Now back to Israel as usual

gimmesometruth27

rr165892 said:

BB,I think this is a really dumb descision by the Israelis.Democracies should remain democratic and keep church and state separate,This will backfire on the Israeli govt IMO.

i am glad they voted the way they did. it shows their true colors and it shows that they have no interest at all in peace.

they made a terrible statement to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is listening. except for the US of course...

benjs

gimmesometruth27 said:

rr165892 said:

BB,I think this is a really dumb descision by the Israelis.Democracies should remain democratic and keep church and state separate,This will backfire on the Israeli govt IMO.

i am glad they voted the way they did. it shows their true colors and it shows that they have no interest at all in peace.

they made a terrible statement to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is listening. except for the US of course...

See article for context: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/26/israeli-president-opposes-proposed-law-of-jewish-rights

Rivlin has impressed me lately... Israel is a far stretch from a poster child for democracy, and there are important topics that still ought to be addressed (i.e. the immigration policy, the Palestinian refugee problem, etc.), but the man regularly addresses the hard topic of societal fragmentation, and he does not deny that Jews are, at the very least somewhat. Being the President of the so-called Jewish state, that's bound to be a less than popular opinion for people to receive, yet he persists. Societal bridging is so crucial, because I would imagine the 'us and them' mentality within the country must be omnipresent these days on the topic of Jews and Arabs. It's hardly a solution to Israel's litany of problems and inequalities, but it's at least a step in the right direction, coming from a position of power.

Rivlin's words do show another crucial issue: what, in his mind, defines a Jewish state is a Jewish majority. Since there are roughly five million Palestinian refugees while Israel's population is about 8 million (2 million of them non-Jews), to extend to the refugees the right to return to the region would mean to potentially sacrifice the majority Jewish population. Thus, the Jewishness of the state would be diminished or revoked entirely (unless Israeli Jews start making babies like their lives depended on it).

A government's first duty is to appease and protect the people, and the Israeli Jewish people hold dearly their identities as members of the Jewish state. This to me reaffirms why societal bridging is crucial: Jews and Arabs within Israel need to stop defining themselves as Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, or Arabs, and start remembering their true identities as humans that express just basic giving a shit about each other. When this happens, Israeli Jews can stop thinking themselves as members of the "Jewish _____" or the "____ State", and only then will justice and equality matter more than identity: if you identify as a human, you aren't betraying your identity by caring for any other human.

fuck

i_lov_it said:

JC29856 said:

Israel and North Korea

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/11/23/israel-americas-biggest-frenemy/

Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.

This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).

I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...

benjs

fuck said:

i_lov_it said:

JC29856 said:

Israel and North Korea

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/11/23/israel-americas-biggest-frenemy/

Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.

This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).

I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...

fuck... I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing that you must find it incredibly frustrating to combat fallacious notions about your people and to fall on deaf ears who will remain steadfast in their beliefs regardless of what you have to say (or evidence to show to the contrary). I can't speak for other Jews here, but frankly, there are people who seem to think that behind every injustice or atrocity in the world is a Jew pulling strings and setting wheels in motion. To try to combat that notion would likely amount to nothing positive, so I'd say the reason this garbage went unchallenged is because of a perception of hopelessness in changing that mentality. I didn't even know the poster had made that ignorant suggestion you're mentioning, but I'm not too surprised, and it seems to fit the character.

As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.

Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.

fuck

benjs said:

fuck said:

i_lov_it said:

JC29856 said:

Israel and North Korea

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/11/23/israel-americas-biggest-frenemy/

Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.

This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).

I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...

fuck... I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing that you must find it incredibly frustrating to combat fallacious notions about your people and to fall on deaf ears who will remain steadfast in their beliefs regardless of what you have to say (or evidence to show to the contrary). I can't speak for other Jews here, but frankly, there are people who seem to think that behind every injustice or atrocity in the world is a Jew pulling strings and setting wheels in motion. To try to combat that notion would likely amount to nothing positive, so I'd say the reason this garbage went unchallenged is because of a perception of hopelessness in changing that mentality. I didn't even know the poster had made that ignorant suggestion you're mentioning, but I'm not too surprised, and it seems to fit the character.

As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.

Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.

Fair enough, but there is a point to be made that those folks who are pro-Israel often tolerate (or ignore) anti-Semitism if it comes from someone who tows the line when it comes to their discourse, as this poster did.

benjs

fuck said:

benjs said:

fuck said:

i_lov_it said:

JC29856 said:

Israel and North Korea

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/11/23/israel-americas-biggest-frenemy/

Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.

This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).

I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...

fuck... I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing that you must find it incredibly frustrating to combat fallacious notions about your people and to fall on deaf ears who will remain steadfast in their beliefs regardless of what you have to say (or evidence to show to the contrary). I can't speak for other Jews here, but frankly, there are people who seem to think that behind every injustice or atrocity in the world is a Jew pulling strings and setting wheels in motion. To try to combat that notion would likely amount to nothing positive, so I'd say the reason this garbage went unchallenged is because of a perception of hopelessness in changing that mentality. I didn't even know the poster had made that ignorant suggestion you're mentioning, but I'm not too surprised, and it seems to fit the character.

As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.

Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.

Fair enough, but there is a point to be made that those folks who are pro-Israel often tolerate (or ignore) anti-Semitism if it comes from someone who tows the line when it comes to their discourse, as this poster did.

We should actively be condemning any form of racism when we perceive it, regardless of where it comes from, so thank you for doing what Jews here failed to do, myself included. I appreciate your unwavering commitment to equality and fair treatment on here, it's always refreshing to see.

yosi

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

badbrains

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

I think the problem is that it's been misused so much (anti-semitism) that it feels watered down. Let's be honest, for a while, ANY criticism of Israel would've been responded with "you're an anti-Semite". I can't stand Israel's government, have no use for them, but I DONT hate the people of Israel. Shit, my people have 2 villages in Israel that I would love to visit one day.

gimmesometruth27

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

badbrains

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.

benjs

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

Am I missing something? I didn't see yosi mention any names in his post at all.

rr165892

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.

Rumour has it Rod is a Anti-Dentite though ))

badbrains

rr165892 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.

Rumour has it Rod is a Anti-Dentite though ))

I heard that rumor as well! )

gimmesometruth27

rr165892 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.

Rumour has it Rod is a Anti-Dentite though ))

yeah those people need to have their own schools...

benjs

badbrains said:

rr165892 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.

Rumour has it Rod is a Anti-Dentite though ))

I heard that rumor as well! )

And who can blame him?

badbrains

benjs said:

badbrains said:

rr165892 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

yosi said:

In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.

lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.

There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.

Rumour has it Rod is a Anti-Dentite though ))

I heard that rumor as well! )

And who can blame him?

I think we're all anti-dentite or however you spell it. >:)

gimmesometruth27

you all are always an anti-dentite, until you need a dentist.... just like lawyers....

JC29856

As if dealing with Israel isn't enough, now their flooded...ask a Jew and they will tell you it's God's plan yet they don't believe in God.

JC29856

fwiw...i grew up studying practicing Judaism, my uncle's a rabbi in nyc. My father's eyes were opened up when he served in the navy during the Cuban misled crises as he calls it. Jewish holidays were interesting to say the least when the elders would burn and compare notes and trade philosophies. So I've been there heard it all. Ultimately i rejected it when started to see the world and realized i was free to decide for myself. Yes i still have many relatives (can't choose family) that won't budge. I'm not invited to ny when they come visit and I'm never invited to visit the holy land. Someday.
We're all better off when we're better off.

badbrains

JC29856 said:

fwiw...i grew up studying practicing Judaism, my uncle's a rabbi in nyc. My father's eyes were opened up when he served in the navy during the Cuban misled crises as he calls it. Jewish holidays were interesting to say the least when the elders would burn and compare notes and trade philosophies. So I've been there heard it all. Ultimately i rejected it when started to see the world and realized i was free to decide for myself. Yes i still have many relatives (can't choose family) that won't budge. I'm not invited to ny when they come visit and I'm never invited to visit the holy land. Someday.
We're all better off when we're better off.

Well, thanks for your honesty and shedding some important light into who you are. This whole time I just knew u as JC. That's pretty wild bro. And I can relate to sort of seeing my religion in a different way as well.