As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.
Ignores history of his rants? Ok, how about this for history: Do you remember ONE time, in all the times he has ever ranted, that he followed up his rant at a concert with an eloquent, carefully worded written post to be shared widely across the internet to explain what he meant? No? Well why do you think he did it this time? What called for it? Oh, maybe it was all the pressure he felt from the pro-Israel lobby regarding his calling out of their illegal appropriation of Palestinian land and the fact that they are murdering children. Oh, and of course he asked that our tax dollars stop funding this. This isn't a backtrack per se in the sense that he contradicted himself -- it is a backtrack in that he was finally speaking up about one of the biggest injustices of the modern age, Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign of the Palestinians, and instead generalized his comments so as not to seem hurtful to the people justifying these crimes.
To insist that he WASN'T backtracking actually ignores the entire campaign by pro-Israel lobbyists pressuring artists to not speak out against Israel. Look at all the stories of celebrities who do. Either they stick by it (rare and courageous) or they backtrack.
Let's recall that some pro-Israel people such as myself defended Eddie's speech and didn't feel that his second speech was necessary.
Again, you seem to think "understandable" means we can sympathize with racism. That's not at all what anyone here is suggesting. We are simply saying that we can comprehend it, the LITERAL definition of understand. How can we ever make any progress if we don't understand the roots of racism? You wanna understand the roots of modern anti-Semitism? Guess what, it's the fact that Israel insists on committing crimes in the name of the Jewish people, and insisting that it is in defense of them. That's why we have so many Jews who are speaking out against these crimes, because they see these repercussions. That's what people mean here. We aren't saying that this is justified. We are simply saying that it is logical that humanity will drive people to emotional hatred of someone (and their group, through generalization) who hurts them. It is by acknowledging this that we can try to move forward.
Let me ask you a question: Do you have children? When your child gets hurt, even a scrape on the arm from a fall, what emotions do you feel? When someone else pushes your kid on the ground, how do you react? How about you then multiply that, and take a look at the images coming out of Gaza, of parents holding their dead child in their arms, with their limbs or head blown off. Can you even comprehend the feelings they must be feeling? The thoughts that must be going through their minds? That was my whole point in my post: OF COURSE we categorically reject all racism. But the point is that it is the racism of those in power that ACTUALLY matters. You think Jews who reject Israel's crimes are hated by Arabs and Palestinians? Of course not. At the end of the day it is the occupation and crimes against humanity being committed that are the issue here, so let's get back to that.
I don't have children, but in the scenario you describe above I would feel anger. Perhaps even rage. Not racism. I understand anger and rage, you understand racism. On that we differ. I think you are on a slippery slope when you start looking at certain instances of racism as being understandable.
We are not talking about acceptance and you should let that go. It clouds the issue.
I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.
No. His speech was directed at those like you defending Israel's crimes and demanding that artists stop "singling" Israel out, despite their committing one of the gravest crimes of the 20th century which continues to this day. We aren't representing a "side", except the side that demands an end to the oppression of Palestinians by a settler colonial power that not only occupies them, but continually murders them in cold blood by the thousands. To want an end to this is seeking "perpetual conflict"? What a twisted world you live in.
Eddie is anti-war. He wants it all to end. So do I. You believe Hamas is a group of freedom fighters who's war crimes are justified. Hell even Byrnzie conceded that Hamas should stop. If you really wanted peace you would agree with that as well.
Ya FUCK is pretty spot On with the family scenario. I can't imagine holding a child with it's head blown off or missing an arm or leg or whatever. Remember, parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. Can you imagine as a father, what would u say to your child if you're in an area being bombarded by the idf, and you're child is screaming, crying, shitting his/her pants in front of you because they are so scared to die, as a father or mother, what would you say to calm them down, to get them through the night just to go all over it again. What do you to that child? I'm being honest. I can't imagine ever being put in that position. And the thought of it is fucken heartbreaking. I'm not a father but I can tell you without a doubt, I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to sit there hopelessly waiting for my family to murdered in front of me, with me........
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
Again, you seem to think "understandable" means we can sympathize with racism. That's not at all what anyone here is suggesting. We are simply saying that we can comprehend it, the LITERAL definition of understand. How can we ever make any progress if we don't understand the roots of racism? You wanna understand the roots of modern anti-Semitism? Guess what, it's the fact that Israel insists on committing crimes in the name of the Jewish people, and insisting that it is in defense of them. That's why we have so many Jews who are speaking out against these crimes, because they see these repercussions. That's what people mean here. We aren't saying that this is justified. We are simply saying that it is logical that humanity will drive people to emotional hatred of someone (and their group, through generalization) who hurts them. It is by acknowledging this that we can try to move forward.
Let me ask you a question: Do you have children? When your child gets hurt, even a scrape on the arm from a fall, what emotions do you feel? When someone else pushes your kid on the ground, how do you react? How about you then multiply that, and take a look at the images coming out of Gaza, of parents holding their dead child in their arms, with their limbs or head blown off. Can you even comprehend the feelings they must be feeling? The thoughts that must be going through their minds? That was my whole point in my post: OF COURSE we categorically reject all racism. But the point is that it is the racism of those in power that ACTUALLY matters. You think Jews who reject Israel's crimes are hated by Arabs and Palestinians? Of course not. At the end of the day it is the occupation and crimes against humanity being committed that are the issue here, so let's get back to that.
I don't have children, but in the scenario you describe above I would feel anger. Perhaps even rage. Not racism. I understand anger and rage, you understand racism. On that we differ. I think you are on a slippery slope when you start looking at certain instances of racism as being understandable.
We are not talking about acceptance and you should let that go. It clouds the issue.
Jimmy, I think this is a silly topic to waste time and energy battling over. An anger and rage directed at a certain sect of people, based on the actions of a few who are largely seen as representatives of the collective sect, is no different than racism, which merely just suggests some form of prejudice about said people. 'Understanding' and 'condoning' are NOT synonymous in any way, shape or form. For something to be 'understandable', it suggests that if you follow a logical train of causality, it is viable that initial premises may lead to final conclusions. This seems to be the case here. And again, I don't think Byrnzie or ANYONE here is condoning racism.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,068
Good morning. I hope someone here came up with some ideas for how to create peace and working together here. Or am I still dreaming?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.
Ignores history of his rants? Ok, how about this for history: Do you remember ONE time, in all the times he has ever ranted, that he followed up his rant at a concert with an eloquent, carefully worded written post to be shared widely across the internet to explain what he meant? No? Well why do you think he did it this time? What called for it? Oh, maybe it was all the pressure he felt from the pro-Israel lobby regarding his calling out of their illegal appropriation of Palestinian land and the fact that they are murdering children. Oh, and of course he asked that our tax dollars stop funding this. This isn't a backtrack per se in the sense that he contradicted himself -- it is a backtrack in that he was finally speaking up about one of the biggest injustices of the modern age, Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign of the Palestinians, and instead generalized his comments so as not to seem hurtful to the people justifying these crimes.
To insist that he WASN'T backtracking actually ignores the entire campaign by pro-Israel lobbyists pressuring artists to not speak out against Israel. Look at all the stories of celebrities who do. Either they stick by it (rare and courageous) or they backtrack.
I view his second statement as a response to anyone and everyone who chose to read into his words something that wasn't there. To every offended Israeli and ecstatic Palestinian alike. He has always been anti-war and still is. I cannot remember a time when his words lit such a firestorm of misunderstanding from so many people, and that is what I believe he chose to respond to. You can view it as a backtrack, but that is self-serving as it allows you to continue to believe in the projection you placed on his words.
If Eddie Vedder wanted to single out Israel, he would have. Just like the NRA or George Bush or Ticketmaster or the WM3 or a security guard standing three feet away. To say that he edited his words this time does indeed ignore the history of his rants.
Again, you seem to think "understandable" means we can sympathize with racism. That's not at all what anyone here is suggesting. We are simply saying that we can comprehend it, the LITERAL definition of understand. How can we ever make any progress if we don't understand the roots of racism? You wanna understand the roots of modern anti-Semitism? Guess what, it's the fact that Israel insists on committing crimes in the name of the Jewish people, and insisting that it is in defense of them. That's why we have so many Jews who are speaking out against these crimes, because they see these repercussions. That's what people mean here. We aren't saying that this is justified. We are simply saying that it is logical that humanity will drive people to emotional hatred of someone (and their group, through generalization) who hurts them. It is by acknowledging this that we can try to move forward.
Let me ask you a question: Do you have children? When your child gets hurt, even a scrape on the arm from a fall, what emotions do you feel? When someone else pushes your kid on the ground, how do you react? How about you then multiply that, and take a look at the images coming out of Gaza, of parents holding their dead child in their arms, with their limbs or head blown off. Can you even comprehend the feelings they must be feeling? The thoughts that must be going through their minds? That was my whole point in my post: OF COURSE we categorically reject all racism. But the point is that it is the racism of those in power that ACTUALLY matters. You think Jews who reject Israel's crimes are hated by Arabs and Palestinians? Of course not. At the end of the day it is the occupation and crimes against humanity being committed that are the issue here, so let's get back to that.
I don't have children, but in the scenario you describe above I would feel anger. Perhaps even rage. Not racism. I understand anger and rage, you understand racism. On that we differ. I think you are on a slippery slope when you start looking at certain instances of racism as being understandable.
We are not talking about acceptance and you should let that go. It clouds the issue.
Jimmy, I think this is a silly topic to waste time and energy battling over. An anger and rage directed at a certain sect of people, based on the actions of a few who are largely seen as representatives of the collective sect, is no different than racism, which merely just suggests some form of prejudice about said people. 'Understanding' and 'condoning' are NOT synonymous in any way, shape or form. For something to be 'understandable', it suggests that if you follow a logical train of causality, it is viable that initial premises may lead to final conclusions. This seems to be the case here. And again, I don't think Byrnzie or ANYONE here is condoning racism.
I don't disagree, it is silly. But to be fair Fuck chose to engage me and I responded.
I stand by my point: when you start picking and choosing racism that is "understandable" you are on a slippery slope. I don't see anyone arguing that Israeli racism is understandable because of suicide bombings and slaughtered Olympic athletes. Which is good because it would be ridiculous to do so. (If that has happened and I missed it...yuck.)
Ya FUCK is pretty spot On with the family scenario. I can't imagine holding a child with it's head blown off or missing an arm or leg or whatever. Remember, parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. Can you imagine as a father, what would u say to your child if you're in an area being bombarded by the idf, and you're child is screaming, crying, shitting his/her pants in front of you because they are so scared to die, as a father or mother, what would you say to calm them down, to get them through the night just to go all over it again. What do you to that child? I'm being honest. I can't imagine ever being put in that position. And the thought of it is fucken heartbreaking. I'm not a father but I can tell you without a doubt, I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to sit there hopelessly waiting for my family to murdered in front of me, with me........
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
But again this is just a path to perpetual violence. There are dead children on both sides. They aren't in proportional numbers but a dead child is a dead child. I have a friend who over 20 years ago lost his 17 year old sister to a palestinian bomb on a beach. She was just a tourist. "No prom, no first car, no nothing." Do we tag all Palestinians as her murderers? Absolutely not because we are bigger then that. Hamas on the other hand educates people to eradicate all jews. I have three children that the guy below would like to exterminate.
Ya FUCK is pretty spot On with the family scenario. I can't imagine holding a child with it's head blown off or missing an arm or leg or whatever. Remember, parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. Can you imagine as a father, what would u say to your child if you're in an area being bombarded by the idf, and you're child is screaming, crying, shitting his/her pants in front of you because they are so scared to die, as a father or mother, what would you say to calm them down, to get them through the night just to go all over it again. What do you to that child? I'm being honest. I can't imagine ever being put in that position. And the thought of it is fucken heartbreaking. I'm not a father but I can tell you without a doubt, I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to sit there hopelessly waiting for my family to murdered in front of me, with me........
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
But again this is just a path to perpetual violence. There are dead children on both sides. They aren't in proportional numbers but a dead child is a dead child. I have a friend who over 20 years ago lost his 17 year old sister to a palestinian bomb on a beach. She was just a tourist. "No prom, no first car, no nothing." Do we tag all Palestinians as her murderers? Absolutely not because we are bigger then that. Hamas on the other hand educates people to eradicate all jews. I have three children that the guy below would like to exterminate.
Ah, u must of skipped the post I posted about the idf soldiers who are gonna come out saying they we're told to shoot to kill. That's pretty much giving an order to eradicate the Palestinians. I feel for anyone who's had someone killed in this shit I really do. But with the numbers and casualties being so un proportionate and with the occupation lasting over 60+years, I have to feel for the Palestinians.
Yes,Byrnzie Hamas is A real big problem in this peace process.Just like Netanyahu is stepping on Israeli dicks in this also.IMO both sides have factions standing the the way of progress.
There are sane,clear headed folks in both Israel's minority party and in The P.A that could have had this nonsense halted by now.This process needs honest brokers on both sides.
Byrnzie,as much as I cherish our banter here,I think it would help if you don't glaze over what I said.(I fucking knew I shouldn't jump back into this,ehh) Regardless of what led up to the current state of affairs,it is imperative that it stop as soon as possible so people stop dying.It is going to take big balls and tough decisions for members of both sides to start any meaningful dialogue.I get you put All the blame on others,and they put all the blame on you(your side/position). So is it better to keep up with the blame,or does it make more sense to stop the violence NOW and get to work on a solution?Shit,I get your anger and passion,but we must look in the mirror and realize for change it must start with ourselves.Take out blame and get to the solution. No matter what reasoning you and Fuck give for giving Hamas a Pass,You will not get one step closer to your desired outcome until you realize those you oppose don't agree with your assessment of that particular player here.You will never see the peace you want without concessions.Same for the Israelies.Evry thing I just said could apply to them as well.
You think it is understandable for people to hate jews.
That's right. Except you left out the part where I said "...at this point in time." Very important that part of my sentence. But don't let that get in the way of your slippery personal attacks on me.
Just as I've said on countless occasions that not all Jews support Israel. I've also said on many occasions that most of the most vocal and well known critics of Israel happen to be Jewish: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Gideon Levy, Uri Avery...
Again, don't let the truth interfere with the massive hard-on you have for me.
Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge.
And your hypothetical future gives the Israeli's the right to follow the advice of Moshe Dayan, does it? It gives the Israeli's the right to continue being in massive violation of international law, and to continue committing war crimes against the Palestinians?
No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.
Had to add this...
I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.
Hes spot on with the Hamas issue.It has to be part of the equation
Lol, what? Did you read what he wrote about Hamas? He's not "spot on". His analysis of Hamas is not even calling for Hamas to be part of the equation, it's calling for nothing short of genocide. The dehumanization of Hamas in his posts is so in your face, he doesn't even try to hide it. He talks as if Hamas exists outside of the Palestinian people, while it is part and parcel of Palestinian society. He says himself "any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then [though I think he means "than"] Hamas". He talks as if Hamas is made up of demons that crawled out of the Earth's crust to spread terror, as opposed to a resistance group made in reaction to decades of Israeli crimes against, oppression and occupation of the Palestinian people. He even has the audacity to speak on behalf of Palestinians (whom he calls "Gazans") by saying they want to be "rid of Hamas".
It's truly astonishing the manner in which people here not only keep insisting that this is a "two-sided" conflict (which it's not), but they have to take it one step further by demonizing the victim (the Palestinian people, by acting as if Hamas is outside of them) and victimizing the oppressor (Israel), without acknowledging the power imbalance or the fact that one side is in fact occupying the other. Reading everyone's posts here, we'd think Hamas is besieging the Israelis!
Let's hear from the Son of Hamas himself Mosab Hassan Yousef
Ya FUCK is pretty spot On with the family scenario. I can't imagine holding a child with it's head blown off or missing an arm or leg or whatever. Remember, parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. Can you imagine as a father, what would u say to your child if you're in an area being bombarded by the idf, and you're child is screaming, crying, shitting his/her pants in front of you because they are so scared to die, as a father or mother, what would you say to calm them down, to get them through the night just to go all over it again. What do you to that child? I'm being honest. I can't imagine ever being put in that position. And the thought of it is fucken heartbreaking. I'm not a father but I can tell you without a doubt, I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to sit there hopelessly waiting for my family to murdered in front of me, with me........
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
But again this is just a path to perpetual violence. There are dead children on both sides. They aren't in proportional numbers but a dead child is a dead child. I have a friend who over 20 years ago lost his 17 year old sister to a palestinian bomb on a beach. She was just a tourist. "No prom, no first car, no nothing." Do we tag all Palestinians as her murderers? Absolutely not because we are bigger then that. Hamas on the other hand educates people to eradicate all jews. I have three children that the guy below would like to exterminate.
Ah, u must of skipped the post I posted about the idf soldiers who are gonna come out saying they we're told to shoot to kill. That's pretty much giving an order to eradicate the Palestinians. I feel for anyone who's had someone killed in this shit I really do. But with the numbers and casualties being so un proportionate and with the occupation lasting over 60+years, I have to feel for the Palestinians.
That's murder and they should be arrested if they are doing that,no excuses.
Ya FUCK is pretty spot On with the family scenario. I can't imagine holding a child with it's head blown off or missing an arm or leg or whatever. Remember, parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. Can you imagine as a father, what would u say to your child if you're in an area being bombarded by the idf, and you're child is screaming, crying, shitting his/her pants in front of you because they are so scared to die, as a father or mother, what would you say to calm them down, to get them through the night just to go all over it again. What do you to that child? I'm being honest. I can't imagine ever being put in that position. And the thought of it is fucken heartbreaking. I'm not a father but I can tell you without a doubt, I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to sit there hopelessly waiting for my family to murdered in front of me, with me........
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
But again this is just a path to perpetual violence. There are dead children on both sides. They aren't in proportional numbers but a dead child is a dead child. I have a friend who over 20 years ago lost his 17 year old sister to a palestinian bomb on a beach. She was just a tourist. "No prom, no first car, no nothing." Do we tag all Palestinians as her murderers? Absolutely not because we are bigger then that. Hamas on the other hand educates people to eradicate all jews. I have three children that the guy below would like to exterminate.
Ah, u must of skipped the post I posted about the idf soldiers who are gonna come out saying they we're told to shoot to kill. That's pretty much giving an order to eradicate the Palestinians. I feel for anyone who's had someone killed in this shit I really do. But with the numbers and casualties being so un proportionate and with the occupation lasting over 60+years, I have to feel for the Palestinians.
That's murder and they should be arrested if they are doing that,no excuses.
Ya they're saying once made public, those idf soldiers lives are gonna be in danger in Israel, the land they've sworn to protect. I feel by them coming out, that's exactly what they're trying to do. Protect both Israeli and Palestinian lives. To think that you're life would be in danger because you want to stop massacring people is crazy. Anybody remember the images of Libya when khadafi's troops executed those Libyan soldiers for not wanting to shoot unarmed civilians, women/children? Remember the uproar? I do, how can anyone forget. Those soldiers were executed because they didn't want to kill innocent civilians. How more patriotic is that? Knowing you're gonna die because you choose not to kill innocent women/children. Those are men, real men.
Ya FUCK is pretty spot On with the family scenario. I can't imagine holding a child with it's head blown off or missing an arm or leg or whatever. Remember, parents aren't supposed to bury their kids. Can you imagine as a father, what would u say to your child if you're in an area being bombarded by the idf, and you're child is screaming, crying, shitting his/her pants in front of you because they are so scared to die, as a father or mother, what would you say to calm them down, to get them through the night just to go all over it again. What do you to that child? I'm being honest. I can't imagine ever being put in that position. And the thought of it is fucken heartbreaking. I'm not a father but I can tell you without a doubt, I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to sit there hopelessly waiting for my family to murdered in front of me, with me........
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
But again this is just a path to perpetual violence. There are dead children on both sides. They aren't in proportional numbers but a dead child is a dead child. I have a friend who over 20 years ago lost his 17 year old sister to a palestinian bomb on a beach. She was just a tourist. "No prom, no first car, no nothing." Do we tag all Palestinians as her murderers? Absolutely not because we are bigger then that. Hamas on the other hand educates people to eradicate all jews. I have three children that the guy below would like to exterminate.
Ah, u must of skipped the post I posted about the idf soldiers who are gonna come out saying they we're told to shoot to kill. That's pretty much giving an order to eradicate the Palestinians. I feel for anyone who's had someone killed in this shit I really do. But with the numbers and casualties being so un proportionate and with the occupation lasting over 60+years, I have to feel for the Palestinians.
That's murder and they should be arrested if they are doing that,no excuses.
Ya they're saying once made public, those idf soldiers lives are gonna be in danger in Israel, the land they've sworn to protect. I feel by them coming out, that's exactly what they're trying to do. Protect both Israeli and Palestinian lives. To think that you're life would be in danger because you want to stop massacring people is crazy. Anybody remember the images of Libya when khadafi's troops executed those Libyan soldiers for not wanting to shoot unarmed civilians, women/children? Remember the uproar? I do, how can anyone forget. Those soldiers were executed because they didn't want to kill innocent civilians. How more patriotic is that? Knowing you're gonna die because you choose not to kill innocent women/children. Those are men, real men.
after 32 pages.... this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..." because I think the original meaning has been buried.
It is kind of telling that a thread intended to be about the quest for peace has erupted into a war.
Only on the PJ Forums…
I personally don't see this as war at all. As already stated, we might have differing opinions, but I would like to think that everyone here wants to promote peace and not killing.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
after 32 pages.... this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..." because I think the original meaning has been buried.
It is kind of telling that a thread intended to be about the quest for peace has erupted into a war.
Only on the PJ Forums…
I personally don't see this as war at all. As already stated, we might have differing opinions, but I would like to think that everyone here wants to promote peace and not killing.
The thread is supposed to be about peace, and I know I'm not going to stop trying to get it back on track.
after 32 pages.... this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..." because I think the original meaning has been buried.
It is kind of telling that a thread intended to be about the quest for peace has erupted into a war.
Only on the PJ Forums…
I personally don't see this as war at all. As already stated, we might have differing opinions, but I would like to think that everyone here wants to promote peace and not killing.
I of course didn't mean war literally. There have been many times throughout this dialogue when it has seemed more personal than it needed to be. The battle lines had been drawn and away it went.
I'm all for peace believe me, but if I remember correctly, Ed's rant in Milton keys wasn't very peaceful. It was pretty angry and loud.
That's a great point, badbrains. Anger doesn't mean someone isn't also in favor of peace. Given the current state of the world it is natural to feel anger.
I'm all for peace believe me, but if I remember correctly, Ed's rant in Milton keys wasn't very peaceful. It was pretty angry and loud.
That's a great point, badbrains. Anger doesn't mean someone isn't also in favor of peace. Given the current state of the world it is natural to feel anger.
Agree 100% jim, that's how I feel as do so many here and around the world. We ALL WANT peace! We want it SO FUCKEN BAD that it makes us ANGRY. Billions and billions of fucken galaxies out there, we're 1 fucken tiny ass planet, and can't even get along. As some said earlier in another thread, it's 2014. This shouldn't be happening. If there are aliens out there looking to invade planet earth, they won't even have to fire a single piece of weaponry. They can just wait for us to kill ourselves. How's that for taking over a nation/world WITHOUT firing a single bullet?
I'm all for peace believe me, but if I remember correctly, Ed's rant in Milton keys wasn't very peaceful. It was pretty angry and loud.
That's a great point, badbrains. Anger doesn't mean someone isn't also in favor of peace. Given the current state of the world it is natural to feel anger.
To a point. Being angry about a world issue and spreading awareness is one thing. And then there is anger that eats away at a person because one fails to recognize that they have no control over the situation, only to become cynical, bitter and no fun to be around.
I'm posting this from Mikepegg in a thread from AMT that's really fitting.
mikepegg44 said:
...Quit worrying about it and just take care of you and yours the best you can while being nice to everyone else. Don't wait for the federal gov't to do anything and just start pushing for change in local behavior and gov't. I am done worrying over things I cannot control, I am done worrying about politics the game...and I do blame that on leadership, but it isn't Obama's fault, the entire country is to blame for the "leadership" in Washington.
Something to point out… WE CAN'T CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. But we can handle how we treat each other, here and in our communities. It's about Peace.
I'm all for peace believe me, but if I remember correctly, Ed's rant in Milton keys wasn't very peaceful. It was pretty angry and loud.
That's a great point, badbrains. Anger doesn't mean someone isn't also in favor of peace. Given the current state of the world it is natural to feel anger.
I'm all for peace believe me, but if I remember correctly, Ed's rant in Milton keys wasn't very peaceful. It was pretty angry and loud.
That's a great point, badbrains. Anger doesn't mean someone isn't also in favor of peace. Given the current state of the world it is natural to feel anger.
You will never see the peace you want without concessions.
So you claim that the Palestinians haven't made concessions? They're now living on less than 20% of their homeland. I asked you if you if you haven't been paying attention and posted a lin to that article which deals with the history of the so-called 'peace-process', and you come back with this? This just proves to me that you didn't bother to read it.
Can you manage to read this much?:
'The problem is not, as Israelis often claim, that Palestinians do not know how to compromise. (Another former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, famously complained that ‘Palestinians take and take while Israel gives and gives.’) That is an indecent charge, since the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.
Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this..
Comments
To insist that he WASN'T backtracking actually ignores the entire campaign by pro-Israel lobbyists pressuring artists to not speak out against Israel. Look at all the stories of celebrities who do. Either they stick by it (rare and courageous) or they backtrack.
Let's recall that some pro-Israel people such as myself defended Eddie's speech and didn't feel that his second speech was necessary.
http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/235373/jerusalem-post-ben-red-completely-off-base-in-criticism-of-eddie-and-pearl-jam/p1
You are just another one of those guys who projected your cause onto his words.
We are not talking about acceptance and you should let that go. It clouds the issue.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Again...I defended Eddie. http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/235373/jerusalem-post-ben-red-completely-off-base-in-criticism-of-eddie-and-pearl-jam/p1
And again I am not defending Israel.
Eddie is anti-war. He wants it all to end. So do I. You believe Hamas is a group of freedom fighters who's war crimes are justified. Hell even Byrnzie conceded that Hamas should stop. If you really wanted peace you would agree with that as well.
Remember, the population in Gaza is an average of 17 years old. 17 years old! No prom, no first car, no nothing.....
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
To insist that he WASN'T backtracking actually ignores the entire campaign by pro-Israel lobbyists pressuring artists to not speak out against Israel. Look at all the stories of celebrities who do. Either they stick by it (rare and courageous) or they backtrack.
I view his second statement as a response to anyone and everyone who chose to read into his words something that wasn't there. To every offended Israeli and ecstatic Palestinian alike. He has always been anti-war and still is. I cannot remember a time when his words lit such a firestorm of misunderstanding from so many people, and that is what I believe he chose to respond to. You can view it as a backtrack, but that is self-serving as it allows you to continue to believe in the projection you placed on his words.
If Eddie Vedder wanted to single out Israel, he would have. Just like the NRA or George Bush or Ticketmaster or the WM3 or a security guard standing three feet away. To say that he edited his words this time does indeed ignore the history of his rants.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I stand by my point: when you start picking and choosing racism that is "understandable" you are on a slippery slope. I don't see anyone arguing that Israeli racism is understandable because of suicide bombings and slaughtered Olympic athletes. Which is good because it would be ridiculous to do so. (If that has happened and I missed it...yuck.)
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
And all the children sang together as one...
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
As a father how do you think I should behave?
Regardless of what led up to the current state of affairs,it is imperative that it stop as soon as possible so people stop dying.It is going to take big balls and tough decisions for members of both sides to start any meaningful dialogue.I get you put All the blame on others,and they put all the blame on you(your side/position). So is it better to keep up with the blame,or does it make more sense to stop the violence NOW and get to work on a solution?Shit,I get your anger and passion,but we must look in the mirror and realize for change it must start with ourselves.Take out blame and get to the solution.
No matter what reasoning you and Fuck give for giving Hamas a Pass,You will not get one step closer to your desired outcome until you realize those you oppose don't agree with your assessment of that particular player here.You will never see the peace you want without concessions.Same for the Israelies.Evry thing I just said could apply to them as well.
https://www.greenparty.ca/blogs/20430/2014-07-25/why-gaza-makes-me-sad
You don't get much to the left of the Canadian Green Party
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
How fitting that the thread on AMT has been closed. And now those same people who got that closed is bent on changing direction with this thread.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
nothing for fear of misinterpretation and retribution."
-- Eddie Vedder
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I'm posting this from Mikepegg in a thread from AMT that's really fitting. Something to point out… WE CAN'T CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. But we can handle how we treat each other, here and in our communities. It's about Peace.
Can you manage to read this much?:
'The problem is not, as Israelis often claim, that Palestinians do not know how to compromise. (Another former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, famously complained that ‘Palestinians take and take while Israel gives and gives.’) That is an indecent charge, since the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.
Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this..