Elliot Rodger - California killing spree - all the issues

24567…16

Comments

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    edited May 2014
    hedonist said:

    Not discounting his use of the gun at all and agree there were too many imbalances left unchecked.

    I wonder too about what he expected himself to be toward women. I find caricatures in our culture and the media of men almost as often as I do of women. Most hip-hop and rap videos I've seen (granted, not many) feature men in nice or over-the-top cars, wearing gaudy jewelry and women.



    I don't think that caricatures or stereotypes of women is necessarily the issue here (or just a small part of a much bigger one), but since you mention it, the kind of stereotyping of men you mention doesn't actually do anything to harm men's position in society (or none that I can think of). They're also not ubiquitous messages about men. The same cannot be said about stereotypes about women.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • unsung
    unsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. I'm not sure what else the father expects, would his wrath be directed at knife makers if his kid were in that dorm room?

    He needs to blame the killer, maybe the police, but nobody else.
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    unsung said:

    California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. I'm not sure what else the father expects, would his wrath be directed at knife makers if his kid were in that dorm room?

    He needs to blame the killer, maybe the police, but nobody else.

    Give the guy a break. Let him blame whoever the fuck he wants. He lost a child. I'd blame every single soul on the fucking planet if I lost one of my kids like that.
  • goingtoverona
    goingtoverona Posts: 616
    what I don't understand is, when the family called the mental health people, the mental health people called the cops and the cops went and visited him, why would we send a cop to evaluate a human beings mental health? why didn't the mental health people accompany the cops? you don't call a plumber to fix your cabinets. just goes to show we don't know what we are doing when it comes to peoples mental health.
    if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
  • Its Evolution Baby
    Its Evolution Baby Posts: 849
    As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

    If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

    Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.
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  • jmuscatello
    jmuscatello Colorado Posts: 332
    What seems tragic to me is that his family was concerned enough to get the police to make contact with him and it didn't do anything to prevent this. I don't think most people realize how difficult it is to get a potentially (or clearly) dangerous mentally ill person off the streets for evaluation. I had a family member very far gone (full-blown psychosis, hallucinations, paranoia), and he could still somehow convince police he was okay. It took us months, even with family, lawyers, psychiatrists involved - it was a real eye-opener.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Its Evolution Baby said:

    As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

    If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

    Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.

    his mental issues were never reported or put to record,had they been he would not have been able to buy those gun's and that is where the problem is, if his parents felt he had mental issues or even a teacher or a friend then there should be some way to have him..or anybody evaluated buy a doctor and from there he should have been banned from buying guns or anything related, a lot of people are on the anti gun kick but how many are willing to go as far as talk to police or a county offical abourt a family member or friend and recomend an evaluation ? we can't keep blaming the gun companys or the gun's if we arn't willing to take some sort of responisabilty ourselfs, it seems every time this happens there is a mental issue brought up after the shooting or killing and by then it is too late..why did these people and parents wait until the family member or friend or student cracked to say that this person had mental issues or displayed dangerous or threatining behavior ?

    Godfather.

  • jmuscatello
    jmuscatello Colorado Posts: 332
    edited May 2014
    . botched edit ;-)

    Post edited by jmuscatello on
  • jmuscatello
    jmuscatello Colorado Posts: 332
    edited May 2014
    jmuscatello said:

    Godfather. said:

    Its Evolution Baby said:

    As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

    If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

    Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.

    his mental issues were never reported or put to record,had they been he would not have been able to buy those gun's and that is where the problem is, if his parents felt he had mental issues or even a teacher or a friend then there should be some way to have him..or anybody evaluated buy a doctor and from there he should have been banned from buying guns or anything related, a lot of people are on the anti gun kick but how many are willing to go as far as talk to police or a county offical abourt a family member or friend and recomend an evaluation ? we can't keep blaming the gun companys or the gun's if we arn't willing to take some sort of responisabilty ourselfs, it seems every time this happens there is a mental issue brought up after the shooting or killing and by then it is too late..why did these people and parents wait until the family member or friend or student cracked to say that this person had mental issues or displayed dangerous or threatining behavior ?

    Godfather.

    I'm guessing you haven't been there GF, because you have no idea how it works (doesn't work). If you think that family members can just call 911 and have the guys in white coats show up and take care of everything, I'm here to tell you it doesn't work that way. Mental facilities do not have beds. Back up plan - Hospital ERs - even with local family members there to physically get the person in, even when you call them from the other side of the country to tell them the background and the urgency, even when they assure you that they are equipped to handle a mental health emergency, they usually are not. They give the patient a shot of ativan to get them functional enough to walk out of there and release them with the recommendation they go for a full voluntary evaluation at a psych hospital. These people are able to "pass" repeated contact with police. Even if the system is working and you are able to get them involuntary commitment, it's usually 24 hours! If you are able to get them into psychiatrist's care, they can discontinue treatment without anyone in the family being notified (HIPPA). I went through months calling our family member's psychiatrist on the other side of the country who was not authorized to talk to me or anyone else in the family (patient-authorization required), but wanted input from the family. The entire process was unbelievable to me.

    I'm not here to argue the guns thing with you (although my family member was able to get one EASILY during their psychosis without any of us knowing it). But to take what little is known now and blame the family is totally irresponsible. They saw this coming and I'm sure the outcome was their worst nightmare. The kid had been in therapy. If you knew how mental health emergencies are typically handled in the US (not in theory but in reality) I honestly don't think you would be blaming his family.


    Post edited by jmuscatello on
  • jmuscatello
    jmuscatello Colorado Posts: 332
    edited May 2014
    .
    Post edited by jmuscatello on
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Godfather. said:


    his mental issues were never reported or put to record,had they been he would not have been able to buy those gun's and that is where the problem is, if his parents felt he had mental issues or even a teacher or a friend then there should be some way to have him..or anybody evaluated buy a doctor and from there he should have been banned from buying guns or anything related, a lot of people are on the anti gun kick but how many are willing to go as far as talk to police or a county offical abourt a family member or friend and recomend an evaluation ? we can't keep blaming the gun companys or the gun's if we arn't willing to take some sort of responisabilty ourselfs, it seems every time this happens there is a mental issue brought up after the shooting or killing and by then it is too late..why did these people and parents wait until the family member or friend or student cracked to say that this person had mental issues or displayed dangerous or threatining behavior ?

    Godfather.

    It was reported and he was able to buy the guns.

    Nothing came of the family reaching out, and (legal?) parameters prevented him from being involuntarily put into a hospital or other type of mental health facility.


  • jmuscatello
    jmuscatello Colorado Posts: 332
    edited May 2014
    jmuscatello said:

    http://denverpost.com/news/ci_25680316/nra-others-see-colorado-mental-health-bill-gun

    and not to be obnoxious on the gun thing, but honestly take a minute and read this GF. THIS is why people like me find at least partial blame in the gun lobby. This was a civil commitment bill, not a guns bill.

    if that link broken try this one
    http://www.conewsfeed.com/denver/nra-others-see-colorado-mental-health-bill-as-gun-grab/
    Post edited by jmuscatello on
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    It should be very difficult to incarcerate an individual for mental health issues.
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    callen said:

    It should be very difficult to incarcerate an individual for mental health issues.

    Well it should be impossible to incarcerate anyone who hasn't broken the law.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Maybe the answer is... 'Just another day in America. Business as usual.'
    Because that's what it is. We all know NOTHING WILL BE DONE TO CHANGE ANYTHING except the re-hashed rhetoric on cable television.
    Maybe, America just needs to accept the consequences for the choices she makes. As Americans, we apparently just need to accept unacceptable loss of life and the heartache left in its wake because we have cherish our free access to guns more than the lives of the lost.
    ...
    U!!! S!!! A!!! - U!!! S!!! A!!! - U!!! S!!! A!!!
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    jmuscatello said:

    jmuscatello said:

    Godfather. said:

    Its Evolution Baby said:

    As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

    If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

    Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.

    his mental issues were never reported or put to record,had they been he would not have been able to buy those gun's and that is where the problem is, if his parents felt he had mental issues or even a teacher or a friend then there should be some way to have him..or anybody evaluated buy a doctor and from there he should have been banned from buying guns or anything related, a lot of people are on the anti gun kick but how many are willing to go as far as talk to police or a county offical abourt a family member or friend and recomend an evaluation ? we can't keep blaming the gun companys or the gun's if we arn't willing to take some sort of responisabilty ourselfs, it seems every time this happens there is a mental issue brought up after the shooting or killing and by then it is too late..why did these people and parents wait until the family member or friend or student cracked to say that this person had mental issues or displayed dangerous or threatining behavior ?

    Godfather.

    I'm guessing you haven't been there GF, because you have no idea how it works (doesn't work). If you think that family members can just call 911 and have the guys in white coats show up and take care of everything, I'm here to tell you it doesn't work that way. Mental facilities do not have beds. Back up plan - Hospital ERs - even with local family members there to physically get the person in, even when you call them from the other side of the country to tell them the background and the urgency, even when they assure you that they are equipped to handle a mental health emergency, they usually are not. They give the patient a shot of ativan to get them functional enough to walk out of there and release them with the recommendation they go for a full voluntary evaluation at a psych hospital. These people are able to "pass" repeated contact with police. Even if the system is working and you are able to get them involuntary commitment, it's usually 24 hours! If you are able to get them into psychiatrist's care, they can discontinue treatment without anyone in the family being notified (HIPPA). I went through months calling our family member's psychiatrist on the other side of the country who was not authorized to talk to me or anyone else in the family (patient-authorization required), but wanted input from the family. The entire process was unbelievable to me.

    I'm not here to argue the guns thing with you (although my family member was able to get one EASILY during their psychosis without any of us knowing it). But to take what little is known now and blame the family is totally irresponsible. They saw this coming and I'm sure the outcome was their worst nightmare. The kid had been in therapy. If you knew how mental health emergencies are typically handled in the US (not in theory but in reality) I honestly don't think you would be blaming his family.


    I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking mental hosiptals or patients,I was thinking if these things were put into the same info/database that police have filed on people then it would come up on a back ground check and stopping the sale of a gun to that person, I don't have all the answers but I have an idea to help and as common as the idea is I am suprised it has not been used but I'm sure that there are lots of loop holes and gray areas that would need to be gone over.

    Godfather.

  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    jmuscatello said:

    jmuscatello said:

    http://denverpost.com/news/ci_25680316/nra-others-see-colorado-mental-health-bill-gun

    and not to be obnoxious on the gun thing, but honestly take a minute and read this GF. THIS is why people like me find at least partial blame in the gun lobby. This was a civil commitment bill, not a guns bill.

    if that link broken try this one
    http://www.conewsfeed.com/denver/nra-others-see-colorado-mental-health-bill-as-gun-grab/
    both links are blocked, I'm at work but I will rtry later when I get home.


    Godfather.

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    Cosmo said:

    Maybe the answer is... 'Just another day in America. Business as usual.'
    Because that's what it is. We all know NOTHING WILL BE DONE TO CHANGE ANYTHING except the re-hashed rhetoric on cable television.
    Maybe, America just needs to accept the consequences for the choices she makes. As Americans, we apparently just need to accept unacceptable loss of life and the heartache left in its wake because we have cherish our free access to guns more than the lives of the lost.
    ...
    U!!! S!!! A!!! - U!!! S!!! A!!! - U!!! S!!! A!!!

    Oh, I dunno. That sounds like a dangerous attitude. The USA has been known to confront problems and do things to help fix them. Sometimes it takes a long time for it to happen, but I don't think there is any reason to assume helpful changes will NEVER happen.... I mean, maybe not. But maybe! Hopefully. Of course they definitely won't if people just accept what is, accept things as they are, and stop fighting for progress and positive change.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • unsung
    unsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    A psychotic who, because he couldn't find a girlfriend, goes on a premeditated murder spree, using knives, a car, and guns and it's the NRA's fault. Got it.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    unsung said:

    A psychotic who, because he couldn't find a girlfriend, goes on a premeditated murder spree, using knives, a car, and guns and it's the NRA's fault. Got it.

    Is that what you're reading here???? 8-}
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata

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