There is no god

Walking the miles

rgambs said:

Walking the miles said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I don't think we humans can understand God.

That is an entirely unproductive line of thought. Like saying, we humans can't understand particle physics or neurology, so why bother getting serious about it.

I'm sorry but I didn't mean that we can't understand God at all. I think God is very present everywhere and we can communicate with him anytime with our thoughts, like a best friend.
But I accept that there are things that I as a human can't fully understand about God's plan for everything.

That God has a plan for everything is a scary thought. That means God plans for children to get raped, for women to be kept in Castro torture basements, for men, women, and children to lead entire lives of physical and emotion pain.

God with his love, gave us all free will. There is no true love, without free will.

That's fine, but that's not a plan for everything. That's a roll of the dice and let's see what they do.

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
(Understand that I'm attempting not to sound like I'm stating fact, although it might seem so, because it is only my belief, these are things that we just don't know for sure. This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid

If God actually existed... I highly doubt he has just sat there for the last 10-20 centuries or so and watched his beloved creation implode from within.

The small scale items like rape and murder are one thing, but large scale corruption within the church, witch hunts, wars and genocides (among a multitude of others) are quite another- let alone the havoc humans have unleashed on the environment (animals and planet).

He was real 'hands on' when the good book was written... and now he's supposedly just been kicking back and watching the Earth turn to shit- letting Satan weave his magic?

It might be just me... but I'm thinking if God existed... he'd have floated down from one of those clouds by now and said, "Geez guys. C'mon, man. We went through this centuries ago. Stop messing with each other and be nice... or I'll unleash a nasty flood or something."

Further... isn't it just like humans to assume we are God's greatest creation. Are we positive it wasn't whales or lions that God really loves the most? We're just another animal doing our thing until we pass- that's not such a bad thing you know!

JWPearl

Walking the miles said:

rgambs said:

Walking the miles said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I don't think we humans can understand God.

That is an entirely unproductive line of thought. Like saying, we humans can't understand particle physics or neurology, so why bother getting serious about it.

I'm sorry but I didn't mean that we can't understand God at all. I think God is very present everywhere and we can communicate with him anytime with our thoughts, like a best friend.
But I accept that there are things that I as a human can't fully understand about God's plan for everything.

That God has a plan for everything is a scary thought. That means God plans for children to get raped, for women to be kept in Castro torture basements, for men, women, and children to lead entire lives of physical and emotion pain.

God with his love, gave us all free will. There is no true love, without free will.

That's fine, but that's not a plan for everything. That's a roll of the dice and let's see what they do.

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
(Understand that I'm attempting not to sound like I'm stating fact, although it might seem so, because it is only my belief, these are things that we just don't know for sure. This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Well said my friend, this is putting trust love and obedience in your maker...

hedonist

rgambs said:

In case you don't know, the proper way to love someone is without conditions, without threats, and without reward.

gambs, I so agree with this - and it has nothing to do with beliefs or non-beliefs or anything in between.

When I got to know and love my husband, it was for who HE is, nothing to do with reciprocation or as you said, reward.

lolobugg

"if there is a god, I know SHE likes to rock. she likes the loud guitars and the Spiders From Mars."

rgambs

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

In case you don't know, the proper way to love someone is without conditions, without threats, and without reward.

gambs, I so agree with this - and it has nothing to do with beliefs or non-beliefs or anything in between.

When I got to know and love my husband, it was for who HE is, nothing to do with reciprocation or as you said, reward.

Yeah reciprocation is the word I failed to find on the fly, but it's the right one. I guess "need for reciprocation" is even better, because it is nice to be loved back and deepens the love. If you are into words you should read that Browning poem I linked...then again, if you are into words (even for those who are, Romantic poetry isn't most people's cup of tea lol) you don't need my prompting lol

Walking the miles

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If God actually existed... I highly doubt he has just sat there for the last 10-20 centuries or so and watched his beloved creation implode from within.

The small scale items like rape and murder are one thing, but large scale corruption within the church, witch hunts, wars and genocides (among a multitude of others) are quite another- let alone the havoc humans have unleashed on the environment (animals and planet).

He was real 'hands on' when the good book was written... and now he's supposedly just been kicking back and watching the Earth turn to shit- letting Satan weave his magic?

It might be just me... but I'm thinking if God existed... he'd have floated down from one of those clouds by now and said, "Geez guys. C'mon, man. We went through this centuries ago. Stop messing with each other and be nice... or I'll unleash a nasty flood or something."

Further... isn't it just like humans to assume we are God's greatest creation. Are we positive it wasn't whales or lions that God really loves the most? We're just another animal doing our thing until we pass- that's not such a bad thing you know!

He first laid down rules, then corrected his people, then set example(s) to follow, and then yes allows Satan his time.

JWPearl

Walking the miles said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If God actually existed... I highly doubt he has just sat there for the last 10-20 centuries or so and watched his beloved creation implode from within.

The small scale items like rape and murder are one thing, but large scale corruption within the church, witch hunts, wars and genocides (among a multitude of others) are quite another- let alone the havoc humans have unleashed on the environment (animals and planet).

He was real 'hands on' when the good book was written... and now he's supposedly just been kicking back and watching the Earth turn to shit- letting Satan weave his magic?

It might be just me... but I'm thinking if God existed... he'd have floated down from one of those clouds by now and said, "Geez guys. C'mon, man. We went through this centuries ago. Stop messing with each other and be nice... or I'll unleash a nasty flood or something."

Further... isn't it just like humans to assume we are God's greatest creation. Are we positive it wasn't whales or lions that God really loves the most? We're just another animal doing our thing until we pass- that's not such a bad thing you know!

He first laid down rules, then corrected his people, then set example(s) to follow, and then yes allows Satan his time.

To prove to other authorities (angels) that only he is the best ruler

rgambs

JWPearl said:

Walking the miles said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If God actually existed... I highly doubt he has just sat there for the last 10-20 centuries or so and watched his beloved creation implode from within.

The small scale items like rape and murder are one thing, but large scale corruption within the church, witch hunts, wars and genocides (among a multitude of others) are quite another- let alone the havoc humans have unleashed on the environment (animals and planet).

He was real 'hands on' when the good book was written... and now he's supposedly just been kicking back and watching the Earth turn to shit- letting Satan weave his magic?

It might be just me... but I'm thinking if God existed... he'd have floated down from one of those clouds by now and said, "Geez guys. C'mon, man. We went through this centuries ago. Stop messing with each other and be nice... or I'll unleash a nasty flood or something."

Further... isn't it just like humans to assume we are God's greatest creation. Are we positive it wasn't whales or lions that God really loves the most? We're just another animal doing our thing until we pass- that's not such a bad thing you know!

He first laid down rules, then corrected his people, then set example(s) to follow, and then yes allows Satan his time.

To prove to other authorities (angels) that only he is the best ruler

"Watch this fellas, I can turn these poor fools over to the devil, and prove I am better than him. So you better listen to me 'cuz I am the best."

Meanwhile, on Earth, there is genocide and rape and torture and starvation and pain. But who cares about that, God is winning his bet with the angels!

Walking the miles

lolobugg said:

"if there is a god, I know SHE likes to rock. she likes the loud guitars and the Spiders From Mars."

He/She is certainly interchangeable, as God, I believe, is neither. I just prefer not to use the word "it" or overuse the word God as it sounds too preachy. So historical "He" works for me, but really just semantics.

JWPearl

rgambs said:

JWPearl said:

Walking the miles said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If God actually existed... I highly doubt he has just sat there for the last 10-20 centuries or so and watched his beloved creation implode from within.

The small scale items like rape and murder are one thing, but large scale corruption within the church, witch hunts, wars and genocides (among a multitude of others) are quite another- let alone the havoc humans have unleashed on the environment (animals and planet).

He was real 'hands on' when the good book was written... and now he's supposedly just been kicking back and watching the Earth turn to shit- letting Satan weave his magic?

It might be just me... but I'm thinking if God existed... he'd have floated down from one of those clouds by now and said, "Geez guys. C'mon, man. We went through this centuries ago. Stop messing with each other and be nice... or I'll unleash a nasty flood or something."

Further... isn't it just like humans to assume we are God's greatest creation. Are we positive it wasn't whales or lions that God really loves the most? We're just another animal doing our thing until we pass- that's not such a bad thing you know!

He first laid down rules, then corrected his people, then set example(s) to follow, and then yes allows Satan his time.

To prove to other authorities (angels) that only he is the best ruler

"Watch this fellas, I can turn these poor fools over to the devil, and prove I am better than him. So you better listen to me 'cuz I am the best."

Meanwhile, on Earth, there is genocide and rape and torture and starvation and pain. But who cares about that, God is winning his bet with the angels!

so it never has to happen again once you see what he's going to do to the demons, free will eh

badbrains

lolobugg said:

"if there is a god, I know SHE likes to rock. she likes the loud guitars and the Spiders From Mars."

Shut up Logan, I know you're lucifers #1 fan! >:)

JWPearl

Walking the miles said:

lolobugg said:

"if there is a god, I know SHE likes to rock. she likes the loud guitars and the Spiders From Mars."

He/She is certainly interchangeable, as God, I believe, is neither. I just prefer not to use the word "it" or overuse the word God as it sounds too preachy. So historical "He" works for me, but really just semantics.

Ditto but the bible does say he, and God created man in his image, the woman was from man as a compliment...

brianlux

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

JWPearl

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

surely Brian if you can believe in magic you can believe in miracles?

rgambs

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

The Mormons can be heard joking from time to time that "if the Bible were made directly into a movie, we wouldn't be allowed to watch it" lol

To your post, taking it as metaphor is good in my opinion, but some folks don't want the consequence, which is opening yourself up to a wider canon of spiritual works. It would be great business for you lol if more people were interested in seeking out the great writers on spirituality and morality.

lolobugg

badbrains said:

lolobugg said:

"if there is a god, I know SHE likes to rock. she likes the loud guitars and the Spiders From Mars."

Shut up Logan, I know you're lucifers #1 fan! >:)

that's my boy > >:)

riotgrl

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

I really like the ideas put forth by Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth. It seems like there are universal ways that previous groups/civilizations have used to explain things they couldn't understand. Most religions and philosophies have several things in common like a "hero" and metaphors and ways to get to heaven, achieve Nirvana and the like. I think for early people this made total sense but with our advances in science I have a hard time understanding the continued appeal of religion.

I've never been able to reconcile my Christian background with what I know about history. At the most simplistic level, recorded history begins about 10,000 years ago while the Abrahamic faiths began about 5,000 years ago. How do Christians explain that 5,000 year gap when men were around but clearly Christianity/Judaism weren't part of the equation? No one's ever answered that for me, just gotten the stock answer of taking it on faith.

brianlux

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

I really like the ideas put forth by Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth. It seems like there are universal ways that previous groups/civilizations have used to explain things they couldn't understand. Most religions and philosophies have several things in common like a "hero" and metaphors and ways to get to heaven, achieve Nirvana and the like. I think for early people this made total sense but with our advances in science I have a hard time understanding the continued appeal of religion.

I've never been able to reconcile my Christian background with what I know about history. At the most simplistic level, recorded history begins about 10,000 years ago while the Abrahamic faiths began about 5,000 years ago. How do Christians explain that 5,000 year gap when men were around but clearly Christianity/Judaism weren't part of the equation? No one's ever answered that for me, just gotten the stock answer of taking it on faith.

Magical thinking. (AKA, denial) :-)

lolobugg

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

I really like the ideas put forth by Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth. It seems like there are universal ways that previous groups/civilizations have used to explain things they couldn't understand. Most religions and philosophies have several things in common like a "hero" and metaphors and ways to get to heaven, achieve Nirvana and the like. I think for early people this made total sense but with our advances in science I have a hard time understanding the continued appeal of religion.

I've never been able to reconcile my Christian background with what I know about history. At the most simplistic level, recorded history begins about 10,000 years ago while the Abrahamic faiths began about 5,000 years ago. How do Christians explain that 5,000 year gap when men were around but clearly Christianity/Judaism weren't part of the equation? No one's ever answered that for me, just gotten the stock answer of taking it on faith.

Magical thinking. (AKA, denial) :-)

everyone knows that man and the dinosaurs co-existed.... right, right, right??? hello????