Police abuse

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  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    Good opinion piece in the Boston Globe today on accountability. This process is infuriating.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/23/opinion/how-reduce-police-violence-boston/?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true


  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158

  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
  • static111static111 Posts: 725
    pjl44 said:
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
    Wow.  How are you gonna reform a system like that? Seems like it really is time to look for an alternative.
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
    Wow.  How are you gonna reform a system like that? Seems like it really is time to look for an alternative.
    I could be wrong, but I think we're at a bit of an inflection point. Things have been way out of control for a while and I think there is support for big police reforms that could actually make a difference. But if the same people and same excuses continue to get in the way, I think support for blowing the whole thing up will grow.
  • static111static111 Posts: 725
    pjl44 said:
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
    Wow.  How are you gonna reform a system like that? Seems like it really is time to look for an alternative.
    I could be wrong, but I think we're at a bit of an inflection point. Things have been way out of control for a while and I think there is support for big police reforms that could actually make a difference. But if the same people and same excuses continue to get in the way, I think support for blowing the whole thing up will grow.
    Which is why people are saying the hated slogan Defund The Police.  I mean how many times can you reform and reinvent etc and have it not work before people just see the word reform as dirty and ineffectual?
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 2,422
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
    Wow.  How are you gonna reform a system like that? Seems like it really is time to look for an alternative.
    I could be wrong, but I think we're at a bit of an inflection point. Things have been way out of control for a while and I think there is support for big police reforms that could actually make a difference. But if the same people and same excuses continue to get in the way, I think support for blowing the whole thing up will grow.
    Which is why people are saying the hated slogan Defund The Police.  I mean how many times can you reform and reinvent etc and have it not work before people just see the word reform as dirty and ineffectual?
    Yeah, it's tough.  Maybe I'm just a white guy from the suburbs, but the idea of trying to just eliminate the police (and I know that's not what "defund" is) is unsettling.  The kind of changes that I feel like are needed, though will probably take a long, long time and I understand why blacks that feel their lives are in danger every time they're near a cop don't have the patience (or trust) for long-term change.

    So everything I'm thinking about, which is a long game, I am thinking about from a position of...wait for it...it exists...privilege.  I saw an interesting stat about the sheer number of people killed by US police vs. those killed by police in other countries...and it isn't even close.  Some of those countries needed years of training (like going to college) and I was taken about by the minimal training police need here. There's a huge cultural shift that needs to be made in terms of their mentality ("enforce" vs. "protect/serve"), etc.  Changing a culture is difficult without blowing it up and starting over.  It's difficult.
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    edited June 24
    Yikes. Not sure if this was posted here. But this is from last August. The bottom tweet is the incident with the cops. 





    Damn shame this didn't get any attention then. This kid would have been a much better face of all of this than George Floyd. Here's a petition to try and get them to reopen the case....

    http://chng.it/b9PGMzfnNM
    Post edited by Ledbetterman10 on
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  • static111static111 Posts: 725
    Yikes. Not sure if this was posted here. But this is from last August. The bottom tweet is the incident with the cops. 





    Damn shame this didn't get any attention then. This kid would have been a much better face of all of this than George Floyd. Here's a petition to try and get them to reopen the case....

    http://chng.it/b9PGMzfnNM
    Holy fuck.  They injected him with ketamine on top of the restraining. For wearing a jacket and ski mask....and the officers still serve.  How did this not make the news when it happened?  As for George Floyd being the face of the movement I’m still fine with that.  Everyone deserves to try to do better and not be forever in debt to prior criminal charges that they have paid for.  The goal is for convicts to be reformed and it sounds like he was doing just that.  He (unfortunately for him) was the one that was there when the cameras were rolling and the tipping point was reached.  
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    static111 said:
    Yikes. Not sure if this was posted here. But this is from last August. The bottom tweet is the incident with the cops. 





    Damn shame this didn't get any attention then. This kid would have been a much better face of all of this than George Floyd. Here's a petition to try and get them to reopen the case....

    http://chng.it/b9PGMzfnNM
    Holy fuck.  They injected him with ketamine on top of the restraining. For wearing a jacket and ski mask....and the officers still serve.  How did this not make the news when it happened?  As for George Floyd being the face of the movement I’m still fine with that.  Everyone deserves to try to do better and not be forever in debt to prior criminal charges that they have paid for.  The goal is for convicts to be reformed and it sounds like he was doing just that.  He (unfortunately for him) was the one that was there when the cameras were rolling and the tipping point was reached.  
    I didn't even notice the ketamine mention on the petition site. Unbelievable. As for Floyd being the face of this, I guess Dave Chappelle said it best, "We didn't choose him. You [the cops, presumably] did."
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  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
    Wow.  How are you gonna reform a system like that? Seems like it really is time to look for an alternative.
    I could be wrong, but I think we're at a bit of an inflection point. Things have been way out of control for a while and I think there is support for big police reforms that could actually make a difference. But if the same people and same excuses continue to get in the way, I think support for blowing the whole thing up will grow.
    Which is why people are saying the hated slogan Defund The Police.  I mean how many times can you reform and reinvent etc and have it not work before people just see the word reform as dirty and ineffectual?
    So Defund The Police does mean eliminate all funding for police? Weren't you arguing the opposite the other day?
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    If you have some time, give this a read. I promise it delivers from start to finish.


  • tbergstbergs Posts: 6,924
    edited June 24
    pjl44 said:
    If you have some time, give this a read. I promise it delivers from start to finish.


    I have a lot to say, but not enough time to say it. This article exemplifies an extremist stance where now no one calls the police for anything, but nothing also changes with the situations presented. All I can think of is Hamsterdam from The Wire, only there are no cops to monitor the situation and no one is bringing in human services to help those in need.

    This part of the story really stands out as well. Fearing for the safety of 2 people who tried to rob you at gunpoint...

    Mitchell Erickson’s fingers began dialing 911 last week before he had a chance to even consider alternatives, when two black teenagers who looked to be 15, at most, cornered him outside his home a block away from the park.

    One of the boys pointed a gun at Mr. Erickson’s chest, demanding his car keys.

    Flustered, Mr. Erickson handed over a set, but it turned out to be house keys. The teenagers got frustrated and ran off, then stole a different car down the street.

    Mr. Erickson said later that he would not cooperate with prosecutors in a case against the boys. After the altercation, he realized that if there was anything he wanted, it was to offer them help. But he still felt it had been right to call the authorities because there was a gun involved.

    Two days after an initial conversation, his position had evolved. “Been thinking more about it,” he wrote in a text message. “I regret calling the police. It was my instinct but I wish it hadn’t been. I put those boys in danger of death by calling the cops.”

    What about the fact that the boys had put his life in danger?

    “Yeah I know and yeah it was scary but the cops didn’t really have much to add after I called them,” he replied. “I haven’t been forced to think like this before. So I would have lost my car. So what? At least no one would have been killed.”

    It's a hopeless situation...
  • static111static111 Posts: 725
    pjl44 said:
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    static111 said:
    pjl44 said:
    Interesting. AP has a story on the same topic today with national examples.

    https://apnews.com/d098a19c1c34749d763fd57a721d9e1d?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
    Wow.  How are you gonna reform a system like that? Seems like it really is time to look for an alternative.
    I could be wrong, but I think we're at a bit of an inflection point. Things have been way out of control for a while and I think there is support for big police reforms that could actually make a difference. But if the same people and same excuses continue to get in the way, I think support for blowing the whole thing up will grow.
    Which is why people are saying the hated slogan Defund The Police.  I mean how many times can you reform and reinvent etc and have it not work before people just see the word reform as dirty and ineffectual?
    So Defund The Police does mean eliminate all funding for police? Weren't you arguing the opposite the other day?
    i still say it doesn't mean abolish the police
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 10,090
    static111 said:
    Yikes. Not sure if this was posted here. But this is from last August. The bottom tweet is the incident with the cops. 





    Damn shame this didn't get any attention then. This kid would have been a much better face of all of this than George Floyd. Here's a petition to try and get them to reopen the case....

    http://chng.it/b9PGMzfnNM
    Holy fuck.  They injected him with ketamine on top of the restraining. For wearing a jacket and ski mask....and the officers still serve.  How did this not make the news when it happened?  As for George Floyd being the face of the movement I’m still fine with that.  Everyone deserves to try to do better and not be forever in debt to prior criminal charges that they have paid for.  The goal is for convicts to be reformed and it sounds like he was doing just that.  He (unfortunately for him) was the one that was there when the cameras were rolling and the tipping point was reached.  
    I didn't even notice the ketamine mention on the petition site. Unbelievable. As for Floyd being the face of this, I guess Dave Chappelle said it best, "We didn't choose him. You [the cops, presumably] did."
    I don't remember hearing anything about this story....horribly sad
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  • cutzcutz Posts: 9,141
    static111 said:
    Yikes. Not sure if this was posted here. But this is from last August. The bottom tweet is the incident with the cops. 





    Damn shame this didn't get any attention then. This kid would have been a much better face of all of this than George Floyd. Here's a petition to try and get them to reopen the case....

    http://chng.it/b9PGMzfnNM
    Holy fuck.  They injected him with ketamine on top of the restraining. For wearing a jacket and ski mask....and the officers still serve.  How did this not make the news when it happened?  As for George Floyd being the face of the movement I’m still fine with that.  Everyone deserves to try to do better and not be forever in debt to prior criminal charges that they have paid for.  The goal is for convicts to be reformed and it sounds like he was doing just that.  He (unfortunately for him) was the one that was there when the cameras were rolling and the tipping point was reached.  
    I didn't even notice the ketamine mention on the petition site. Unbelievable. As for Floyd being the face of this, I guess Dave Chappelle said it best, "We didn't choose him. You [the cops, presumably] did."
    I don't remember hearing anything about this story....horribly sad
    I don't remember this story either.  Why did they inject him with that Drug? 

    Real sad. 


  • cutzcutz Posts: 9,141
    I know I haven't seen this one on the News either. Unless I missed it?

    https://www.columbiatribune.com/news/20200616/patrol-no-gun-found-in-car-of-missouri-woman-shot-by-deputy
  • static111static111 Posts: 725
    cutz said:
    static111 said:
    Yikes. Not sure if this was posted here. But this is from last August. The bottom tweet is the incident with the cops. 





    Damn shame this didn't get any attention then. This kid would have been a much better face of all of this than George Floyd. Here's a petition to try and get them to reopen the case....

    http://chng.it/b9PGMzfnNM
    Holy fuck.  They injected him with ketamine on top of the restraining. For wearing a jacket and ski mask....and the officers still serve.  How did this not make the news when it happened?  As for George Floyd being the face of the movement I’m still fine with that.  Everyone deserves to try to do better and not be forever in debt to prior criminal charges that they have paid for.  The goal is for convicts to be reformed and it sounds like he was doing just that.  He (unfortunately for him) was the one that was there when the cameras were rolling and the tipping point was reached.  
    I didn't even notice the ketamine mention on the petition site. Unbelievable. As for Floyd being the face of this, I guess Dave Chappelle said it best, "We didn't choose him. You [the cops, presumably] did."
    I don't remember hearing anything about this story....horribly sad
    I don't remember this story either.  Why did they inject him with that Drug? 

    Real sad. 


    apparently they used it as a tranquilizer

  • tbergstbergs Posts: 6,924
    cutz said:
    I know I haven't seen this one on the News either. Unless I missed it?

    https://www.columbiatribune.com/news/20200616/patrol-no-gun-found-in-car-of-missouri-woman-shot-by-deputy
    Haven't seen it much, but it did pop up in my feed. Don't remember who carried the story.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • PJNBPJNB New BrunswickPosts: 7,272
    edited June 24
    This was picked up on an audit. I wonder how many of these go on undetected. Absolutely terrifying. 

    https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2020/06/24/fired-wilmington-cop-we-are-just-going-to-go-out-and-start-slaughtering-them-f-ni-i-cant-wait-god-i-cant-wait-free-read/?fbclid=IwAR0y5lFz9SiSp4kO_B_2QIz4-Gx463tHBtkJU4xM28KK8QNjkZy4oU2hCOQ

    He, along with two other officers have been fired from the department after dash-cam footage recorded two phone conversations — accidentally — and a supervisor conducting a routine audit of the videos found the disturbing content.

    Michael ‘Kevin’ Piner, James ‘Brian’ Gilmore, and Jessie E. Moore II were all terminated from the force. The announcement came from the new Chief of Police Donny Williams — not even 24-hours into his first day as chief
    The former officers actively tried to prevent a release of the information, and an attorney filed an apparently unsuccessful motion for a temporary restraining order, but ultimately the city decided it was the right thing to do.
    On June 4, just days after protests began in Wilmington regarding the murder of George Floyd in Minnesota, a Sergeant Heflin was conducting monthly video audits — a routine part of her job — when she came across what was labeled as ‘accidental activations’ from Piner’s car.

    Apparently, the car’s camera system was recording despite not being ‘activated’ for an incident (typically cameras are recording at all times but will not keep the recordings unless an officer triggers the system).

    After skipping through the video, which was largely video of his backseat, she found a conversation between Piner and Corporal Jessie Moore — a police officer with the department since 1997.

    She reviewed the conversation she ‘heard comments, extremely racist comments made by both Piner and Moore,” according to a summary provided by police.

    The video also recorded a conversation with Officer Gilmore who apparently had pulled up next to Piner’s car.

    Both conversations were explicit and racist in content.

    According to the investigation summary, at 6:51 a.m., on a date not listed, Piner and Gilmore are recorded having a conversation.

    “Their conversation eventually turned to the topic of the protests against racism occurring across the nation. Piner tells Gilmore that the only thing this agency is concerned with ‘kneeling down with the black folks.’ Gilmore then said that he watched a video on social media about white people bowing down on their knees and ‘worshipping blacks,'” according to the summary.

    The conversation then turned to other police officers in the Wilmington Police Department — black officers.

    The audio has Piner calling one of the officers ‘bad news’ and a ‘piece of shit.’

    “Let’s see how his boys take care of him when shit gets rough, see if they don’t put a bullet in his head,” Piner said about a fellow officer.

    That conversation ends as Piner goes to respond to an alarm call.

    A civil war is coming’
    The second of the two conversations that day happened after Piner received a phone call from Moore.

    According to the summary, “Moore began telling Piner about an arrest he had made at work the day before. During that conversation, Moore refers to the female as a ‘negro’ and a ‘ni—-‘ on multiple occasions.”

    He also referred to a magistrate judge, who is also black, as a ‘fucking negro magistrate.’

    “At one point, Moore states, ‘she needed a bullet in her head right then and move on. Let’s move the body out of the way and keep going.’ Piner responds, ‘That’s what I have been trying to tell you,'” according to the documents.

    After more derogatory comments about the arrestee and the magistrate, the conversation takes an even bleaker turn, as the two officers discuss an upcoming ‘civil war.’

    “Piner tells Moore later in the conversation that he feels a civil war is coming and he is ‘ready.’ Piner advised he is going to buy a new assault rifle in the next couple of weeks. A short time later Officer Piner began to discuss society being close to ‘martial law’ and soon ‘we are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them fucking ni—–. I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.’ Moore responded that he would not do that. Piner stated, ‘I am ready.'” according to the summary.

    “Officer Piner then explained to Cpl. Moore that he felt society needed a civil war to ‘wipe ’em off the fucking map. That’ll put ’em back about four or five generations.'”

    After the conversations were discovered police launched their own investigations into the incidents. None of the officers involved denied saying the things they said, according to WPD>

    “Each officer admitted it was their voice on the video. They did not deny saying any of the things heard on the video. Each officer pointed to the stress of today’s climate in law enforcement as a reason for their ‘venting,'” according to the investigation.
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 23,271
    PJNB said:
    This was picked up on an audit. I wonder how many of these go on undetected. Absolutely terrifying. 

    https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2020/06/24/fired-wilmington-cop-we-are-just-going-to-go-out-and-start-slaughtering-them-f-ni-i-cant-wait-god-i-cant-wait-free-read/?fbclid=IwAR0y5lFz9SiSp4kO_B_2QIz4-Gx463tHBtkJU4xM28KK8QNjkZy4oU2hCOQ

    He, along with two other officers have been fired from the department after dash-cam footage recorded two phone conversations — accidentally — and a supervisor conducting a routine audit of the videos found the disturbing content.

    Michael ‘Kevin’ Piner, James ‘Brian’ Gilmore, and Jessie E. Moore II were all terminated from the force. The announcement came from the new Chief of Police Donny Williams — not even 24-hours into his first day as chief
    The former officers actively tried to prevent a release of the information, and an attorney filed an apparently unsuccessful motion for a temporary restraining order, but ultimately the city decided it was the right thing to do.
    On June 4, just days after protests began in Wilmington regarding the murder of George Floyd in Minnesota, a Sergeant Heflin was conducting monthly video audits — a routine part of her job — when she came across what was labeled as ‘accidental activations’ from Piner’s car.

    Apparently, the car’s camera system was recording despite not being ‘activated’ for an incident (typically cameras are recording at all times but will not keep the recordings unless an officer triggers the system).

    After skipping through the video, which was largely video of his backseat, she found a conversation between Piner and Corporal Jessie Moore — a police officer with the department since 1997.

    She reviewed the conversation she ‘heard comments, extremely racist comments made by both Piner and Moore,” according to a summary provided by police.

    The video also recorded a conversation with Officer Gilmore who apparently had pulled up next to Piner’s car.

    Both conversations were explicit and racist in content.

    According to the investigation summary, at 6:51 a.m., on a date not listed, Piner and Gilmore are recorded having a conversation.

    “Their conversation eventually turned to the topic of the protests against racism occurring across the nation. Piner tells Gilmore that the only thing this agency is concerned with ‘kneeling down with the black folks.’ Gilmore then said that he watched a video on social media about white people bowing down on their knees and ‘worshipping blacks,'” according to the summary.

    The conversation then turned to other police officers in the Wilmington Police Department — black officers.

    The audio has Piner calling one of the officers ‘bad news’ and a ‘piece of shit.’

    “Let’s see how his boys take care of him when shit gets rough, see if they don’t put a bullet in his head,” Piner said about a fellow officer.

    That conversation ends as Piner goes to respond to an alarm call.

    A civil war is coming’
    The second of the two conversations that day happened after Piner received a phone call from Moore.

    According to the summary, “Moore began telling Piner about an arrest he had made at work the day before. During that conversation, Moore refers to the female as a ‘negro’ and a ‘ni—-‘ on multiple occasions.”

    He also referred to a magistrate judge, who is also black, as a ‘fucking negro magistrate.’

    “At one point, Moore states, ‘she needed a bullet in her head right then and move on. Let’s move the body out of the way and keep going.’ Piner responds, ‘That’s what I have been trying to tell you,'” according to the documents.

    After more derogatory comments about the arrestee and the magistrate, the conversation takes an even bleaker turn, as the two officers discuss an upcoming ‘civil war.’

    “Piner tells Moore later in the conversation that he feels a civil war is coming and he is ‘ready.’ Piner advised he is going to buy a new assault rifle in the next couple of weeks. A short time later Officer Piner began to discuss society being close to ‘martial law’ and soon ‘we are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them fucking ni—–. I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.’ Moore responded that he would not do that. Piner stated, ‘I am ready.'” according to the summary.

    “Officer Piner then explained to Cpl. Moore that he felt society needed a civil war to ‘wipe ’em off the fucking map. That’ll put ’em back about four or five generations.'”

    After the conversations were discovered police launched their own investigations into the incidents. None of the officers involved denied saying the things they said, according to WPD>

    “Each officer admitted it was their voice on the video. They did not deny saying any of the things heard on the video. Each officer pointed to the stress of today’s climate in law enforcement as a reason for their ‘venting,'” according to the investigation.
    Yep there’s a whole lot of these folks that are ready for a civil war down in them southern counties! 

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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 23,905
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
    Training courses would be at the bottom of the list. This is extremely shorthand but reforms I've seen suggested that could have a workable final form include:

    - Ending qualified immunity
    - Limiting police union activity to negotiating wages and benefits
    - Independent municipal/community oversight of discipline
    - Moving certain duties away from police (traffic enforcement, some crisis response, etc.)
    - Public visibility into discipline records
    - Fewer criminal laws (drug legalization/decriminalization, etc.)

    I might think of more but stuff like that 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 21,239
    some kind of empathy aptitude measurement, if possible, would be a good place to start. 

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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 23,905
    pjl44 said:
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
    Training courses would be at the bottom of the list. This is extremely shorthand but reforms I've seen suggested that could have a workable final form include:

    - Ending qualified immunity
    - Limiting police union activity to negotiating wages and benefits
    - Independent municipal/community oversight of discipline
    - Moving certain duties away from police (traffic enforcement, some crisis response, etc.)
    - Public visibility into discipline records
    - Fewer criminal laws (drug legalization/decriminalization, etc.)

    I might think of more but stuff like that 
    Why would any union not negotiate wages?  That doesn't make sense.

    Removing traffic enforcement would only create another division to do that.  If they do would that be at a cheaper cost?

    All the others I am fine with.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,063
    pjl44 said:
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
    Training courses would be at the bottom of the list. This is extremely shorthand but reforms I've seen suggested that could have a workable final form include:

    - Ending qualified immunity
    - Limiting police union activity to negotiating wages and benefits
    - Independent municipal/community oversight of discipline
    - Moving certain duties away from police (traffic enforcement, some crisis response, etc.)
    - Public visibility into discipline records
    - Fewer criminal laws (drug legalization/decriminalization, etc.)

    I might think of more but stuff like that 
    Why would any union not negotiate wages?  That doesn't make sense.

    Removing traffic enforcement would only create another division to do that.  If they do would that be at a cheaper cost?

    All the others I am fine with.

    Limit union activity TO negotiating wages and benefits - i.e., that's what they would do.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 21,239
    he said limiting the union to negotiating wages and benefits, so they WOULD be negotiating wages. my guess is you just read that wrong?
    1993 - Gimli, MB (Sun/Mudfest)
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  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,158
    pjl44 said:
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
    Training courses would be at the bottom of the list. This is extremely shorthand but reforms I've seen suggested that could have a workable final form include:

    - Ending qualified immunity
    - Limiting police union activity to negotiating wages and benefits
    - Independent municipal/community oversight of discipline
    - Moving certain duties away from police (traffic enforcement, some crisis response, etc.)
    - Public visibility into discipline records
    - Fewer criminal laws (drug legalization/decriminalization, etc.)

    I might think of more but stuff like that 
    Why would any union not negotiate wages?  That doesn't make sense.

    Removing traffic enforcement would only create another division to do that.  If they do would that be at a cheaper cost?

    All the others I am fine with.
    Like oftenreading said, *limited to only* negotiating wages (i.e., not involved in complaints, etc.)

    I can't imagine cost getting in the way of splintering off traffic enforcement. Maybe a little more overhead with management? Maybe wages are less than a police officer? You could make an argument either way, but hard for me to see it being prohibitively expensive. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 23,905
    pjl44 said:
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
    Training courses would be at the bottom of the list. This is extremely shorthand but reforms I've seen suggested that could have a workable final form include:

    - Ending qualified immunity
    - Limiting police union activity to negotiating wages and benefits
    - Independent municipal/community oversight of discipline
    - Moving certain duties away from police (traffic enforcement, some crisis response, etc.)
    - Public visibility into discipline records
    - Fewer criminal laws (drug legalization/decriminalization, etc.)

    I might think of more but stuff like that 
    Why would any union not negotiate wages?  That doesn't make sense.

    Removing traffic enforcement would only create another division to do that.  If they do would that be at a cheaper cost?

    All the others I am fine with.

    Limit union activity TO negotiating wages and benefits - i.e., that's what they would do.
    OK, I read that wrong.  Thanks.

    If the union can't represent them in any other way then they are just agents.  I wouldn't agree to that one still.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 23,905
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    Good cop/bad cop.

    As I am sure there isn't a formula we can conjure up to make a bad cop good.  The term "reform" gets thrown around a lot.

    How are we going to reform them?  What magic training courses are offered that are going to fix this?

    I would love to see police officers walking a beat more and interact with the very people they were sworn to protect.
    Training courses would be at the bottom of the list. This is extremely shorthand but reforms I've seen suggested that could have a workable final form include:

    - Ending qualified immunity
    - Limiting police union activity to negotiating wages and benefits
    - Independent municipal/community oversight of discipline
    - Moving certain duties away from police (traffic enforcement, some crisis response, etc.)
    - Public visibility into discipline records
    - Fewer criminal laws (drug legalization/decriminalization, etc.)

    I might think of more but stuff like that 
    Why would any union not negotiate wages?  That doesn't make sense.

    Removing traffic enforcement would only create another division to do that.  If they do would that be at a cheaper cost?

    All the others I am fine with.
    Like oftenreading said, *limited to only* negotiating wages (i.e., not involved in complaints, etc.)

    I can't imagine cost getting in the way of splintering off traffic enforcement. Maybe a little more overhead with management? Maybe wages are less than a police officer? You could make an argument either way, but hard for me to see it being prohibitively expensive. 
    In Nassau and queens we have "crossing guards".  They make shit for pay but have full benefits.  It's not a bad gig
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