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Global warming

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    eddiec, "What is this place".... LOL!
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 48,085

    Smellyman said:

    It's a stupid debate by this point. You'd have to be a complete and utter moron to not believe that trashing the oceans, levelling forests and pumping billions of tons of pollution into the air has no effect on climate.....not to mention just dangerous for life to exist.

    If they refuse to acknowledge it by now it is simply wilful ignorance for some reason.

    I admire those who keep debating the deniers. I have no stomach or patience for ignorance and stupidity any more.

    I refuse to debate deniers anymore. The proof is there, the glaciers are nearly gone, the polar caps are warming (which was the point of my article), the coasts are rising (very slowly, but still), droughts are worsening.
    My own father is a climate change denier (so embarrassing), and we have had so many arguments about it, until finally we just had to decide that it was a topic we couldn't talk to each other about anymore. There is no convincing him, and it was ruining our relationship, lol. So he's just going to keep going along in all his ignorant glory - I guess that's how he likes it! (this is a man with a Masters degree in Geography for god's sake.... I think he has to just be in 100% denial mode).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    brianlux said:

    You know, these days anyone claiming or alluding to being a global warming denier is probably just saying stuff to a) attempt to be funny or b) contentious shit stirrers or c) sincerely confused by misleading information or d) really deep into some strange form of denial (in which case I really do give my sincerest empathy). I find this interesting.

    It's true, bsl12's post does refer to a specific place and global warming is not about specific places but the whole. However,I think her point was missed and that is that this is yet another example of an extreme weather event. If we stand back from these individual scenarios, the picture comes into focus rather than remain just a blur.

    Anyway, just in case there really are some who are still sincerely on the fence out there and really do care, and who are confused by all the various reports on local trends, here's an excellent article that will help put all that into focus. Notice there are some areas that are abnormally cold but then step back (so to speak) and look at the big picture:

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2015/03/a-hypothesis-about-the-cold-winter-in-eastern-north-america/

    I have read many of the articles you've linked in these various climate threads. But this one seems to say the most and still says absolutely nothing. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand it, but I can't say I know any more an out climate change after reading it. I really don't know what it's supposed to say.

    The author is apparently trying to figure out why certain parts of the northern hemisphere had such cold temperatures all while the rest of the planet is warming up?
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    Those pictures of Mexico city and Haiti are crazy.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292

    brianlux said:

    You know, these days anyone claiming or alluding to being a global warming denier is probably just saying stuff to a) attempt to be funny or b) contentious shit stirrers or c) sincerely confused by misleading information or d) really deep into some strange form of denial (in which case I really do give my sincerest empathy). I find this interesting.

    It's true, bsl12's post does refer to a specific place and global warming is not about specific places but the whole. However,I think her point was missed and that is that this is yet another example of an extreme weather event. If we stand back from these individual scenarios, the picture comes into focus rather than remain just a blur.

    Anyway, just in case there really are some who are still sincerely on the fence out there and really do care, and who are confused by all the various reports on local trends, here's an excellent article that will help put all that into focus. Notice there are some areas that are abnormally cold but then step back (so to speak) and look at the big picture:

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2015/03/a-hypothesis-about-the-cold-winter-in-eastern-north-america/

    I have read many of the articles you've linked in these various climate threads. But this one seems to say the most and still says absolutely nothing. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand it, but I can't say I know any more an out climate change after reading it. I really don't know what it's supposed to say.

    The author is apparently trying to figure out why certain parts of the northern hemisphere had such cold temperatures all while the rest of the planet is warming up?
    I read another article that says much the same- I'll try to find it. Basically it says there are reasons ties to ocean currents for the fact that even with global warming some places are seeing record cold.

    What this all goes to addresses something BS alluded to (but perhaps for different reasons) which is that we cannot make any conclusions about global climate based on local weather.

    In any case, the argument against global warming is basically dead in the water and it's time to start taking some action- of which there is a plethora of choices!

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,060
    Smellyman said:

    It's a stupid debate by this point. You'd have to be a complete and utter moron to not believe that trashing the oceans, levelling forests and pumping billions of tons of pollution into the air has no effect on climate.....not to mention just dangerous for life to exist.

    If they refuse to acknowledge it by now it is simply wilful ignorance for some reason.

    I admire those who keep debating the deniers. I have no stomach or patience for ignorance and stupidity any more.

    This is a dodge because I am not claiming our actions don't affect climate. Of course they do. The question is to what degree? You call me a denier but it is the opposite. I am following the science while you have become a believer.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    BS44325 said:

    Smellyman said:

    It's a stupid debate by this point. You'd have to be a complete and utter moron to not believe that trashing the oceans, levelling forests and pumping billions of tons of pollution into the air has no effect on climate.....not to mention just dangerous for life to exist.

    If they refuse to acknowledge it by now it is simply wilful ignorance for some reason.

    I admire those who keep debating the deniers. I have no stomach or patience for ignorance and stupidity any more.

    This is a dodge because I am not claiming our actions don't affect climate. Of course they do. The question is to what degree? You call me a denier but it is the opposite. I am following the science while you have become a believer.
    Face palm! Ahhh, sorry man, I really don't want to be an asshole here but seriously, WHAT SCIENCE?

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,060
    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    Smellyman said:

    It's a stupid debate by this point. You'd have to be a complete and utter moron to not believe that trashing the oceans, levelling forests and pumping billions of tons of pollution into the air has no effect on climate.....not to mention just dangerous for life to exist.

    If they refuse to acknowledge it by now it is simply wilful ignorance for some reason.

    I admire those who keep debating the deniers. I have no stomach or patience for ignorance and stupidity any more.

    This is a dodge because I am not claiming our actions don't affect climate. Of course they do. The question is to what degree? You call me a denier but it is the opposite. I am following the science while you have become a believer.
    Face palm! Ahhh, sorry man, I really don't want to be an asshole here but seriously, WHAT SCIENCE?

    The pause. We have talked about that. It is recognized by scientists but not yet explained. Current data not keeping up with models. The question is why?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    Smellyman said:

    It's a stupid debate by this point. You'd have to be a complete and utter moron to not believe that trashing the oceans, levelling forests and pumping billions of tons of pollution into the air has no effect on climate.....not to mention just dangerous for life to exist.

    If they refuse to acknowledge it by now it is simply wilful ignorance for some reason.

    I admire those who keep debating the deniers. I have no stomach or patience for ignorance and stupidity any more.

    This is a dodge because I am not claiming our actions don't affect climate. Of course they do. The question is to what degree? You call me a denier but it is the opposite. I am following the science while you have become a believer.
    Face palm! Ahhh, sorry man, I really don't want to be an asshole here but seriously, WHAT SCIENCE?

    The pause. We have talked about that. It is recognized by scientists but not yet explained. Current data not keeping up with models. The question is why?
    Yes, we have talked about that.. numerous times.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,060
    Long article that you might like for real Brian...i dug it...interesting perspective.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/carbon-capture
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    BS44325 said:

    Long article that you might like for real Brian...i dug it...interesting perspective.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/carbon-capture

    That really was interesting, BS, thanks. I've shelved hundreds of copies of Franzen's book over the years but never read him ("so many books, so little time") so it was interesting to read some of his stuff. He's an excellent writer, for sure. And I like his skepticism- that's always healthy.

    But he's a fiction writer, not a climate scientist. As much as he has some interesting things to say, I'm not inclined to use his words as basis for what I want to learn about climate. There are too may good science writers who are far more qualified and I don't even have time to read all of them.

    The sad thing here is that Franzen seems to generally have a good understanding of climate and environmental sciences but his lack of understanding of the power of nature is baffling. One of the big problems right from the start is his inferring that birds are not as endangered as once thought. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 12% (if read this in at least a couple of places but don't have links handy) of all bird species living are endangered.

    And there are other problems here. Franzen says:

    "Choosing to preserve nature at potential human expense would be morally more unsettling if nature still had the upper hand. But we live in the Anthropocene now—in a world ever more of our own making."

    That is an incredibly arrogant statement. He's basically saying "we've changed the world so the world will just have to live with that." Well, yes, of course we have changed the world but to to assume we can just keep tweaking it to our own purposes is pure foolishness. He goes on to say:

    "We’ve always been not only universal despoilers but brilliant adapters; climate change is just the same old story writ larger. The only self-inflicted existential threat to our species is nuclear war."

    Again, sheer arrogance. Yes, we are very clever animals but to assume we can alter natures cycles and adapt to every change that comes along is both foolish and dangerous. And no, sorry, but nuclear war is certainly not the only self-inflicted threat to our species. The man shows a great lack of understanding of basic ecological science here.

    Franzen seems to take a fatalistic view of our impact on the planet. He says:

    "Climate change shares many attributes of the economic system that’s accelerating it. Like capitalism, it is transnational, unpredictably disruptive, self-compounding, and inescapable."

    Does the author recognize that capitalism itself, with the larger context of human impact, are at the very root of this "inescapable" climate change? And is there no room in the authors thinking for the notion that at least reducing our impact might be wise thinking?

    The last half or more of the article is an interesting account of Franzen's travels in central and south America that end with a rather weak conclusion:

    "The animals may not be able to thank us for allowing them to live, and they certainly wouldn’t do the same thing for us if our positions were reversed. But it’s we, not they, who need life to have meaning. "

    Even if they could, why should the animals thank us for allowing them to live? Again, this is an incredibly arrogant, anthropocentric view- the very kind of mind set that is creating so much of the mess in the first place.

    I like Franzen's writing enough such that I might give one of his novels a read some time but I must say, I'll probably not take more time with any more of his attempts at addressing environmental issues.

    But thanks for posting it. It was interesting.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,060
    And from the opposite end of the spectrum...possibility that we are entering the 19th Little Ice Age. First bit is a little shrill but the second half gets too the science behind it all.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-global-warming-doomsayers-take-note-earths-19th-little-ice-age-has-begun


  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    BS44325 said:

    And from the opposite end of the spectrum...possibility that we are entering the 19th Little Ice Age. First bit is a little shrill but the second half gets too the science behind it all.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-global-warming-doomsayers-take-note-earths-19th-little-ice-age-has-begun


    You are relentless BS, I'll give you that. But getting information about climate science from conservative business media would not be my first, second, third, fourth etc. choice.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,060
    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    And from the opposite end of the spectrum...possibility that we are entering the 19th Little Ice Age. First bit is a little shrill but the second half gets too the science behind it all.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-global-warming-doomsayers-take-note-earths-19th-little-ice-age-has-begun


    You are relentless BS, I'll give you that. But getting information about climate science from conservative business media would not be my first, second, third, fourth etc. choice.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah but it's the work of the Russian scientist that is interesting.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    And from the opposite end of the spectrum...possibility that we are entering the 19th Little Ice Age. First bit is a little shrill but the second half gets too the science behind it all.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-global-warming-doomsayers-take-note-earths-19th-little-ice-age-has-begun


    You are relentless BS, I'll give you that. But getting information about climate science from conservative business media would not be my first, second, third, fourth etc. choice.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah but it's the work of the Russian scientist that is interesting.
    Habibullo Abdussamatov is an astrophysicist. He is completely out of his field of expertise when talking about climate. Reading this kind of stuff is like going through back issues of Quilters World looking for guitar tabs for Yellow Ledbetter. You know why conservative publications print this stuff? Because they want or are afraid of loosing your business, not because they care about how we are affecting climate change.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,060
    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    And from the opposite end of the spectrum...possibility that we are entering the 19th Little Ice Age. First bit is a little shrill but the second half gets too the science behind it all.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-global-warming-doomsayers-take-note-earths-19th-little-ice-age-has-begun


    You are relentless BS, I'll give you that. But getting information about climate science from conservative business media would not be my first, second, third, fourth etc. choice.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah but it's the work of the Russian scientist that is interesting.
    Habibullo Abdussamatov is an astrophysicist. He is completely out of his field of expertise when talking about climate. Reading this kind of stuff is like going through back issues of Quilters World looking for guitar tabs for Yellow Ledbetter. You know why conservative publications print this stuff? Because they want or are afraid of loosing your business, not because they care about how we are affecting climate change.
    Out of his field? That is just crazy. If you are for science then you are for science. To discount it out of hand puts you on par with the worst deniers.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    And from the opposite end of the spectrum...possibility that we are entering the 19th Little Ice Age. First bit is a little shrill but the second half gets too the science behind it all.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-global-warming-doomsayers-take-note-earths-19th-little-ice-age-has-begun


    You are relentless BS, I'll give you that. But getting information about climate science from conservative business media would not be my first, second, third, fourth etc. choice.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah but it's the work of the Russian scientist that is interesting.
    Habibullo Abdussamatov is an astrophysicist. He is completely out of his field of expertise when talking about climate. Reading this kind of stuff is like going through back issues of Quilters World looking for guitar tabs for Yellow Ledbetter. You know why conservative publications print this stuff? Because they want or are afraid of loosing your business, not because they care about how we are affecting climate change.
    Out of his field? That is just crazy. If you are for science then you are for science. To discount it out of hand puts you on par with the worst deniers.
    Duly noted, BS.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    Damn, I'm just glad to finally have a president come out in the open and talk about this. I've been waiting for this to happen for decades. Seriously.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • WASHINGTON —
    Global warming isn’t just affecting the weather, it’s harming Americans’ health, President Barack Obama said Tuesday as he announced steps government and businesses will take to better understand and deal with the problem.

    Obama said hazards of the changing climate include wildfires sending more pollution into the air, allergy seasons growing longer and rising cases of insect-borne diseases.

    “We’ve got to do better in protecting our vulnerable families,” Obama said, adding that, ultimately, all families are affected.

    “You can’t cordon yourself off from air,” Obama said. Speaking at Howard University Medical School, he announced commitments from Google, Microsoft and others to help the nation’s health system prepare for a warmer, more erratic climate.

    Warning of the perils to the planet has gotten the president only so far; polls consistently show the public is skeptical that the steps Obama has taken to curb pollution are worth the cost to the economy. So Obama is aiming to put a spotlight on ways that climate change will have real impacts on the body, like more asthma attacks, allergic reactions, heat-related deaths and injuries from extreme weather.

    Obama said spending on health — such as preventing asthma — can save more money than it costs, as well as alleviate pain and suffering.

    Surgeon General Vivek Murthy noted that people suffering from an increase in asthma-attack triggers lose time at work and school. Murthy, a doctor, said the problem was especially personal for him because he’s seen so many patients struggle to breathe and his own uncle died of a severe asthma attack.

    Microsoft’s research arm will develop a prototype for drones that can collect large quantities of mosquitoes, then digitally analyze their genes and pathogens. The goal is to create a system that could provide early warnings about infectious diseases that could break out if climate change worsens.

    Google has promised to donate 10 million hours of advanced computing time on new tools, including risk maps and early warnings for things like wildfires and oil flares using the Google Earth Engine platform, the White House said. Google’s camera cars that gather photos for its “Street View” function will start measuring methane emissions and natural gas leaks in some cities this year.

    The Obama administration also announced a series of modest steps it will take to boost preparedness, such as expanding access to data to predict and minimize the health effects from climate change.

    Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December.
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    edited April 2015
    "Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December."

    In other words, Obama is attempting to cut more American jobs and sucker more people into government health insurance.

    Sounds more like the scare tactics you were mentioning in another thread.
    Post edited by Last-12-Exit on
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292

    "Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December."

    In other words, Obama is attempting to cut more American jobs and sucker more people into government health insurance.

    Sounds more like the scare tactics you were mentioning in another thread.

    Two immediate thoughts" 1) alternative will actually create more jobs, not fewer and 2) on a planet that is inhospitable for human habitation (no exaggeration) there will be no jobs (I forget the exact quote, but I first came upon that thought somewhere in Yvon Chouinard's marvelous book, Let My People Go Surfing- a book that is much more about socially responsible business and environment than surfing but it does show Yvon catching a nice wave on the cover :-) ).

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    brianlux said:

    "Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December."

    In other words, Obama is attempting to cut more American jobs and sucker more people into government health insurance.

    Sounds more like the scare tactics you were mentioning in another thread.

    Two immediate thoughts" 1) alternative will actually create more jobs, not fewer and 2) on a planet that is inhospitable for human habitation (no exaggeration) there will be no jobs (I forget the exact quote, but I first came upon that thought somewhere in Yvon Chouinard's marvelous book, Let My People Go Surfing- a book that is much more about socially responsible business and environment than surfing but it does show Yvon catching a nice wave on the cover :-) ).

    I keep seeing you say that it will create new jobs, but I just haven't seen those numbers. I have heard of several Obama backed "green " companies close up shop in the past 8 years.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292

    brianlux said:

    "Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December."

    In other words, Obama is attempting to cut more American jobs and sucker more people into government health insurance.

    Sounds more like the scare tactics you were mentioning in another thread.

    Two immediate thoughts" 1) alternative will actually create more jobs, not fewer and 2) on a planet that is inhospitable for human habitation (no exaggeration) there will be no jobs (I forget the exact quote, but I first came upon that thought somewhere in Yvon Chouinard's marvelous book, Let My People Go Surfing- a book that is much more about socially responsible business and environment than surfing but it does show Yvon catching a nice wave on the cover :-) ).

    I keep seeing you say that it will create new jobs, but I just haven't seen those numbers. I have heard of several Obama backed "green " companies close up shop in the past 8 years.
    Sorry, I do repeat myself too often.

    Check this out. Scroll down to "Jobs and Other Economic Benefits". This is not a random Google hit. I support ucsusa and have have followed them for several years. They have an excellent track record well researched information.

    http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/our-energy-choices/renewable-energy/public-benefits-of-renewable.html#.VSRyS5O21Vc

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    "Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December."

    In other words, Obama is attempting to cut more American jobs and sucker more people into government health insurance.

    Sounds more like the scare tactics you were mentioning in another thread.

    Two immediate thoughts" 1) alternative will actually create more jobs, not fewer and 2) on a planet that is inhospitable for human habitation (no exaggeration) there will be no jobs (I forget the exact quote, but I first came upon that thought somewhere in Yvon Chouinard's marvelous book, Let My People Go Surfing- a book that is much more about socially responsible business and environment than surfing but it does show Yvon catching a nice wave on the cover :-) ).

    I keep seeing you say that it will create new jobs, but I just haven't seen those numbers. I have heard of several Obama backed "green " companies close up shop in the past 8 years.
    Sorry, I do repeat myself too often.

    Check this out. Scroll down to "Jobs and Other Economic Benefits". This is not a random Google hit. I support ucsusa and have have followed them for several years. They have an excellent track record well researched information.

    http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/our-energy-choices/renewable-energy/public-benefits-of-renewable.html#.VSRyS5O21Vc

    I will check it out. I wasn't implying you repeat yourself. Just that Ive seen you reference the increase in jobs in regards to green companies a few times. I read somewhere that since 2009, over 100 solar companies have either declared bankruptcy or have been absorbed. Many of those companies were backed with federal money from Obamas stimulus packages. I'll find the link to that article.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    "Obama’s effort to link climate change to health comes as he works to build support for steps he’s taken to curb U.S. emissions, including strict limits on vehicles and power plants. The president is relying on those emissions cuts to make up the U.S. contribution to a global climate treaty that he and other world leaders expect to finalize in December."

    In other words, Obama is attempting to cut more American jobs and sucker more people into government health insurance.

    Sounds more like the scare tactics you were mentioning in another thread.

    Two immediate thoughts" 1) alternative will actually create more jobs, not fewer and 2) on a planet that is inhospitable for human habitation (no exaggeration) there will be no jobs (I forget the exact quote, but I first came upon that thought somewhere in Yvon Chouinard's marvelous book, Let My People Go Surfing- a book that is much more about socially responsible business and environment than surfing but it does show Yvon catching a nice wave on the cover :-) ).

    I keep seeing you say that it will create new jobs, but I just haven't seen those numbers. I have heard of several Obama backed "green " companies close up shop in the past 8 years.
    Sorry, I do repeat myself too often.

    Check this out. Scroll down to "Jobs and Other Economic Benefits". This is not a random Google hit. I support ucsusa and have have followed them for several years. They have an excellent track record well researched information.

    http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/our-energy-choices/renewable-energy/public-benefits-of-renewable.html#.VSRyS5O21Vc

    I will check it out. I wasn't implying you repeat yourself. Just that Ive seen you reference the increase in jobs in regards to green companies a few times. I read somewhere that since 2009, over 100 solar companies have either declared bankruptcy or have been absorbed. Many of those companies were backed with federal money from Obamas stimulus packages. I'll find the link to that article.
    It's the way of business. The companies that do well thrive, the ones that don't die out. Also, I don't necessarily subscribe to every business that calls itself "green" as being sustainable or resourceful. Some are actually quite the opposite. Don't be fooled by false "green" claims. The concept of "Green" is so often twisted these day that seeing that word often raises a red flag for me, sometimes so outrageously so, I get blue in the face.

    But the potential for many jobs through sustainable industry is great. From the ucsusa link above:

    "Increasing renewable energy has the potential to create still more jobs. In 2009, the Union of Concerned Scientists conducted an analysis of the economic benefits of a 25 percent renewable energy standard by 2025; it found that such a policy would create more than three times as many jobs as producing an equivalent amount of electricity from fossil fuels—resulting in a benefit of 202,000 new jobs in 2025"





    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,951
    what else is there to say? note the last couple pics.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/4/7/8352381/anthropocene-NASA-images
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 32,292
    mickeyrat said:

    what else is there to say? note the last couple pics.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/4/7/8352381/anthropocene-NASA-images

    Nice to see some positive images there but (and honestly, I'm not trying to simply throw negative words out here) those images of solar farms are disturbing to me. I have a cousin who is an environmental lawyer who described to me in a very detailed manner why those solar farms are highly invasive and destructive to fragile desert ecosystems. It would make so much more sense to install solar panels on existing structures (imagine most of the building and covered parking lots in L.A., for example, covered with solar panels instead of those fragile ecosystems.) Why humans can't use better logic is baffling.

    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










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