There is no god

brianlux

lolobugg said:

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

I really like the ideas put forth by Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth. It seems like there are universal ways that previous groups/civilizations have used to explain things they couldn't understand. Most religions and philosophies have several things in common like a "hero" and metaphors and ways to get to heaven, achieve Nirvana and the like. I think for early people this made total sense but with our advances in science I have a hard time understanding the continued appeal of religion.

I've never been able to reconcile my Christian background with what I know about history. At the most simplistic level, recorded history begins about 10,000 years ago while the Abrahamic faiths began about 5,000 years ago. How do Christians explain that 5,000 year gap when men were around but clearly Christianity/Judaism weren't part of the equation? No one's ever answered that for me, just gotten the stock answer of taking it on faith.

Magical thinking. (AKA, denial) :-)

everyone knows that man and the dinosaurs co-existed.... right, right, right??? hello????

Hahaha! Right!! Last time I heard that one, I fell off my flying pterodactyl!

badbrains

lolobugg said:

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

Some interesting discussion on the old testament a while back yet I'm surprised to see no one mention that so much of what are in those books are metaphors, tales and mythology, not fact. Earth created in seven days, man created from mud, woman from mud man's rib, whale swallows man who is later puked up and lives, man build boat to carry two of each species (making sure not to miss any pair of the millions of insects, microbes, echinoderms, etc), Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walking around in a fiery furnace heated seven times the normal amount used to in executions, Lot's wife checking out Sodom and Gomorrah turned into pillar of salt, Red Sea parts allowing army to walk through it . If the Bible is God's word, I'm thinking God is one of Hollywood's best sci fi/ fantasy script writers.

I really like the ideas put forth by Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth. It seems like there are universal ways that previous groups/civilizations have used to explain things they couldn't understand. Most religions and philosophies have several things in common like a "hero" and metaphors and ways to get to heaven, achieve Nirvana and the like. I think for early people this made total sense but with our advances in science I have a hard time understanding the continued appeal of religion.

I've never been able to reconcile my Christian background with what I know about history. At the most simplistic level, recorded history begins about 10,000 years ago while the Abrahamic faiths began about 5,000 years ago. How do Christians explain that 5,000 year gap when men were around but clearly Christianity/Judaism weren't part of the equation? No one's ever answered that for me, just gotten the stock answer of taking it on faith.

Magical thinking. (AKA, denial) :-)

everyone knows that man and the dinosaurs co-existed.... right, right, right??? hello????

Hell ya, even saw the movie caveman with ringo star!

PJfanwillneverleave1

I like this whole vid especially when he states about a geographer and a flat earther
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvmnxn_dawkins-answers-why-he-refuses-to-debate-creationists_news

PJfanwillneverleave1

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

I like this whole vid especially when he states about a geographer and a flat earther
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvmnxn_dawkins-answers-why-he-refuses-to-debate-creationists_news

Oh yeah, I forgot this one too
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgjlcg_richard-dawkins-explains-darwinian-selection-of-universes_news

23scidoo

Ι'm not a descendant of any Jewish magician or rapιst..the world don't created at 3.500 years B.C...the man don't came by mud..all the historical backround of Bible its stolen..i can't believe in a relegion who claim that had the truth, and in the same time, has a lot of ramifications..
the greek wod for Zeus, its Dias(Διας)..the greek word for Satan, its Diavolos(Διαβολος)..can you see the similarity???..the greek word Diavolos, its mean ''slander''..

rgambs

23scidoo said:

Ι'm not a descendant of any Jewish magician or rapιst..the world don't created at 3.500 years B.C...the man don't came by mud..all the historical backround of Bible its stolen..i can't believe in a relegion who claim that had the truth, and in the same time, has a lot of ramifications..
the greek wod for Zeus, its Dias(Διας)..the greek word for Satan, its Diavolos(Διαβολος)..can you see the similarity???..the greek word Diavolos, its mean ''slander''..

Yeah it's cobbled together from the older traditions. Jesus is just the Hebrew version of Horus, etc etc...

Walking the miles said:

rgambs said:

Walking the miles said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I don't think we humans can understand God.

That is an entirely unproductive line of thought. Like saying, we humans can't understand particle physics or neurology, so why bother getting serious about it.

I'm sorry but I didn't mean that we can't understand God at all. I think God is very present everywhere and we can communicate with him anytime with our thoughts, like a best friend.
But I accept that there are things that I as a human can't fully understand about God's plan for everything.

That God has a plan for everything is a scary thought. That means God plans for children to get raped, for women to be kept in Castro torture basements, for men, women, and children to lead entire lives of physical and emotion pain.

God with his love, gave us all free will. There is no true love, without free will.

That's fine, but that's not a plan for everything. That's a roll of the dice and let's see what they do.

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
(Understand that I'm attempting not to sound like I'm stating fact, although it might seem so, because it is only my belief, these are things that we just don't know for sure. This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Doesn't this constitute a sin of omission? To know that massive, ridiculous amounts of suffering will befall the innocent and to allow it, when you have the power to bring it to an end? This idea doesn't absolve him of guilt at all for me.

rgambs

JWPearl said:

rgambs said:

JWPearl said:

Walking the miles said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If God actually existed... I highly doubt he has just sat there for the last 10-20 centuries or so and watched his beloved creation implode from within.

The small scale items like rape and murder are one thing, but large scale corruption within the church, witch hunts, wars and genocides (among a multitude of others) are quite another- let alone the havoc humans have unleashed on the environment (animals and planet).

He was real 'hands on' when the good book was written... and now he's supposedly just been kicking back and watching the Earth turn to shit- letting Satan weave his magic?

It might be just me... but I'm thinking if God existed... he'd have floated down from one of those clouds by now and said, "Geez guys. C'mon, man. We went through this centuries ago. Stop messing with each other and be nice... or I'll unleash a nasty flood or something."

Further... isn't it just like humans to assume we are God's greatest creation. Are we positive it wasn't whales or lions that God really loves the most? We're just another animal doing our thing until we pass- that's not such a bad thing you know!

He first laid down rules, then corrected his people, then set example(s) to follow, and then yes allows Satan his time.

To prove to other authorities (angels) that only he is the best ruler

"Watch this fellas, I can turn these poor fools over to the devil, and prove I am better than him. So you better listen to me 'cuz I am the best."

Meanwhile, on Earth, there is genocide and rape and torture and starvation and pain. But who cares about that, God is winning his bet with the angels!

so it never has to happen again once you see what he's going to do to the demons, free will eh

You continually miss the point in clinging to the fables handed down instead of looking at it critically. "So it never has to happen again"
Why does it need to happen in the first place? So he can prove how great he is? Wouldn't peace and love and the absence of suffering be a much better proof of greatness than subjecting your subjects to abject misery so that you can take it away and say "look what I can do"?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.

Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.

It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.

What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).

PJfanwillneverleave1

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.

Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.

It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.

What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).

Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.

Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.

It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.

What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).

Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?

Absolutely.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I'm not sure what's going on with the quote feature, but my previous post looks like I asked a question and answered it.

To save confusion on anyone's part: PJfanwillnever... asked the question- to which I responded, "absolutely."

brianlux

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

.

That dot is one of the most unique representations of God I have yet seen. Very deep!

JWPearl

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.

Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.

It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.

What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).

Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?

faith is like blind trust and belief in love and where you find it in yourself, you have to believe God is love and "does not accept bribes" "and is a fair and a just God" and he is not partial "but pleases those who are abiding by "his laws" and "forgiving those who sincerely repent" and that all children are "treated equal and judged differently according to their actions" bc he sees more in an individual than what we can see bc he "reads the heart and mind" and can see "black or white", as for we really can't do that and we are imperfect, but the love we find in ourselves is contributed to faith and belief in that God is love and exist due to intelligence and perception

JWPearl

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.

Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.

It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.

What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).

Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?

faith is like blind trust and belief in love and where you find it in yourself, you have to believe God is love and "does not accept bribes" "and is a fair and a just God" and he is not partial "but pleases those who are abiding by "his laws" and "forgiving those who sincerely repent" and that all children are "treated equal and judged differently according to their actions" bc he sees more in an individual than what we can see bc he "reads the heart and mind" and can see "black or white", as for we really can't do that and we are imperfect, but the love we find in ourselves is contributed to faith and belief in that God is love and exist due to intelligence and perception

brianlux

I just thought of something I hadn't considered for quite some time. While writing my new book about my experiences with music and musicians, I was jotting down notes for a section about seeing the Violent Femmes at a punk club in San Jose in the 80's. That was a wild night. The band came on very late and the crowd was borderline viscous. Once the band started up, everyone was having a great time until half way through the show singer/guitarist Gordon Gano announced he wanted to slow things down for just a few minutes and he went into a folk-style hymn that was simply wonderful. I loved their punk stuff but this was equally great- one of my favorite numbers that night. Gano was rewarded for his efforts by a lot of verbal abuse and booing. What a bunch of losers these punks were, I thought. As it turns out, Gano is a devout Christian and bassist Brian Ritchie and drummer Victor DeLorenzo are both atheists and yet these guys were able to accept their differing opinions and create some great music. Not a bad example there. Something to ponder.

hedonist

Maybe because those who are devout on either end (or just on the fence) don't bring it into everything? Not sure what I'd call it - humility, modesty? Keeping the personal personal?

I've read that Alice Cooper is religious, and Ozzy prays before performing.

I guess I just like how in daily life (and not necessarily here - I get we have topics specific to the subject and I value those threads and their participants), the person / their character and actions are how we form our views of them...of ourselves as well.

brianlux

Well said, H. Yeah, modesty (such a much maligned and often turned upside down concept) can make for a lot of tolerance (another over-used word). Where's my thesaurus, LOL. :-)

Thirty Bills Unpaid

brianlux said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

.

That dot is one of the most unique representations of God I have yet seen. Very deep!

I thought I'd really heavy out on you guys.

brianlux

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

brianlux said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

.

That dot is one of the most unique representations of God I have yet seen. Very deep!

I thought I'd really heavy out on you guys.

You blew our minds! I mean, I thought
∞
was heavy but
.
whoa! Too much!