I don't even see the point of this discussion. Did I miss something on the news? Is the American government gearing up to slaughter its citizens? :roll:
The argument that we must be able to arm ourselves against the government, and thus must have loose gun controls, is obsolete in North America.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I personally do not think the NRAs plan is the "Solution" but its something in the meantime to deter this type of madness while we find the root cause, "Solution". The state of mind that drives somebody to this madness. What are we doing proactively? There were plenty of resources available to have been proactive, you can see this by the presence of so many heroic first responders in the photos of Newtown. The problem is, this is always reactive. Somebody called the police AFTER 26 VERY INNOCENT people were taken from us didn't they? Is anyone on here aware when you call the police to respond to danger or protect you from an intruder etc. they have a weapon?
In Washington DC, buildings such as The White House, the Capital, the Pentagon, are secured proactively by armed guards. Why in this country do these select few deserve armed protection and our children do not?
It is my opinion that this Evil in Newtown did not want confrontation, (he took his own life when police arrived, heard this reported on the news). I believe if he would have known or thought there would have been a real opposition to his actions he would not have went through with this. Shit, I put up an alarm sign as a deterrent in my front lawn so somebody will think twice to break in. And of course if they do not obey the warnings, there is one other deterrent inside, 45 acp .
I recently went to a Sheriffs Dept Christmas party at the department where my wife works and as I looked around at all the the Deputies, the Chief, many srgts all with their weapons. I thought to myself there is no way somebody is coming into this building and executing 26 people. I wonder why? Armed officers, Hmmm...? In no way were the kids present, distracted by the presence of so many weapons, it did nothing to their Christmas spirits. At one time I thought are children were taught to find a uniformed officer or call 911? Why is this now so shocking.
Most people that complete this kind of violence expect to die in the process. When they wear protective gear, it's typically to be able to kill as many people as possible before they're taken down. They go into it expecting confrontation and planning to either kill themselves or die in the process. This is different than serial killers,who don't expect or want to be caught. I'm not sure how much armed guards would deter this. As others have said earlier in the thread, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out where the guard is located and to start the killing at the other end of the school. My high school was huge. It would take several minutes for a guard to get from one side to the other. The CT killings took 2 minutes. That's the cost of having semi-automatic weapons that can fire off so many rounds so quickly. Having armed police/guards didn't deter the shooters at VA Tech, Columbine, or Fort Hood. I think this will provide a false sense of security. This is a bigger issue than adding an armed guard to schools across the nation. We have to focus on prevention. That will require an entire culture shift. Interesting article on this if anyone is interested:
Most people that complete this kind of violence expect to die in the process. When they wear protective gear, it's typically to be able to kill as many people as possible before they're taken down. They go into it expecting confrontation and planning to either kill themselves or die in the process. This is different than serial killers,who don't expect or want to be caught. I'm not sure how much armed guards would deter this. As others have said earlier in the thread, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out where the guard is located and to start the killing at the other end of the school. My high school was huge. It would take several minutes for a guard to get from one side to the other. The CT killings took 2 minutes. That's the cost of having semi-automatic weapons that can fire off so many rounds so quickly. Having armed police/guards didn't deter the shooters at VA Tech, Columbine, or Fort Hood. I think this will provide a false sense of security. This is a bigger issue than adding an armed guard to schools across the nation. We have to focus on prevention. That will require an entire culture shift. Interesting article on this if anyone is interested:
No kidding. Plus, most mass shooters are way better armed than an armed guard is. And much more motivated. I personally don't think that it would deter spree shooters much at all. All they need to do is kill the armed guard or, as you say, plan it so the guard is on his lunch break or on the other side of the campus. Armed guards in schools wouldn't do anything except make our children's world more oppressive IMO.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
You can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep. If I was a gun advocate, after reading this entry... I might be reconsidering my perspective.
I support having someone armed at schools. Why not? We have armed guards at banks, malls, sporting events, etc. WHy not having armed guards to protect our children?
I support having someone armed at schools. Why not? We have armed guards at banks, malls, sporting events, etc. WHy not having armed guards to protect our children?
I support having someone armed at schools. Why not? We have armed guards at banks, malls, sporting events, etc. WHy not having armed guards to protect our children?
I guess it's scary/strange to some people...
I had a police officer at my high school...
It's actually mind blowing to me all schools don't have armed security.
I support having someone armed at schools. Why not? We have armed guards at banks, malls, sporting events, etc. WHy not having armed guards to protect our children?
I guess it's scary/strange to some people...
I had a police officer at my high school...
It's actually mind blowing to me all schools don't have armed security.
because schools should not have to have armed security. if we did not have so many guns so readily available, a gun lobby who has the legislative branch bought and paid for, and so many kooks that feel the need to have combat grade guns we would not be having this problem.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I support having someone armed at schools. Why not? We have armed guards at banks, malls, sporting events, etc. WHy not having armed guards to protect our children?
I guess it's scary/strange to some people...
I had a police officer at my high school...
It's actually mind blowing to me all schools don't have armed security.
It's actually mind blowing to me that your country has to consider such measures.
Here's some food for thought:
I did a little research on the Chechan War the other day. In 2005, the NY Times reported an estimated 160,000 dead civilians and soldiers over its 10 year course to that point in time. While this figure has been debated... if we can accept it for illustrative purposes... this total amounted to 16,000 dead per year as a result of the war to that point in time.
As widely distributed, the US currently experiences an 'average' rate of 10,000 homicides per year by gunfire. In 2009, according to the CDC, the US experienced over 11,000 deaths by firearms.
In short, we can make 'rough' comparisons given the numbers that have been reported and that we can access:
Chechen War (to 2005): 16,000 per year.
US Civilian Life (with current numbers being maintained): 10,000 per year.
They are not equal... but they are fairly close and particularly disturbing to me when you consider:
One death toll is a result of armed conflict, missiles, tanks, jets and helicopters (among other things).
The 'other' death toll is generated, in part, by people going to malls, schools, theaters, and nightclubs.
I support having someone armed at schools. Why not? We have armed guards at banks, malls, sporting events, etc. WHy not having armed guards to protect our children?
I never required armed security at any school I ever went to, at any point in my life. Nor has anyone I have ever known, in any of the countries that I have lived.
So tell me, you believe America is at such a cross roads as to require armed guards at primary, secondary, and third level schools, but has not yet reached a stage where gun legislation should be made stricter, because that would be unfair to the majority of gun owners? Am I to get that right? LOL, that's one for the pub later, ha, only in America
While there is a large percentage of the population that recognize the gun situation for what it is... too many people- many of them seemingly reasonable in other threads- that truly believe they need big, powerful guns: they deny all the statistics, rationalize the violence, and ignore good old common sense.
With all the posts that have painfully been placed on this forum with the best intentions... not one 'gun supporter' has waffled in their beliefs. Steadfast in their belief systems, gun supporters cling to the musings of 250 year old documentation while making cheap (sometimes ridiculous) analogies that they think offers justification for their position. I won't discuss why I think this is so.
Moderation seems to be unacceptable for all of them. The thought of owning a shotgun or hunting rifle instead of an assault rifle or handgun is met with retorts parallel to accusing one of treason for suggesting so.
In some cases, the extreme faction of gun supporters laugh at the people pleading for measures of safety. Remember those posts that detailed the purchases of guns and ammunition immediately following the school shooting? Remember the posts suggesting that anyone who didn't have a gun would need to come running for help from a person who had one?
In other cases, gun owners on this forum became threatening when the suggestion was made to take away their guns: "I'd like to see them do it!"
Given the mentality that exists... solving the problem will not be easy to say the least.
With that said... some critical steps that could be taken to help the problem might include:
- Grandfathering all assault style rifles and handguns purchased to date.
- Eliminating future sales of the above weapons.
- Ammunition for the above guns should be taxed ridiculously high.
- The increased revenue generated from ammunition sales could be used to support a 'buy back' program to get weapons off the street for those inclined to sell.
- Of course... developing a licensing system that does its best to ensure only appropriate people can purchase a gun.
Don't get me wrong- I'm for simply getting rid of the aforementioned weapons and the ammunition they need now; however, I truly believe such a venture would prove costly. In attempting such... we would bear witness to extreme cases of resistance that would place the US lawmen in danger- not to mention the general public.
An armed guard is no match for a deranged killer with a plan and an arsenal. This armed guard at school idea seems foolish to me. It wouldn't prevent anything, and would only make the world seem more scary and paranoia-inducing than it already is to children. Seriously one of the dumbest ideas of 2012.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
they are not a part of the problem or the solution. they are the entire problem...
Entire problem? So nothing else anyone does means anything? Nothing else matters? Nothing else is the reason? That kid wasnt a member. So it wasnt his thoughts? Im trying to figure this one out! LOL
Theres no time like the present
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
An armed guard is no match for a deranged killer with a plan and an arsenal. This armed guard at school idea seems foolish to me. It wouldn't prevent anything, and would only make the world seem more scary and paranoia-inducing than it already is to children. Seriously one of the dumbest ideas of 2012.
This was my observation. Let's say I was plotting a mass killing and I knew there was one guy who could stop me.
How hard would it be to walk up behind him during a class break, pop him in the back of the head, and then go off on everyone else? :geek:
An armed guard is no match for a deranged killer with a plan and an arsenal. This armed guard at school idea seems foolish to me. It wouldn't prevent anything, and would only make the world seem more scary and paranoia-inducing than it already is to children. Seriously one of the dumbest ideas of 2012.
and your idea is.............drumroll...............????
Theres no time like the present
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
An armed guard is no match for a deranged killer with a plan and an arsenal. This armed guard at school idea seems foolish to me. It wouldn't prevent anything, and would only make the world seem more scary and paranoia-inducing than it already is to children. Seriously one of the dumbest ideas of 2012.
and your idea is.............drumroll...............????
better regulation.
Training required for gun purchases. Ban assault rifles. Ban extended clips. Mental exams.
The past week's shootings makes it clear that trying to protect schools is only a slice of the overall problem.
An armed guard is no match for a deranged killer with a plan and an arsenal. This armed guard at school idea seems foolish to me. It wouldn't prevent anything, and would only make the world seem more scary and paranoia-inducing than it already is to children. Seriously one of the dumbest ideas of 2012.
and your idea is.............drumroll...............????
better regulation.
Training required for gun purchases. Ban assault rifles. Ban extended clips. Mental exams.
The past week's shootings makes it clear that trying to protect schools is only a slice of the overall problem.
What he said.
No one could ever ensure that all children are safe anywhere, including their school... just like it's impossible to ensure that a single person on the planet is 100% safe. That's life. To react to this tragedy by screaming for an armed guard at every school is like screaming for a band-aid when someone's arm has been chopped off. Useless and a deliberate avoidance of the problem. With the added bonus of being a waste of money and resources, and ultimately a negative psychological factor in children's lives.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
An armed guard is no match for a deranged killer with a plan and an arsenal. This armed guard at school idea seems foolish to me. It wouldn't prevent anything, and would only make the world seem more scary and paranoia-inducing than it already is to children. Seriously one of the dumbest ideas of 2012.
and your idea is.............drumroll...............????
better regulation.
Training required for gun purchases. Ban assault rifles. Ban extended clips. Mental exams.
The past week's shootings makes it clear that trying to protect schools is only a slice of the overall problem.
Agree on all points.
I would also be in favor of limiting the number of guns any one individual can own at one time. You have the right to bare arms, not the right to collect arms, build an arsenal, and arm your friends and neighbors. How many guns can you bare at one time? No one needs more than two handguns and a hunting rifle. If you do I would like to know why.
I would also be in favor of limiting the number of guns any one individual can own at one time. You have the right to bare arms, not the right to collect arms, build an arsenal, and arm your friends and neighbors. How many guns can you bare at one time? No one needs more than two handguns and a hunting rifle. If you do I would like to know why.
I would also be in favor of limiting the number of guns any one individual can own at one time. You have the right to bare arms, not the right to collect arms, build an arsenal, and arm your friends and neighbors. How many guns can you bare at one time? No one needs more than two handguns and a hunting rifle. If you do I would like to know why.
How hard would it be to walk up behind him during a class break, pop him in the back of the head, and then go off on everyone else? :geek:
Harder than if he wasn't there. With this mindset we should just eliminate armed guards all together then. I mean how hard is it to just pop a bank guard in the back of the head and then go about business? Kind of weird (and this isn't directed at this poster I'm just comenting) that people have no problem having armed guards in banks protecting the money...but having armed guards to protect their children is mind blowing? People using guns in both situations guys are criminals.
How hard would it be to walk up behind him during a class break, pop him in the back of the head, and then go off on everyone else? :geek:
Harder than if he wasn't there. With this mindset we should just eliminate armed guards all together then. I mean how hard is it to just pop a bank guard in the back of the head and then go about business? Kind of weird (and this isn't directed at this poster I'm just comenting) that people have no problem having armed guards in banks protecting the money...but having armed guards to protect their children is mind blowing? People using guns in both situations guys are criminals.
DS, most people with children don't want them gong to schools that resemble prisons or court houses in any way; armed guards in schools would lead us in that direction. Next, metal detectors in every school. Panic rooms. Filled with cameras. It would turn schools into a place of clear rather than learning and nurturing. that is not far-fetched if armed guards are accepted as a good idea. They already have some of those prison-like schools in inner cities, and they are mourned, not celebrated. It is not something that would improve society. It would harm it. Also, what happens when some kid gets shot by accident, or some parent or older brother who doesn't know protocol runs into an overzealous guard? Seems more likely than a school shooting spree to me. I mean, how many school killing sprees happen each year compared to accidental shootings? Zero to thousands or something like that, on average?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
DS, most people with children don't want them gong to schools that resemble prisons or court houses in any way; armed guards in schools would lead us in that direction. Next, metal detectors in every school. Panic rooms. Filled with cameras. It would turn schools into a place of clear rather than learning and nurturing. that is not far-fetched if armed guards are accepted as a good idea. They already have some of those prison-like schools in inner cities, and they are mourned, not.celebrated. It is not something that would improve society. It would harm it.
Then attack the criminals...not the law abiding citizens who are just excercising their constitutional rights. Take the idiots from the streets with an increased police force and these issues will be reduced far greater than by passing paper legislation that does jack shit than make sexy headlines and people feeling warm and fuzzy. I read about "closing loop holes at gun shows"...please. If criminals want guns they will get guns. Seems to be there's a shit ton of legislation about heroin, crack, cocaine, pills, and that shit is everywhere....just like guns. The legislation that's out there is a joke. An absolute joke. Legislators can put whatever they want ot on paper but until they actually put means out there to enforce it it's all bullshit. It's a people problem not a gun problem. I seem to remember legislation that says it's illegal to commit murder, rape, stealing, theft, drugs, drunk driving, etc. but without actual enforcement it still goes on and will go on. These "gun laws" are pure bullshit. Liberals trying to punish the masses for the few kooks out there.
Comments
The argument that we must be able to arm ourselves against the government, and thus must have loose gun controls, is obsolete in North America.
In Washington DC, buildings such as The White House, the Capital, the Pentagon, are secured proactively by armed guards. Why in this country do these select few deserve armed protection and our children do not?
It is my opinion that this Evil in Newtown did not want confrontation, (he took his own life when police arrived, heard this reported on the news). I believe if he would have known or thought there would have been a real opposition to his actions he would not have went through with this. Shit, I put up an alarm sign as a deterrent in my front lawn so somebody will think twice to break in. And of course if they do not obey the warnings, there is one other deterrent inside, 45 acp
I recently went to a Sheriffs Dept Christmas party at the department where my wife works and as I looked around at all the the Deputies, the Chief, many srgts all with their weapons. I thought to myself there is no way somebody is coming into this building and executing 26 people. I wonder why? Armed officers, Hmmm...? In no way were the kids present, distracted by the presence of so many weapons, it did nothing to their Christmas spirits. At one time I thought are children were taught to find a uniformed officer or call 911? Why is this now so shocking.
My two cents.
http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/1/87.full
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Money well spent IMO.
Tell your friends.
You can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep. If I was a gun advocate, after reading this entry... I might be reconsidering my perspective.
I guess it's scary/strange to some people...
I had a police officer at my high school...
It's actually mind blowing to me all schools don't have armed security.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Kinda sad when an oppresive/occupying governemnt doesnt back your stance~!!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
It's actually mind blowing to me that your country has to consider such measures.
Here's some food for thought:
I did a little research on the Chechan War the other day. In 2005, the NY Times reported an estimated 160,000 dead civilians and soldiers over its 10 year course to that point in time. While this figure has been debated... if we can accept it for illustrative purposes... this total amounted to 16,000 dead per year as a result of the war to that point in time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/world ... .html?_r=0
As widely distributed, the US currently experiences an 'average' rate of 10,000 homicides per year by gunfire. In 2009, according to the CDC, the US experienced over 11,000 deaths by firearms.
In short, we can make 'rough' comparisons given the numbers that have been reported and that we can access:
Chechen War (to 2005): 16,000 per year.
US Civilian Life (with current numbers being maintained): 10,000 per year.
They are not equal... but they are fairly close and particularly disturbing to me when you consider:
One death toll is a result of armed conflict, missiles, tanks, jets and helicopters (among other things).
The 'other' death toll is generated, in part, by people going to malls, schools, theaters, and nightclubs.
I never required armed security at any school I ever went to, at any point in my life. Nor has anyone I have ever known, in any of the countries that I have lived.
So tell me, you believe America is at such a cross roads as to require armed guards at primary, secondary, and third level schools, but has not yet reached a stage where gun legislation should be made stricter, because that would be unfair to the majority of gun owners? Am I to get that right? LOL, that's one for the pub later, ha, only in America
History has proven that you live in a country where you are free to hate and fear the government unmolested.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
And get this, Virginia Tech had its very own Police Department during the '07 massacre.
Huh, go figure ...
:think:
While there is a large percentage of the population that recognize the gun situation for what it is... too many people- many of them seemingly reasonable in other threads- that truly believe they need big, powerful guns: they deny all the statistics, rationalize the violence, and ignore good old common sense.
With all the posts that have painfully been placed on this forum with the best intentions... not one 'gun supporter' has waffled in their beliefs. Steadfast in their belief systems, gun supporters cling to the musings of 250 year old documentation while making cheap (sometimes ridiculous) analogies that they think offers justification for their position. I won't discuss why I think this is so.
Moderation seems to be unacceptable for all of them. The thought of owning a shotgun or hunting rifle instead of an assault rifle or handgun is met with retorts parallel to accusing one of treason for suggesting so.
In some cases, the extreme faction of gun supporters laugh at the people pleading for measures of safety. Remember those posts that detailed the purchases of guns and ammunition immediately following the school shooting? Remember the posts suggesting that anyone who didn't have a gun would need to come running for help from a person who had one?
In other cases, gun owners on this forum became threatening when the suggestion was made to take away their guns: "I'd like to see them do it!"
Given the mentality that exists... solving the problem will not be easy to say the least.
With that said... some critical steps that could be taken to help the problem might include:
- Grandfathering all assault style rifles and handguns purchased to date.
- Eliminating future sales of the above weapons.
- Ammunition for the above guns should be taxed ridiculously high.
- The increased revenue generated from ammunition sales could be used to support a 'buy back' program to get weapons off the street for those inclined to sell.
- Of course... developing a licensing system that does its best to ensure only appropriate people can purchase a gun.
Don't get me wrong- I'm for simply getting rid of the aforementioned weapons and the ammunition they need now; however, I truly believe such a venture would prove costly. In attempting such... we would bear witness to extreme cases of resistance that would place the US lawmen in danger- not to mention the general public.
There is no way to pay for one guard in every school.
If you start picking and choosing schools, no such plan created before two weeks ago would have included schools in a place like Newtown, CT.
This really is one of the dumber ideas of 2012.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Entire problem? So nothing else anyone does means anything? Nothing else matters? Nothing else is the reason? That kid wasnt a member. So it wasnt his thoughts? Im trying to figure this one out! LOL
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
How hard would it be to walk up behind him during a class break, pop him in the back of the head, and then go off on everyone else? :geek:
and your idea is.............drumroll...............????
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
Training required for gun purchases. Ban assault rifles. Ban extended clips. Mental exams.
The past week's shootings makes it clear that trying to protect schools is only a slice of the overall problem.
What he said.
No one could ever ensure that all children are safe anywhere, including their school... just like it's impossible to ensure that a single person on the planet is 100% safe. That's life. To react to this tragedy by screaming for an armed guard at every school is like screaming for a band-aid when someone's arm has been chopped off. Useless and a deliberate avoidance of the problem. With the added bonus of being a waste of money and resources, and ultimately a negative psychological factor in children's lives.
Agree on all points.
I would also be in favor of limiting the number of guns any one individual can own at one time. You have the right to bare arms, not the right to collect arms, build an arsenal, and arm your friends and neighbors. How many guns can you bare at one time? No one needs more than two handguns and a hunting rifle. If you do I would like to know why.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
interesting find
Bird hunt lately?
Emoticon.
Nailed it
Harder than if he wasn't there. With this mindset we should just eliminate armed guards all together then. I mean how hard is it to just pop a bank guard in the back of the head and then go about business? Kind of weird (and this isn't directed at this poster I'm just comenting) that people have no problem having armed guards in banks protecting the money...but having armed guards to protect their children is mind blowing? People using guns in both situations guys are criminals.
Then attack the criminals...not the law abiding citizens who are just excercising their constitutional rights. Take the idiots from the streets with an increased police force and these issues will be reduced far greater than by passing paper legislation that does jack shit than make sexy headlines and people feeling warm and fuzzy. I read about "closing loop holes at gun shows"...please. If criminals want guns they will get guns. Seems to be there's a shit ton of legislation about heroin, crack, cocaine, pills, and that shit is everywhere....just like guns. The legislation that's out there is a joke. An absolute joke. Legislators can put whatever they want ot on paper but until they actually put means out there to enforce it it's all bullshit. It's a people problem not a gun problem. I seem to remember legislation that says it's illegal to commit murder, rape, stealing, theft, drugs, drunk driving, etc. but without actual enforcement it still goes on and will go on. These "gun laws" are pure bullshit. Liberals trying to punish the masses for the few kooks out there.