Simple question: Do you support Israel's right to exist?

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  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."

    That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,856
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."

    That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.

    That is terrible.
    Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,433
    PJ_Soul said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."

    That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.

    That is terrible.
    Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
    With all due respect, this isn't quite accurate. Israel was created because there was a consensus that a Jewish state would never be legitimized after the expiration of the British Mandate, which would nullify the Balfour Declaration which stated:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.

    This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,856
    edited August 2014
    benjs said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."

    That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.

    That is terrible.
    Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
    With all due respect, this isn't quite accurate. Israel was created because there was a consensus that a Jewish state would never be legitimized after the expiration of the British Mandate, which would nullify the Balfour Declaration which stated:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.

    This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
    Whoa, hold on. I never said that the holocaust justified the creation of Israel or its existence now. I don't think that.

    I already know all the history you just posted. But the reason any of that happened is because no one was willing to offer anything else up for the refugees of the holocaust, leading to the chain of events that took place in the creation of Israel, and that was mostly if not completely because of anti-semitism.

    Yes, of course the hatred aimed at the Jews was known by the Zionists. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I said though.... maybe you're just reading too deeply into my simple and generalized comment?
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,433
    By the way PJ_Soul, What I would agree with is the notion that, whether the early Zionists used biblical claim as a reason to start the movement and justified it by showing the hatred towards Jews, or whether they used hatred towards Jews as a reason to start the movement and biblical claim as a justification for it - racism was certainly a component in either the creation or propagation of the notion of Zionism.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,433
    PJ_Soul said:

    benjs said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."

    That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.

    That is terrible.
    Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
    With all due respect, this isn't quite accurate. Israel was created because there was a consensus that a Jewish state would never be legitimized after the expiration of the British Mandate, which would nullify the Balfour Declaration which stated:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.

    This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
    Whoa, hold on. I never said that the holocaust justified the creation of Israel or its existence now. I don't think that.

    I already know all the history you just posted. But the reason any of that happened is because no one was willing to offer anything else up for the refugees of the holocaust, leading to the chain of events that took place in the creation of Israel, and that was mostly if not completely because of anti-semitism.

    Yes, of course the hatred aimed at the Jews was known by the Zionists. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I said though.... maybe you're just reading too deeply into my simple and generalized comment?
    PJ_Soul - first off, my apologies regarding the holocaust justifying the creation of Israel, I must've misunderstood what you wrote.

    Regarding the second paragraph there - could you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure which chain of events you're referring to. My simplistic causality chain goes: British write the Balfour Declaration, British administrate Mandatory Palestine, the British authority was set to cease to exist, hence, the Zionist movement's hand was forced and they took a 'now or never' stance and declared the establishment of the state. The refugees of the Holocaust would have been fuel for fire, but I don't think they were the guts of the movement.

    In addition, regarding the second paragraph, can we please stop using the term anti-Semitism? A Semite is a person who speaks a Semitic language, like Hebrew or Arabic. The bastardization of the term can be traced back to late 19th century German philosophers who used it to try and chunk the population as 'Jews' and 'everyone else' where Jews were less than everyone else, and I see no reason for that to continue. It's why I'm also incredulous when I hear African-Americans and Chinese people refer to themselves, even comically, with their respective derogatory labels.

    As for your last paragraph, again, could be my misunderstanding - I read what you had written as implying that Holocaust-era hatred was the turning point catalyst for Israel's inception.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,856
    edited August 2014
    What I'm saying is that if it weren't for the racism towards Jews before the events that lead to Israel being created, there would have been no need for Israel to be created. If the refugees had been welcomed by everyone everywhere, they would never have felt the need to migrate. There would have been no Jewish refugee crisis or any legs for the Zionist movement to stand on. The refugees would probably have settled around Europe again. So yes, I am implying that holocaust-era hatred was the catalyst for Israel's inception. You're dead on there. :)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,433
    edited August 2014
    PJ_Soul said:

    What I'm saying is that if it weren't for the racism towards Jews before the events that lead to Israel being created, there would have been no need for Israel to be created. If the refugees had been welcomed by everyone everywhere, they would never have felt the need to migrate. There would have been no Jewish refugee crisis or any legs for the Zionist movement to stand on. The refugees would probably have settled around Europe again. So yes, I am implying that holocaust-era hatred was the catalyst for Israel's inception. You're dead on there. :)

    That's really interesting actually... I agree with much of what you said, and given the fact that early Zionists were largely secular, things could have gone two ways: either the Zionist movement would have been seen as an extreme and unnecessary one and simply faded away, or on the other hand, maybe they would have gotten stronger and gained momentum which would lead us back to the same place we're at now. If the former had happened, maybe Israel would have been the Jewish homeland, rather than a Jewish state. And you're right, if that were the case, post-1948 hatred within the region would have likely been the exception rather than the rule - namely because a secular government would have been put in place.

    By the way, I just want to add - thank you for engaging me in such a logical and civil discussion. It's refreshing to have different viewpoints but still be able to share without offending.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,856
    benjs said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    What I'm saying is that if it weren't for the racism towards Jews before the events that lead to Israel being created, there would have been no need for Israel to be created. If the refugees had been welcomed by everyone everywhere, they would never have felt the need to migrate. There would have been no Jewish refugee crisis or any legs for the Zionist movement to stand on. The refugees would probably have settled around Europe again. So yes, I am implying that holocaust-era hatred was the catalyst for Israel's inception. You're dead on there. :)

    That's really interesting actually... I agree with much of what you said, and given the fact that early Zionists were largely secular, things could have gone two ways: either the Zionist movement would have been seen as an extreme and unnecessary one and simply faded away, or on the other hand, maybe they would have gotten stronger and gained momentum which would lead us back to the same place we're at now. If the former had happened, maybe Israel would have been the Jewish homeland, rather than a Jewish state. And you're right, if that were the case, post-1948 hatred within the region would have likely been the exception rather than the rule - namely because a secular government would have been put in place.

    By the way, I just want to add - thank you for engaging me in such a logical and civil discussion. It's refreshing to have different viewpoints but still be able to share without offending.
    Right back atcha! This topic can easily be discussed without it turning to shit. All it takes is cooler heads. ;) .... Did Byrnzie get sent to detention? :P

    For the record, I NEVER let a disagreement on these boards affect how I feel about the people I'm disagreeing with even if they piss me off, lol (not that anyone here has). At the end of the day I consider everyone a friend..... almost everyone, hahaha.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,433
    By the way... I would highly recommend watching this. I'm a fucking wreck right now from it though. http://thewararoundus.com/watch-it-now
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Well this turned into a love fest.Nice work guys.



  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    rr165892 said:

    Well this turned into a love fest.Nice work guys.



    Fuck u RR!!!! =)) B-)
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    imagephoto imagejpg1_zps9877b927.jpg"
    So much better.I needed that.I prefer go fuck yourself,But ill take a fuck you on Saturday night.And for you my pal I have alittle picture you can use when you are fucking yourself later.enjoy.lol
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    He's Soooo dreamy.Like a cup a Jewish mocha.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    rr165892 said:

    He's Soooo dreamy.Like a cup a Jewish mocha.

    I prefer to listening to him sing and rip on guitar, but he's all yours for the taking. Plus I prefer blonde women ;)
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    badbrains said:

    rr165892 said:

    He's Soooo dreamy.Like a cup a Jewish mocha.

    I prefer to listening to him sing and rip on guitar, but he's all yours for the taking. Plus I prefer blonde women ;)
    Enjoy your Sat night
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    rr165892 said:

    badbrains said:

    rr165892 said:

    He's Soooo dreamy.Like a cup a Jewish mocha.

    I prefer to listening to him sing and rip on guitar, but he's all yours for the taking. Plus I prefer blonde women ;)
    Enjoy your Sat night
    Just back from gaslight anthem at a record store show, my sat is complete. Gonna be impossible to top it with sun lol. Have a great weekend my friend.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,608
    "A cup of Jewish mocha" just provided a chuckle I didn't expect in this thread. Well done.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    JimmyV said:

    "A cup of Jewish mocha" just provided a chuckle I didn't expect in this thread. Well done.

    Me too. Once again - and not sure why! - I'm reminded of that scene from Curb ("I'm gonna fuck the Jew out of you!")

    Thanks from here as well.

    (and I think that Kravitz fella is dreamy as hell)
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    PJ_Soul said:

    Did Byrnzie get sent to detention? :P

    No, I didn't. Why would I have? Because a few people chose to get offended, or pretended to be offended, by everything I posted?

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