Elliot Rodger - California killing spree - all the issues

PJ_Soul

Well I'm really surprised there isn't already a thread about this, particularly given the underlying issues surrounding the case.

As you see on the 2 videos in the article linked below, this case has again brought up the gun laws issue in the US; one of the victim's dads has pinpointed gun laws as the thing to fight for in his grief. And yes, of course that is a major ongoing problem in America. But holy fucking hell, I think the real issue that this case brings up is how women are still viewed in our society. That this fucking psycho decided to go out and kill people because he feels rejected by women is obviously somewhat unique (not a one-of-a-kind occurrence though), but I think that a lot of what lies behind his attitude towards women is incredibly common. Thoughts?

Another MAJOR issue is, of course, the way the cops completely dropped the ball with this guy. Seems like a pretty preventable crime IMO.

And then beyond, that, holy fucking shit, this guy is FUCKED!!!!! HIs manifestos, his youtube video, his email to his family (omg, imagine being those parents?!). Gee, I wonder why women weren't into him??? :-??

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27579128

hedonist

I've heard he had high-functioning Asberger's, which may or may not have played a part.

Those videos and his writings creep me the fuck out...they, and he, strike me as cold and delusional. An understatement, actually.

I guess his ability to acquire so many guns and ammunition is an issue here, though keep in mind he stabbed his roommates and another young man. He had the will and seems like he used whatever ways he could.

What stands out most to me is how many warning signs and visits to his home there were - so many cries for help from his family, yet nothing came from any of it.

How?

Much more to be said and learned about this. Meantime, it's heartbreaking that this happened and that it appears it could've been prevented.

hedonist

And I need to give the women aspect more thought. Somehow I think this kid was so fucked up that any general type of target could've been named (one of his videos talked about retribution against both humanity and women).

PJ_Soul

I don't think high-functioning Asberger's is likely to have anything to do with this - it would just seem like something some might throw out as some kind of excuse. I should think that those with high-functioning Asberger's would take offense to the hypothesis. If this mental-case does have it, then my assumption would be that it's an unfortunate coincidence. Because honestly, I've known people with high-functioning Asberger's who are better adjusted than a lot of people without it. In fact, I've heard arguments about how it's more often than not a misdiagnosis applied to children who simply have personality quirks, a lot like is done to a lot of kids who supposedly have ADHD but are in fact simply normal high-energy children.

dignin

My facebook feed today is full of articles about "extreme misogyny" being the root cause here....which I think is ridiculous. This kid was sick. To blame this on him hating women for not dating him his pretty simplistic. Not to mention four of his murder victims were male.

As to the other issues, seems like just another day in the good ol u s of a.

hedonist

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think high-functioning Asberger's is likely to have anything to do with this - it would just seem like something some might throw out as some kind of excuse. I should think that those with high-functioning Asberger's would take offense to the hypothesis. If this mental-case does have it, then my assumption would be that it's an unfortunate coincidence. Because honestly, I've known people with high-functioning Asberger's who are better adjusted than a lot of people without it. In fact, I've heard arguments about how it's more often than not a misdiagnosis applied to children who simply have personality quirks, a lot like is done to a lot of kids who supposedly have ADHD but are in fact simply normal high-energy children.

Yeah, that's why I was wondering about this.

Just given the bit I've seen to date, I'd put that and the misogyny theories aside.

(says the armchair psychiatrist)

PJ_Soul

I actually totally disagree about misogyny being a non-issue. Yes, of COURSE this dude is crazy-pants and that's ultimately why he did this. However, I think he pulled his specific grievances (real or imagined) from reality. His attitude about women is not just generated within his own head. He got those ideas from society. The fact that he went on a rampage because of these ideas is a separate issue, but this attitude towards women and how many men view them is absolutely NOT unique. That's why I think how women are viewed in society is actually a major issue brought up by this guy's actions/declared motives. Look at this way: if this guy's "manifesto" was all about how visible minorities were the cause of his actions, no one would be saying "bah, this has nothing to do with racism in America!" No way. People would be saying, yeah, the guy's fucked, and this case is yet another reflection of our racism problem in society (among other things of course, like mental health, police vigilance, etc etc). I see no difference here. Just replace "visible minority" with "women".

dignin

PJ_Soul said:

I actually totally disagree about misogyny being a non-issue. Yes, of COURSE this dude is crazy-pants and that's ultimately why he did this. However, I think he pulled his specific grievances (real or imagined) from reality. His attitude about women is not just generated within his own head. He got those ideas from society. The fact that he went on a rampage because of these ideas is a separate issue, but this attitude towards women and how many men view them is absolutely NOT unique. That's why I think how women are viewed in society is actually a major issue brought up by this guy's actions/declared motives. Look at this way: if this guy's "manifesto" was all about how visible minorities were the cause of his actions, no one would be saying "bah, this has nothing to do with racism in America!" No way. People would be saying, yeah, the guy's fucked, and this case is yet another reflection of our racism problem in society (among other things of course, like mental health, police vigilance, etc etc). I see no difference here. Just replace "visible minority" with "women".

I think you could also put it this way, what if he blamed the little green men for his rampage? Would we take him seriously? Street runs both ways. Fact is we know little about this kid and his mental state right now, we may never know. We know only what he wants us to know from his manifesto and video, an image he carefully crafted. I wouldn't look to deep into it yet.

I agree that there is a conversation to be had about misogyny in our society, but I don't know that it belongs here.

hedonist

Fair enough - I haven't read that thing in its entirety (not sure I will or want to).

Maybe his thoughts toward women aren't solely brought about within his mind, but his mind DID spin reality.

Maybe the young women he approached sensed how off he was. A kind of circular thing.

PJ_Soul

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

I actually totally disagree about misogyny being a non-issue. Yes, of COURSE this dude is crazy-pants and that's ultimately why he did this. However, I think he pulled his specific grievances (real or imagined) from reality. His attitude about women is not just generated within his own head. He got those ideas from society. The fact that he went on a rampage because of these ideas is a separate issue, but this attitude towards women and how many men view them is absolutely NOT unique. That's why I think how women are viewed in society is actually a major issue brought up by this guy's actions/declared motives. Look at this way: if this guy's "manifesto" was all about how visible minorities were the cause of his actions, no one would be saying "bah, this has nothing to do with racism in America!" No way. People would be saying, yeah, the guy's fucked, and this case is yet another reflection of our racism problem in society (among other things of course, like mental health, police vigilance, etc etc). I see no difference here. Just replace "visible minority" with "women".

I think you could also put it this way, what if he blamed the little green men for his rampage? Would we take him seriously? Street runs both ways. Fact is we know little about this kid and his mental state right now, we may never know. We know only what he wants us to know from his manifesto and video, an image he carefully crafted. I wouldn't look to deep into it yet.

I agree that there is a conversation to be had about misogyny in our society, but I don't know think that it belongs here.

Sorry, but I think there is a huge difference between ideas spawned by real social issues and ideas that are a total figment of the imagination. I don't agree with your comparison.
What we DO know is that a lot of the things he suggested about women and his attitude towards them are very real attitudes in society. He didn't pluck his ideas out of thin air, and therefore misogyny is very much a relevant conversation to be having here. This guy was very obviously impacted by these attitudes that very much exist. It doesn't mean that he wouldn't have done something nuts anyway, but actually we don't know that for sure. Either way, the issue is incredibly relevant to this event and in general just as racism would be if he'd sited that as his reason for his actions.

Merkin Baller

In my opinion, it feels a little premature to blame this shooting on our misogynistic society.

(could it have been a contributing factor? Absolutely, and there could be a lot of other factors that haven't come to light yet also - why not blame our materialistic culture? From what I've read, he thought he needed to be super wealthy to live a good life & hated his mom for not marrying rich. . . . . I think there's a lot more unknown than what is known right now - just my $0.02)

PJ_Soul

Merkin Baller said:

In my opinion, it feels a little premature to blame this shooting on our misogynistic society.

(could it have been a contributing factor? Absolutely, and there could be a lot of other factors that haven't come to light yet also)

I think his youtube video makes it 100% fact that our misogynistic society played a role (blaming the shooting on it is not the same thing). If our society were different in this matter then these particular ideas never would have entered this guy's head in the first place. The point I'm making is not that our societal views on women is the cause of this guy's actions. My point is that it raises the issue just as it raises the issue of gun laws and police action. It is actually baffling to me that it is this particular topic that people seem to be going out of their way to avoid. The same hasn't happened with any of the other issues arising from this or with comparable issues in other events like this. But suddenly when it's this particular topic everyone seems to want to pretend it doesn't even exist, or even if it does it has nothing to do with the murders committed by a guy who basically wrote a book and goes on an internet rant about this very subject right before the killings. Wtf is going on here??

hedonist

Are you talking about the people here who've commented so far, or others? I haven't seen anyone in the thread ducking this at all; in fact, they give room toward the possibility of it playing a part.

Hopefully some healthy discussions will take place, but as was mentioned, premature to come to hard conclusions two days after the fact.

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

Are you talking about the people here who've commented so far, or others? I haven't seen anyone in the thread ducking this at all; in fact, they give room toward the possibility of it playing a part.

Hopefully some healthy discussions will take place, but as was mentioned, premature to come to hard conclusions two days after the fact.

No, I'm talking generally... generally. There does seem to be some ducking of the issue here too.

I don't think it's premature to discuss this matter though. How can it be? We don't need any more facts to come out for this to be an issue. We don't need "proof" of anything for this to be an issue. The guy went off about it in a manifesto and claimed that it was his motive (obviously there are a lot of other factors to consider here). What more do we need to consider misogyny to be one part of this puzzle??? What kind of info are you guys waiting for before you deem this a topic relevant enough to have a healthy discussion about it?

(I'm also just a little surprised that no one is discussing anything related to this case at all, lol. There is a lot to talk about.... Has it finally happened? Has American apathy when it comes to shooting sprees finally won over concern to the point where it's not even a topic of conversation when it happens anymore?)

unsung

Police knew of the videos and did nothing. Another example of all the flags showing themselves and the right people doing nothing.

More laws wouldn't have done anything to prevent this person from doing what he did. I feel bad for the father but his anger is directed at the wrong people.

hedonist

Well, it's been all over the news here and on my mind since I heard about it Saturday morning. I really didn't have much to say, but that's not at all a reflection of not caring on my part.

Honestly, I don't see anyone's comments so far dismissing the notion that this could've played a role. I also imagine there's a shitload of other (and not necessarily less) important factors for someone to plan and carry out such fuckedupness.

PJ_Soul

unsung said:

Police knew of the videos and did nothing. Another example of all the flags showing themselves and the right people doing nothing.

More laws wouldn't have done anything to prevent this person from doing what he did. I feel bad for the father but his anger is directed at the wrong people.

Well, this kid has been treated for mental health issues since he was a little kid AND police had questioned him, but he was still able to get guns.... were these guns legally purchased? If so, when? Depending on the answers, the issue of gun laws is indeed a major point of consideration here.

But yeah, it kind of looks like the police fucked up big time. Same old story really. There were tons of warning signs, and no one acted. Apathy strikes again.

hedonist

The guns were legally purchased, fairly locally.

I assume the knife (knives?) and car as well.

I don't think not having a gun would've made much of a difference given his intent, but what do I know.

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

Well, it's been all over the news here and on my mind since I heard about it Saturday morning. I really didn't have much to say, but that's not at all a reflection of not caring on my part.

Honestly, I don't see anyone's comments so far dismissing the notion that this could've played a role. I also imagine there's a shitload of other (and not necessarily less) important factors for someone to plan and carry out such fuckedupness.

Many other issues of course! That's just one of them, and it stands out to me because it happens to be an issue that sees so little attention and draws so little passion and debate despite the fact that it is probably one of the most alarming and prevalent problems in society today.

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

The guns were legally purchased, fairly locally.

I assume the knife (knives?) and car as well.

I don't think not having a gun would've made much of a difference given his intent, but what do I know.

Well, I am willing to bet that the people in that store that he shot up might have a different view on that matter.
The use of a knife actually doesn't lessen the role the gun played, especially not in the minds of those who got shot or lost a loved one to a legally purchased bullet from a legally purchased gun, administered by a dude with a history of mental illness and who had left clues to his impending crime that the cops knew about. Someone with that resume shouldn't have been able to buy a gun, and that is a major issue, knife or no knife.

hedonist

Not discounting his use of the gun at all and agree there were too many imbalances left unchecked.

I wonder too about what he expected himself to be toward women. I find caricatures in our culture and the media of men almost as often as I do of women. Most hip-hop and rap videos I've seen (granted, not many) feature men in nice or over-the-top cars, wearing gaudy jewelry and women.

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

Not discounting his use of the gun at all and agree there were too many imbalances left unchecked.

I wonder too about what he expected himself to be toward women. I find caricatures in our culture and the media of men almost as often as I do of women. Most hip-hop and rap videos I've seen (granted, not many) feature men in nice or over-the-top cars, wearing gaudy jewelry and women.

I don't think that caricatures or stereotypes of women is necessarily the issue here (or just a small part of a much bigger one), but since you mention it, the kind of stereotyping of men you mention doesn't actually do anything to harm men's position in society (or none that I can think of). They're also not ubiquitous messages about men. The same cannot be said about stereotypes about women.

unsung

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. I'm not sure what else the father expects, would his wrath be directed at knife makers if his kid were in that dorm room?

He needs to blame the killer, maybe the police, but nobody else.

Last-12-Exit

unsung said:

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. I'm not sure what else the father expects, would his wrath be directed at knife makers if his kid were in that dorm room?

He needs to blame the killer, maybe the police, but nobody else.

Give the guy a break. Let him blame whoever the fuck he wants. He lost a child. I'd blame every single soul on the fucking planet if I lost one of my kids like that.

goingtoverona

what I don't understand is, when the family called the mental health people, the mental health people called the cops and the cops went and visited him, why would we send a cop to evaluate a human beings mental health? why didn't the mental health people accompany the cops? you don't call a plumber to fix your cabinets. just goes to show we don't know what we are doing when it comes to peoples mental health.

Its Evolution Baby

As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.

jmuscatello

What seems tragic to me is that his family was concerned enough to get the police to make contact with him and it didn't do anything to prevent this. I don't think most people realize how difficult it is to get a potentially (or clearly) dangerous mentally ill person off the streets for evaluation. I had a family member very far gone (full-blown psychosis, hallucinations, paranoia), and he could still somehow convince police he was okay. It took us months, even with family, lawyers, psychiatrists involved - it was a real eye-opener.

Godfather.

Its Evolution Baby said:

As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.

his mental issues were never reported or put to record,had they been he would not have been able to buy those gun's and that is where the problem is, if his parents felt he had mental issues or even a teacher or a friend then there should be some way to have him..or anybody evaluated buy a doctor and from there he should have been banned from buying guns or anything related, a lot of people are on the anti gun kick but how many are willing to go as far as talk to police or a county offical abourt a family member or friend and recomend an evaluation ? we can't keep blaming the gun companys or the gun's if we arn't willing to take some sort of responisabilty ourselfs, it seems every time this happens there is a mental issue brought up after the shooting or killing and by then it is too late..why did these people and parents wait until the family member or friend or student cracked to say that this person had mental issues or displayed dangerous or threatining behavior ?

Godfather.

jmuscatello

. botched edit ;-)

jmuscatello

jmuscatello said:

Godfather. said:

Its Evolution Baby said:

As a Gaucho this tragedy hit really close to home. A few things you can't commit the atrocities he committed with just a knife so ABSOLUTELY this is at least partially a gun issue. If he some how purchased these guns legally with his mental state then we have problems.

If this was negligence on a the gun sellers part then the business needs to be shut down. California does have strict gun laws so maybe it's time to enforce the laws we have before adding new laws.

Mental health is the biggest issue here. It's time to stop fucking around and get these threats to society committed. We spend enough money on useless crap in our government we can make room for more spending on mental hospitals so these sick bastards are off our streets and not buying weapons.

his mental issues were never reported or put to record,had they been he would not have been able to buy those gun's and that is where the problem is, if his parents felt he had mental issues or even a teacher or a friend then there should be some way to have him..or anybody evaluated buy a doctor and from there he should have been banned from buying guns or anything related, a lot of people are on the anti gun kick but how many are willing to go as far as talk to police or a county offical abourt a family member or friend and recomend an evaluation ? we can't keep blaming the gun companys or the gun's if we arn't willing to take some sort of responisabilty ourselfs, it seems every time this happens there is a mental issue brought up after the shooting or killing and by then it is too late..why did these people and parents wait until the family member or friend or student cracked to say that this person had mental issues or displayed dangerous or threatining behavior ?

Godfather.

I'm guessing you haven't been there GF, because you have no idea how it works (doesn't work). If you think that family members can just call 911 and have the guys in white coats show up and take care of everything, I'm here to tell you it doesn't work that way. Mental facilities do not have beds. Back up plan - Hospital ERs - even with local family members there to physically get the person in, even when you call them from the other side of the country to tell them the background and the urgency, even when they assure you that they are equipped to handle a mental health emergency, they usually are not. They give the patient a shot of ativan to get them functional enough to walk out of there and release them with the recommendation they go for a full voluntary evaluation at a psych hospital. These people are able to "pass" repeated contact with police. Even if the system is working and you are able to get them involuntary commitment, it's usually 24 hours! If you are able to get them into psychiatrist's care, they can discontinue treatment without anyone in the family being notified (HIPPA). I went through months calling our family member's psychiatrist on the other side of the country who was not authorized to talk to me or anyone else in the family (patient-authorization required), but wanted input from the family. The entire process was unbelievable to me.

I'm not here to argue the guns thing with you (although my family member was able to get one EASILY during their psychosis without any of us knowing it). But to take what little is known now and blame the family is totally irresponsible. They saw this coming and I'm sure the outcome was their worst nightmare. The kid had been in therapy. If you knew how mental health emergencies are typically handled in the US (not in theory but in reality) I honestly don't think you would be blaming his family.

jmuscatello

.