Peaceful protest has not led to one whit of change. Those saying to "just protest peacefully" have no idea of the magnitude of the problem. I can understand the rage and frustration.
This is a tough one.
First of all, I think you're pretty much right on here. But having seen all kinds of protest over various issues, I think what was once a successful means for change (for example: the war in Vietnam ended earlier that it would have due to protests of all kinds), protests are now not as likely to create change. I don't say that easily. I understand the protests. I'm against violent protest, but I understand it. How could I, a white male, speak out against the protests in Minneapolis and elsewhere? What would I be doing if I were a young black man? If I'm angry at what happened, how much more if I were black or brown?
I don't know for sure anymore what creates change. One thing for sure- it's not happening for a lot of people in ways that are making things better for them. Something has to give.
When you say you can’t speak out against protestors, do you include looters and arsons and those bringing guns and shooting in a crowd in that? I don’t consider them protesters.
No, I don't agree with the looting and the arson. I understand it, I understand the anger, but burning and stealing is not something I condone. But look, the reality is, the great majority of protesters are not burning and looting. And we should remember that the media loves it. Man, that shit sells. But ALL the other protesters? I say, Right ON!
A rebuttal to myself:
Yeah, OK, but what has peaceful protest ever gained? Maybe violence in the streets is the only way to get enough attention to the problem to make enough people aware of how bad the situation is and how seriously change needs to happen. There are no easy answers.
Here’s the problem. Destroying property is wrong. But even worse I will be shocked if no one is killed in these riots, if they haven’t already. Dis you see that cop in Chicago being dragged through the street? I thought they were going to mob kill him like you see in 3rd world countries. And they very well may have if a few other protesters didn’t step in. No cops deserve to be murdered because of the actions of a few they never even met. Same goes for all groups and races. Someone killing a cop because he’s a cop is just as disgusting as a cop killing a black man.
I wish cops would step in and take control when their co-workers are out of control. We cannot expect humans to stay in control 100%, we can expect a system that minimizes it and then steps in to stop it when it occurs.
i wish the protests could have remained peaceful. I understand that when you aren’t being heard you lash out. But I hate the stupid excuse it gives to shift blame.
Police need to police each other. Like any job. Someone doing something wrong, call it out and help them do it right.
And in reality the protesters also need to be holding each other accountable for their behavior. Same thing.
I guess this is what you get when you:
1) continue to have police issues with very little change/improvement 2) Have a president that stokes division, hatred and violence
Several other things I can think of, but not sure this forum or any online forum is the place to bring it up and have a conversation about. Needs to be in person, not a place that treats posts like headlines.
Police certainly should police each other, but they do not and I don't expect that will change. Their culture of protecting each other is too strong.
And as for protesters holding each other accountable - why? and how? These individuals are not a unified group with a specific purpose, like the police - it's a disparate amalgamation of people with all sorts of aims, and many of the ones who are causing problems aren't really even there to protest, they're there to take advantage of the situation to cast the protesters in a bad light. MAGAheads sowing chaos so that they can use it as an excuse to "crack down" again.
I agree with your two list causes, though.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
There are shopping sprees going on everywhere. It's like that dream when I was a kid of having 5 minutes in a Toys R Us to grab whatever I could. Except I didn't have to worry about Geoffery shooting me.
I predict to see an exodus of people from downtown areas. Between this and being virus corridors, there are serious considerations to take if you are raising a family.
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this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,802
3 hours. Nothing from the Pile of Crap in Chief.
Those of you who support him? Bravo. Feel proud of yourselves.
I predict to see an exodus of people from downtown areas. Between this and being virus corridors, there are serious considerations to take if you are raising a family.
Many have been predicting, writing about this for years. It's happened before. Much of downtown San Francisco was a shit hole in the early 70's when I lived there. NYC, same thing. Look at CBGBs. Then it all gentrified...l for a while. It's changing again. What will remain will be, yet again, the poor who have no way out. The poor shall inherit the inner cities. It's already happening.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Peaceful protest has not led to one whit of change. Those saying to "just protest peacefully" have no idea of the magnitude of the problem. I can understand the rage and frustration.
This is a tough one.
First of all, I think you're pretty much right on here. But having seen all kinds of protest over various issues, I think what was once a successful means for change (for example: the war in Vietnam ended earlier that it would have due to protests of all kinds), protests are now not as likely to create change. I don't say that easily. I understand the protests. I'm against violent protest, but I understand it. How could I, a white male, speak out against the protests in Minneapolis and elsewhere? What would I be doing if I were a young black man? If I'm angry at what happened, how much more if I were black or brown?
I don't know for sure anymore what creates change. One thing for sure- it's not happening for a lot of people in ways that are making things better for them. Something has to give.
When you say you can’t speak out against protestors, do you include looters and arsons and those bringing guns and shooting in a crowd in that? I don’t consider them protesters.
No, I don't agree with the looting and the arson. I understand it, I understand the anger, but burning and stealing is not something I condone. But look, the reality is, the great majority of protesters are not burning and looting. And we should remember that the media loves it. Man, that shit sells. But ALL the other protesters? I say, Right ON!
A rebuttal to myself:
Yeah, OK, but what has peaceful protest ever gained? Maybe violence in the streets is the only way to get enough attention to the problem to make enough people aware of how bad the situation is and how seriously change needs to happen. There are no easy answers.
Here’s the problem. Destroying property is wrong. But even worse I will be shocked if no one is killed in these riots, if they haven’t already. Dis you see that cop in Chicago being dragged through the street? I thought they were going to mob kill him like you see in 3rd world countries. And they very well may have if a few other protesters didn’t step in. No cops deserve to be murdered because of the actions of a few they never even met. Same goes for all groups and races. Someone killing a cop because he’s a cop is just as disgusting as a cop killing a black man.
Maybe factor in that not all the violence is from who you might think (thank you OnWis97 for posting this in the White Privilege thread):
Far-right extremists are showing up, with guns, to the
protests against police brutality that have exploded across the country.
Others are egging on the violence from behind their computers,
urging followers to carry out acts of violence against black protesters
with the goal of sparking a “race war.”
The police too often abandon human decency for the letter of the law enforcement. The inability to have critical thought and not just look at everything as wrong or right. There is gray, but they only see black and white.
Those of you who support him? Bravo. Feel proud of yourselves.
This is what Zero leadership looks like.
What a complete waste of a human life.
It'd be best if he didn't speak, or really just Tweet. He points fingers and sows the division by blaming democratic leaders whenever he can, but he's never at fault.
My god. What a clips I have seen here and there. Stay strong and stay safe.
| Pinkpop 1992 *BEST EVER* | Rotterdam 1993 | Amsterdam 1996 | Pinkpop 2000 | Arnhem 2006 | Nijmegen 2007 | Rotterdam 2009 | Nijmegen 2010 | Amsterdam I + II 2012 ** | Amsterdam Eddie Vedder Solo 2012 First European Concert *EPIC*| Amsterdam I + II 2014 | Amsterdam Eddie Vedder Solo 2016 night I | Amsterdam I + II 2018 | Amsterdam I -> Canceled + II 2022 *EPIC
I wish cops would step in and take control when their co-workers are out of control. We cannot expect humans to stay in control 100%, we can expect a system that minimizes it and then steps in to stop it when it occurs.
i wish the protests could have remained peaceful. I understand that when you aren’t being heard you lash out. But I hate the stupid excuse it gives to shift blame.
Police need to police each other. Like any job. Someone doing something wrong, call it out and help them do it right.
And in reality the protesters also need to be holding each other accountable for their behavior. Same thing.
I guess this is what you get when you:
1) continue to have police issues with very little change/improvement 2) Have a president that stokes division, hatred and violence
Several other things I can think of, but not sure this forum or any online forum is the place to bring it up and have a conversation about. Needs to be in person, not a place that treats posts like headlines.
Police certainly should police each other, but they do not and I don't expect that will change. Their culture of protecting each other is too strong.
And as for protesters holding each other accountable - why? and how? These individuals are not a unified group with a specific purpose, like the police - it's a disparate amalgamation of people with all sorts of aims, and many of the ones who are causing problems aren't really even there to protest, they're there to take advantage of the situation to cast the protesters in a bad light. MAGAheads sowing chaos so that they can use it as an excuse to "crack down" again.
I agree with your two list causes, though.
Since they are calling for action and creating the environment. Look I don’t expect them to do the police work. I just expect them to do what they can. I think it’s clear that some of these leaders in the streets are just as frustrated about the looting, etc as many others are. Saw on CNN then interviewing a young black man, 19. Kid really couldn’t communicate why he was there and what they wanted to do. One of the leaders of the group barged in, frustrated, and tried to explain. I expect anyone to confront this kind of behavior.
I find these statements eerily similar, and I get it’s not apples to apples:
1) Police when a police murder happens “Most cops are good cops, there are some bad elements”
2) Protesters “Most are protesting and want justice. There is a bad element taking advantage...”
I guess it shows just how similar we all are. I’m mad and frustrated that a lack of real change has occurred in many police forces that has lead to this. I’m mad and frustrated that this protest have become a lot about fires, damage and looting. I certainly don’t have the answers. I guess if I was organizing the protest, I would have people sit outside the businesses along the street. No more marching, just site in front of the business that they depend on during everyday normal life. It’s an opportunity for a valuable visual, to separate them from the criminal element.
As for the police, they too have to separate themselves from the criminal element in their workforce obviously.
Peaceful protest has not led to one whit of change. Those saying to "just protest peacefully" have no idea of the magnitude of the problem. I can understand the rage and frustration.
This is a tough one.
First of all, I think you're pretty much right on here. But having seen all kinds of protest over various issues, I think what was once a successful means for change (for example: the war in Vietnam ended earlier that it would have due to protests of all kinds), protests are now not as likely to create change. I don't say that easily. I understand the protests. I'm against violent protest, but I understand it. How could I, a white male, speak out against the protests in Minneapolis and elsewhere? What would I be doing if I were a young black man? If I'm angry at what happened, how much more if I were black or brown?
I don't know for sure anymore what creates change. One thing for sure- it's not happening for a lot of people in ways that are making things better for them. Something has to give.
When you say you can’t speak out against protestors, do you include looters and arsons and those bringing guns and shooting in a crowd in that? I don’t consider them protesters.
No, I don't agree with the looting and the arson. I understand it, I understand the anger, but burning and stealing is not something I condone. But look, the reality is, the great majority of protesters are not burning and looting. And we should remember that the media loves it. Man, that shit sells. But ALL the other protesters? I say, Right ON!
A rebuttal to myself:
Yeah, OK, but what has peaceful protest ever gained? Maybe violence in the streets is the only way to get enough attention to the problem to make enough people aware of how bad the situation is and how seriously change needs to happen. There are no easy answers.
I think the way to square it is distinguishing between the violence directed at precinct buildings and police vehicles vs. that directed at things like local businesses or a Native American cultural center. It's awful on a number of levels that this is what it's come to, but I do see a distinction there.
Is it time to worry that this country is headed into a total authoritarian regime? I’m really thinking of putting together a get out of the country contingency plan with my family!
Is it time to worry that this country is headed into a total authoritarian regime? I’m really thinking of putting together a get out of the country contingency plan with my family!
The opposite, in my opinion. You're seeing strong pushback to authoritarianism.
Is it time to worry that this country is headed into a total authoritarian regime? I’m really thinking of putting together a get out of the country contingency plan with my family!
The opposite, in my opinion. You're seeing strong pushback to authoritarianism.
Yes from regular Joe’s in the streets but zero from our elected officials not one word of condemnation from either chamber of government! I don’t expect anything from the WH since they are the culprits, police given carte Blanche on how to control crowds ,arrested journalist! I’m just not seeing any positive direction from what’s happening..Glad my family’s passports are all up to date and I do have an outlet place to head too..
I wish cops would step in and take control when their co-workers are out of control. We cannot expect humans to stay in control 100%, we can expect a system that minimizes it and then steps in to stop it when it occurs.
i wish the protests could have remained peaceful. I understand that when you aren’t being heard you lash out. But I hate the stupid excuse it gives to shift blame.
Police need to police each other. Like any job. Someone doing something wrong, call it out and help them do it right.
And in reality the protesters also need to be holding each other accountable for their behavior. Same thing.
I guess this is what you get when you:
1) continue to have police issues with very little change/improvement 2) Have a president that stokes division, hatred and violence
Several other things I can think of, but not sure this forum or any online forum is the place to bring it up and have a conversation about. Needs to be in person, not a place that treats posts like headlines.
Police certainly should police each other, but they do not and I don't expect that will change. Their culture of protecting each other is too strong.
And as for protesters holding each other accountable - why? and how? These individuals are not a unified group with a specific purpose, like the police - it's a disparate amalgamation of people with all sorts of aims, and many of the ones who are causing problems aren't really even there to protest, they're there to take advantage of the situation to cast the protesters in a bad light. MAGAheads sowing chaos so that they can use it as an excuse to "crack down" again.
I agree with your two list causes, though.
Since they are calling for action and creating the environment. Look I don’t expect them to do the police work. I just expect them to do what they can. I think it’s clear that some of these leaders in the streets are just as frustrated about the looting, etc as many others are. Saw on CNN then interviewing a young black man, 19. Kid really couldn’t communicate why he was there and what they wanted to do. One of the leaders of the group barged in, frustrated, and tried to explain. I expect anyone to confront this kind of behavior.
I find these statements eerily similar, and I get it’s not apples to apples:
1) Police when a police murder happens “Most cops are good cops, there are some bad elements”
2) Protesters “Most are protesting and want justice. There is a bad element taking advantage...”
I guess it shows just how similar we all are. I’m mad and frustrated that a lack of real change has occurred in many police forces that has lead to this. I’m mad and frustrated that this protest have become a lot about fires, damage and looting. I certainly don’t have the answers. I guess if I was organizing the protest, I would have people sit outside the businesses along the street. No more marching, just site in front of the business that they depend on during everyday normal life. It’s an opportunity for a valuable visual, to separate them from the criminal element.
As for the police, they too have to separate themselves from the criminal element in their workforce obviously.
Again, the problem with your argument is that “protesters” are not a discrete group of people with a defined purpose, like the police are. The police are present to do a specific job competently and the public has a right to expect that they are all competent and responsible. The “few bad apples” argument is a cop out, whereas the protesters are simply the general public.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
No one is slamming these “protestors “ for social distancing? Why?
Because that's stupid.
How? It’s not stupid in any other large gatherings that happen.
Do you have your own opinion on the matter? Pretty sure this was mentioned a few pages ago and it's been mentioned in the media. Also, do you mean those rioting or the actual protestors because many of them have been wearing masks. Rioters and looters, yeah, probably not going to happen besides the masks they're wearing to hide their identity.
And why is it that you usually come on here to try and prove some contrarian point or a catch people in a gotcha moment? Oh, the left isn't criticizing this group enough. FFS, people protesting because they have to wear a mask and quarantine for a month vs. people protesting hundreds of years of oppression.
No one is slamming these “protestors “ for social distancing? Why?
Because that's stupid.
How? It’s not stupid in any other large gatherings that happen.
Do you have your own opinion on the matter? Pretty sure this was mentioned a few pages ago and it's been mentioned in the media. Also, do you mean those rioting or the actual protestors because many of them have been wearing masks. Rioters and looters, yeah, probably not going to happen besides the masks they're wearing to hide their identity.
And why is it that you usually come on here to try and prove some contrarian point or a catch people in a gotcha moment? Oh, the left isn't criticizing this group enough. FFS, people protesting because they have to wear a mask and quarantine for a month vs. people protesting hundreds of years of oppression.
You sound pretty defensive. I was just asking. I don’t give a fuck about a gotcha moment. What’s wrong with a contrarian opinion? You need to understand that not everyone is so passionately on one side or the other.
I’d be lying if I said a huge covid spike from these protests isn’t in the back of my mind. How is it not in yours?
Comments
The above are some wild videos that I have been following tonight. No one dies in any of them but there is swearing and violence.
Dis you see that cop in Chicago being dragged through the street? I thought they were going to mob kill him like you see in 3rd world countries. And they very well may have if a few other protesters didn’t step in.
No cops deserve to be murdered because of the actions of a few they never even met. Same goes for all groups and races. Someone killing a cop because he’s a cop is just as disgusting as a cop killing a black man.
Police certainly should police each other, but they do not and I don't expect that will change. Their culture of protecting each other is too strong.
And as for protesters holding each other accountable - why? and how? These individuals are not a unified group with a specific purpose, like the police - it's a disparate amalgamation of people with all sorts of aims, and many of the ones who are causing problems aren't really even there to protest, they're there to take advantage of the situation to cast the protesters in a bad light. MAGAheads sowing chaos so that they can use it as an excuse to "crack down" again.
I agree with your two list causes, though.
Nothing from the Pile of Crap in Chief.
Those of you who support him?
Bravo. Feel proud of yourselves.
This is what Zero leadership looks like.
What a complete waste of a human life.
Many have been predicting, writing about this for years. It's happened before. Much of downtown San Francisco was a shit hole in the early 70's when I lived there. NYC, same thing. Look at CBGBs. Then it all gentrified...l for a while. It's changing again. What will remain will be, yet again, the poor who have no way out. The poor shall inherit the inner cities. It's already happening.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/31/law-enforcement-raid-cup-foods-vigil-for-george-floyd-taking-mourners-into-custody/
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/wcco-photojournalist-tom-aviles-arrested-in-south-minneapolis/
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/no-games-trump-says-natl-guard-has-been-released-in-minneapolis-should-have-been-used-2-days-ago/
1) Police when a police murder happens “Most cops are good cops, there are some bad elements”
2) Protesters “Most are protesting and want justice. There is a bad element taking advantage...”
I guess it shows just how similar we all are. I’m mad and frustrated that a lack of real change has occurred in many police forces that has lead to this. I’m mad and frustrated that this protest have become a lot about fires, damage and looting. I certainly don’t have the answers. I guess if I was organizing the protest, I would have people sit outside the businesses along the street. No more marching, just site in front of the business that they depend on during everyday normal life. It’s an opportunity for a valuable visual, to separate them from the criminal element.
As for the police, they too have to separate themselves from the criminal element in their workforce obviously.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-30/dont-understand-the-protests-what-youre-seeing-is-people-pushed-to-the-edge
This is not the answer.
And why is it that you usually come on here to try and prove some contrarian point or a catch people in a gotcha moment? Oh, the left isn't criticizing this group enough. FFS, people protesting because they have to wear a mask and quarantine for a month vs. people protesting hundreds of years of oppression.