confederate flag: offensive or historical?

redrock

riotgrl wrote:

Yes, I enjoyed it as well. He made excellent points about why people in the south would have fought the Civil War and supported secession. However, all his points explained why they supported slavery, for religious, political, or economic reasons and in no way does this excuse someone from today for supporting the use of this flag for personal reaons. I am a lifelong resident of the south. I have family members who also believe this flag represents their southern pride. They also insist they are not racist and are not supporting the racist ideology of this war. However, they are indeed racist and do not realize that the pervasive attitudes of many within the south, especially the deep south, are racist.

Agree.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

I enjoyed reading this historian ...

http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... lding.html

Yes, I enjoyed it as well. He made excellent points about why people in the south would have fought the Civil War and supported secession. However, all his points explained why they supported slavery, for religious, political, or economic reasons and in no way does this excuse someone from today for supporting the use of this flag for personal reaons. I am a lifelong resident of the south. I have family members who also believe this flag represents their southern pride. They also insist they are not racist and are not supporting the racist ideology of this war. However, they are indeed racist and do not realize that the pervasive attitudes of many within the south, especially the deep south, are racist.

I thought I was to ignore you... can I reply?

yes I know what he wrote was about and yes it was not to support how I feel it was to
bring a light to those who read about the times and what some Southerners faced.

You know racists, this is your life experiences, negative from what we can read.
But hopefully you realize not ALL are racist nor carry and honor the flag for that reason.

STAYSEA

pandora wrote:

What is insensitive is people who can not or will not differentiate between those who honor
and those who hate. It is not over for families of those lost.
Certainly not over because of haters...
those as you hate and those who use the flag to hate. That would be allowing the haters to win.

Don't let the haters win. Thank you Pandora, for clearly repeating what needs to be said.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Uh, I know it's hate groups. That was the point. You are supporting a flag that has been taken over by hate groups. Your little Southern pride confederate flag bolster committee has lost the battle. At this point you just seem insensitive. It's over. Time to face it. The flag belings to hate groups and racist white trash now. Your attitude is the kind of attitude that is helping to maintain negative Southern stereotypes.

What is insensitive is people who can not or will not differentiate between those who honor
and those who hate. It is not over for families of those lost.
Certainly not over because of haters...
those as you hate and those who use the flag to hate. That would be allowing the haters to win.

It IS over because of haters. The haters made your flag a symbol of hate. I am not a hater for being against a symbol of hate. Nice try (not really). The issue is not that we can't diffentiate between those who hate and those who don't. That is not even the discussion that is taking place here. Focus Pandora. The argument here may as well be that I'm German and want to use the fucking Nazi flag to honour my grandparents who died in WWII. Hey, they fought bravely for the Nazis and died in battle. I'm going to fly my swastika on Remembrance day! That should go over well! :fp: That is ludicrous. And so is using the confederate flag as a symbol of honour. It is now a HATE SYMBOL. I know you don't want it to be. But it still is. Sorry, tough break!

Wow, you are so stubborn, it just defies all logic. :fp:

redrock

This thread has come down to:

I know a few lovely people who fly this flag to honor their ancestors and show their 'southern pride' (whatever that may be) and are not racist.

and/or

Due to it's history and the history of the South, the flag is a symbol of racism and oppression for a majority of people - black (especially), white, etc.. No hate involved (after all, 'hate' towards a bit of fabric is just silly. And, whilst I know the word 'haters' has been used and directed towards people, it's an asinie notion here - we are talking symbol) - but justifiable offense when it is displayed without consideration by certain people (ie perhaps arrogantly by a part of the population that still have 'certain attitudes'.

and/or

It has been taken over as a symbol for white supremacy (for obvious reasons) and it is understood as such by the large majority of people. These are the people that need to be described as haters.... not those who take offense to a symbol.

Take your pick....

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

The difference here is a hate group adopted a flag for their purposes, not everyones.
This flag is not a symbol of hate for everyone but a historic flag their lost loved ones fought for,
died for, it is here to stay for a reason.

Not sure how a rapper condoning drugging a girl with Molly without her knowing it and taking
her home and raping her has anything to do with a historic flag.
He was a person endorsing a product who made a very bad decision.

Read it again, it is pretty clear. It is symbolism...Ross was a symbol of a lifestyle for Reebok...that changed when he released that song with the lyrics in question. The meaning of symbols change.

in the highlighted part above you are making a distinction without a difference Pandora. I have already acknowledged that not all who would ever look at or display the flag think of it as a symbol of racism...BUT when the majority of a society do look at it that way that is what it means for good or bad...that is what I meant by social construct earlier. It may not be fair to those who don't display it for bigotry, but Fair is where you go to buy a pig, because life ain't it.

pandora

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Im glad you do too. It may balance it for you.. but not the rest of the USA. Its really too bad that so many hate groups adopted the flag really. or maybe its too bad something else with less negative implications hasnt come along to take its place, to represent pride for ones ancestry. No matter what, its a controversial symbol.. unfortunately for the few who do like it for harmless reasons.

I will agree it is too bad about hate groups adopting the flag but the way people are so quick
to generalize and hate ALL is no better than the hate groups themselves.
The hypocrisy there speaks volumes to character.

Then those who have forgiven, embraced, have love and kindness in their hearts
are called stupid and insensitive ... go figure. :fp:

STAYSEA

mcgruff10 wrote:

I'm an 8th grade teacher in New Jersey and my class saw a segment today about a kid being suspended for wearing a shirt with the confederate flag on it. What do you guys think, is the flag offensive or is it historical? Just looking for everyone's opinion. Thanks.

Mike

The Confederate Flag is HISTORICAL.


It's a 8th grade kid wearing the shirt...
It's my opinion he had little clues as to what his shirt really meant. Or he could have been out of laundry, and that was the only clean shirt he had.

I'm sure there is a rule in the school handbook, and if it's offensive to others at the school he should be made to change his clothing.

PJ_Soul

redrock wrote:

This thread has come down to:

I know a few lovely people who fly this flag to honor their ancestors and show their 'southern pride' (whatever that may be) and are not racist.

and/or

Due to it's history and the history of the South, the flag is a symbol of racism and oppression for a majority of people - black (especially), white, etc.. No hate involved (after all, 'hate' towards a bit of fabric is just silly. And, whilst I know the word 'haters' has been used and directed towards people, it's an asinie notion here - we are talking symbol) - but justifiable offense when it is displayed without consideration by certain people (ie perhaps arrogantly by a part of the population that still have 'certain attitudes'.

and/or

It has been taken over as a symbol for white supremacy (for obvious reasons) and it is understood as such by the large majority of people. These are the people that need to be described as haters.... not those who take offense to a symbol.

Take your pick....

Thank you redrock.

redrock

STAYSEA wrote:

The Confederate Flag is HISTORICAL.

Of course it's historical. No argument about that (though maybe the wording of the title can be a bit confusing).

But historical doesn't preclude offensive.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Im glad you do too. It may balance it for you.. but not the rest of the USA. Its really too bad that so many hate groups adopted the flag really. or maybe its too bad something else with less negative implications hasnt come along to take its place, to represent pride for ones ancestry. No matter what, its a controversial symbol.. unfortunately for the few who do like it for harmless reasons.

I will agree it is too bad about hate groups adopting the flag but the way people are so quick
to generalize and hate ALL is no better than the hate groups themselves.
The hypocrisy there speaks volumes to character.

Then those who have forgiven, embraced, have love and kindness in their hearts
are called stupid and insensitive ... go figure. :fp:

No one in this thread has once said anything about hating ALL as you say. I have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, it's either stupid or insensitive to stick up for a symbol of bigotry and slavery in America just out of stubbornness. I don't find it kind or loving for someone to bolster a symbol that to most is a symbol that glorifies the disgusting history of slavery, oppression, bigotry and racially motivated murder just because you happen to have a different idea about it. You know what it means to most most people, but don't care. That isn't kind or loving at all. It's selfish. That's not hateful for me to say that.

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

The difference here is a hate group adopted a flag for their purposes, not everyones.
This flag is not a symbol of hate for everyone but a historic flag their lost loved ones fought for,
died for, it is here to stay for a reason.

Not sure how a rapper condoning drugging a girl with Molly without her knowing it and taking
her home and raping her has anything to do with a historic flag.
He was a person endorsing a product who made a very bad decision.

Read it again, it is pretty clear. It is symbolism...Ross was a symbol of a lifestyle for Reebok...that changed when he released that song with the lyrics in question. The meaning of symbols change.

in the highlighted part above you are making a distinction without a difference Pandora. I have already acknowledged that not all who would ever look at or display the flag think of it as a symbol of racism...BUT when the majority of a society do look at it that way that is what it means for good or bad...that is what I meant by social construct earlier. It may not be fair to those who don't display it for bigotry, but Fair is where you go to buy a pig, because life ain't it.

I'm glad you are not in charge .You would not be fair at all. In fact don't you preach freedom?
freedoms?

I'm glad that those of pure intention and heart can still honor their ancestors
and others can embrace love, kindness and forgiveness. These are all positive things.
This in spite of the closed minded generalists.
I'm glad we can still have some positivity and not succumb to hate. Because that is what
the good folk here are doing in the name of family, history and Southern pride,
when some think they are being stupid and insensitive :crazy:

So next time you see a flag know the intention even if you don't think that person should display it.
It matters that they display for good.

riotgrl

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

I enjoyed reading this historian ...

http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... lding.html

Yes, I enjoyed it as well. He made excellent points about why people in the south would have fought the Civil War and supported secession. However, all his points explained why they supported slavery, for religious, political, or economic reasons and in no way does this excuse someone from today for supporting the use of this flag for personal reaons. I am a lifelong resident of the south. I have family members who also believe this flag represents their southern pride. They also insist they are not racist and are not supporting the racist ideology of this war. However, they are indeed racist and do not realize that the pervasive attitudes of many within the south, especially the deep south, are racist.

I thought I was to ignore you... can I reply?

yes I know what he wrote was about and yes it was not to support how I feel it was to
bring a light to those who read about the times and what some Southerners faced.

You know racists, this is your life experiences, negative from what we can read.
But hopefully you realize not ALL are racist nor carry and honor the flag for that reason.

The people that I know are good people. They don't think they are racist and they do not mean any harm when they use this flag as a sign of their southern heritage but they do harm whether they admit it or not. Do you acknowledge and agree with the points the historian made about the reasons southerners supported and fought the war? Isn't fighting for slavery, the peculiar institution, their way of life based on a system of slavery, inherently racist?

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Im glad you do too. It may balance it for you.. but not the rest of the USA. Its really too bad that so many hate groups adopted the flag really. or maybe its too bad something else with less negative implications hasnt come along to take its place, to represent pride for ones ancestry. No matter what, its a controversial symbol.. unfortunately for the few who do like it for harmless reasons.

I will agree it is too bad about hate groups adopting the flag but the way people are so quick
to generalize and hate ALL is no better than the hate groups themselves.
The hypocrisy there speaks volumes to character.

Then those who have forgiven, embraced, have love and kindness in their hearts
are called stupid and insensitive ... go figure. :fp:

No one in this thread has once said anything about hating ALL as you say. I have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, it's either stupid or insensitive to stick up for a symbol of bigotry and slavery in America just out of stubbornness. I don't find it kind or loving for someone to bolster a symbol that to most is a symbol that glorifies the disgusting history of slavery, oppression, bigotry and racially motivated murder just because you happen to have a different idea about it. You knkw what it means to most most people, bu don't care. That isn't kind or loving at all. It's selfish.

I noticed how much you embrace and try to understand those who carry the flag
that have good intentions and why they do. So who is stubborn and insensitive?

And yes they will continue to carry, display and honor their flag.
Good thing they are free to do so.
I have a feeling some here might want to remove the Freedom of Speech as well :shock:
uh oh....
whole nother thread.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

I thought I was to ignore you... can I reply?

yes I know what he wrote was about and yes it was not to support how I feel it was to
bring a light to those who read about the times and what some Southerners faced.

You know racists, this is your life experiences, negative from what we can read.
But hopefully you realize not ALL are racist nor carry and honor the flag for that reason.

The people that I know are good people. They don't think they are racist and they do not mean any harm when they use this flag as a sign of their southern heritage but they do harm whether they admit it or not. Do you acknowledge and agree with the points the historian made about the reasons southerners supported and fought the war? Isn't fighting for slavery, the peculiar institution, their way of life based on a system of slavery, inherently racist?

You think it is racist to display the flag that is clear. From the start of this thread it is you who are
offended by the flag and ALL who fly it. You think of it as a symbol of racism.
When to some it is not. Your very own loved ones it is not.
It is you who can not see the difference between using the flag to honor
lost patriots in a historic way and those who do in a racist way, in hate groups.
I see a big difference. Your family too I guess.

I posted the article because I like all his reads and because I wanted to show the influences
of the times on the common man in the South who did not own slaves. What made him fight?
Lose his life? What still has him being remembered and honored today by some?
This has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with history.

rollings

Didn't the American Flag as we know it today more or less "replace" the confederate flag?

Whenever I see the confederate flag or sticker of it, I think that the person displaying it still wants to hold to the southern beliefs that once split the country--and the biggest split as we all know was the issue of slavery

I can see keeping the conferate flag as a memorial If a person's ancestors died in the civil war as a member of the conferate army.

But when I see it displayed, it leaves a sort of bad taste in my mouth because I think the person is trying to make a statement about wanting the country to still be split

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

I will agree it is too bad about hate groups adopting the flag but the way people are so quick
to generalize and hate ALL is no better than the hate groups themselves.
The hypocrisy there speaks volumes to character.

Then those who have forgiven, embraced, have love and kindness in their hearts
are called stupid and insensitive ... go figure. :fp:

No one in this thread has once said anything about hating ALL as you say. I have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, it's either stupid or insensitive to stick up for a symbol of bigotry and slavery in America just out of stubbornness. I don't find it kind or loving for someone to bolster a symbol that to most is a symbol that glorifies the disgusting history of slavery, oppression, bigotry and racially motivated murder just because you happen to have a different idea about it. You knkw what it means to most most people, bu don't care. That isn't kind or loving at all. It's selfish.

I noticed how much you embrace and try to understand those who carry the flag
that have good intentions and why they do. So who is stubborn and insensitive?

And yes they will continue to carry, display and honor their flag.
Good thing they are free to do so.
I have a feeling some here might want to remove the Freedom of Speech as well :shock:
uh oh....
whole nother thread.

Why are you taking it there?? That is a very cheap little argument to throw in, the free speech comment, and has nothing to do with what anyone is saying. No one has suggested even remotely that people don't have the right to display a symbol. We are talking about our opinions about what that symbol means and why it can't be benign no matter who wishes that it were. And then you go and accuse us of perhaps being against free speech, because we have our own opinions? That's dirty.

And I'm not about to embrace those who want to do something that hurts other people. If I did, THAT would be insensitive.

PJ_Soul

rollings wrote:

Didn't the American Flag as we know it today more or less "replace" the confederate flag?

Whenever I see the confederate flag or sticker of it, I think that the person displaying it still wants to hold to the southern beliefs that once split the country--and the biggest split as we all know was the issue of slavery

I can see keeping the conferate flag as a memorial If a person's ancestors died in the civil war as a member of the conferate army.

But when I see it displayed, it leaves a sort of bad taste in my mouth because I think the person is trying to make a statement about wanting the country to still be split

That's what I think too.

redrock

riotgrl wrote:

I am a lifelong resident of the south. .

A true southern belle!

Call me naive, but I would think that a 'native' would probably have more of an overall insight as to the 'ways' of the south (or wherever).

I have been living in my 'host country' for many, many years and encountered, worked with, lived with all kinds of different people with different views pertaining to the country (or rather some areas of the country) but all within certain circles I 'move' in (which is normal). Even after all these years, I would never even think that I have as much of a broad and in depth (yes, may seem contradictory but it not really..) knowledge as a native, a life-long resident.

pandora

redrock wrote:

This thread has come down to:

I know a few lovely people who fly this flag to honor their ancestors and show their 'southern pride' (whatever that may be) and are not racist.

and/or

Due to it's history and the history of the South, the flag is a symbol of racism and oppression for a majority of people - black (especially), white, etc.. No hate involved (after all, 'hate' towards a bit of fabric is just silly. And, whilst I know the word 'haters' has been used and directed towards people, it's an asinie notion here - we are talking symbol) - but justifiable offense when it is displayed without consideration by certain people (ie perhaps arrogantly by a part of the population that still have 'certain attitudes'.

and/or

It has been taken over as a symbol for white supremacy (for obvious reasons) and it is understood as such by the large majority of people. These are the people that need to be described as haters.... not those who take offense to a symbol.

Take your pick....

Those who generalize and do not differentiate between why someone flies the flag
lumping those who choose to honor the flag with those who hate...
That is what haters do... they generalize and hate.

It has nothing to do with being offended it has everything to do with not accepting
those who fly the flag for noble reasons. It is calling those people stupid and insensitive.
It is implying they should not honor because a hate group has used their flag as a symbol.

Hate the hate groups, those that deserve it and leave those who have good motives alone
and recognize them for that.