PJ_Soul I agree murder is unexcusable but in this case and others like it I have zero sympathy and even less thought on the matter I don't care if he clenched his teeth till they shattered and begged for death, maybe they should go back to the gallos and rope.
Godfather.
Yes, fine. I also said that I don't have any sympathy. Sympathy or the feelings of the dead guy has nothing to do with it.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
wouldn't that be a perfectly good waste of heroin? bullets, lots & lots of bullets. actually the current method works just dandy as this clown is not alive nor well.
I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that the people trying to murder him are the same people who took him to the hospital to try and save him so that they can try and murder him again later. Talk about barbaric and fucking sick and twisted.
What this criminal did is totally irrelevant to this discussion IMHO. How I feel about that creep has no bearing for me. To be clear I feel no sympathy for him at all (but I do have plenty for his family). No matter how bad he or anyone else on death row is, nothing can justify a government murdering its citizens out of pure revenge. I can't believe people think that governments committing this act is anything other than fucking primitive and complete embarrassment for what people like to call a civilized society.
Well, yet ANOTHER reason to be against government sanctioned murder of its own citizens, as though I didn't have enough reasons already.
Don't yell too loudly from your soapbox. I'm glad your experiences have brought you to such a 'civilized' state of mind above all us primitive people... but if someone close to you got raped, shot, and buried alive amid their tormentors' laughter... something tells me you might be finding some reasons to support capital punishment.
Dude, don't act like a jerk. What's with the soapbox/yelling comment? You have problems with someone strongly expressing their views now?? And I didn't call you primitive. I called the practice of the government murdering citizens primitive. Huge difference. I wouldn't call some dad who went out and shot his daughter's rapist in the face primitive.
Something tells me that you don't know me at all, so don't presume how I'd feel if someone close to me was murdered. It's a stupid assumption anyway. Loads and loads of victims' family members have stated that the execution of the person who committed the crime did absolutely nothing for them or their recovery. Others have come out as strong opponents to the death penalty. Sorry, but you're the one who came off as high and mighty there with your assumptions.
I would NEVER support capital punishment. And FYI, I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death. But the main point is that I wouldn't want to live under a government who murders people. Period. Luckily, I don't, and I'm glad.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
My take on the Death Penalty is this... I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me. I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states. ... I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should. ... And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
There are loads of cases where people who were put to death were found innocent. Just google it. Piles of credible sources (and many exonerations) about it.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
My take on the Death Penalty is this... I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me. I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states. ... I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should. ... And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.
That is also my problem. Basically it's this:
When the justice system is 100% INFALLIBLE, then I might not mind so much. But of course, there is a never will be an infallible justice system. It is flawed and overtaxed and corrupt and always will be.
And that's a nice line about being like Jesus and less like Christians. No fucking doubt. I don't think that I could forgive someone like some are able to (I know that they are). But I am confident that I wouldn't lust for blood either. Violence begets violence - I don't want to be a part of that.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that the people trying to murder him are the same people who took him to the hospital to try and save him so that they can try and murder him again later. Talk about barbaric and fucking sick and twisted.
What this criminal did is totally irrelevant to this discussion IMHO. How I feel about that creep has no bearing for me. To be clear I feel no sympathy for him at all (but I do have plenty for his family). No matter how bad he or anyone else on death row is, nothing can justify a government murdering its citizens out of pure revenge. I can't believe people think that governments committing this act is anything other than fucking primitive and complete embarrassment for what people like to call a civilized society.
Well, yet ANOTHER reason to be against government sanctioned murder of its own citizens, as though I didn't have enough reasons already.
Don't yell too loudly from your soapbox. I'm glad your experiences have brought you to such a 'civilized' state of mind above all us primitive people... but if someone close to you got raped, shot, and buried alive amid their tormentors' laughter... something tells me you might be finding some reasons to support capital punishment.
Dude, don't act like a jerk. What's with the soapbox/yelling comment? You have problems with someone strongly expressing their views now?? And I didn't call you primitive. I called the practice of the government murdering citizens primitive. Huge difference. I wouldn't call some dad who went out and shot his daughter's rapist in the face primitive.
Something tells me that you don't know me at all, so don't presume how I'd feel if someone close to me was murdered. It's a stupid assumption anyway. Loads and loads of victims' family members have stated that the execution of the person who committed the crime did absolutely nothing for them or their recovery. Others have come out as strong opponents to the death penalty. Sorry, but you're the one who came off as high and mighty there with your assumptions.
I would NEVER support capital punishment. And FYI, I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death. But the main point is that I wouldn't want to live under a government who murders people. Period. Luckily, I don't, and I'm glad.
Come on. You did speak strongly and there were several unflattering inferences that are easily made from what you wrote. Don't hide behind the I didn't call you stupid... I said what you did was stupid deflection tactic.
When you use words like 'murder' and 'fucking primitive' and 'revenge' and 'embarrassment' and make a reference to being 'uncivilized' to support your position... you probably should have known there would be some form of a challenge to those statements and I offered one.
And loads and loads of victims' family members may have, to some degree, forgiven the murderer of their loved ones... but get serious... this is the exception and hardly the norm.
When you say I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death... isn't this slightly contradictory to some of the statements you have offered about having a revenge mentality?
By the way... you are one of the few Canadians I know who feel our weak penal system is anything to feel great about. We most certainly do not have things figured out by any stretch of the imagination. I could point to countless failings, but I'm pretty sure you know of several yourself.
My take on the Death Penalty is this... I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me. I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states. ... I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should. ... And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.
That is also my problem. Basically it's this:
When the justice system is 100% INFALLIBLE, then I might not mind so much. But of course, there is a never will be an infallible justice system. It is flawed and overtaxed and corrupt and always will be.
And that's a nice line about being like Jesus and less like Christians. No fucking doubt. I don't think that I could forgive someone like some are able to (I know that they are). But I am confident that I wouldn't lust for blood either. Violence begets violence - I don't want to be a part of that.
See... now here's more of a 'middle way' approach to the topic. I appreciate the statement that you 'might' reconsider your stance if you could be assured the system was 100% infallible. I have said several times that the idea of an innocent man getting executed gives me pause for thought, so I am willing to open my mind to the possibility of my stance being poorly formulated. However, as fortunate or unfortunate as it might be... all I need to do is think of Clifford Olsen or Michael Rafferty and I'm back.
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
... My point is... i do not believe our courts system is perfect. If it were, then guilty people would not be set free, either... would they? But, we know that happens from time to time... that's what matters... not a numeric value on a score sheet. I do believe that we have one of the best justice systems on the planet... but, it is just not served up as fair as it proclaims to be. Justice... she may be blind, but the people her serve her are not. To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
... My point is... i do not believe our courts system is perfect. If it were, then guilty people would not be set free, either... would they? But, we know that happens from time to time... that's what matters... not a numeric value on a score sheet. I do believe that we have one of the best justice systems on the planet... but, it is just not served up as fair as it proclaims to be. Justice... she may be blind, but the people her serve her are not. To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The problem I have with this is the fact that... it's not enough we tender mercy and imprison our most heinous murderers... we then offer them a quality of life and work to release them. They eat better than our minimum wage families, receive great health care, read books, play sports, work out, get married, play video games and all sorts of other fun activities until they finally get paroled or are released for a second chance at life... while their victims lie sewn back together in their coffins.
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
...
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
...
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
I could live with this... and 'life in prison' meant 'life in prison'.
The problem I have with this is the fact that... it's not enough we tender mercy and imprison our most heinous murderers... we then offer them a quality of life and work to release them. They eat better than our minimum wage families, receive great health care, read books, play sports, work out, get married, play video games and all sorts of other fun activities until they finally get paroled or are released for a second chance at life... while their victims lie sewn back together in their coffins.
And I'm supposed to think this is justice?
... I believe the 20 year old that is serving 25 years because back in the 'Just Say No' years he was caught drivng a Buick Regal with 2 pound of pot in his trunk should be rehabilitated (especially now, because pot is legal) and set free after doing his time... but, NOT the person who shoots a woman in the eye and buries her in the marshlands while she is still taking breaths. I would rather see the latter spend the rest of his life in a maximum security facility... where we keep only the most dangerous people our society has produced. I believe in Life Sentences for those convicted of the worst crimes. Meaning, you are in a prison, like Pelican Bay, under the supervision of prison guards for the rest of your life. You know you are going to die in prison. You are placed in solitary confinement, for your own good because your next door cell mate is a cannibal with swastikas tattooed on his face and hates you... well, just because he hates you. You don't want to play sport in there because the only game they like to play is 'Prison Hand Ball'... and i don't think you'll like it very much. You are not trusted with eating utincils, so you enjoy your nightly meal... Oh, look... Prison Loaf... again. Just like last night and the night before and the night before that, et al. That is your life... Prison Loaf and your neighbor constantly telling you he wants to kill you because he hates you (probably because you won't play Prison Hand Ball with him)... until you grow old and die. ... I don't place the kid that gets popped for selling pot in Alabama with the guy who kills the pizza delivery guy and stores him in his freezer in the same boat. They are 2 completly different people who deserve two completely different levels of punishment. I see that... as justice.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The problem I have with this is the fact that... it's not enough we tender mercy and imprison our most heinous murderers... we then offer them a quality of life and work to release them. They eat better than our minimum wage families, receive great health care, read books, play sports, work out, get married, play video games and all sorts of other fun activities until they finally get paroled or are released for a second chance at life... while their victims lie sewn back together in their coffins.
And I'm supposed to think this is justice?
... I believe the 20 year old that is serving 25 years because back in the 'Just Say No' years he was caught drivng a Buick Regal with 2 pound of pot in his trunk should be rehabilitated (especially now, because pot is legal) and set free after doing his time... but, NOT the person who shoots a woman in the eye and buries her in the marshlands while she is still taking breaths. I would rather see the latter spend the rest of his life in a maximum security facility... where we keep only the most dangerous people our society has produced. I believe in Life Sentences for those convicted of the worst crimes. Meaning, you are in a prison, like Pelican Bay, under the supervision of prison guards for the rest of your life. You know you are going to die in prison. You are placed in solitary confinement, for your own good because your next door cell mate is a cannibal with swastikas tattooed on his face and hates you... well, just because he hates you. You don't want to play sport in there because the only game they like to play is 'Prison Hand Ball'... and i don't think you'll like it very much. You are not trusted with eating utincils, so you enjoy your nightly meal... Oh, look... Prison Loaf... again. Just like last night and the night before and the night before that, et al. That is your life... Prison Loaf and your neighbor constantly telling you he wants to kill you because he hates you (probably because you won't play Prison Hand Ball with him)... until you grow old and die. ... I don't place the kid that gets popped for selling pot in Alabama with the guy who kills the pizza delivery guy and stores him in his freezer in the same boat. They are 2 completly different people who deserve two completely different levels of punishment. I see that... as justice.
I agree that a petty criminal should not be spending time alongside a murderer. I also agree that a petty criminal's time should be much more comfortable and purposeful than a murderer's.
By the way... thanks for the creative ways you express yourself.
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
...
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
I could live with this... and 'life in prison' meant 'life in prison'.
A prison doesn't have to have walls and iron bars on the windows. Id like to see them get creative. If these people are locked up for life then there is no need in rehabilitating them. Have them dig for gold with a spoon to ease the deficit. Till and plant crops by hand for food for those in need. Pick up garbage, Build parks or stamp plates, build furniture for the public schools. Sweat shop type environments.
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
... To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
... It depends on the prison. If you have been embezzling funds from the bank you work at... you are not going to be sent to the same place where street gang assassins are kept. I don't know about everyone else, but, I am talking about the worst criminals. Places like Pelican Bay or San Quentin's solitary units are NOT places you want those inmate to have access to the heavy tools required to do hard labor. They are in those places because they can make a stabbing weapon from a toothbrush and know where your kidneys so they can punch 5 or 6 holes in them. ... As for the 22 year old who sold some weed to an undercover cop in Little Rock, AR... I don't think he deserves laboring away in a chain gang. If he knowingly broke Arkansas law, take away his freedom for a while and make him understand that he has to do what he is told... including when he can eat and when he has to go to sleep. But, not for the rest of his life.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
... To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
... It depends on the prison. If you have been embezzling funds from the bank you work at... you are not going to be sent to the same place where street gang assassins are kept. I don't know about everyone else, but, I am talking about the worst criminals. Places like Pelican Bay or San Quentin's solitary units are NOT places you want those inmate to have access to the heavy tools required to do hard labor. They are in those places because they can make a stabbing weapon from a toothbrush and know where your kidneys so they can punch 5 or 6 holes in them. ... As for the 22 year old who sold some weed to an undercover cop in Little Rock, AR... I don't think he deserves laboring away in a chain gang. If he knowingly broke Arkansas law, take away his freedom for a while and make him understand that he has to do what he is told... including when he can eat and when he has to go to sleep. But, not for the rest of his life.
I agree completely which is I why I stated those that were in prison for life don't need rehabilitation. Those are the criminals that I am talking about. The dope smokers should be set free nationwide, marijuana charges are a crock of shit.
Lets be honest, anyone in prison for more then a month could learn to make a shank out of anything, including a toothbrush.
Let me add... I am NOT trying to pursuade anyone to believe as I do. I am just expressing my personal viewpoint. I understand that others have varying viewpoint and respect those opinions, even though I may not agree with them. It is all in how we perceive things and I know that no one see the world from my viewpoint... from this side of my skin. And trust me... i completely understand both sides of the Death Penalty debate. Some of the people out there do things to other people... that I cannot come close to understanding. I just know that those people should be kept away from us... either by concertina wire topped walls or lethal injection. It's just that there are so many of us... and we all cannot agree on what is the best method.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Let me add... I am NOT trying to pursuade anyone to believe as I do. I am just expressing my personal viewpoint. I understand that others have varying viewpoint and respect those opinions, even though I may not agree with them. It is all in how we perceive things and I know that no one see the world from my viewpoint... from this side of my skin. And trust me... i completely understand both sides of the Death Penalty debate. Some of the people out there do things to other people... that I cannot come close to understanding. I just know that those people should be kept away from us... either by concertina wire topped walls or lethal injection. It's just that there are so many of us... and we all cannot agree on what is the best method.
I hope that everyone on here understands this. Close mindedness doesn't lead to learning or understanding.
PJ_Soul I agree murder is unexcusable but in this case and others like it I have zero sympathy and even less thought on the matter I don't care if he clenched his teeth till they shattered and begged for death, maybe they should go back to the gallos and rope.
Godfather.
Yes, fine. I also said that I don't have any sympathy. Sympathy or the feelings of the dead guy has nothing to do with it.
sorry it's a misunderstanding I didn't mean to emply that you did,this guys crime in my opinion begs for the death penelty,if he had not been caught I almost garentee he would do it again.
i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent
...
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us. ... That's all.
The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
with the apeales process and DNA evedience wrongfully convicted persons are being released all the time, it's not perfect but it is getting better.
Let me add... I am NOT trying to pursuade anyone to believe as I do. I am just expressing my personal viewpoint. I understand that others have varying viewpoint and respect those opinions, even though I may not agree with them. It is all in how we perceive things and I know that no one see the world from my viewpoint... from this side of my skin. And trust me... i completely understand both sides of the Death Penalty debate. Some of the people out there do things to other people... that I cannot come close to understanding. I just know that those people should be kept away from us... either by concertina wire topped walls or lethal injection. It's just that there are so many of us... and we all cannot agree on what is the best method.
100% agreed but around here it seems our opinions come with labels and names from fellow train members somtimes but at the end of the day it's all good.
Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...
So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.
Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".
Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.
I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.
We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.
Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...
So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.
Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".
Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.
I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.
We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.
It doesn't matter how many murderers are put to death in the U.S., I will always shake my head at comparisons with fundament Muslim countries. When women here are being buried to their waists and publicly stoned for the crime of adultery...ADULTERY...only then would the comparison be valid.
It is one thing to be disgusted by these crimes and to call for swift, violent justice. It is quite another when the system breaks down and allows it to happen. The system in Oklahoma broke down. As disgusting as the results were, that is what happened. Let us not pretend the reason this happened was because anyone wanted a violent, public execution. No matter how strong that sentiment might be it is not the designed result of the system we have in place.
Comments
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Something tells me that you don't know me at all, so don't presume how I'd feel if someone close to me was murdered. It's a stupid assumption anyway. Loads and loads of victims' family members have stated that the execution of the person who committed the crime did absolutely nothing for them or their recovery. Others have come out as strong opponents to the death penalty. Sorry, but you're the one who came off as high and mighty there with your assumptions.
I would NEVER support capital punishment. And FYI, I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death.
But the main point is that I wouldn't want to live under a government who murders people. Period. Luckily, I don't, and I'm glad.
I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me.
I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states.
...
I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should.
...
And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.
Hail, Hail!!!
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
When the justice system is 100% INFALLIBLE, then I might not mind so much. But of course, there is a never will be an infallible justice system. It is flawed and overtaxed and corrupt and always will be.
And that's a nice line about being like Jesus and less like Christians. No fucking doubt. I don't think that I could forgive someone like some are able to (I know that they are). But I am confident that I wouldn't lust for blood either. Violence begets violence - I don't want to be a part of that.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
When you use words like 'murder' and 'fucking primitive' and 'revenge' and 'embarrassment' and make a reference to being 'uncivilized' to support your position... you probably should have known there would be some form of a challenge to those statements and I offered one.
And loads and loads of victims' family members may have, to some degree, forgiven the murderer of their loved ones... but get serious... this is the exception and hardly the norm.
When you say I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death... isn't this slightly contradictory to some of the statements you have offered about having a revenge mentality?
By the way... you are one of the few Canadians I know who feel our weak penal system is anything to feel great about. We most certainly do not have things figured out by any stretch of the imagination. I could point to countless failings, but I'm pretty sure you know of several yourself.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
My point is... i do not believe our courts system is perfect. If it were, then guilty people would not be set free, either... would they? But, we know that happens from time to time... that's what matters... not a numeric value on a score sheet. I do believe that we have one of the best justice systems on the planet... but, it is just not served up as fair as it proclaims to be. Justice... she may be blind, but the people her serve her are not.
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us.
...
That's all.
Hail, Hail!!!
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
And I'm supposed to think this is justice?
I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.
Wind this thing up.
I believe the 20 year old that is serving 25 years because back in the 'Just Say No' years he was caught drivng a Buick Regal with 2 pound of pot in his trunk should be rehabilitated (especially now, because pot is legal) and set free after doing his time... but, NOT the person who shoots a woman in the eye and buries her in the marshlands while she is still taking breaths. I would rather see the latter spend the rest of his life in a maximum security facility... where we keep only the most dangerous people our society has produced.
I believe in Life Sentences for those convicted of the worst crimes. Meaning, you are in a prison, like Pelican Bay, under the supervision of prison guards for the rest of your life. You know you are going to die in prison. You are placed in solitary confinement, for your own good because your next door cell mate is a cannibal with swastikas tattooed on his face and hates you... well, just because he hates you. You don't want to play sport in there because the only game they like to play is 'Prison Hand Ball'... and i don't think you'll like it very much. You are not trusted with eating utincils, so you enjoy your nightly meal... Oh, look... Prison Loaf... again. Just like last night and the night before and the night before that, et al. That is your life... Prison Loaf and your neighbor constantly telling you he wants to kill you because he hates you (probably because you won't play Prison Hand Ball with him)... until you grow old and die.
...
I don't place the kid that gets popped for selling pot in Alabama with the guy who kills the pizza delivery guy and stores him in his freezer in the same boat. They are 2 completly different people who deserve two completely different levels of punishment.
I see that... as justice.
Hail, Hail!!!
By the way... thanks for the creative ways you express yourself.
Wind this thing up.
It depends on the prison. If you have been embezzling funds from the bank you work at... you are not going to be sent to the same place where street gang assassins are kept.
I don't know about everyone else, but, I am talking about the worst criminals. Places like Pelican Bay or San Quentin's solitary units are NOT places you want those inmate to have access to the heavy tools required to do hard labor. They are in those places because they can make a stabbing weapon from a toothbrush and know where your kidneys so they can punch 5 or 6 holes in them.
...
As for the 22 year old who sold some weed to an undercover cop in Little Rock, AR... I don't think he deserves laboring away in a chain gang. If he knowingly broke Arkansas law, take away his freedom for a while and make him understand that he has to do what he is told... including when he can eat and when he has to go to sleep. But, not for the rest of his life.
Hail, Hail!!!
Lets be honest, anyone in prison for more then a month could learn to make a shank out of anything, including a toothbrush.
Wind this thing up.
I am NOT trying to pursuade anyone to believe as I do. I am just expressing my personal viewpoint.
I understand that others have varying viewpoint and respect those opinions, even though I may not agree with them. It is all in how we perceive things and I know that no one see the world from my viewpoint... from this side of my skin.
And trust me... i completely understand both sides of the Death Penalty debate. Some of the people out there do things to other people... that I cannot come close to understanding. I just know that those people should be kept away from us... either by concertina wire topped walls or lethal injection. It's just that there are so many of us... and we all cannot agree on what is the best method.
Hail, Hail!!!
Wind this thing up.
Godfather.
with the apeales process and DNA evedience wrongfully convicted persons are being released all the time, it's not perfect but it is getting better.
Godfather.
100% agreed but around here it seems our opinions come with labels and names from fellow train members somtimes but at the end of the day it's all good.
Godfather.
Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".
Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.
I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.
We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.
It is one thing to be disgusted by these crimes and to call for swift, violent justice. It is quite another when the system breaks down and allows it to happen. The system in Oklahoma broke down. As disgusting as the results were, that is what happened. Let us not pretend the reason this happened was because anyone wanted a violent, public execution. No matter how strong that sentiment might be it is not the designed result of the system we have in place.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/Uma2yV9T/full/death-dealer-by-frank-frazetta.jpg
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce