All songs are open for individual interpretation, of course. But John Lennon did NOT intend it to mean anything that the OP thinks it does.
Open you mind, man, instead of closing it completely. Which you are doing.
I would say I'm more open minded to the song and lyrics than most. Im getting bashed for actually having a different interpretation than others. Yes, I am closed minded...
In response to this, I quoted an earlier post. You are not the bashee.
All songs are open for individual interpretation, of course. But John Lennon did NOT intend it to mean anything that the OP thinks it does.
Open you mind, man, instead of closing it completely. Which you are doing.
I would say I'm more open minded to the song and lyrics than most. Im getting bashed for actually having a different interpretation than others. Yes, I am closed minded...
In response to this, I quoted an earlier post. You are not the bashee.
Obviously I'm not the bashee. I'm the bashed here. I'm finding it hard to follow the trail you are making. Very random, and not clearly defined.
All songs are open for individual interpretation, of course. But John Lennon did NOT intend it to mean anything that the OP thinks it does.
Open you mind, man, instead of closing it completely. Which you are doing.
I would say I'm more open minded to the song and lyrics than most. Im getting bashed for actually having a different interpretation than others. Yes, I am closed minded...
In response to this, I quoted an earlier post. You are not the bashee.
Obviously I'm not the bashee. I'm the bashed here. I'm finding it hard to follow the trail you are making. Very random, and not clearly defined.
I got about a third of the way through reading this thread this morning and the bolded words sum up perfectly my thoughts. Imagine that.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
All songs are open for individual interpretation, of course. But John Lennon did NOT intend it to mean anything that the OP thinks it does.
Open you mind, man, instead of closing it completely. Which you are doing.
I would say I'm more open minded to the song and lyrics than most. Im getting bashed for actually having a different interpretation than others. Yes, I am closed minded...
In response to this, I quoted an earlier post. You are not the bashee.
Obviously I'm not the bashee. I'm the bashed here. I'm finding it hard to follow the trail you are making. Very random, and not clearly defined.
Sorry I couldn't be clearer for you.
Anyway, A Perfect Circle covered it awhile back; apt illustrations of the many realms of gluttony mentioned in the song.
To clarify things, this is my opinion of the song and why I feel the way I do about (thanks brianlux)
The world and ideas of the song Imagine when I really think about it, is a scary world. It's a world where we all agree on everything. I know people will say that's a rather large generalization. But imagining no religion, no boarders, no possessions are very large generalizations in themselves. Expecially if you you actually think of what each of those really are. Religion = personal choice to believe in anything they choose. Boarders = security. Your home, what makes you feel secure. Possessions = your things. The things that you work hard for to acquire. Goes beyond consumables, to things you want and you save for. The world of imagine being absent of these just three things, leaves us with what? It strikes me as a scary state to live in. I feel much more is lost in that society than is achieved.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
I think what mattsl is saying is that there are certain conditions with Lennon's song that he would be very uncomfortable living within. It occurred to me that couldn't honestly say I agree or dissagree with the entire song so I looked at it and concluded this:
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky
Not hard at all to imagine this.
Imagine all the people Living for today
Good thought but I also think it's useful to plan ahead and think about tomorrow. I'm not very good at Buddhist thinking, but I respect the idea.
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion, too
Countries are arbitrary political borders. Bio-regional borders are real and make more sense. Native American spirituality is the closest to a religion that I can go with- but even that to me is spiritual, not religion.
Imagine all the people Living life in peace
A great and wonderful goal.
You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one
I've never fully understood this idea in a cultural or sociological sense but in terms of Gaia, we're already there, we just don't know it.
Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man
No possessions- sorry to say, very hard to imagine. No greed or hunger- easy to imagine. Brotherhood of man- maybe within one's community and definitely with women too.
Imagine all the people Sharing all the world
Possible if the world's population were much smaller.
You, you may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will live as one
Hope is always good.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
But how does not having a religion, or borders, or being able to share your possessions translate to "us all agreeing on everything"? It sounds more like us all getting along, which IS the point
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
As mentioned earlier, the lyrics could be taken literally or with a few grains of symbolism.
As I mentioned earlier, most wouldn't want some homogenized world.
It's more about the values we place on some of these things, senses of entitlement, senses of being better than another whether due to religion or what someone owns, and on.
It's not about those THINGS, it's about us and what we do with what we have - and what we don't have.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
But how does not having a religion, or borders, or being able to share your possessions translate to "us all agreeing on everything"? It sounds more like us all getting along, which IS the point
That makes sense. It would make sense to me to say, "Imagine everybody accepting that other people have their own religious or non-religious beliefs and that they do not infringe on your well being or your own beliefs./ Imagine having your own stuff but only such that others have what they need as well and being willing to share what you have." But that would make a really shitty lyric. :-D
Getting along. I can definitely imagine that.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
All songs are open for individual interpretation, of course. But John Lennon did NOT intend it to mean anything that the OP thinks it does.
Open you mind, man, instead of closing it completely. Which you are doing.
I would say I'm more open minded to the song and lyrics than most. Im getting bashed for actually having a different interpretation than others. Yes, I am closed minded...
In response to this, I quoted an earlier post. You are not the bashee.
Obviously I'm not the bashee. I'm the bashed here. I'm finding it hard to follow the trail you are making. Very random, and not clearly defined.
Sorry I couldn't be clearer for you.
Anyway, A Perfect Circle covered it awhile back; apt illustrations of the many realms of gluttony mentioned in the song.
I like apc version best. Gloomy and dark. Just like the world really is.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
You know, this kind of ties into your other thread, matt. The one about changing the world.
The vastness of all that needs changing and fixing, it's overwhelming. Goes beyond the simple premises of the song.
Animal abuse, female circumcision, wastefulness, domestic violence, rape, people like the two fuckwad teenagers who beat 900 chickens with golf clubs, pedophilia, dude who fucked a horse, the Bundys and Gacys and Dahmers of the world. I could go on.
It goes way beyond just getting along. Some cycles need to be examined, dealt with, stopped.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
All songs are open for individual interpretation, of course. But John Lennon did NOT intend it to mean anything that the OP thinks it does.
Open you mind, man, instead of closing it completely. Which you are doing.
I would say I'm more open minded to the song and lyrics than most. Im getting bashed for actually having a different interpretation than others. Yes, I am closed minded...
In response to this, I quoted an earlier post. You are not the bashee.
Obviously I'm not the bashee. I'm the bashed here. I'm finding it hard to follow the trail you are making. Very random, and not clearly defined.
Sorry I couldn't be clearer for you.
Anyway, A Perfect Circle covered it awhile back; apt illustrations of the many realms of gluttony mentioned in the song.
I think what mattsl is saying is that there are certain conditions with Lennon's song that he would be very uncomfortable living within. It occurred to me that couldn't honestly say I agree or dissagree with the entire song so I looked at it and concluded this:
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky
Not hard at all to imagine this.
Imagine all the people Living for today
Good thought but I also think it's useful to plan ahead and think about tomorrow. I'm not very good at Buddhist thinking, but I respect the idea.
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion, too
Countries are arbitrary political borders. Bio-regional borders are real and make more sense. Native American spirituality is the closest to a religion that I can go with- but even that to me is spiritual, not religion.
Imagine all the people Living life in peace
A great and wonderful goal.
You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one
I've never fully understood this idea in a cultural or sociological sense but in terms of Gaia, we're already there, we just don't know it.
Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man
No possessions- sorry to say, very hard to imagine. No greed or hunger- easy to imagine. Brotherhood of man- maybe within one's community and definitely with women too.
Imagine all the people Sharing all the world
Possible if the world's population were much smaller.
You, you may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will live as one
Hope is always good.
John Lennon 'walked the walk' as much as any big time performer... but it was a hell of a lot easier for him to lie around in bed all day with his wife and talk about how life should be than it is for me.
As you have said here, Brian... short of cutting out and going Chris McCandless... most of us are pressed into answering the bell each day.
I always got the idea of 'acceptance' and 'tolerance' vs. uniformity from this song.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
You know, this kind of ties into your other thread, matt. The one about changing the world.
The vastness of all that needs changing and fixing, it's overwhelming. Goes beyond the simple premises of the song.
Animal abuse, female circumcision, wastefulness, domestic violence, rape, people like the two fuckwad teenagers who beat 900 chickens with golf clubs, pedophilia, dude who fucked a horse, the Bundys and Gacys and Dahmers of the world. I could go on.
It goes way beyond just getting along. Some cycles need to be examined, dealt with, stopped.
Yeah, that and what rollings said about getting along. That's the heart of the matter. When broken down to it's parts like I did, I think the song itself is a bit naive and unrealistic but I also think breaking it down is not very useful nor is saying it is unrealistic. The general themes of the song- getting along, making the world better- are what make it a kind of anthem and it works well that way. The specifics can only be dealt with more concretely but the overall hope of the song is what makes it work.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
You know, this kind of ties into your other thread, matt. The one about changing the world.
The vastness of all that needs changing and fixing, it's overwhelming. Goes beyond the simple premises of the song.
Animal abuse, female circumcision, wastefulness, domestic violence, rape, people like the two fuckwad teenagers who beat 900 chickens with golf clubs, pedophilia, dude who fucked a horse, the Bundys and Gacys and Dahmers of the world. I could go on.
It goes way beyond just getting along. Some cycles need to be examined, dealt with, stopped.
Yeah, that and what rollings said about getting along. That's the heart of the matter. When broken down to it's parts like I did, I think the song itself is a bit naive and unrealistic but I also think breaking it down is not very useful nor is saying it is unrealistic. The general themes of the song- getting along, making the world better- are what make it a kind of anthem and it works well that way. The specifics can only be dealt with more concretely but the overall hope of the song is what makes it work.
I'm cool with hope. When I've turned to it in times of emotional need, it helped. I may have reached out to something beyond myself, but I think myself, in that mindset, is what got me through.
(I know that may make no sense to anyone else but me )
Maybe we're a melange of hope (faith? searching for strength?) and realism. Somewhere in between.
As complex as we can be...we're also some simple motherfuckers.
To clarify things, this is my opinion of the song and why I feel the way I do about (thanks brianlux)
The world and ideas of the song Imagine when I really think about it, is a scary world. It's a world where we all agree on everything. I know people will say that's a rather large generalization. But imagining no religion, no boarders, no possessions are very large generalizations in themselves. Expecially if you you actually think of what each of those really are. Religion = personal choice to believe in anything they choose. Boarders = security. Your home, what makes you feel secure. Possessions = your things. The things that you work hard for to acquire. Goes beyond consumables, to things you want and you save for. The world of imagine being absent of these just three things, leaves us with what? It strikes me as a scary state to live in. I feel much more is lost in that society than is achieved.
Imagining anything isn't generalizing, it's just that: imagining. The song comes with the implication that it's a hypothetical construct with a set of rules or traits (as provided when Lennon tells you just what to imagine, similar to when in the Beatles days he suggested that you "picture yourself in a boat on a river, with tangerine trees, and marmalade skies).
I suspect we have different opinions on religion's primary objective. I don't know about your religion, but the religion I was born into has ten famous commandments, but a total of 613 "do"s and "don't"s for life. That doesn't seem to promote freedom of belief or thought - especially when "Thou shalt have no other gods" is one of the major ten (which, like George Carlin, I believe should be significantly fewer than ten - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8).
Your next issue is borders, but Lennon's song doesn't refer to borders at all - it refers to countries. If you have no countries, you have no nationalist pride. If you have no nationalist pride, people protect people, instead of Americans protecting Americans. If you have people protecting people without divisiveness, you have no need for the security that borders bring which would only serve to isolate and create segregation.
The next point is interesting: possessions. We use materialism to express individuality (i.e. the phone I choose, the clothes I wear, the car I drive, etc.). That being said, materialism and possession are two different entities, and Lennon calls for sharing. If he was anti-materialism, we would have nothing to share. So, to me, it reads as his attempt to preach in favour of a generous new world where we're less concerned with ownership, and actually as a byproduct, probably even more about self-expression than the current state of affairs ("you like this ____? It cost me $25,000", or "you like this _____? Borrow it for a few days, it looks great on you!")
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find any of these notions to be remotely scary, or oppressive. What I will say is that I find them to be highly naive and idealistic, and I suspect they're probably infeasible in a world where religion, nationalism, and ego have such traction.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
What's a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot?
Fucking classic.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
edited October 2014
^^^ Nicely said benjs. And thanks for the Carlin laugh- always perks me up, especially when fighting a nasty case of Ebola. (Naww, just trying to shake things up but I do have some friggin bug holding me down.)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
To clarify things, this is my opinion of the song and why I feel the way I do about (thanks brianlux)
The world and ideas of the song Imagine when I really think about it, is a scary world. It's a world where we all agree on everything. I know people will say that's a rather large generalization. But imagining no religion, no boarders, no possessions are very large generalizations in themselves. Expecially if you you actually think of what each of those really are. Religion = personal choice to believe in anything they choose. Boarders = security. Your home, what makes you feel secure. Possessions = your things. The things that you work hard for to acquire. Goes beyond consumables, to things you want and you save for. The world of imagine being absent of these just three things, leaves us with what? It strikes me as a scary state to live in. I feel much more is lost in that society than is achieved.
Regardless of how you choose to interpret the song, it was not written to be interpreted the way you are choosing to interpret it. Understand that.
Many artists (like EV, as he's mentioned over the years that his songs are up to the listener's interpretation) choose to leave their songs open for interpretation. But Imagine has a clear agenda from its writer and we know what he meant when he wrote it. It's about imagining a world with no conflict, imagining no religion to separate humanity and using it to create conflict, imagining not using the borders that separate us to cause conflict, and (gasp!) imagining that our possessions don't define us (and cause conflict). It's no secret that Lennon was a powerful peace advocate, idealistic in nature and choosing to imagine the possibility that we could overcome ourselves as adversaries and actually get along world-wide as a possible hopeful idea, if not a reality. It's that idea, that we could erase these circumstances that causes us to find fault with each other, divide us and keep us at war with one another on a global level that the song is about.
The ability of someone to rip apart this song, and make it something that it is completely not, makes no sense to me. It's the most simplistic idea, yet some insist on not comprehending it. You are not being idealistic or open minded, OP, John Lennon was.
Imagine not being offended by things that had no intention to offend.
I think the world can live in peace like a musical masterpiece or heaps of them , harmoniously composed with no chaotic mess ups, yes I can imagine it a possibility, there's an old dance song I don't really like but it's true "" rhythm is a dancer"" by Snap when things turn out nicely you never say I could get sick of this, just like you don't get sick of your meals,shit and sleep each day.. That's my 2 bob
You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis. I'm not passing judgement or saying I don't fall into the trap myself, but MANY, many people think that they are what they own.
Post edited by ikiT on
Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,001
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
Anyway, A Perfect Circle covered it awhile back; apt illustrations of the many realms of gluttony mentioned in the song.
The world and ideas of the song Imagine when I really think about it, is a scary world. It's a world where we all agree on everything. I know people will say that's a rather large generalization. But imagining no religion, no boarders, no possessions are very large generalizations in themselves. Expecially if you you actually think of what each of those really are. Religion = personal choice to believe in anything they choose. Boarders = security. Your home, what makes you feel secure. Possessions = your things. The things that you work hard for to acquire. Goes beyond consumables, to things you want and you save for. The world of imagine being absent of these just three things, leaves us with what? It strikes me as a scary state to live in. I feel much more is lost in that society than is achieved.
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Not hard at all to imagine this.
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Good thought but I also think it's useful to plan ahead and think about tomorrow. I'm not very good at Buddhist thinking, but I respect the idea.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Countries are arbitrary political borders. Bio-regional borders are real and make more sense. Native American spirituality is the closest to a religion that I can go with- but even that to me is spiritual, not religion.
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
A great and wonderful goal.
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will be as one
I've never fully understood this idea in a cultural or sociological sense but in terms of Gaia, we're already there, we just don't know it.
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
No possessions- sorry to say, very hard to imagine.
No greed or hunger- easy to imagine.
Brotherhood of man- maybe within one's community and definitely with women too.
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
Possible if the world's population were much smaller.
You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one
Hope is always good.
As I mentioned earlier, most wouldn't want some homogenized world.
It's more about the values we place on some of these things, senses of entitlement, senses of being better than another whether due to religion or what someone owns, and on.
It's not about those THINGS, it's about us and what we do with what we have - and what we don't have.
Getting along. I can definitely imagine that.
The vastness of all that needs changing and fixing, it's overwhelming. Goes beyond the simple premises of the song.
Animal abuse, female circumcision, wastefulness, domestic violence, rape, people like the two fuckwad teenagers who beat 900 chickens with golf clubs, pedophilia, dude who fucked a horse, the Bundys and Gacys and Dahmers of the world. I could go on.
It goes way beyond just getting along. Some cycles need to be examined, dealt with, stopped.
But yes, BB. Me as well. Its somberness hits home.
(love the dolphins too)
As you have said here, Brian... short of cutting out and going Chris McCandless... most of us are pressed into answering the bell each day.
I always got the idea of 'acceptance' and 'tolerance' vs. uniformity from this song.
(I know that may make no sense to anyone else but me
Maybe we're a melange of hope (faith? searching for strength?) and realism. Somewhere in between.
As complex as we can be...we're also some simple motherfuckers.
I suspect we have different opinions on religion's primary objective. I don't know about your religion, but the religion I was born into has ten famous commandments, but a total of 613 "do"s and "don't"s for life. That doesn't seem to promote freedom of belief or thought - especially when "Thou shalt have no other gods" is one of the major ten (which, like George Carlin, I believe should be significantly fewer than ten -
Your next issue is borders, but Lennon's song doesn't refer to borders at all - it refers to countries. If you have no countries, you have no nationalist pride. If you have no nationalist pride, people protect people, instead of Americans protecting Americans. If you have people protecting people without divisiveness, you have no need for the security that borders bring which would only serve to isolate and create segregation.
The next point is interesting: possessions. We use materialism to express individuality (i.e. the phone I choose, the clothes I wear, the car I drive, etc.). That being said, materialism and possession are two different entities, and Lennon calls for sharing. If he was anti-materialism, we would have nothing to share. So, to me, it reads as his attempt to preach in favour of a generous new world where we're less concerned with ownership, and actually as a byproduct, probably even more about self-expression than the current state of affairs ("you like this ____? It cost me $25,000", or "you like this _____? Borrow it for a few days, it looks great on you!")
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find any of these notions to be remotely scary, or oppressive. What I will say is that I find them to be highly naive and idealistic, and I suspect they're probably infeasible in a world where religion, nationalism, and ego have such traction.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Fucking classic.
Many artists (like EV, as he's mentioned over the years that his songs are up to the listener's interpretation) choose to leave their songs open for interpretation. But Imagine has a clear agenda from its writer and we know what he meant when he wrote it. It's about imagining a world with no conflict, imagining no religion to separate humanity and using it to create conflict, imagining not using the borders that separate us to cause conflict, and (gasp!) imagining that our possessions don't define us (and cause conflict). It's no secret that Lennon was a powerful peace advocate, idealistic in nature and choosing to imagine the possibility that we could overcome ourselves as adversaries and actually get along world-wide as a possible hopeful idea, if not a reality. It's that idea, that we could erase these circumstances that causes us to find fault with each other, divide us and keep us at war with one another on a global level that the song is about.
The ability of someone to rip apart this song, and make it something that it is completely not, makes no sense to me. It's the most simplistic idea, yet some insist on not comprehending it. You are not being idealistic or open minded, OP, John Lennon was.
Imagine not being offended by things that had no intention to offend.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Then I thought, why would I want to?
You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis.
I'm not passing judgement or saying I don't fall into the trap myself, but MANY, many people think that they are what they own.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Thank you