionist? I asked u before what religion you are and u danced around it to the point of calling me an anti-Semite. Are you man enough to admit you're a Zionist? Cuz as someone has said already, you clearly have Zionist beliefs.
Edit-and the reason I ask isn't so I can put a fucken yellow star on your sleeve, it's so I can fucken better understand why someone like you gives zero blame on the Israeli regime and shits on anything Palestinian. I'm also beginning to wonder if it was you who flagged my pics from the slaughter of the children in Palestine to have them removed.
1) Hamas are not the victims. The unfortunate souls subjugated by them in Gaza are 2) I believe Israel can and should exist as a jewish state and that a Hamas-free Palestinian state can and should exist as well 3) If this makes me a zionist so be it...it is guys like you who try to turn that into a dirty word 4) I didn't flag your pics 5) You swear too much
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Ever since they exterminated the native population lol That's a discussion for another thread and another day!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Ever since they exterminated the native population lol That's a discussion for another thread and another day!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Ever since they exterminated the native population lol That's a discussion for another thread and another day!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Ever since they exterminated the native population lol That's a discussion for another thread and another day!
Comments
Frankly, I don't care whether a Jordanian/Palestinian/Israeli owned the land in the past. The implicit assumption is that either a Jewish lobby, the Israeli government, or an Israeli Jew purchased the land. What right does said person/entity have to go against explicit Israeli founding values (equal rights for all citizens regardless of race or religion, as stipulated by Balfour) to evict an Arab family for being an Arab family? I get the feeling there aren't too many Jews being evicted to make room for Jewish settlements...
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Does this make Israel heroic? Nope. But with significant details omitted, I see no reason to criticize them on this count: there are plenty more justifiable causes for criticism if need be.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
http://972mag.com/palestinian-family-under-threat-of-eviction-by-settlers/104674/
The family mentioned in the OP says that they are the only Palestinian family left in their apartment building (they claim most of the buildings around them are occupied entirely by Jewish settlers), and have been fighting for their home in court for over 20 years. http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=759929 . Good info on discrimination as well.
Click around B'tselem's (Israeli human rights org) East Jerusalem page for more info on the Israeli's tactics in East Jerusalem:
http://www.btselem.org/topic/jerusalem
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"Last Monday, Israeli and Palestinian activists went to the Sub Laban home in order to prevent a possible eviction. Due to our presence, the police agreed to wait and see whether the family’s lawyer will be able to get the court to delay the eviction."
So, no, not an unbiased reporter. Actually, a self described "activist."
How can you write this off as propaganda without knowing whether the document is factually accurate or not?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
As far as inflammatory language and accusations - they come with passion. We're all likely to not see it in the articles that we share the passion for, and to see it exaggerated in the articles we don't. It's our job to attempt to internally bias correct for both, and not merely discount or believe based on the pro- or anti- affiliation.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-rockets-killed-gaza-civilians-during-war-amnesty-094310033.html
nice try. the friendly fire was accidental.
how many palestinian civilians were intentionally gunned down by the idf again?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i just find it funny that they are keeping score.
but when has friendly fire ever been called a war crime?
at any rate, the six killed in israel is far less than what the idf has killed.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
The UN-defined illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories precedes Hamas' existence. The illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories will likely outlive Hamas' existence. Because the voice of the resistance of the Palestinian territories has been reduced to hodgepodge weaponry, that will be the voice of the next regime which claims to be a path to liberation. Israel will claim this is inappropriate, BS will claim it's inappropriate, the world will claim it's inappropriate, the status quo will remain.
More circles of inactivity and injustice, and no clear way where the cycle can be broken.
And more of this stupid fucking conversation that serves literally no one with a humanitarian bone in his or her body. Without admission of guilt, there can be no alliances, only debate between enemies. When two parties still call each other enemies, there can be no trust, and therefore no peace. Both parties are guilty of this lack of accountability: only one is guilty of lack of accountability for being the cause of the necessity for the other.
Think the guy who says "shoot your friend or I'll shoot you". When the oppressed person shoots his friend, sure he's guilty - but who's responsible?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Edit-and the reason I ask isn't so I can put a fucken yellow star on your sleeve, it's so I can fucken better understand why someone like you gives zero blame on the Israeli regime and shits on anything Palestinian. I'm also beginning to wonder if it was you who flagged my pics from the slaughter of the children in Palestine to have them removed.
The Hateful Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State
Since virtually every comment on Hamas in American media includes the assertion that the group’s Charter rejects Israel’s right to exist, it’s worth noting the following from the Likud Platform of 1999:
a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
(continued in link)
I just find the state of Israel to be a bastardization of Zionist, Jewish, and humanitarian ideals, all of which would find it morally apprehensible to subjugate an indigenous population as a byproduct of creating a Jewish state.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
2) I believe Israel can and should exist as a jewish state and that a Hamas-free Palestinian state can and should exist as well
3) If this makes me a zionist so be it...it is guys like you who try to turn that into a dirty word
4) I didn't flag your pics
5) You swear too much
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
That's a discussion for another thread and another day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
Not meant to be factually accurate, although "exterminated the native population" isn't far off.