Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
What do you mean we don't believe in Jesus?! Of course we do. He was jewish after all. And how do we know that? Simple....
He lived at home till he was 30 And his mother thought he was god!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
What do you mean we don't believe in Jesus?! Of course we do. He was jewish after all. And how do we know that? Simple....
He lived at home till he was 30 And his mother thought he was god!!
Ba dum bum!!
According to johnnie, Jews don't believe in Jesus. Which I thought was pretty odd.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
First of all, something I learnt very early on is that within Judaism, you have opinions that sometimes conflict with each other based on how much or little a person 'practices', or what subset of Judaism they belong to. A guy went off on me yesterday about how I went to a school that's 'not a real Jewish school' (aka reform Judaism), then asked me why I "don't practice" (aka go to synagogue regularly like a conservative Jew), then told me that bacon was the food he couldn't live without. Jews are notorious for cherry-picking the parts of religion that suit them best. Absolute, my ass.
Some Jews do in fact believe that Jesus was a prophet. Others only recognize Jesus as a fairly irrefutable historical figure. As far as the Christian right goes, don't kid yourself: they are friends to Israel because they want access to Israel. If Israel decided that Christians may no longer go visit Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies regarding the native Arab population unacceptable, and you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies inherently racist.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
First of all, something I learnt very early on is that within Judaism, you have opinions that sometimes conflict with each other based on how much or little a person 'practices', or what subset of Judaism they belong to. A guy went off on me yesterday about how I went to a school that's 'not a real Jewish school' (aka reform Judaism), then asked me why I "don't practice" (aka go to synagogue regularly like a conservative Jew), then told me that bacon was the food he couldn't live without. Jews are notorious for cherry-picking the parts of religion that suit them best. Absolute, my ass.
Some Jews do in fact believe that Jesus was a prophet. Others only recognize Jesus as a fairly irrefutable historical figure. As far as the Christian right goes, don't kid yourself: they are friends to Israel because they want access to Israel. If Israel decided that Christians may no longer go visit Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies regarding the native Arab population unacceptable, and you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies inherently racist.
There is no branch of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as a prophet except for Messianic Jews who are for all intents and purposes Christians. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform which make up greater than 99% of Jews (not including unaffiliated) do not believe in Jesus. Jews do not believe in the second coming and do not believe in the New Testament. This is not, as Ben suggests, a matter of debate.
As far as access to holy sites, since the founding of the State of Israel, this is the first time in history that ALL religions are granted access to their holy sites. I see no reason for cynicism. Contrast this to how Christians are currently being treated in the rest of the middle east, let alone how Jews were treated, and your criticisms hold no water.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,345
Exterminated or exterminating. Not much difference. They just need the bs justifiation while simultaneously diverting attention from further illegal land grabs
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
First of all, something I learnt very early on is that within Judaism, you have opinions that sometimes conflict with each other based on how much or little a person 'practices', or what subset of Judaism they belong to. A guy went off on me yesterday about how I went to a school that's 'not a real Jewish school' (aka reform Judaism), then asked me why I "don't practice" (aka go to synagogue regularly like a conservative Jew), then told me that bacon was the food he couldn't live without. Jews are notorious for cherry-picking the parts of religion that suit them best. Absolute, my ass.
Some Jews do in fact believe that Jesus was a prophet. Others only recognize Jesus as a fairly irrefutable historical figure. As far as the Christian right goes, don't kid yourself: they are friends to Israel because they want access to Israel. If Israel decided that Christians may no longer go visit Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies regarding the native Arab population unacceptable, and you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies inherently racist.
There is no branch of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as a prophet except for Messianic Jews who are for all intents and purposes Christians. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform which make up greater than 99% of Jews (not including unaffiliated) do not believe in Jesus. Jews do not believe in the second coming and do not believe in the New Testament. This is not, as Ben suggests, a matter of debate.
As far as access to holy sites, since the founding of the State of Israel, this is the first time in history that ALL religions are granted access to their holy sites. I see no reason for cynicism. Contrast this to how Christians are currently being treated in the rest of the middle east, let alone how Jews were treated, and your criticisms hold no water.
That's inaccurate and u know it. I suggest any Christian to google "how Christians are treated in Israel" on youtube. Go watch those videos. And let's not pretend the Muslims in Palestine are allowed to practice their religion as they so choose. How many times are they not allowed in their holysites for prayer. How many times do they end up praying on the streets instead?
Sorry man, but your post holds no water for Jesus to walk on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Ever since they exterminated the native population lol That's a discussion for another thread and another day!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
First of all, something I learnt very early on is that within Judaism, you have opinions that sometimes conflict with each other based on how much or little a person 'practices', or what subset of Judaism they belong to. A guy went off on me yesterday about how I went to a school that's 'not a real Jewish school' (aka reform Judaism), then asked me why I "don't practice" (aka go to synagogue regularly like a conservative Jew), then told me that bacon was the food he couldn't live without. Jews are notorious for cherry-picking the parts of religion that suit them best. Absolute, my ass.
Some Jews do in fact believe that Jesus was a prophet. Others only recognize Jesus as a fairly irrefutable historical figure. As far as the Christian right goes, don't kid yourself: they are friends to Israel because they want access to Israel. If Israel decided that Christians may no longer go visit Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies regarding the native Arab population unacceptable, and you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies inherently racist.
There is no branch of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as a prophet except for Messianic Jews who are for all intents and purposes Christians. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform which make up greater than 99% of Jews (not including unaffiliated) do not believe in Jesus. Jews do not believe in the second coming and do not believe in the New Testament. This is not, as Ben suggests, a matter of debate.
As far as access to holy sites, since the founding of the State of Israel, this is the first time in history that ALL religions are granted access to their holy sites. I see no reason for cynicism. Contrast this to how Christians are currently being treated in the rest of the middle east, let alone how Jews were treated, and your criticisms hold no water.
That's inaccurate and u know it. I suggest any Christian to google "how Christians are treated in Israel" on youtube. Go watch those videos. And let's not pretend the Muslims in Palestine are allowed to practice their religion as they so choose. How many times are they not allowed in their holysites for prayer. How many times do they end up praying on the streets instead?
Sorry man, but your post holds no water for Jesus to walk on.
You are correct. The Israeli police do not allow young men to the Temple Mount on certain days because they have a track record of being riled up by hate speech during services and subsequently hurling rocks over the western wall. The restriction is only in effect as a security measure. I'm not going to even debate this nonsense. Prior to the founding of Israel, Jews never had access to their holy sites. When the Muslims were in charge, they suppressed Christians and Jews and centuries ago when the Christians were in charge, they suppressed the others as well. The current conditions are the most open and free for the three religions together in history. This is not hyperbole. It is fact.
This conflict is so far entrenched that both sides just retaliate well that's what it seems anyway maybe there are aggressors on both sides...and with Netanyahu being re-elected what's the deal there...are the People of Israel happy with him were they brainwashed maybe or was it rigged...very interesting though.
Quick detour.I in no way feel like jumping into this thread.But I'm reading a book right now and It's pretty historically accurate for a work of fiction(It's a John Wells Novel by Alex Berenson). They are talking about the right to claim the holy land as there own and the long standing relationship between Muslims and Jews in Israel. They were explaining that the Jews were worshiping on the Temple Mount centuries before The profit was even born.So wouldn't this make Israelies claim of a Jewish homeland not only correct but would put them as the first people on those lands? So what's the argument if one set of peeps was the original land lords?
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,345
No. One of many many peoples in the region BEFORE either Temple was built.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Judaism generally views Jesus as one of a number of Jewish Messiah claimants who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.[2] However, since the mainstream Jewish belief is that the messiah has not yet come and the Messianic Age is not yet present, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism.
Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][4] Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[5] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth,[6] and since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not a candidate for messiah.
Traditional views have been mostly negative, although in the Middle Ages Judah Halevi and Maimonides viewed Jesus (like Muhammad) as an important preparatory figure for a future universal ethical monotheism of the Messianic Age. Some modern Jewish thinkers have sympathetically speculated that the historical Jesus may have been closer to Judaism than either the Gospels or traditional Jewish accounts would indicate, starting in the 18th century with the Orthodox Jacob Emden and the reformer Moses Mendelssohn, and this view, though rare in Orthodox Judaism, has become relatively common in Progressive Judaism.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jewish people not supposed to have a land until Jesus returns? Wasn't that what god says in their beliefs? Serious question.
Ben, to me you're a human being. And a smart one at that. I don't really look at you as a Jew or Zionist. You have to much compassion for people to be any religion my friend. Lol
Jews don't believe in Jesus, so not sure what you meant by that. If you meant the Jewish messiah, that view about not being allowed to return is only held by a fringe chasidic sect. In reality, there have always been Jews living there for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Jews don't believe in Jesus? Really? But yet Muslims DO believe in Jesus. And yet the Christian right supports Israel. Strange indeed. I honestly didn't know Jews didn't believe in Jesus.
First of all, something I learnt very early on is that within Judaism, you have opinions that sometimes conflict with each other based on how much or little a person 'practices', or what subset of Judaism they belong to. A guy went off on me yesterday about how I went to a school that's 'not a real Jewish school' (aka reform Judaism), then asked me why I "don't practice" (aka go to synagogue regularly like a conservative Jew), then told me that bacon was the food he couldn't live without. Jews are notorious for cherry-picking the parts of religion that suit them best. Absolute, my ass.
Some Jews do in fact believe that Jesus was a prophet. Others only recognize Jesus as a fairly irrefutable historical figure. As far as the Christian right goes, don't kid yourself: they are friends to Israel because they want access to Israel. If Israel decided that Christians may no longer go visit Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies regarding the native Arab population unacceptable, and you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies inherently racist.
There is no branch of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as a prophet except for Messianic Jews who are for all intents and purposes Christians. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform which make up greater than 99% of Jews (not including unaffiliated) do not believe in Jesus. Jews do not believe in the second coming and do not believe in the New Testament. This is not, as Ben suggests, a matter of debate.
As far as access to holy sites, since the founding of the State of Israel, this is the first time in history that ALL religions are granted access to their holy sites. I see no reason for cynicism. Contrast this to how Christians are currently being treated in the rest of the middle east, let alone how Jews were treated, and your criticisms hold no water.
I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).
As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.
In any case, this is a hell of a tangent, and hugely irrelevant.
As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,345
Should have read the fine print. Of course its an engagement double standards. Hell triple standards. Seems to be a class system within jewish residents too.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.
there is a lot of that going around these days.
see the outright hatred of immigrants in the US. the way certain politicians and certain groups talk about them reminds me of something out of gangs of new york.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.
there is a lot of that going around these days.
see the outright hatred of immigrants in the US. the way certain politicians and certain groups talk about them reminds me of something out of gangs of new york.
Australia houses their asylum seekers on nauru.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).
As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.
I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.
As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.
I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:
“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”
And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.
I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).
As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.
I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.
As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.
I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:
“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”
And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.
Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.
Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.
Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.
Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.
You are right, Assad isn't targeting Christians specifically. They are actually supporting him because he is better than the alternative (ISIS) who are actively murdering Christians. You also conveniently completely ignored the rest of my comment in order to pick on this one point. No mention of the Coptic Christians in Egypt, huh?
Yes, go ahead and Google how Christians are treated. You will find assholes being assholes. This isn't news. Many of these videos are also shot in ultra-hasidic neighborhoods were all outsiders are treated as such (which I personally think is terrible and do not condone.) Many of these neighborhoods were well established in the 19th century or earlier and view even modern Israelis as unwelcome. Why don't you actually ask Christians who have been to Israel if they felt welcome? Or if they had access to their holy sites. Have you ever been to Israel or is your opinion formulated via YouTube and eletricintifada.com? How about we go and ask all Christians in Israel if they would rather live in Israel or any other country in the entire Middle East, Asia, or Africa? What do you think they would say?
I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).
As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.
I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.
As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.
I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:
“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”
And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.
Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.
Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.
I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).
As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.
I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.
As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.
I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:
“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”
And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.
Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.
Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.
To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.
So basically your saying Israel are contradicting themselves or Hypocritical maybe which is interesting.
Comments
Of course we do. He was jewish after all.
And how do we know that? Simple....
He lived at home till he was 30
And his mother thought he was god!!
Ba dum bum!!
Some Jews do in fact believe that Jesus was a prophet. Others only recognize Jesus as a fairly irrefutable historical figure. As far as the Christian right goes, don't kid yourself: they are friends to Israel because they want access to Israel. If Israel decided that Christians may no longer go visit Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies regarding the native Arab population unacceptable, and you'd better believe they'd find Israeli policies inherently racist.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
As far as access to holy sites, since the founding of the State of Israel, this is the first time in history that ALL religions are granted access to their holy sites. I see no reason for cynicism. Contrast this to how Christians are currently being treated in the rest of the middle east, let alone how Jews were treated, and your criticisms hold no water.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Sorry man, but your post holds no water for Jesus to walk on.
They are talking about the right to claim the holy land as there own and the long standing relationship between Muslims and Jews in Israel.
They were explaining that the Jews were worshiping on the Temple Mount centuries before The profit was even born.So wouldn't this make Israelies claim of a Jewish homeland not only correct but would put them as the first people on those lands?
So what's the argument if one set of peeps was the original land lords?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
Judaism generally views Jesus as one of a number of Jewish Messiah claimants who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.[2] However, since the mainstream Jewish belief is that the messiah has not yet come and the Messianic Age is not yet present, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism.
Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][4] Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[5] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth,[6] and since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not a candidate for messiah.
Traditional views have been mostly negative, although in the Middle Ages Judah Halevi and Maimonides viewed Jesus (like Muhammad) as an important preparatory figure for a future universal ethical monotheism of the Messianic Age. Some modern Jewish thinkers have sympathetically speculated that the historical Jesus may have been closer to Judaism than either the Gospels or traditional Jewish accounts would indicate, starting in the 18th century with the Orthodox Jacob Emden and the reformer Moses Mendelssohn, and this view, though rare in Orthodox Judaism, has become relatively common in Progressive Judaism.
As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.
In any case, this is a hell of a tangent, and hugely irrelevant.
As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
see the outright hatred of immigrants in the US. the way certain politicians and certain groups talk about them reminds me of something out of gangs of new york.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”
And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.
Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.
Yes, go ahead and Google how Christians are treated. You will find assholes being assholes. This isn't news. Many of these videos are also shot in ultra-hasidic neighborhoods were all outsiders are treated as such (which I personally think is terrible and do not condone.) Many of these neighborhoods were well established in the 19th century or earlier and view even modern Israelis as unwelcome. Why don't you actually ask Christians who have been to Israel if they felt welcome? Or if they had access to their holy sites. Have you ever been to Israel or is your opinion formulated via YouTube and eletricintifada.com? How about we go and ask all Christians in Israel if they would rather live in Israel or any other country in the entire Middle East, Asia, or Africa? What do you think they would say?
Nothing happened
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com//news/world/israel-middle-east/isis-fighters-clash-with-palestinians-in-refugee-camp-in-syrias-capital-as-jordan-closes-its-border
This is more evidence of islamic radicals trying to take full control of the Palestinian liberation movement.
#beatsbydreadel LMAO