...rr165892 i agree with your part of your last comment logic and i already kinda post that...its make no sense to say i m american band and boycott israel cos its bad..who wants israel stronge at middle east??who support and is number 1 ally with israel.??who selling them guns??.who want israel there as a step to middle east?..the answer is ..USA..so yeah if u start and say i boycott a country cos its the evil ans kill innocent people u cant just say i boycott israel and thats it...music fans..pj fan must not be panished for their goverment-country political shit.. and u cant boycott by not playing at a country and the same time u selling t-shirts and fanclub memberships to the people of that country
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
It would be awesome if they played for the fans in Israel.
Las Cruces, NM Pan Am Center September 14, 1995
Albuquerque, NM Tingley Coliseum July 7, 1998
New York City, NY MSG May 20, 2010
Eddie Vedder Solo Albuquerque, NM November 9, 2012
Wrigley Field July 19, 2013
LA Nov. 23: 24, 2013
Denver 10-22-14
Is there really a boycott by PJ or is that conjecture based on who we think are their "friends" and PJ's supposed level of agreement with them?
No boycott going on as far as I know, at least nothing official from the band, as for this discussion, its about one group wanting pj to play in Israel for its fans, and another side saying that they probably should not. (perform in Israel as a whole band)
It would be awesome !! I know mike has stated one if his favorite moments was playing at Solomons pool in Jerusalem when the band was backing Neil Young for his mirror ball tour. Politics aside, Israel is a beautiful country with one of the most interesting sights to see and some of the oldest structures left in the world and some incredible history. If anyone has a chance to visit Israel it really is like no place else in the world its so different. I highly recommend it. But the bottom line is Pearl Jam has many die hard fans in the country. The show would have so much energy from the fans. The band would really feed of the crowd, the fans would be so pumped to finally see the band they love. I'm sure the show would be epic!!! . I would love to be there
I hope they play Israel but let's be honest...playing in Israel these days requires courage. Eddie and the band are friends with and big fans of Roger Waters. If Pearl Jam chooses to play there they will be doing so in opposition to Roger Waters' boycott Israel movement. While I am not sure what Pearl Jam's politics are on this issue I am not convinced they are ready to jump in the middle of it and make opponents out of artists they respect.
Not sure if it's cool to quote myself but this thread is exactly why it "requires courage" to play in Israel. If Pearl Jam does not play Israel there will be some very unfortunate broken hearts but the issue will pretty much go away. If they DO play Israel people like Drowned Out and CM189191 will lose their collective minds and will attack the band like Scarlett Johansson was attacked after shooting a commercial for Sodastream. While most of the Pearl Jam fan base, including myself, thinks it should only be about the music to people of the BDS movement it can never be just about that. To Drowned Out even the act of setting foot in Israel will be seen as tacit support for the Israeli government and Pearl Jam will have to be seen as an enemy to be boycotted and vilified. No entry on this thread will convince him otherwise. Can you imagine that? Pearl Jam labelled as an enemy? Unfortunately that is the world we live in today. The BDS movement is anti-speech, anti-choice and instead of trying to heal a troubled region it seeks to silence those who simply want to spread a message of love and joy. So yes it will require courage to play Israel and I for one hope Pearl Jam shows that courage and performs for all our brothers and sisters in Israel that loves this band as much of the rest of us.
Stupid human beings,... Once you hold the hand of love,.. it's all surmountable.
I think you can quote yourself when your take is on the money.Good job BS.
Any time we can also get a paragraph that includes both a Pearl Jam and Scarlett Johansson Im on board.Im pretty sure My nirvana zen happy place includes both.:))
I'd have no problem with Pj playing Israel just so long as there was a seperate show in Palestine also. It has been done I'm told. But usually the Israeli government don't allow bands stage concerts in Palestine. That tells me all I need to know at this point.
Also I wish people would drop that nonsense. Being against Israels policies of torture, internment and random bombings as well as illegal landgrabs, doesn't make anyone anti-semtic. I'm against bombs dropping on anyone. Wherever it is. It doesn't make me anti-whatever country/people are doing it.
" You can't equivocate Texas gun policy with Israel's growing settlements, borders and occupancy. The death, destruction, and oppression are not even close to comparable."
You Palestinian supportes are a angry bunch.Why is everything gotta be turned into politics with you folks.I understand why there is so much unrest over there after reading all these angry posts.Not just on this thread but there is another supporter of your issue on another thread. Cm you blame the people for electing there government,so it's the people who are the problem.Thats like saying Its my fault Obama care has problems ,or Its the people's fault that we are still in Afghanastan ,trust me no one asked me.and It's not my fault on either. You guys also don't seem to Confront the terrorist actions of the people you support against innocent people.I know, I know your first thought is turn it around and blame big bad Israel the infidel.But answer for your sides own misgivings and condem violence against non military targets.You have to look in the mirror first ,come clean with that,then you can have a conversation about a solution to your "oppression". Do you think killing innocent non political non government targets is justified?I am asking you folks not the Israeli supporters. Also If You hate all that is Israeli and want to Boycott by association then follow the logic.PJ is an American band,USA is a huge friend of Israel in all aspects.So we as a country do support the country of Israel.So technically you should not support Pearl Jam because they are American.Do you pick and choose your stance.A little hypocritical if you ask me.
I did not realize we were talking about me and my hypocrisy. I thought we were talking about Pearl Jam playing in Israel. But ok, here we go.
Yes, I'm an American. I vote with my voice, my dollars and at the ballot box. I work with a company that supports over 20,000 non-profit companies in all 50 states. I prefer to support my local farmer, rather than Monsanto or ConAgra. I avoid visiting states like Florida, Texas and Arizona like the plague. And I believe the Affordable Care Act is a good thing.
Unfortunately, as a productive member of society, I don't get the option whether or not to pay taxes. Ultimately, I don't get to decide where those taxes go. But to suggest that it's un-American or that I hate Israel because I don't support their policies is beyond reproach. The Palestinians don't get a free pass here by any means. But I don't see our American dollars going to support their cause. Who are we to choose sides? Determine who is right? I thought those borders were already agreed to - but from where I sit, neither side seems to think the rules apply to them. And we're fucking profiteering off it.
We've seen what a disaster the War on Drugs has become, and finally started to turn the ship there. I've visited to Vietnam, and I've seen what the war on Communism has done to 2nd & 3rd generations as a result of Agent Orange. If you think peace is suddenly going to blossom in the middle east by continuing to support their policies with our tax dollars, our jet airplanes, and yes, our bands performing concerts there - you're sorely mistaken.
It's been proven time and time again that investment in education and bolstering our middle class is what makes for a stable society. Perhaps if Google & IBM invested a little more interest in setting up R&D shops in Iran, you think we'd be a little more friendly towards each other? But instead we're stuck in this goddamned War on Terror with no end in sight. Billions (Trillions) of dollars wasted on guns, bombs, planes, TSA, and body scanners. While I head to the airport every week and watch grandparents, children and war veterans have their constitutional rights routinely violated and wonder who's really winning the war on terror.
So you go ahead an buy into the war-mongering, saber-rattling lies you've been sold. That 'we need to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here'. Instead, you go ahead an listen to politicians who exploit Israel for electoral votes in NY & FL, so they can line their coffers with dollars from Raytheon.
So if Israel wants to protect their borders, by all means, knock yourselves out. I'm tired of subsidizing it. Makes me sick to listen to politicians talk about cutting Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, SSA, SNAP and other social safety nets. But the Pentagon's budget is never on the table for negotiation, in spite of the fact that the US defense spend is larger than the next 10 countries combined. When are we going to get over the fact that there is no such thing as American exceptionalism, we are not the world's police. There are other organizations set up for that now. Can we take a step back and focus on ourselves before we completely drive our economy into the tank? But hey - at least Israel has some decent R&D firms for the Rx companies, too bad the cost of grandmas meds will drive her into bankruptcy.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
buddy,i quote that part only to say simply that fans ,people love music ,cant be panished for their goverment-country mistakes for sure,was not to my intentions to cut the whole meaning of your words pj israelian fans has a huge fan base and travel all over the planet to see the band and deserve to see the band in their country.. Greece dont start or be a part at wars but that doesnt mean i deserve more to see the band than a fan from israel.. and my comment has to do with the fact that for sure israelian goverment do shitty staff,they kick out palestinians from their own land ,we all know the history,but Israel is NOT the only evil on the planet..their allies,and countries they support them 60 years now,and we all know who are they have the same share of responsibility.. so pj boycott ONLY israel and NOT all the countries support them,doing business with them,selling guns ,the guns killing palestinians,sorry but is not make sense and its somewhat hypocritical.. and again,officially the band is NOT boycott Israel..never said that,and i saw with my eyes,Jeff wearing on stage a shirt "pj plays in Israel-shirt" got from a fan from the rail logistics is the problem..i think is the same pro why the band dont play in countries like Indonesia or South Africa (as for the last one,SA,i know for sure its in their radar to play there.) would be great to have peace all over the planet,and we enjoy the music,i know alot about the area,Greece is very close,we have many palestinians coming to my country,but music is to connect people,and pj if they can play to israel,they should do it.. and im pretty sure,if they play there and eddie on stay wishes peace to palestinians and israelians he will get a huge wellcome from israelian fans
I've already stated why I feel this is about more than a rock show for israeli fans. And that I don't think anyone 'deserves' a show. I'll state again - Israelis have the option to travel to see shows in other countries. I'm sure you read vivapalestina's post in the Stones in Israel thread. Palestinians live under military law and have to navigate a maze of bullshit to get from one neighbourhood or city to the next, let alone obtain travel documents and permissions for a vacation. Israel oppresses and fucks with people trying to leave for education, medical treatments, and other more important things. Hell, you probably saw the news today that the winner of Arab Idol, a Palestinian, who was invited to sing at the FIFA World Cup, had his invitation withdrawn because of pressure from an 'unnamed group'...Shakira backed out from her slot in protest. This is a perfect example of the intentional, systemic stratagen meant to break the will of the Palestinians. You may see some Palestinians in your country, but they're the lucky ones. And I'm obviously aware that there are a lot of other countries committing evil acts. I'm aware that the US is considered the biggest threat to peace throughout the world (with Israel voted #1 by middle eastern countries, of course). And yes, boycotts are not an easy accomplishment. In a sense it is like any other kind of consumer activism - you learn as yoeu go. The world is interconnected enough now that if you start playing the six degrees of occupation game, you would never be able to boycott anything. Why should we just give up one of the only meaningful activist tools left to us in a democratic society because the economy has been consolidated into megacorps? Voting with our dollars is more powerful than any other peaceful form of protest. As chomsky said: 'particular implementations have to be judged on their own merits. Here there is room for legitamite disagreement"...We disagree on the importance of a PJ show for Israelis vs the importance of raising awareness and expressing solidarity with the Palestinians. Also, we're talking about American bands receiving apartheid money to play in Israel. An American band boycotting their own country is a completely different scenario. And for the record, I do support boycotts of companies in the west who play a direct role in the occupation. I'll say it again, I have no doubt in my mind that Israel has some peaceful fans who have no connection to, or support for their government, and I feel for them.
You and others in this thread keep trying to tell me "it's about the music, so stop politicizing the issue"...then you follow with more political commentary countering my points. Trying to get the last word and shut me up. Sorry, not happening.
as for this my friend,ill answer with that (no matter if i have different opinion at thios matter cos,i really want music to win politics to this type of matters) "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it"
Such spirited debate is great.Drowned out, if you are living in a situation that is less then desirable and life in any way shape or form is unfair to you,I hope you find some light to shine upon you and your circumstances improve
.I also hope that the Thousands of good loyal PJ fans in that area of the globe have a chance to experience one of the great Rock bands in history just once live.Dark,light,Jew,Muslim ,Christian ,Israeli ,Palestinian all can be touched by the music.It does not discriminate. So why stop a show that can bring joy to all.Maybe just maybe a Bad ass PJ show in Israel could build a bridge or two toward something greater.Who knows maybe you Drowned out could be riding the rail at the show.Elbow to Elbow with others you don't agree with politically but when you have to take a piss,or grab a beer they hold your spot and look out for you like so many of us in the pit or crowd have done before.You will meet some great folks who for a few hours have just one thing in common and believe me it is glorious to bask in the energy of the crowd and loose yourself in the evening.You got some great beaches over there,how does an opener of Oceans in the moonlight with your toes in the sand sound with a cold fuckin beer in hand. Join your fellow fans,don't knock em
Again, missing the point of the Palestinians restricted movement. Music does not discrimminate but the state of Israel does. We can pretend all we want that all Palestinians would be free to attend, and imagine a big woodstock on the shores of the mediterranean, but fact of the matter is, many Palestinians never get to see those beaches.
whoa whoa....where was this comment on page one and two when I was called a douche and repeatedly told to go fuck myself? I took the high road there and you accuse us of being the 'angry bunch'? funny.
I hope they play Israel but let's be honest...playing in Israel these days requires courage. Eddie and the band are friends with and big fans of Roger Waters. If Pearl Jam chooses to play there they will be doing so in opposition to Roger Waters' boycott Israel movement. While I am not sure what Pearl Jam's politics are on this issue I am not convinced they are ready to jump in the middle of it and make opponents out of artists they respect.
Not sure if it's cool to quote myself but this thread is exactly why it "requires courage" to play in Israel. If Pearl Jam does not play Israel there will be some very unfortunate broken hearts but the issue will pretty much go away. If they DO play Israel people like Drowned Out and CM189191 will lose their collective minds
Lose our collective minds, eh? Heres what I said just one page back in this very thread: "If pj announces a show in Israel, I will wait to see if there are any conditions, official statements, or measures taken to balance their position. If in the end, supporting pj creates a moral dilemma for me, I would stop supporting them, and would probably have a hard time even listening to their music" Really losing my mind there....hyperbole and misrepresentation are a disservice to your credibility in this discussion, and your cause. I even left room for scenarios under which I'd support a show. As eldarion mentioned, they could book a show in the West Bank as well. It probably wouldn't happen because Israel wouldn't allow it, but that would give them the opportunity to speak about it and raise awareness. Or they could arrive for their show via a boat full of aid, on the shores of blockaded Gaza. I kid...I wouldn't want to see them murdered by the IDF like 9 others who tried to do the same a couple years back.
and will attack the band like Scarlett Johansson was attacked after shooting a commercial for Sodastream.
Attack? Again with the melodrama. Criticism is an attack? lolz. SJ was an oxfam ambassador, a humanitarian organization that supports green-line bds. She signed a contract to endorse a company based in an Israeli settlement (ie: on stolen Palestinian land). When she was told this, she issued a statement that could have been written by Abe fucking Foxman, and ended her relationship with Oxfam. She SHOULD be criticized. But also thanked for the awareness brought to the bds movement. .
While most of the Pearl Jam fan base, including myself, thinks it should only be about the music to people of the BDS movement it can never be just about that. To Drowned Out even the act of setting foot in Israel will be seen as tacit support for the Israeli government and Pearl Jam will have to be seen as an enemy to be boycotted and vilified. No entry on this thread will convince him otherwise. Can you imagine that? Pearl Jam labelled as an enemy? Unfortunately that is the world we live in today. The BDS movement is anti-speech, anti-choice and instead of trying to heal a troubled region it seeks to silence those who simply want to spread a message of love and joy. So yes it will require courage to play Israel and I for one hope Pearl Jam shows that courage and performs for all our brothers and sisters in Israel that loves this band as much of the rest of us.
Stupid human beings,... Once you hold the hand of love,.. it's all surmountable.
Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about labelling PJ as an enemy. But way to try to sway favour with the PJ community. unreal. I also never said anything about 'settin foot in israel' being seen as 'tacit support for the Israeli government'. I would love for the band to visit there, not to perform, but on a fact finding mission or as activists. I would love to do so myself. Why make shit up? But we know it doesn't always go so well for tourists who even speak against Israel....check out Noam Chomsky's attempt to visit last year (another bds supporter PJ openly admire). entry denied. Explain to me, please, how a boycott is anti-free speech and anti-choice? It is the epitome of both in a democratic society. Are you aware that there are laws in the US and Canada seeking to deny funding to Universities involved in boycotting Israel, and others aimed at punishing supporters of bds? Should we sit back and let another country influence our laws, free speech, and institutions? Fuck no.
I have a question for the PJ Play Israel organizers.... Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
Good Morning all ! CM-lots of stuff in there.Some I can't argue with and may even agree with on some level,But your first big issue is closing your mind to Florida.You missing out on a special way of life.Texas and Zona are quite nice also.Dont be afraid of the sun.Its healthy for you.I assume you are in the upper midwest(Illinios,Wis,Mn)We here in the sunbelt just choose to live in a state that skips the shitty seasons.It may open your mind!On airport security,don't you think some of your Palestinian friends have contributed to your removal of belt and shoes????????? Come on.
Drowned-you seem to be a less jacked up on this issue than Viva(who always has a negative spin).But please enlighten me on 1 thing that none of you will answer.I am an American,I have never been to Israel,though some day I want to visit Tel Aviv.Why every time I ask about the Terrorist activities of the Palestinian side I get no answer.You skip right over it Im willing to hear your side of things but please explain the killing of non military targets by Terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and other groups affiliated to your cause.I don't want the Israel spin because I'm not talking about military only issue.There is a lot hate and violence against westerners,Jews and others who have nothing to do with your border issue.Dont you think more people will listen and side with your cause if some factions/elements of Palestinians and their supporters Quit Killing and BLOWING SHIT UP.At least comment on what I keep asking.Please.Address the terrorism!!
Explain to me, please, how a boycott is anti-free speech and anti-choice?
In 2003 the Dixie Chicks spoke out against the Iraq War and immediately a radio boycott was declared against them. Pearl Jam along with Bruce Springsteen and many others spoke out against that boycott and saw it is being anti-speech.
You have made it very clear that if Pearl Jam chooses to play Israel they must do so under your terms ("certain scenarios") otherwise they will be considered supporters of apartheid and will be boycotted in all forms. This is your right but by most people's accounts, including Pearl Jam's, this is a threat to stay silent.
Soda stream is an Israeli company that is based in the west bank. The Palestinians who ate employed there get paid double the normal wages. They ate given excellent health coverage, and the they say they love it. This is s good thing. This is nit something to boycott at all this us progress.
I love the portrayal of Israel not allowing a concert in the West Bank. If PJ wanted to play there, they could play there. The real question is… would it be worth them playing in either location?
And lastly, I do find it funny when the most vocal anti-Israel people on this board have never set foot in either Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. Byrnzie and DrownedOut are 2…
Real Life experiences will always bring perspective. I suggest you go take a look with your own eyes! You are entitled to your opinions, but you are no less a propagandist than the other side!
My biggest gripe against Palestinian supporters is they take no responsibility in their previous actions and act like just out of the blue Israel took their land. Look how the situation got here. 1948 Arab-Israelie War and 1967 6 day war. Neither of those two were was Israel the antagonist. They kicked some ass and took some land. That's kind of how things go. You can't cry about it being unfair. It's like the bully that thought he was just going to roll over some little kid got his ass kicked, and is still crying about the scar on his face many years later. And then people want to act like Palastinians are just the most peaceful bunch of people. They never shoot rockets, or use bombs. They are just 100% victims. I don't even take sides in the matter. That area has always been in conflict, and I honestly don't think giving up land will resolve it. There will always be some issue. Anyways, it would be cool if they played there. I would never be opposed to where a band played. I'd say that's pretty cool if they played in Iran, or North Korea. It comes down to a band playing for Fans. Not a flag, but fans. People no different between you and I when we hear a PJ song.
Maybe because since day one of its declaration as a country it's friendly neighbors have declined to recognize it and has called for its destruction? Has started wars against it? Maybe the land they took offer a great strategic advantage in further protecting themselves? You can look at it and talk about how unjust it is, but if you look at it from the other side I can't fault them for their actions.
So Israel is building more settlements and taking more land because they want to "further protect themselves". Well, that's fresh.
The land grabs and building of settlements is a major issue and the concept that they (Israel) are taking more land (source of much of the conflict) to further protect themselves? Come on now, One would think that having more area to protect is more difficult, so it is incredibly silly for Israel to be doing that for that reason, so then what, They are taking more land because countries decline to "recognize it"? So basically what Israel is doing is grabbing more land, and yelling "recognize me!"..."why won't you recognize me!"
I'm not sure where else to go with that, its just really funny, and kinda sad. -
So 'why' is Israel 'really' taking more land? What is the real agenda? -
(and btw, Israel was doing false flag operations years before 6 day war, Israel has always been the aggressor. Taking over someones land, then when faced with resistance, call 'foul', I'm sorry, that's just all types of wrong)
Israel (Israeli agents) planting bombs around civilian targets and installations owned by the US and Britain, I refer everyone to The Lavon Affair.
Why does it seem some want it ignore history and make up their own convenient history? Again, just to point out, you still completely point the finger at Israel and take no responsibility of the Palastinians and how this situation got here. I'm just going to nod my head, say you are 100% correct. Your ability to bring up the "real" truth has completely made me pick a side. Palistine! Palistine!... Pearl Jam shouldn't play in Israel... They should play in Palistine! Those poor Palistenians that ain't never done nothing wrong. This is an outrage! I'm calling it, kangaroo court! Malarkey, enough of this tom foolery! Thanks, your constant strong points (many of which are highly questionable, and seem to ignore any historical truth) have persuaded me. Thanks!
Comments
and u cant boycott by not playing at a country and the same time u selling t-shirts and fanclub memberships to the people of that country
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Albuquerque, NM Tingley Coliseum July 7, 1998
New York City, NY MSG May 20, 2010
Eddie Vedder Solo Albuquerque, NM November 9, 2012
Wrigley Field July 19, 2013
LA Nov. 23: 24, 2013
Denver 10-22-14
Click to visit the Arizona PJ Fans Page
PJ
PHX 98|ABQ, PHX, Seattle 00|PHX 03|Arras 10|PJ20 1&2 11|Missoula 12|PHX, SD, LA 1&2 13|Denver 14|Telluride 16
EV
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TOTD
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But the bottom line is Pearl Jam has many die hard fans in the country. The show would have so much energy from the fans. The band would really feed of the crowd, the fans would be so pumped to finally see the band they love. I'm sure the show would be epic!!!
. I would love to be there
Stupid human beings,...
Once you hold the hand of love,.. it's all surmountable.
Any time we can also get a paragraph that includes both a Pearl Jam and Scarlett Johansson Im on board.Im pretty sure My nirvana zen happy place includes both.:))
It has been done I'm told. But usually the Israeli government don't allow bands stage concerts in Palestine.
That tells me all I need to know at this point.
Yes, I'm an American. I vote with my voice, my dollars and at the ballot box. I work with a company that supports over 20,000 non-profit companies in all 50 states. I prefer to support my local farmer, rather than Monsanto or ConAgra. I avoid visiting states like Florida, Texas and Arizona like the plague. And I believe the Affordable Care Act is a good thing.
Unfortunately, as a productive member of society, I don't get the option whether or not to pay taxes. Ultimately, I don't get to decide where those taxes go. But to suggest that it's un-American or that I hate Israel because I don't support their policies is beyond reproach. The Palestinians don't get a free pass here by any means. But I don't see our American dollars going to support their cause. Who are we to choose sides? Determine who is right? I thought those borders were already agreed to - but from where I sit, neither side seems to think the rules apply to them. And we're fucking profiteering off it.
We've seen what a disaster the War on Drugs has become, and finally started to turn the ship there. I've visited to Vietnam, and I've seen what the war on Communism has done to 2nd & 3rd generations as a result of Agent Orange. If you think peace is suddenly going to blossom in the middle east by continuing to support their policies with our tax dollars, our jet airplanes, and yes, our bands performing concerts there - you're sorely mistaken.
It's been proven time and time again that investment in education and bolstering our middle class is what makes for a stable society. Perhaps if Google & IBM invested a little more interest in setting up R&D shops in Iran, you think we'd be a little more friendly towards each other? But instead we're stuck in this goddamned War on Terror with no end in sight. Billions (Trillions) of dollars wasted on guns, bombs, planes, TSA, and body scanners. While I head to the airport every week and watch grandparents, children and war veterans have their constitutional rights routinely violated and wonder who's really winning the war on terror.
So you go ahead an buy into the war-mongering, saber-rattling lies you've been sold. That 'we need to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here'. Instead, you go ahead an listen to politicians who exploit Israel for electoral votes in NY & FL, so they can line their coffers with dollars from Raytheon.
So if Israel wants to protect their borders, by all means, knock yourselves out. I'm tired of subsidizing it. Makes me sick to listen to politicians talk about cutting Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, SSA, SNAP and other social safety nets. But the Pentagon's budget is never on the table for negotiation, in spite of the fact that the US defense spend is larger than the next 10 countries combined. When are we going to get over the fact that there is no such thing as American exceptionalism, we are not the world's police. There are other organizations set up for that now. Can we take a step back and focus on ourselves before we completely drive our economy into the tank? But hey - at least Israel has some decent R&D firms for the Rx companies, too bad the cost of grandmas meds will drive her into bankruptcy.
And I'm obviously aware that there are a lot of other countries committing evil acts. I'm aware that the US is considered the biggest threat to peace throughout the world (with Israel voted #1 by middle eastern countries, of course). And yes, boycotts are not an easy accomplishment. In a sense it is like any other kind of consumer activism - you learn as yoeu go. The world is interconnected enough now that if you start playing the six degrees of occupation game, you would never be able to boycott anything. Why should we just give up one of the only meaningful activist tools left to us in a democratic society because the economy has been consolidated into megacorps? Voting with our dollars is more powerful than any other peaceful form of protest. As chomsky said: 'particular implementations have to be judged on their own merits. Here there is room for legitamite disagreement"...We disagree on the importance of a PJ show for Israelis vs the importance of raising awareness and expressing solidarity with the Palestinians.
Also, we're talking about American bands receiving apartheid money to play in Israel. An American band boycotting their own country is a completely different scenario. And for the record, I do support boycotts of companies in the west who play a direct role in the occupation.
I'll say it again, I have no doubt in my mind that Israel has some peaceful fans who have no connection to, or support for their government, and I feel for them. thanks Dimi, that made me smile
.
. Lose our collective minds, eh? Heres what I said just one page back in this very thread:
"If pj announces a show in Israel, I will wait to see if there are any conditions, official statements, or measures taken to balance their position. If in the end, supporting pj creates a moral dilemma for me, I would stop supporting them, and would probably have a hard time even listening to their music"
Really losing my mind there....hyperbole and misrepresentation are a disservice to your credibility in this discussion, and your cause. I even left room for scenarios under which I'd support a show. As eldarion mentioned, they could book a show in the West Bank as well. It probably wouldn't happen because Israel wouldn't allow it, but that would give them the opportunity to speak about it and raise awareness. Or they could arrive for their show via a boat full of aid, on the shores of blockaded Gaza. I kid...I wouldn't want to see them murdered by the IDF like 9 others who tried to do the same a couple years back.
. Attack? Again with the melodrama. Criticism is an attack? lolz. SJ was an oxfam ambassador, a humanitarian organization that supports green-line bds. She signed a contract to endorse a company based in an Israeli settlement (ie: on stolen Palestinian land). When she was told this, she issued a statement that could have been written by Abe fucking Foxman, and ended her relationship with Oxfam. She SHOULD be criticized. But also thanked for the awareness brought to the bds movement.
. Again, stop putting words in my mouth.
I never said anything about labelling PJ as an enemy. But way to try to sway favour with the PJ community. unreal.
I also never said anything about 'settin foot in israel' being seen as 'tacit support for the Israeli government'. I would love for the band to visit there, not to perform, but on a fact finding mission or as activists. I would love to do so myself. Why make shit up? But we know it doesn't always go so well for tourists who even speak against Israel....check out Noam Chomsky's attempt to visit last year (another bds supporter PJ openly admire). entry denied.
Explain to me, please, how a boycott is anti-free speech and anti-choice? It is the epitome of both in a democratic society. Are you aware that there are laws in the US and Canada seeking to deny funding to Universities involved in boycotting Israel, and others aimed at punishing supporters of bds? Should we sit back and let another country influence our laws, free speech, and institutions? Fuck no.
Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
CM-lots of stuff in there.Some I can't argue with and may even agree with on some level,But your first big issue is closing your mind to Florida.You missing out on a special way of life.Texas and Zona are quite nice also.Dont be afraid of the sun.Its healthy for you.I assume you are in the upper midwest(Illinios,Wis,Mn)We here in the sunbelt just choose to live in a state that skips the shitty seasons.It may open your mind!On airport security,don't you think some of your Palestinian friends have contributed to your removal of belt and shoes????????? Come on.
Drowned-you seem to be a less jacked up on this issue than Viva(who always has a negative spin).But please enlighten me on 1 thing that none of you will answer.I am an American,I have never been to Israel,though some day I want to visit Tel Aviv.Why every time I ask about the Terrorist activities of the Palestinian side I get no answer.You skip right over it Im willing to hear your side of things but please explain the killing of non military targets by Terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and other groups affiliated to your cause.I don't want the Israel spin because I'm not talking about military only issue.There is a lot hate and violence against westerners,Jews and others who have nothing to do with your border issue.Dont you think more people will listen and side with your cause if some factions/elements of Palestinians and their supporters Quit Killing and BLOWING SHIT UP.At least comment on what I keep asking.Please.Address the terrorism!!
You have made it very clear that if Pearl Jam chooses to play Israel they must do so under your terms ("certain scenarios") otherwise they will be considered supporters of apartheid and will be boycotted in all forms. This is your right but by most people's accounts, including Pearl Jam's, this is a threat to stay silent.
How dare anyone tell them where they should spread their music and art?
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
Real Life experiences will always bring perspective. I suggest you go take a look with your own eyes! You are entitled to your opinions, but you are no less a propagandist than the other side!
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
The land grabs and building of settlements is a major issue and the concept that they (Israel) are taking more land (source of much of the conflict) to further protect themselves? Come on now, One would think that having more area to protect is more difficult, so it is incredibly silly for Israel to be doing that for that reason, so then what, They are taking more land because countries decline to "recognize it"? So basically what Israel is doing is grabbing more land, and yelling "recognize me!"..."why won't you recognize me!"
I'm not sure where else to go with that, its just really funny, and kinda sad.
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So 'why' is Israel 'really' taking more land? What is the real agenda?
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(and btw, Israel was doing false flag operations years before 6 day war, Israel has always been the aggressor. Taking over someones land, then when faced with resistance, call 'foul', I'm sorry, that's just all types of wrong)
Israel (Israeli agents) planting bombs around civilian targets and installations owned by the US and Britain, I refer everyone to The Lavon Affair.
endusmilitarism.org/lavon_affair_july_1954.html