Iraq

rr165892

unsung said:

rr165892 said:

Idris said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Fucked up, brain-washed, psychopathic idiots.

What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.

The U.S. or Isis?
-
We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)

You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.

The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.

That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.

and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.

It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.

Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine.
We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.

This is why I supported Ron Paul.

He firmly believes in a non-intervention policy, his critics from both sides were quick to label him as an isolationist. Our interventionist policies are the cause of much of the problems around the world, including having a large hand in what happens in the middle east.

We arm one country with planes to attack another country that we gave tanks to. We arm "rebels" in countries like Libya and Syria, but then when they use those weapons to attack our "friends" we call them terrorists. Our politicians steal from people in this country via the taxation system to send the funds to essentially arm these groups while it directly harms innocent people.

So yeah, I am very strongly saying that we should have never stuck our f-ing noses in it to begin with.

Can't unspill the milk.It now needs cleaning regardless who made the mess.Just doing nothing does not fit with our benevolent moral compass.(this situation I'm referencing only)

unsung

Ok, then at what point can we walk away for good? What will it take?

JimmyV

unsung said:

Ok, then at what point can we walk away for good? What will it take?

This is the question that I don't believe has an answer. It didn't in 2003 and it doesn't today. I couldn't agree more with you and with Ron Paul that we should not have gone in, but we did. I don't know when we can walk away or what it should look like when we do.

JimmyV

unsung said:

Ok, then at what point can we walk away for good? What will it take?

This is the question that I don't believe has an answer. It didn't in 2003 and it doesn't today. I couldn't agree more with you and with Ron Paul that we should not have gone in, but we did. I don't know when we can walk away or what it should look like when we do.

bootlegger10

unsung said:

rr165892 said:

Idris said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Fucked up, brain-washed, psychopathic idiots.

What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.

The U.S. or Isis?
-
We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)

You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.

The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.

That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.

and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.

It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.

Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine.
We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.

This is why I supported Ron Paul.

He firmly believes in a non-intervention policy, his critics from both sides were quick to label him as an isolationist. Our interventionist policies are the cause of much of the problems around the world, including having a large hand in what happens in the middle east.

We arm one country with planes to attack another country that we gave tanks to. We arm "rebels" in countries like Libya and Syria, but then when they use those weapons to attack our "friends" we call them terrorists. Our politicians steal from people in this country via the taxation system to send the funds to essentially arm these groups while it directly harms innocent people.

So yeah, I am very strongly saying that we should have never stuck our f-ing noses in it to begin with.

Here is a question for you: Let's say the US never went to war in Iraq. The US had no hand in the power vacuum in Iraq. Would you support the US's involvement in helping those civilians stuck in the mountains?

unsung

If we had never got ourselves involved with other issues, Libya/Syria, where we armed these people it probably wouldn't be happening in the first place.

bootlegger10

unsung said:

If we had never got ourselves involved with other issues, Libya/Syria, where we armed these people it probably wouldn't be happening in the first place.

You missed the point of the question. I'll just make it a hypothetical.

Facts:
1) A rebel group is going town to town killing and has trapped refugees in the mountains
2) US has no direct or indirect involvement in conflict
3) It is clear cut (100% agreement from all nations) that the rebels are the bad guys and the refugees are the good guys
4) The country involved has asked for US assistance
5) US has the ability to bomb the rebel group and send food and aid to the refugees

With these facts, would your foreign policy views allow for the US to help?

rr165892

unsung said:

Ok, then at what point can we walk away for good? What will it take?

Great question.I think once we can help prop up a new puppet government,that actually can take care of its own affairs in matters like this for starters.
I think "boots on the ground" we can see more hands off in the near future,but our money and silent support for another 50 years at least.As long as we want the oil,and strategic positioning in the region its going to be Avery long time before we quit breast feeding the Iraqi government.

I do think that regardless we would still be involved in this situation on a humanitarian level anyway

unsung

bootlegger10 said:

You missed the point of the question. I'll just make it a hypothetical.

Facts:
1) A rebel group is going town to town killing and has trapped refugees in the mountains
2) US has no direct or indirect involvement in conflict
3) It is clear cut (100% agreement from all nations) that the rebels are the bad guys and the refugees are the good guys
4) The country involved has asked for US assistance
5) US has the ability to bomb the rebel group and send food and aid to the refugees

With these facts, would your foreign policy views allow for the US to help?

I would support humanitarian aid but that is it. No military involvement.

And no, I did not miss the point. Your question wasn't asking about a hypothetical situation. The FACTS are that our involvement in that region of the globe creates radicals. It is more than just Iraq, or are you saying that these violators are Iraqis?

And also there are countries with better logistics that could provide support, the US doesn't hold the patent on humanitarian efforts.

benjs

Call me naive, but I wish that, rather than committing to an interventionist vs. isolationist stance, governments could treat these the way they really should: case by case, ruled by logic. Intervention is sometimes good, and sometimes devastatingly bad, but I often wonder if actions of the government are all based on an adherence to the goals promised at the time of electoral campaigning, out of fear of perceived 'flip-flopping'.

bootlegger10

unsung said:

bootlegger10 said:

You missed the point of the question. I'll just make it a hypothetical.

Facts:
1) A rebel group is going town to town killing and has trapped refugees in the mountains
2) US has no direct or indirect involvement in conflict
3) It is clear cut (100% agreement from all nations) that the rebels are the bad guys and the refugees are the good guys
4) The country involved has asked for US assistance
5) US has the ability to bomb the rebel group and send food and aid to the refugees

With these facts, would your foreign policy views allow for the US to help?

I would support humanitarian aid but that is it. No military involvement.

And no, I did not miss the point. Your question wasn't asking about a hypothetical situation. The FACTS are that our involvement in that region of the globe creates radicals. It is more than just Iraq, or are you saying that these violators are Iraqis?

And also there are countries with better logistics that could provide support, the US doesn't hold the patent on humanitarian efforts.

Clearly I was asking a question about whether the US should help innocent civilians (where the US wasn't previously involved) overseas who are helpless to stop an evil terrorist, radical group.

So it looks like you'll drop water so they aren't thirsty during their slaughter.

I understand your position though. Intervention doesn't seem to be making the world more stable. It is just crazy that in 2014 civilians are getting massacred and a country that can help wouldn't even try. Evil will florish as good men and women choose to not even try to stop it. There is no good answer.

unsung

If we want to talk specifics of this situation then my answer will include not only the specific situation but also the circumstances that lead up to it.

If we want to talk about the hypothetical then the answer is definitely shorter and easier to give.

bootlegger10

unsung said:

If we want to talk specifics of this situation then my answer will include not only the specific situation but also the circumstances that lead up to it.

If we want to talk about the hypothetical then the answer is definitely shorter and easier to give.

I'm just trying to understand your position in general. From your foreign policy perspective is there a circumstance where the US would ever fire a bullet or drop a bomb to save a group of non-US civilians?

I think I agree with most of your views, but I think it would be difficult to not stand up to ISIS and save those refugees. Easy for me to say though as I am not in the military risking my life. It is like a bully on the playground. Some kids are just helpless and someone who has the ability needs to recognize the problem and step-in. Unfortunately, the side that needs help at the time becomes the enemy at some point a lot of times.

unsung

I am conflicted. I certainly would want to help them, however I feel involvement could never exist without turning it into a years-long mission. I can't support that. No, I do not want people to die like this. At some point some other country, perhaps one of their neighbors, should stand up and do what is right. They could be next.

Idris

rr165892 said:

Idris said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Fucked up, brain-washed, psychopathic idiots.

What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.

The U.S. or Isis?
-
We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)

You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.

The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.

That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.

and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.

It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.

Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine.
We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.

oh, I'm very serious.

I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.

They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.

We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?

We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.

We created the path for ISIS to walk.

mickeyrat

unsung said:

bootlegger10 said:

You missed the point of the question. I'll just make it a hypothetical.

Facts:
1) A rebel group is going town to town killing and has trapped refugees in the mountains
2) US has no direct or indirect involvement in conflict
3) It is clear cut (100% agreement from all nations) that the rebels are the bad guys and the refugees are the good guys
4) The country involved has asked for US assistance
5) US has the ability to bomb the rebel group and send food and aid to the refugees

With these facts, would your foreign policy views allow for the US to help?

I would support humanitarian aid but that is it. No military involvement.

And no, I did not miss the point. Your question wasn't asking about a hypothetical situation. The FACTS are that our involvement in that region of the globe creates radicals. It is more than just Iraq, or are you saying that these violators are Iraqis?

And also there are countries with better logistics that could provide support, the US doesn't hold the patent on humanitarian efforts.

its been reported that these guys were known as AQ In Iraq. Refused to follow general orders from AQ central in regards to actions taken in Syria.

bootlegger10

unsung said:

I am conflicted. I certainly would want to help them, however I feel involvement could never exist without turning it into a years-long mission. I can't support that. No, I do not want people to die like this. At some point some other country, perhaps one of their neighbors, should stand up and do what is right. They could be next.

I agree that other countries need to get involved. I heartily believe that if Russia and China would think about the world versus their own interests the conflicts in the world woudl be much fewer (at least in the Middle East and North Korea).

Drowned Out

Idris said:

rr165892 said:

Idris said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Fucked up, brain-washed, psychopathic idiots.

What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.

The U.S. or Isis?
-
We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)

You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.

The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.

That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.

and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.

It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.

Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine.
We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.

oh, I'm very serious.

I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.

They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.

We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?

We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.

We created the path for ISIS to walk.

Completely accurate. Sounds like rr just doesn't like it when murderers actually get their hands dirty. Al Qaeda and ISIS are def not on par with the US/NATO in violence...we have that contest won hands down. It's all perspective.
ISIS, like Al Qaeda, is a creation of the western war machine....and not in a 'hamas is a result of the occupation' sense....these groups were actually created, armed, directed, and funded by us. The whole robbing banks and stealing arms thing might have some level of truth to it, but it is meant to obfuscate - where is the media attention to the CIA's roll with these groups in Libya and Syria?....It's casually mentioned as necessary evil, never a focal point.
And so many of us pretend like this mistake won't be like the last one. I just don't get it. We critique the past but take nothing from it. We still pick and choose which victims of violence to 'help' (with our own violence), based on the nightly news....
Obama's legal authority to resume bombing Iraq was granted under the War Powers Resolution - no need for congressional oversight, because he claims he was protecting the troops he just fucking sent there....Talk about a setup....

benjs

Drowned Out said:

Idris said:

rr165892 said:

Idris said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Fucked up, brain-washed, psychopathic idiots.

What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.

The U.S. or Isis?
-
We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)

You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.

The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.

That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.

and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.

It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.

Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine.
We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.

oh, I'm very serious.

I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.

They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.

We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?

We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.

We created the path for ISIS to walk.

Completely accurate. Sounds like rr just doesn't like it when murderers actually get their hands dirty. Al Qaeda and ISIS are def not on par with the US/NATO in violence...we have that contest won hands down. It's all perspective.
ISIS, like Al Qaeda, is a creation of the western war machine....and not in a 'hamas is a result of the occupation' sense....these groups were actually created, armed, directed, and funded by us. The whole robbing banks and stealing arms thing might have some level of truth to it, but it is meant to obfuscate - where is the media attention to the CIA's roll with these groups in Libya and Syria?....It's casually mentioned as necessary evil, never a focal point.
And so many of us pretend like this mistake won't be like the last one. I just don't get it. We critique the past but take nothing from it. We still pick and choose which victims of violence to 'help' (with our own violence), based on the nightly news....
Obama's legal authority to resume bombing Iraq was granted under the War Powers Resolution - no need for congressional oversight, because he claims he was protecting the troops he just fucking sent there....Talk about a setup....

I'd tend to agree with this statement... The different is the style of warfare. If you're facilitating weapon delivery to extremist militant groups and dropping bombs from a distance - you may be far removed from the death, but death is death, brutality is brutality, and your fingerprints are all over this bloody mess. It's the American way to distance yourself from any messiness (by the way, Canada shares the blame in this for almost entirely supporting the policies of the US).

It's a strange allusion, but it makes me think of Food, Inc. - how many people would cease to eat red meat after a visit to a slaughterhouse? Instead, we go to the grocery store and get a lovely, sliced piece of meat on top of a packet to catch the blood and juices, with styrofoam underneath it, and a piece of cling wrap with a sticker showing a beautifully prepared steak on top. It may be a mask for brutality, but it doesn't change the events which transpired, or the outcome (dead animals). PS, I'm not advocating vegetarianism - I love meat. It's been interesting travelling to some developing nations: from my experience, when I order fish, and there's a full fish on my plate with its head still on - it's going to be delicious. We don't do that in North America. We give a loin, already scaled, or something that we can't compare to a living, breathing animal. We're okay with the death - just not the brutality, or the emotions that come with it.

JimmyV

We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.

All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.

None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.