If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

Thirty Bills Unpaid

badbrains wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

badbrains wrote:

As for the Quran GF, when it says infidel it's speaking as one who has no faith or belief in god. God, as in the same god Christians and Muslims believe in.

This is still troubling.

So... anyone that doesn't believe in an omnipresent, eternal and divine being living in the clouds somewhere should perish at the hands of those that do believe in an omnipresent, eternal and divine being living in the clouds somewhere?

Wow, I didn't say it says go and kill all infidels. Look I've stated in the past that I'm not a big follower of my religion but I do know 1 thing that stuck out to me about Islam. It says that anyone Muslim who kills another human being will be punished by god as if he has killed all of humanity. If you're really interested, go to a mosque and talk to an imam. Believe me when I say they'll welcome you in with open arms.

From what I have been led to believe, the Quran does encourage violence towards 'infidels' (several times and in extreme fashion). Do I have this wrong? I hope I do. If I don't... please tell me that this isn't 'the good book' that guides Muslim people spiritually.

PJ_Soul

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Neither do I. Democracy, yes (which is a completely ridiculous thing to try and do, since it just doesn't work that way), but not Christianity. You have to look towards the leadership of Christian organizations before making that accusation.

Christianity is not a religion. Catholicism is. Look at how often the US President mentions God in his speeches, etc, and you'll understand that the western way of life that the US is trying to manipulate others into emulating isn't just about the clothes we wear.

and yes, forcing democracy, or any other way of life contrary to the one in place, onto another group of people, is unbelievably stupid. it's just not possible.

I didn't say one Christian church. I said Christian organizations, meaning many different christian organizations, including the Catholic Church.
Sure the President mentions God sometimes, but he doesn't specify a Christian god (on the contrary, he often qualifies it to encompass various faiths). It simply is not true that the US government pushes Christianity in the world.

Pingfah

Godfather. wrote:

not what I was refering to, his jabs and fox new comments must be all he has to back up his statement.

I don't need anything to back up my statement. You said that out of the 25% of the entire population of the world that are Muslim, you think more than half of them are extremists. You don't even need to be half smart to work out what a ridiculous statement that is. So what's your excuse?

Godfather.

Pingfah wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

not what I was refering to, his jabs and fox new comments must be all he has to back up his statement.

I don't need anything to back up my statement. You said that out of the 25% of the entire population of the world that are Muslim, you think more than half of them are extremists. You don't even need to be half smart to work out what a ridiculous statement that is. So what's your excuse?

re-read my post smart guy, if you need to add words to my statement you're digging for anything to make a meaningless jab but coming from you....well you know...
ummmmm my excuse ? read the paper or watch the news,any sourse you see fit will do.

Godfather.

Godfather.

The number of U.S. drone strikes appears to have dropped significantly over the past several months while terrorists have staged dozens of attacks, a trend raising concerns for the top House Republican on national intelligence.

New statistics from the West Point Counterterroism Center show more than 60 terror attacks across the world since July 1 -- most recently, the attack at a Kenya mall last weekend in which more than 60 people were killed.

Meanwhile, the number of U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen – the hotbed for Al Qaeda and other terror groups -- appears to have decreased significantly over roughly the same period.

The publication The Long War Journal reports a total of 22 strikes since May in those countries.

The apparent trend of fewer strikes amid perceptions of a weakened Al Qaeda and diminished terror threats is drawing concern from Rep. Mike Rogers, chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

“It's not diminishing,” the Michigan Republican told Fox News on Tuesday. “There have been counterterrorism changes made by the administration that have concerned us all, things that we've been working on for a period of months that we're trying to work through that are very, very concerning. This is no time to retreat.”

The White House has not commented on the apparent decrease in drone strikes but has referred reporters to President Obama’s May 23 speech at the National Defense University in which he discussed the county’s evolving efforts to combat the war on terror.

The president said the United States will continue to “dismantle [terror] networks that pose a direct danger to us” but can no longer define its efforts as a “boundless global war on terror.”


Godfather.

Dirtie_Frank

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

[
Canada didn't go to Iraq. The US did.

I am sure I seen Canadians in Iraq as well as Afghanistan. Am I missing something :?:

Dirtie_Frank

"Hugh wrote:

would you do that if you knew that by doing so you are painting a bullseye on your family and friends? most people in the west don't even stand up for what they believe in face to face when it would result in nothing more than a shouting match or a minor scuffle, never mind if it means their heads will be cut off or their neighbours blown to bits.

So you are advocating living in fear rather than standing up for what you believe in?

Pingfah

Godfather. wrote:

Pingfah wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

not what I was refering to, his jabs and fox new comments must be all he has to back up his statement.

I don't need anything to back up my statement. You said that out of the 25% of the entire population of the world that are Muslim, you think more than half of them are extremists. You don't even need to be half smart to work out what a ridiculous statement that is. So what's your excuse?

re-read my post smart guy, if you need to add words to my statement you're digging for anything to make a meaningless jab but coming from you....well you know...
ummmmm my excuse ? read the paper or watch the news,any sourse you see fit will do.

Godfather.

I'm quite familiar with the contents of your post, you said "it sure seems that there are more extremists than peacefull ones."

Pretty straightforward.

Godfather.

(CNN) -- A federal judge on Wednesday sentenced an American citizen to 25 years in prison for conspiring to sell missiles, rifles and other weapons to the Taliban, the U.S. attorney's office for Manhattan announced.

The sentence for Alwar Pouryan -- which includes 10 years of supervised release after he leaves prison -- comes the month after he and a co-defendant were found guilty following a two-week bench trial by U.S. District Judge Naomi Reice Buchwald.

"Alwar Pouryan was an American who was all too willing to do business with the Taliban -- agreeing to provide that narco-terrorist organization with lethal, military-grade weapons that would have put countless innocent lives at risk," Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said in a statement.

"The sentence handed down today is a just and appropriate penalty for an individual who so callously sold out his country."

According to the Bahara's office, the 38-year-old Pouryan and his co-conspirator Oded Orbach began communicating in fall 2010 with a person they believed represented the Taliban -- but who actually worked for the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

In conversations by phone, e-mail, Skype and in person in Ghana, Ukraine and Romania, Pouryan and Orbach offered specifics about what types of arms they'd sell and for how much.

The weapons discussed included anti-tank missiles, grenade launchers and M-16 assault rifles, not to mention ammunition. Pouryan and Orbach were told surface-to-air missiles were especially needed to protect Taliban-run heroin facilities in Afghanistan from U.S. helicopter attacks, according to the federal prosecutor's office.

Evidence presented during the trial included e-mails from Orbach to third-party weapons suppliers, asking about obtaining some of the items.

Feds: 7 men charged with conspiring to supply Taliban

After hashing out price lists and other details, the two sides reached a deal: more than $25 million worth in weapons, ammunition and training, of which Pouryan and Orbach would pocket $800,000 in commission.

Until, of course, the plot unraveled with the two American men's February 2011 arrest in Bucharest, Romania. Pouryan and Orbach were extradited more than three months later to the United States, where they stood trial.

Five other men tied to the plot -- all of whom coordinated with the same undercover agent, some of whom worked directly with Pouryan and Orbach -- were arrested in Liberia and likewise brought to the United States.

Four of them allegedly agreed to oversee a shipment to Benin of Taliban-owned heroin, which the Taliban could profit from after it was eventually flown to the United States, the U.S. Justice Department stated in 2011. All five consented to sell the Taliban cocaine that the Afghanistan-based Islamist group could then sell for a profit, according to the agency.

The 55-year-old Orbach, who is currently being held in New York according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, is set to be sentenced on November 1 by Judge Buchwald.




Godfather.

JimmyV

Godfather. wrote:

(CNN) -- A federal judge on Wednesday sentenced an American citizen to 25 years in prison for conspiring to sell missiles, rifles and other weapons to the Taliban, the U.S. attorney's office for Manhattan announced.

The sentence for Alwar Pouryan -- which includes 10 years of supervised release after he leaves prison -- comes the month after he and a co-defendant were found guilty following a two-week bench trial by U.S. District Judge Naomi Reice Buchwald.

"Alwar Pouryan was an American who was all too willing to do business with the Taliban -- agreeing to provide that narco-terrorist organization with lethal, military-grade weapons that would have put countless innocent lives at risk," Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said in a statement.

"The sentence handed down today is a just and appropriate penalty for an individual who so callously sold out his country."

According to the Bahara's office, the 38-year-old Pouryan and his co-conspirator Oded Orbach began communicating in fall 2010 with a person they believed represented the Taliban -- but who actually worked for the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

In conversations by phone, e-mail, Skype and in person in Ghana, Ukraine and Romania, Pouryan and Orbach offered specifics about what types of arms they'd sell and for how much.

The weapons discussed included anti-tank missiles, grenade launchers and M-16 assault rifles, not to mention ammunition. Pouryan and Orbach were told surface-to-air missiles were especially needed to protect Taliban-run heroin facilities in Afghanistan from U.S. helicopter attacks, according to the federal prosecutor's office.

Evidence presented during the trial included e-mails from Orbach to third-party weapons suppliers, asking about obtaining some of the items.

Feds: 7 men charged with conspiring to supply Taliban

After hashing out price lists and other details, the two sides reached a deal: more than $25 million worth in weapons, ammunition and training, of which Pouryan and Orbach would pocket $800,000 in commission.

Until, of course, the plot unraveled with the two American men's February 2011 arrest in Bucharest, Romania. Pouryan and Orbach were extradited more than three months later to the United States, where they stood trial.

Five other men tied to the plot -- all of whom coordinated with the same undercover agent, some of whom worked directly with Pouryan and Orbach -- were arrested in Liberia and likewise brought to the United States.

Four of them allegedly agreed to oversee a shipment to Benin of Taliban-owned heroin, which the Taliban could profit from after it was eventually flown to the United States, the U.S. Justice Department stated in 2011. All five consented to sell the Taliban cocaine that the Afghanistan-based Islamist group could then sell for a profit, according to the agency.

The 55-year-old Orbach, who is currently being held in New York according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, is set to be sentenced on November 1 by Judge Buchwald.




Godfather.

I'm sure somewhere someone is arguing this is just another poor innocent soul entrapped by the US government. :roll:

fuck

Jesus Christ. Where to begin.

First of all, let's clear something up here: none of you, it seems, have even gone through the trouble of looking through the Quran yourself, let alone actual texts written about Islam from even Western scholars. Instead, you are asking another member of the forum to do the work for you and explain it to you.

Fine. badbrains is incorrect, I'm afraid. "Infidel" first of all is not even an accurate translation of the word from the Quran, which is "kafir." A kafir is not simply an infidel. The most accurate explanation is that it's someone who tries to cover "the truth." In fact, the english word "cover" comes from the arabic word "kafir." In other words, it's a person who is actively persecuting your ability to practice and preach your religion. This is because the people living in Mecca during the 7th century were not simply allowing the prophet to preach, but then he was trying to kill them all.

Let me take a break here: one of the biggest problems with Islamic radicals is that they take verses from the Quran, and reports on what the Prophet did out of the historical context and try to apply it in modern day. Unfortunately, that is also what many of you are doing, which is why you are allowing Islamic radicals the ability to shape the religion, because people in the West are just so obsessed with looking at ONLY those guys. In fact, someone in this thread said something along the lines of 'it's not relevant to talk about moderate Muslims,' and that essentially we should only be talking about radicals, which is absolutely absurd.

Anyway, going back to the prophet. What people don't realize is that as he spent 23 years spreading Islam, the first 13 of those years were not just exclusively nonviolent, but he specifically prohibited any armed resistance to the persecution people were facing who converted to Islam: this included torture, killings, isolation which would often lead to starvation in tribal societies, etc. Like the Christian reports of Jesus, he advocated a "turn the other cheek" philosophy for 13 years. It was not until he moved to Medina that eventually they began engaging the Meccans militarily. And even in those instances, killings of women, children, elderly, etc., were prohibited: for more on this, you can read about the conquest of Mecca in 630 which was bloodless. Ultimately, without trying to bore you people with too much history, it was specific instances that the Quran sanctioned the use of warfare: when people are persecuting you, "driving you from your homes" (a literal quote in reference to the fact that the Muslims had to leave Mecca for Medina), etc.

Islam actually takes a very practical approach to these types of situations, which is why it does not completely outlaw warfare. But to argue that it advocates targeting any person who simply does not believe in God is so absurd and has literally no religious OR historical basis. In fact, for hundreds of years the Islamic world was by far the most pluralistic and accepting society, especially in light of the horrible crimes that were going on in Europe.

When Europe began its colonization efforts in the Muslim world, they began implementing many types of policies that began discriminating against the indigenous Muslims. The capitulations that were instituted are by far some of the most obvious examples in the different countries (Tunisia, Algeria, etc), or how they began granting certain religious groups citizenship while denying others (such as the French allowing Jews in Algeria citizenship but not Muslims). These policies that the Europeans were instituting in the 19th and 20th centuries are important because it's what would shape the way religious groups in the Muslim world began interacting with each other: yes, they were political (and economic/resource-oriented) policies, but they were still made on the basis of religious identity. This is why we can't simply try to create distinctions between what is "religious" and what is "political" or "economic" or whatever. It doesn't work that way. Religious identity is a part of society, it's a part of how people view themselves as individuals, as a community, as a nation, etc. It directly plays into politics. And the Europeans exploited it and instituted a 'divide and conquer' strategy, which is why countries like Lebanon now have such horrible animosity between their various religious groups (Christians, Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, etc). The 1975 civil war there was a direct result of the colonial practices of the Europeans. There's also the issue of the state of Israel, a state constructed for Jews and created by ethnically cleansing Muslim and Christian Palestinians--this act was and is defended vigorously to this day by Western powers, even as it continues.

I know there are tons of colonial apologists here who think it's nonsense to "blame" everything that happens today on colonialism. Good thing none of you actually know shit about history or Middle Eastern politics though, cause if you did then you might actually have to deconstruct the bullshit worldview you've been living that vindicates the West of any wrongdoing so you can try to live happily ever after in a "post-colonial" world.

In today's world, we have actually convinced ourselves that the problem with Islam is that it, in and of itself, inspires individuals to commit these horrendous acts, whereas when it comes to Western governments, they simply do horrible things for typical human reasons (greed, etc). How is it that you've actually been able to convince yourself of this, I have no clue, but obviously indoctrination from the media plays a huge role. For instance, none of you care to question why the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world lives peacefully--are they just practicing their religion incorrectly? Are they just overlooking certain parts of their religion that are more "brutal" and that's what makes them so peaceful? So, only the radicals are the ones who are technically practicing it correctly?

This is the problem, again, of allowing radical muslims to shape your view of the religion. Many of you blame Muslim leaders and individuals for not standing up to these radicals as the reason. The problem is that someone in this thread said we can't say the US is spreading Christianity without looking up what different Christian organizations say. Well how many of you actually cared to look up what various elements in Muslim societies say? I don't think any of you have, seeing as how none of you have even cared to open up a Quran or read any credible source on Islam.

The fact is, the radicals did this act in Kenya not for religious reasons, but for various other ones. Yes, they find religious justification, and they try to win over religious favor by doing stupid things like "if you're Muslim leave," etc., but Muslims died by their gunfire too. The fact is, al-Shabab themselves said this was done because of Kenya infringing on Somalian sovereignty before--i.e., a political reason.

The Western religion, Liberalism, has been abused for centuries to justify going to several countries and killing millions of people. But no one ever says liberalism is to blame--it's just been "abused." Well, Islam has been abused. And the reason you hear about it so often is largely because the Muslim world has been at the forefront of several invasions from Western powers for years--not to save them from themselves, but for the West's gain. Add to this the delicate history of the past couple hundred years since colonialism as well, and you have a very troubling scenario. Muslim leaders are trying to speak out, but the problem is that the moment they condemn Islamic radicals AND Western/Israeli invasions and crimes, they are isolated and condemned by Western media. The binary of "Good Muslim/Bad Muslim" means you either support the U.S. and Israel, or you are 'one of them.' This is the reality on the ground. Muslims are spied on and persecuted by the U.S. government in this country for speaking out against crimes committed by the government and by Israel--and they are repressed in their own societies by autocratic governments that are supported by the U.S. (like Saudi).

So what's the solution to this horrible mess? I doubt any of you have one. It's way too complicated. So if you don't have a solution, kindly shut the hell up and stop trashing an entire religion that has over a billion followers.

fuck

JimmyV wrote:

I'm sure somewhere someone is arguing this is just another poor innocent soul entrapped by the US government. :roll:

Do you deny that the U.S. government has been entrapping Muslims?

JimmyV

fuck wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

I'm sure somewhere someone is arguing this is just another poor innocent soul entrapped by the US government. :roll:

Do you deny that the U.S. government has been entrapping Muslims?

Do I deny entrapment exists? No.

Do I believe it is a charge trotted out far too often when people (of all religions, faiths and creeds) are caught in a dirty deal? Yes.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

An excellent post, Fuck.

Thanks for the time you have taken to shed some light on this issue.

You have me curious now to the point where I wish to research some of what you have expressed. I have devout Muslim friends that I am sure can assist me with this endeavour. If you feel you wish to point me in the right direction, feel free (BadBrains, feel free as well!).

fuck

JimmyV wrote:

fuck wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

I'm sure somewhere someone is arguing this is just another poor innocent soul entrapped by the US government. :roll:

Do you deny that the U.S. government has been entrapping Muslims?

Do I deny entrapment exists? No.

Do I believe it is a charge trotted out far too often when people (of all religions, faiths and creeds) are caught in a dirty deal? Yes.

Fair enough. But to read an article about someone being arrested and rolling your eyes at the possibility that it's an entrapment, when various reports have been written and records exist of it being done an incredible amount over the last several years, is premature and, in my opinion, not the right way to go about things. The problem is too many people in this thread feel too comfortable making judgments about issues they clearly haven't read about. Who are you to roll your eyes at a young person being sentenced for virtually the rest of their life, when you haven't done any research into whether or not that person is actually guilty?

I know people think that the US justice system is so grand, and sure it makes a mistake every now and then, but it's virtually infallible--this is just not true, particularly when it comes to the "domestic war on terror." The US judicial system is just as political as the others. Read up on it, please.

fuck

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

An excellent post, Fuck.

Thanks for the time you have taken to shed some light on this issue.

You have me curious now to the point where I wish to research some of what you have expressed. I have devout Muslim friends that I am sure can assist me with this endeavour. If you feel you wish to point me in the right direction, feel free (BadBrains, feel free as well!).

John Esposito, a professor at Georgetown University, is one of the biggest and most well-known experts on Islam in the US. Check out any of his books: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ ... 20esposito

Thirty Bills Unpaid

fuck wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

An excellent post, Fuck.

Thanks for the time you have taken to shed some light on this issue.

You have me curious now to the point where I wish to research some of what you have expressed. I have devout Muslim friends that I am sure can assist me with this endeavour. If you feel you wish to point me in the right direction, feel free (BadBrains, feel free as well!).

John Esposito, a professor at Georgetown University, is one of the biggest and most well-known experts on Islam in the US. Check out any of his books: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ ... 20esposito

As the Spanish would say: "grassy-ass!"

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Just ordered one from him. A curious title, but one seemingly appropriate:
The Islamaphobia Industry: How the Right Manufactures Fear of Muslims (Esposito)

fuck

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Just ordered one from him. A curious title, but one seemingly appropriate:
The Islamaphobia Industry: How the Right Manufactures Fear of Muslims (Esposito)

Nathan Lean wrote that actually. It's an interesting book, depending on what topic you're interested in researching.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

fuck wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Just ordered one from him. A curious title, but one seemingly appropriate:
The Islamaphobia Industry: How the Right Manufactures Fear of Muslims (Esposito)

Nathan Lean wrote that actually. It's an interesting book, depending on what topic you're interested in researching.

I wish to research the mounting tension towards Muslim people. I am hoping the book will dispel some of the most common misunderstandings in the process.