If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

PJ_Soul

fuck wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Gotta consider the source. The Muslim Brotherhood doesn't get to speak for all Muslims.

Why is anyone still talking about "all Muslims"? I don't see how "all Muslims" are relevant to this conversation. "All Muslims" are not the concern here. Extremist Muslims are. And there are a lot of them, and they are dangerous. The only relevance that "all Muslims" have here is in that "all Muslims" do not seem to be doing anywhere near enough to oppose the extremists.

Actually, I already refuted the claims you're making in this post.

First of all, when people, such as yourself, are trying to make comments about Islam as a religion, we absolutely have to talk about Muslims, ALL Muslims. I know it's convenient for you to bash Islam by pointing at radicals, but that's just the wrong way to go about it. I know I have to use absolutist talk here, but I'm afraid you're just plain wrong. When we're talking about Islam as an entire religion, we can't let the discussion be shaped by radicals.

Earlier in this thread, you mentioned that 25-30% of Muslims in the Middle East are extremist, only to casually mention below that comment that you essentially pulled those numbers out of your ass (I think you said something along the lines of, 'I read it here and there'). Wonderful.

I think we have a problem here: first, we are throwing around terms like 'extremist' without attempting to define it. By what standards do you make the claim that 30% of a population the size of the US is extremist? Because Egypt voted in the Muslim Brotherhood during democratic elections, does that mean the majority of Egyptians are extremist? Are the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt an extremist organization? Based on what?

The above poster posts a quote from Hassan al-Banna who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928: not only would it be wrong to take that quote and say "this is what Islam preaches," but it would even be incorrect to suggest that that is what the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) preaches. The MB evolved as an organization over many decades. The MB you see now is not the same MB that you saw in the 60s, is not the same that was around in the 40s, etc. The MB formally renounced ever using violence as a means decades ago. They've participated in politics, adopted democracy (as they did in Egypt) especially as they had popular support through the many initiatives they were employing in society (founding clinics, distributing food, etc). So what makes the MB extremist?

Here's another problem: you are talking about 'Islamic extremists' and 'extremism' in general terms to suggest that there is one unified global movement seeking the destruction of anything not like it. This is the same nonsensical claim that people were making about communism in the Cold War. People on this board like Godfather, who were probably running around yelling "commie!" at anyone smoking a joint in the 60s, love these grand pictures of good vs evil. But it's just not true.

The different Islamic groups that exist in various parts of the world were not founded off the same Islamic custom. They are unique to the contexts in which they were founded in: Hezbollah is unique to the Lebanese context, Hamas to the Palestinian, the MB to Egypt, al-Shabab to Somalia, al-Qaeda to Saudi (and later Yemen, Iraq, etc), the Taliban to Afghanistan, and so on.

The Islamic groups are not one and the same. The MB in Egypt advocate for nonviolence and democracy. Hamas in Palestine is fighting a violent occupation, you can't remove them from that context. It's the same elsewhere. Likewise, some Islamic groups are far more tolerant and respectful towards other religious groups than others. For instance, the MB in Egypt, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the Islamic trend existing in Tunisia are far more tolerant of other religious groups than, say, al-Qaeda or the Taliban. In fact, al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not even tolerant toward other Muslims!

We can't remove all these individual Islamic groups and say "these are all Islamic extremists and all must be fought against." Just because something is Islamic or even "Islamist" does not make it violent, intolerant, etc. Some resort to armed struggle because they were founded in the context of violent foreign occupation. Others because force is the way to rule (like the Taliban). They have to be opposed, but we can't be talking, like the way ajedigecko is and say "the MB must be eliminated." That type of talk is almost genocidal. Let's be rational in our approach. The MB is not a global threat--in fact, they have been persecuted for decades by US-backed dictatorships. In fact, the Islamic monarchy of Saudi Arabia has assisted in persecuting the Brotherhood! This is because this is bigger than simply "Islam." This is about power, politics, and particular ideologies winning over others, not about a religion dictating us to kill others.

As for PJ_Soul's claim that all Muslims aren't doing enough to oppose radicals, this is just a bullshit claim used to justify Islam-bashing, which I already addressed in a post that was likely too long for him or her to read (just as this one probably is). Oh well.

Dude, your posts are too fucking long. I don't have time for this.
All I really get from this is that you think everyone but you is basically full of shit. :roll: But I have NEVER EVER been an Islam basher, and also have not made any comments about Islam as a religion, so stop throwing around accusations, which is what you keep pulling out of YOUR ass. If you're going to make accusations, at least check and make sure they make any sense or apply to the person you're accusing. Also, stop acting like a such a know it all. Just because people don't say EVERYTHING POSSIBLE in each of their posts it doesn't mean that they are clueless just because of exclusion (i.e. yeah, i fucking know Islamic extremists aren't all just one group... do we really have to assume that everyone here is so stupid that that can't just be assumed??). Jesus.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

yeah, i fucking know Islamic extremists aren't all just one group... do we really have to assume that everyone here is so stupid that that can't just be assumed??

You tell me:

PJ_Soul wrote:

20 - 30% of Muslims from the Middle East region, plus small groups scattered around the world can be considered to have extremist Islamic views, and that is nothing to sneeze at to say the least. That is a huge, massive threat that shouldn't be be underestimated in the world today. ... And yeah, I'm just spewing out numbers without links. Sorry. I'm just repeating what I've read here and there.

PJ_Soul

fuck wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

yeah, i fucking know Islamic extremists aren't all just one group... do we really have to assume that everyone here is so stupid that that can't just be assumed??

You tell me:

PJ_Soul wrote:

20 - 30% of Muslims from the Middle East region, plus small groups scattered around the world can be considered to have extremist Islamic views, and that is nothing to sneeze at to say the least. That is a huge, massive threat that shouldn't be be underestimated in the world today. ... And yeah, I'm just spewing out numbers without links. Sorry. I'm just repeating what I've read here and there.

What's your point? There is nothing there that is 1) Islamic bashing, or 2) suggesting that extremists are just one big group as opposed to many small extremist groups.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

I have NEVER EVER been an Islam basher, and also have not made any comments about Islam as a religion, so stop throwing around accusations, which is what you keep pulling out of YOUR ass. If you're going to make accusations, at least check and make sure they make any sense or apply to the person you're accusing.

Right. I'll just casually leave this here:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It is the Muslim religion that is wreaking havoc right now, and the one that is currently suppressing women to a high degree. I don't give a flying fuck what the Christians or anyone else used to do, or what some cult also does if we're talking about the wrongs of Islam (radical and otherwise). That makes no difference. Islam is a growing religion that is definitely presently maintaining and giving rise to many disturbing problems in the world.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208033&p=5048583&hilit=+islam#p5048583

PJ_Soul

fuck wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I have NEVER EVER been an Islam basher, and also have not made any comments about Islam as a religion, so stop throwing around accusations, which is what you keep pulling out of YOUR ass. If you're going to make accusations, at least check and make sure they make any sense or apply to the person you're accusing.

Right. I'll just casually leave this here:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It is the Muslim religion that is wreaking havoc right now, and the one that is currently suppressing women to a high degree. I don't give a flying fuck what the Christians or anyone else used to do, or what some cult also does if we're talking about the wrongs of Islam (radical and otherwise). That makes no difference. Islam is a growing religion that is definitely presently maintaining and giving rise to many disturbing problems in the world.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208033&p=5048583&hilit=+islam#p5048583

So the truth and talking about systemic problems within a faith is Islamic bashing? You can't seriously tell me that you think that Islam doesn't have problems, can you??? So it is the only religious group in the world outside of maybe Buddhism that doesn't present the world with problems?? FYI, simply saying things about problems within a faith and how they affect the world is not bashing IMO. It is looking at the truth of the matter. Don't go twisting it to make me look like a bigot. I have also posted things about the hypocrisies and systemic problems within the Catholic Church. That doesn't not make me a Christian basher. Also, I said nothing about the religion itself, i.e. tenants of the faith, etc. Although I will now: it is a religion (not the only one) that by its very nature, and yes it its teachings and practices, suppresses women. I am not cool with that as a woman.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

fuck wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I have NEVER EVER been an Islam basher, and also have not made any comments about Islam as a religion, so stop throwing around accusations, which is what you keep pulling out of YOUR ass. If you're going to make accusations, at least check and make sure they make any sense or apply to the person you're accusing.

Right. I'll just casually leave this here:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It is the Muslim religion that is wreaking havoc right now, and the one that is currently suppressing women to a high degree. I don't give a flying fuck what the Christians or anyone else used to do, or what some cult also does if we're talking about the wrongs of Islam (radical and otherwise). That makes no difference. Islam is a growing religion that is definitely presently maintaining and giving rise to many disturbing problems in the world.

http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.ph ... m#p5048583

So the truth and talking about systemic problems within a faith is Islamic bashing? You can't seriously tell me that you think that Islam doesn't have problems, can you??? So it is the only religious group in the world outside of maybe Buddhism that doesn't present the world with problems?? FYI, simply saying things about problems within a faith and how they affect the world is not bashing IMO. It is looking at the truth of the matter. Don't go twisting it to make me look like a bigot. I have also posted things about the hypocrisies and systemic problems within the Catholic Church. That doesn't not make me a Christian basher. Also, I said nothing about the religion itself, i.e. tenants of the faith, etc. Although I will now: it is a religion (not the only one) that by its very nature, and yes it its teachings and practices, suppresses women. I am not cool with that as a woman.

Man, I really don't get you. You say I talk down to you, that I point out the obvious as if you're dumb, etc, but then you can't see that it's problematic to make a categorical claim like "The Muslim religion is wreaking havoc" or that the religion "suppresses women" or that the religion "is giving rise to many disturbing problems in the world."

How is it not obvious that you are bashing the religion itself, as opposed to radicals who abuse it? That you are painting a picture of Islam based ENTIRELY on the few radicals who exploit it? That you then justify this by quoting bullshit numbers of 20-30% of 300 MILLION people in the Arab world being 'extremist', without explaining what you even mean by it?

You're just running in circles here and dragging me along with you. It's really pointless to continue this discussion unless you have something new to add. More denial and justification is not going to draw me back in though.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

PJ_Soul wrote:

So the truth and talking about systemic problems within a faith is Islamic bashing? You can't seriously tell me that you think that Islam doesn't have problems, can you??? So it is the only religious group in the world outside of maybe Buddhism that doesn't present the world with problems?? FYI, simply saying things about problems within a faith and how they affect the world is not bashing IMO. It is looking at the truth of the matter. Don't go twisting it to make me look like a bigot. I have also posted things about the hypocrisies and systemic problems within the Catholic Church. That doesn't not make me a Christian basher. Also, I said nothing about the religion itself, i.e. tenants of the faith, etc. Although I will now: it is a religion (not the only one) that by its very nature, and yes it its teachings and practices, suppresses women. I am not cool with that as a woman.

well, actually, it IS a problem if you paint everyone within one group with the same brush, i.e: "it is a religion.....that...suppresses women". That would be no different than claiming all Christians are anti-gay based on how some Christians interpret their bible.

JimmyV

Maybe we should ask the survivors of the mall attack - you know, the point of the thread - whether or not there is Havoc being wrought by the Muslim faith?

Pointing out problems within a faith is not bashing that faith. That there are problems within the Muslim faith is, at this point, undeniable. Does that set it apart from other world religions? No. Do the actions of its many extremists? Yes.

PJ_Soul

fuck wrote:

Man, I really don't get you. You say I talk down to you, that I point out the obvious as if you're dumb, etc, but then you can't see that it's problematic to make a categorical claim like "The Muslim religion is wreaking havoc" or that the religion "suppresses women" or that the religion "is giving rise to many disturbing problems in the world."

How is it not obvious that you are bashing the religion itself, as opposed to radicals who abuse it? That you are painting a picture of Islam based ENTIRELY on the few radicals who exploit it? That you then justify this by quoting bullshit numbers of 20-30% of 300 MILLION people in the Arab world being 'extremist', without explaining what you even mean by it?

You're just running in circles here and dragging me along with you. It's really pointless to continue this discussion unless you have something new to add. More denial and justification is not going to draw me back in though.

I think anyone who claims that Islam does not suppress women is an idiot, or delusional, or in complete denial. It's a fact. I don't know why people like to avoid facts in the name of not wanting to offend people. And to ignore the suppression of women in order to try and not offend people is even more offensive. This fact is not exclusive to extremist Islam (although it's a lot WORSE among extremists, that's for sure).
If you want to call looking at a religion and calling out the problems within it bashing, then okay. I'm a basher of ALL religions, and you are in denial. Great.

fuck

JimmyV wrote:

Maybe we should ask the survivors of the mall attack - you know, the point of the thread - whether or not there is Havoc being wrought by the Muslim faith?

So surviving an attack by extremists makes you an expert on the Islamic faith? Weird logic.

Pointing out problems within a faith is not bashing that faith. That there are problems within the Muslim faith is, at this point, undeniable. Does that set it apart from other world religions? No. Do the actions of its many extremists? Yes.

Saying that the religion itself is what suppresses women is problematic. Saying it is the religion itself that causes violence is problematic. You are, again, letting the actions of an EXTREME minority shape your view of the religion of over a billion people. For people who sit here and complain about people in the Middle East hating America because the government drops bombs on their heads, you guys aren't doing much about your own prejudices.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

I think anyone who claims that Islam does not suppress women is an idiot, or delusional, or in complete denial.

Charming

It's a fact. I don't know why people like to avoid facts in the name of not wanting to offend people. And to ignore the suppression of women in order to try and not offend people is even more offensive. This fact is not exclusive to extremist Islam (although it's a lot WORSE among extremists, that's for sure).
If you want to call looking at a religion and calling out the problems within it bashing, then okay. I'm a basher of ALL religions, and you are in denial. Great.

Things can and should be critiqued. Making categorical claims with no evidence to support it is not a "fact," I'm sorry to say. I know it's convenient for you to run around and write 1-2 paragraph posts that simplify these issues and place the blame at the door of an entire religion, but the fact of the matter is that what you are saying is just untrue. You clearly have very little knowledge about Islam as a faith. You are basing your claims on practical examples from the Muslim world. But this is problematic for the tons of reasons I stated in my first post in this thread: you have to take into consideration so many different factors that contribute to things like violent groups rising, the suppression of women, etc., that simply saying "Islam is to blame" is just plain wrong. Not only that, but the claim itself actually has ZERO historical basis.

I don't think we should refrain from things just for the sake of not offending people, although my parents did teach me to respect others. I think we should refrain from categorically denouncing an entire religion because it's simply not constructive. I'm not trying to allow the suppression of women to continue, that's just plain nonsense. But the fact is that there are hundreds of millions of Muslim women who would not appreciate the way you speak of their religion--women who in fact establish their identity and their own freedom through the religion. They'd think your categorization of their religion as suppressing them is extremely simplistic and just not helpful for them. They'd want more constructive dialogue about how to stop the other factors (cultural, social, political, economic, foreign, etc.) from impeding on their ability to practice their religion freely and live in a free society. But it's much easier to ignore those things and just bash Islam from the comfort of our couches, isn't it?

JimmyV

fuck wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Maybe we should ask the survivors of the mall attack - you know, the point of the thread - whether or not there is Havoc being wrought by the Muslim faith?

So surviving an attack by extremists makes you an expert on the Islamic faith? Weird logic.

Pointing out problems within a faith is not bashing that faith. That there are problems within the Muslim faith is, at this point, undeniable. Does that set it apart from other world religions? No. Do the actions of its many extremists? Yes.

Saying that the religion itself is what suppresses women is problematic. Saying it is the religion itself that causes violence is problematic. You are, again, letting the actions of an EXTREME minority shape your view of the religion of over a billion people. For people who sit here and complain about people in the Middle East hating America because the government drops bombs on their heads, you guys aren't doing much about your own prejudices.

Oh please.

The survivors of the mall attack are unfortunately now very much experts on the Havoc being wrought by factions within the Muslim faith. That is not weird logic at all. What is weird is your continued denial that these problems exist. Child rape by priests within the Catholic faith is a problem within that faith. It is not a bash against that faith to say so. Much the same, mass murder carried out by militants within the Muslim faith is a problem within the Muslim faith.

Are you confusing me with someone else? You keep saying "you" and "your prejudices". No pun intended but what the fuck are you talking about? Where have I said anything you claim I have in that second paragraph?

fuck

JimmyV wrote:

fuck wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Maybe we should ask the survivors of the mall attack - you know, the point of the thread - whether or not there is Havoc being wrought by the Muslim faith?

So surviving an attack by extremists makes you an expert on the Islamic faith? Weird logic.

Pointing out problems within a faith is not bashing that faith. That there are problems within the Muslim faith is, at this point, undeniable. Does that set it apart from other world religions? No. Do the actions of its many extremists? Yes.

Saying that the religion itself is what suppresses women is problematic. Saying it is the religion itself that causes violence is problematic. You are, again, letting the actions of an EXTREME minority shape your view of the religion of over a billion people. For people who sit here and complain about people in the Middle East hating America because the government drops bombs on their heads, you guys aren't doing much about your own prejudices.

Oh please.

The survivors of the mall attack are unfortunately now very much experts on the Havoc being wrought by factions within the Muslim faith. That is not weird logic at all. What is weird is your continued denial that these problems exist. Child rape by priests within the Catholic faith is a problem within that faith. It is not a bash against that faith to say so. Much the same, mass murder carried out by militants within the Muslim faith is a problem within the Muslim faith.

Are you confusing me with someone else? You keep saying "you" and "your prejudices". No pun intended but what the fuck are you talking about? Where have I said anything you claim I have in that second paragraph?

I've not once denied that these problems exist. I've in fact talked about them extensively throughout this thread, but said that they exist for reasons far more complicated than the simplified "it's Islam's fault" that many here have been peddling.

To compare violence by Muslim groups to child rape by priests is absolutely absurd. We've already established in this thread (and I think even Pj_soul agreed, though it's not clear) that not even all Islamic groups have the same motivations. Yes, they define themselves as 'Islamic' but they also define themselves under national, cultural, ideological and other means. It's simply a way to distinguish themselves, get support, etc.

All I'm trying to suggest is we can't simply say these groups exist because of Islam. These groups exist for a huge number of other reasons. They choose to define themselves as Islamic. They cloak their motivations in Islamic rhetoric. But if we want to actually accuse the religion itself of promoting this behavior then we should at least engage the actual religious texts--and if you do you will find that this type of behavior is not only not promoted, but completely condemned! Which is why the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful.

If we want to really be constructive, we should study why these groups form, why they choose to carry out these horrible attacks, and what is truly the best way to stop them. Blaming it all on Islam is not constructive, and not even accurate.

EDIT: My ultimate point is we need to differentiate between groups, the actions they choose to take (some people in this thread called some groups extremist even though they are completely nonviolent), and the religion itself. It's dangerous to mix them and we need to be careful with the words we choose, but it seems like many in here feel comfortable throwing around very general claims, like accusing Islam of doing x and y.

And I'll apologize for saying "you" in that post. I meant it as a general "you," not specifically targeting you, but should have been more careful with that.

PJ_Soul

fuck wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Maybe we should ask the survivors of the mall attack - you know, the point of the thread - whether or not there is Havoc being wrought by the Muslim faith?

So surviving an attack by extremists makes you an expert on the Islamic faith? Weird logic.

Pointing out problems within a faith is not bashing that faith. That there are problems within the Muslim faith is, at this point, undeniable. Does that set it apart from other world religions? No. Do the actions of its many extremists? Yes.

Saying that the religion itself is what suppresses women is problematic. Saying it is the religion itself that causes violence is problematic. You are, again, letting the actions of an EXTREME minority shape your view of the religion of over a billion people. For people who sit here and complain about people in the Middle East hating America because the government drops bombs on their heads, you guys aren't doing much about your own prejudices.

I am not letting the actions of a minority (not nearly as small as minority as you seem to think, not even close) shape my view of over a billion people at all. I fully understand the differences between extremists and moderates. Completely. Islamic extremists take a lot of things and make them way WAY worse in many cases, but that doesn't necessarily mean that such problems are non-existent among moderates (I do NOT mean killing people in the name of Islam). The most bothersome of these problems is the fact that the Muslim faith is one that suppresses women. I know that extremists take it to a whole other level. But that does not mean that moderates don't also suffer from this terrible aspect of their faith. All you have to do is go to a mosque and see that the women are separated from the men during prayer to know that it is a religion that suppresses women, and understand the role that women are expected to have in traditional Muslim families, and see how the sons of traditional Muslim families are treated compared to the daughters, and what the expectations are of each. And it is a thing that people, including progressive Muslims, should be encouraged to CHANGE, not something that people should try to deny, since denial will lead to NO change for the better in this aspect. Luckily, some of the other faiths that have also suffered from this problem have progressed further than Islam has in this regard. Time for Islam to catch up to them... but they aren't going to get any closer with people like you trying to convince people that it isn't a problem in the Muslim faith.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

I am not letting the actions of a minority (not nearly as small as minority as you seem to think, not even close) shape my view of over a billion people at all.

Right, it's 20-30% (so says, your ass).

I fully understand the differences between extremists and moderates. Completely. Islamic extremists take a lot of things and make them way WAY worse in many cases, but that doesn't necessarily mean that such problems are non-existent among moderates (I do NOT mean killing people in the name of Islam). The most bothersome of these problems is the fact that the Muslim faith is one that suppresses women. I know that extremists take it to a whole other level. But that does not mean that moderates don't also suffer from this terrible aspect of their faith. All you have to do is go to a mosque and see that the women are separated from the men during prayer to know that it is a religion that suppresses women, and understand the role that women are expected to have in traditional Muslim families, and see how the sons of traditional Muslim families are treated compared to the daughters, and what the expectations are of each. And it is a thing that people, including progressive Muslims, should be encouraged to CHANGE, not something that people should try to deny, since denial will lead to NO change for the better in this aspect. Luckily, some of the other faiths that have also suffered from this problem have progressed further than Islam has in this regard. Time for Islam to catch up to them... but they aren't going to get any closer with people like you trying to convince people that it isn't a problem in the Muslim faith.

What? So because they pray in separate rooms, it means women are suppressed? So because I can't take a shit right next to a woman in a public bathroom, our society is not progressive? Lol. I think this clearly shows that you have no clue what you're talking about. The problem of 'traditional ways' of looking at daughters vs sons is not a religious problem, again, it is because of a number of different factors, most especially culture. Again, you're just sidestepping what the causes of these problems are and simplifying everything. Muslim women themselves would not appreciate the way you talk, or find it constructive. It's not about denying anything, it's about trying to be constructive in finding what actually causes these problems so that we can solve them. The religious texts are very clear about women being equal to men and having equal opportunities. It's true that for centuries religious scholarship has had misogyny as a motivating factor for many scholars, who sought to keep men in control (just like everywhere, ever), but the religious texts themselves are very emphatic about the role of women. It is people who want to make sure Islam is respected and kept in its right place (as a social justice movement) who can lead this fight. Not people like you who make simplistic claims and ignore what the majority of Muslims themselves think or believe.

mickeyrat

PJ_Soul wrote:

fuck wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Maybe we should ask the survivors of the mall attack - you know, the point of the thread - whether or not there is Havoc being wrought by the Muslim faith?

So surviving an attack by extremists makes you an expert on the Islamic faith? Weird logic.

Pointing out problems within a faith is not bashing that faith. That there are problems within the Muslim faith is, at this point, undeniable. Does that set it apart from other world religions? No. Do the actions of its many extremists? Yes.

Saying that the religion itself is what suppresses women is problematic. Saying it is the religion itself that causes violence is problematic. You are, again, letting the actions of an EXTREME minority shape your view of the religion of over a billion people. For people who sit here and complain about people in the Middle East hating America because the government drops bombs on their heads, you guys aren't doing much about your own prejudices.

I am not letting the actions of a minority (not nearly as small as minority as you seem to think, not even close) shape my view of over a billion people at all. I fully understand the differences between extremists and moderates. Completely. Islamic extremists take a lot of things and make them way WAY worse in many cases, but that doesn't necessarily mean that such problems are non-existent among moderates (I do NOT mean killing people in the name of Islam). The most bothersome of these problems is the fact that the Muslim faith is one that suppresses women. I know that extremists take it to a whole other level. But that does not mean that moderates don't also suffer from this terrible aspect of their faith. All you have to do is go to a mosque and see that the women are separated from the men during prayer to know that it is a religion that suppresses women, and understand the role that women are expected to have in traditional Muslim families, and see how the sons of traditional Muslim families are treated compared to the daughters, and what the expectations are of each. And it is a thing that people, including progressive Muslims, should be encouraged to CHANGE, not something that people should try to deny, since denial will lead to NO change for the better in this aspect. Luckily, some of the other faiths that have also suffered from this problem have progressed further than Islam has in this regard. Time for Islam to catch up to them... but they aren't going to get any closer with people like you trying to convince people that it isn't a problem in the Muslim faith.

sure wouldnt find anything like the seperation you suggest in any other religion. Nope, not even some sects of Judaism.
or no woman catholic priests , but nuns only, subservient to the priest class. is that expressly in the bible? ohhh , must have been cultural or OR written that way BY the ruling class to continue to be in power.


Frankly no one religion is inherently bad. Its the people in them that are the fucking problem.

Add a human and shit gets fucked up. Goddamned cancer , we are.

PJ_Soul

fuck wrote:

I've not once denied that these problems exist. I've in fact talked about them extensively throughout this thread, but said that they exist for reasons far more complicated than the simplified "it's Islam's fault" that many here have been peddling.

To compare violence by Muslim groups to child rape by priests is absolutely absurd. We've already established in this thread (and I think even Pj_soul agreed, though it's not clear) that not even all Islamic groups have the same motivations. Yes, they define themselves as 'Islamic' but they also define themselves under national, cultural, ideological and other means. It's simply a way to distinguish themselves, get support, etc.

All I'm trying to suggest is we can't simply say these groups exist because of Islam. These groups exist for a huge number of other reasons. They choose to define themselves as Islamic. They cloak their motivations in Islamic rhetoric. But if we want to actually accuse the religion itself of promoting this behavior then we should at least engage the actual religious texts--and if you do you will find that this type of behavior is not only not promoted, but completely condemned! Which is why the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful.

If we want to really be constructive, we should study why these groups form, why they choose to carry out these horrible attacks, and what is truly the best way to stop them. Blaming it all on Islam is not constructive, and not even accurate.

EDIT: My ultimate point is we need to differentiate between groups, the actions they choose to take (some people in this thread called some groups extremist even though they are completely nonviolent), and the religion itself. It's dangerous to mix them and we need to be careful with the words we choose, but it seems like many in here feel comfortable throwing around very general claims, like accusing Islam of doing x and y.

And I'll apologize for saying "you" in that post. I meant it as a general "you," not specifically targeting you, but should have been more careful with that.

(ugh, I hate these quotes within quotes - fucks up the whole thing for me )

Well FYI, I do differentiate between groups, and I was disturbed that you kept suggesting that I don't, because that was just an assumption on your part, and not something I ever suggested myself. I think it takes a real moron to NOT differentiate between groups, which is why I find the accusation insulting.
But I would like to point out that one does not have to be violent to be an extremist. For instance, many people who practice Sharia Law are not violent, but I would definitely classify them as extremist (like the Muslim counterpart to strict fundamentalist Christians - also extremists IMO, and threat to the health of the society in which they live).

JimmyV

fuck wrote:

I've not once denied that these problems exist. I've in fact talked about them extensively throughout this thread, but said that they exist for reasons far more complicated than the simplified "it's Islam's fault" that many here have been peddling.

To compare violence by Muslim groups to child rape by priests is absolutely absurd. We've already established in this thread (and I think even Pj_soul agreed, though it's not clear) that not even all Islamic groups have the same motivations. Yes, they define themselves as 'Islamic' but they also define themselves under national, cultural, ideological and other means. It's simply a way to distinguish themselves, get support, etc.

All I'm trying to suggest is we can't simply say these groups exist because of Islam. These groups exist for a huge number of other reasons. They choose to define themselves as Islamic. They cloak their motivations in Islamic rhetoric. But if we want to actually accuse the religion itself of promoting this behavior then we should at least engage the actual religious texts--and if you do you will find that this type of behavior is not only not promoted, but completely condemned! Which is why the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful.

If we want to really be constructive, we should study why these groups form, why they choose to carry out these horrible attacks, and what is truly the best way to stop them. Blaming it all on Islam is not constructive, and not even accurate.

EDIT: My ultimate point is we need to differentiate between groups, the actions they choose to take (some people in this thread called some groups extremist even though they are completely nonviolent), and the religion itself. It's dangerous to mix them and we need to be careful with the words we choose, but it seems like many in here feel comfortable throwing around very general claims, like accusing Islam of doing x and y.

And I'll apologize for saying "you" in that post. I meant it as a general "you," not specifically targeting you, but should have been more careful with that.

Apology accepted.

I don't necessarily disagree with your ultimate point, but we cannot completely disassociate these atrocities and the men committing them from the faith in whose name they act. Islam is a big house and these monsters are living and acting within it. That needs to be remembered. If Christians were storming shopping malls or posting beheadings on YouTube I would be saying the same thing.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

Well FYI, I do differentiate between groups, and I was disturbed that you kept suggesting that I don't, because that was just an assumption on your part, and not something I ever suggested myself. I think it takes a real moron to NOT differentiate between groups, which is why I find the accusation insulting.
But I would like to point out that one does not have to be violent to be an extremist. For instance, many people who practice Sharia Law are not violent, but I would definitely classify them as extremist (like the Muslim counterpart to strict fundamentalist Christians - also extremists IMO, and threat to the health of the society in which they live).

I wasn't suggesting you don't differentiate between groups, at least not exactly. It was that you simply wrote that 20-30% of the Middle East was extremist, and suggesting they were all equally one big threat--effectively dumping them all in one big "Islamic extremist" basket.

The fact that you talk about "practicing Sharia Law" in this way shows how little you understand about Islam. No offense, but it's true. Sharia is such a huuuge term that describes not just legal rulings, but ethics. A Muslim who picks up a piece of trash off the ground and puts it in the dumpster is practicing the shariah. A Muslim who prays is practicing the Shariah. A Muslim who goes to feed a homeless person once a week is practicing the shariah. What you're probably referring to, the shariah code of punishments, is such a small part of the shariah, it was overlooked for centuries of discussion as a complete theoretical concept: the shariah defines things like capital punishment so unbelievably strictly that it's virtually impossible to prove and punish! This was done on purpose. It is set as a moral limit, but it does not mean it is meant to be instituted the way many of these insane autocratic regimes in the Middle East do.

For this I'd recommend you read this book by Rudolph Peters: http://www.amazon.com/Crime-Punishment- ... punishment

In fact, when the British went to India in the late 18th century, the general (I forget his name) was actually shocked by how lax Islamic law was. He thought it was letting too many people off the hook and wasn't strict enough. It was, interestingly enough, the British who then imposed Draconian legal statutes in the Islamic society in India! Contrast that with today's stereotype of Islam being "barbaric." It's the same thing with women. In medieval European societies, women in the 'orient' were seen as being so sexual, too free, the Islamic world a land of lust and immodesty. Then when women were given more freedom in the West through liberalism, the stereotype reversed: women are not suppressed in Islamic lands. It's just interesting how Islam always has to be 'the other' for the West. For this I'd recommend you read Wael Hallaq's book on Shariah or Karen Armstrong's book on the Crusades.

Ultimately, there is tons of corruption in Islamic scholarship, there is corruption in governance, there's corruption in everything. But to say that the religion itself is inherently bad and promotes these awful things is misguided, and reflects a poor understanding of the original texts.

fuck

JimmyV wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree with your ultimate point, but we cannot completely disassociate these atrocities and the men committing them from the faith in whose name they act. Islam is a big house and these monsters are living and acting within it. That needs to be remembered. If Christians were storming shopping malls or posting beheadings on YouTube I would be saying the same thing.

We can't lay the blame at Islam's feet unless we engage the actual texts to see if it truly promotes that. If Christians were living under foreign occupation and suffered through centuries of colonialism, and are still being exploited and oppressed not just by foreign invaders but by autocratic rulers who oppress them and monopolize their religion, leading very few numbers of them worldwide to form fringe groups that commit crimes: I would also be saying the same thing, that we cannot say Christianity is the problem. We should analyze the context in which these groups were founded. Yes, they choose to define themselves as religious for obvious examples, but their motivations are clearly political. There's a reason they usually come from either poor countries or from countries that have foreign occupiers or horrible autocratic rulers... there's a reason they look at other religions in a certain way (due to the divisions imposed on them during colonial rule)... etc. We can't simply say the religion promotes it when 99.9999% of the people of that religion aren't running around shooting up shopping malls. It's not constructive. Especially when people try and say "more moderate Muslims need to speak up to stop this!" only to say a short moment later that Islam itself is inherently problematic...