I will not get into another gun debate ... it is futile.
It is disrespectful to the one's lost including the killer.
This might be the dumbest fucking thing ever written on this board. Debating the cause of death is fucking disrespectful? You know what I think is fucking disrespectful? Not fucking talking about it and not trying to come up with a solution before this happens again and again. It's disprespectful to bury your head in the sand and pretend this guys access to guns has nothing to do with what happened. Infuckingcredible
Everyone should be outraged and sad. But this would have happened with or without guns. Earlier this week a man in China walked into a school and stabbed 22 children. The world is going mad.
I cannot comprehend what you might really mean. Please explain then how its possible that 20 little children could have possibly been shot & killed WITHOUT guns.
fatal gunshot wounds on 5-year olds beg for your answer please.
It's incredible the pro gun people keep using this argument. NO ONE FUCKING DIED! That is the point
Obama mentioned praying and God in his speech yesterday.
maybe God even if only as a means to what is good and/or some kind of semblance of peace of mind isn't such a bad idea at the present time, don't you think?
I will not get into another gun debate ... it is futile.
It is disrespectful to the one's lost including the killer.
This might be the dumbest fucking thing ever written on this board. Debating the cause of death is fucking disrespectful? You know what I think is fucking disrespectful? Not fucking talking about it and not trying to come up with a solution before this happens again and again. It's disprespectful to bury your head in the sand and pretend this guys access to guns has nothing to do with what happened. Infuckingcredible
Pandora the victim in 5, 4, 3 ,2 .....
Quoted for truth.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I think it's foolish to make this as cut and dry as "take away the guns, take away the killing". May stop stuff as shocking and headline grabbing as this but criminals would still have guns and there wouldn't be anything to scare them off. There's more violent crime in states that have tighter gun laws than vice versa and there's exponentially more crime done with illegally obtained/used guns(including this instance) than legal, responsible gun owners.
I agree that nobody need assault weapons, automatic weapons and frankly conceal/carry freaks me out to no end. This comin from somebody that's had some good times shooting them with friends.
There needs to be more accountability and it needs to be harder to get guns and ammunition. A cop can scan a barcode on my license and pull up my permanent record. It can't be that hard for something similar with gun buyers.
There needs to be psychiatric evaluations for anybody that's gonna own a gun and the doctors need to face harsh penalties for signing off on patients that commit violent crimes.
Gun dealers is probably the biggest problem. I've heard stories from my gun owning friends about dealers at gun shows. They'll setup in the parking lots afterwards and offload any unsold guns for next to nothing with little to no paper work. Wouldn't be hard to bust alot of these with the stories I've heard.
And I'm tired of the silly 2nd Amendment argument. The framers of The Constitution never imagined our modern society.
With all due respect they didn't imagine gay marriage or abortion when they framed the Constitution either but the COnstitution always gets brought up with those issues as well.
Exactly.... which means for the constitution to remain relevant, we have to take not the literal word, but the reason & intention of the constitution, which is the passage of rights to the individuals, and apply it in the context of an ever-changing society.
If you want to own a hunting rifle fine, but I still have yet to hear a logical reason as to why anyone needs a semi-automatic/assault weapon.
Same reason people own sports cars and motorcyles that can go 200mph plus. Actually if everyone thinks about it, pretty much everyone's car here can go 120-130 mph. What's the reason for that? If those sports cars were banned wouldn't that save some lives? How about everyone's car is governed to drive no faster than the speed limit? How about requiring cars with electronic kill switches installed that could be activated by police to avoid a car chase? These measures alone would save 1000's and 1000's of lives every year.
Obama mentioned praying and God in his speech yesterday.
maybe God even if only as a means to what is good and/or some kind of semblance of peace of mind isn't such a bad idea at the present time, don't you think?
Just bringing up the fact that he mentioned God and praying.
If you want to own a hunting rifle fine, but I still have yet to hear a logical reason as to why anyone needs a semi-automatic/assault weapon.
Same reason people own sports cars and motorcyles that can go 200mph plus. Actually if everyone thinks about it, pretty much everyone's car here can go 120-130 mph. What's the reason for that? If those sports cars were banned wouldn't that save some lives? How about everyone's car is governed to drive no faster than the speed limit? How about requiring cars with electronic kill switches installed that could be activated by police to avoid a car chase? These measures alone would save 1000's and 1000's of lives every year.
Was I asking about cars or motorcycles? No. They actually serve a purpose, to get people places. Guns serve one purpose, to kill. I will post my question again, why does anyone need a semi-automatic/assault weapon?
Alpine Valley 6/26/98, Alpine Valley 10/8/00, Champaign 4/23/03, Chicago 6/18/03, Alpine Valley 6/21/03, Grand Rapids 10/3/04
Chicago 5/16/06, Chicago 5/17/06, Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Milwaukee 6/29/06, Milwaukee 6/30/06, Lollapalooza 8/5/07
Eddie Solo Milwaukee 8/19/08, Toronto 8/21/09, Chicago 8/23/09
Chicago 8/24/09, Indianapolis 5/7/10, Ed Chicago 6/29/11, Alpine Valley 9/3/11 and 9/4/11, Wrigley 7/19/13, Moline 10/18/14, Milwaukee 10/20/14
Obama mentioned praying and God in his speech yesterday.
maybe God even if only as a means to what is good and/or some kind of semblance of peace of mind isn't such a bad idea at the present time, don't you think?
Just bringing up the fact that he mentioned God and praying.
oh. I suppose I couldn't derive in what context you were mentioning it then.
If you want to own a hunting rifle fine, but I still have yet to hear a logical reason as to why anyone needs a semi-automatic/assault weapon.
Same reason people own sports cars and motorcyles that can go 200mph plus. Actually if everyone thinks about it, pretty much everyone's car here can go 120-130 mph. What's the reason for that? If those sports cars were banned wouldn't that save some lives? How about everyone's car is governed to drive no faster than the speed limit? How about requiring cars with electronic kill switches installed that could be activated by police to avoid a car chase? These measures alone would save 1000's and 1000's of lives every year.
Was I asking about cars or motorcycles? No. They actually serve a purpose, to get people places. Guns serve one purpose, to kill. I will post my question again, why does anyone need a semi-automatic/assault weapon?
I was trying to make an analogy. But I guess to answer your question because they can. Some choose to do it for defense. Some choose to do it for sport. Some just do it to collect them. No different than any other item an individual owns. It is their right to do if they do it legally.
BTW, I just want to reinforce I don't and have never owned a weapon. To mena outlawing or severely restriciting guns is not the issue. It's a person issue.
As reports are flying around- was he really mentally ill? Or is that just an excuse we can give to wrap our minds around this tragedy. Oh, he's mentally I'll, So I'll give him a pass.
I'm sorry Pandora, but he could be just plain evil- and him AND a gun killed those people.
There was a report that his brother told police that the shooter is autistic and has a personality disorder. It's yet to be confirmed if he does in fact have a mental health diagnosis, and if so what the diagnosis is and what role it may have played in this crime. There's already so much stigma associated with autism, I'm afraid to see what else this stirs up. The personality disorder would probably have a lot more to do with a crime like this (probably a narcissistic or antisocial personality or paranoid personality disorder or a combination), perhaps compounded by an inability to empathize. Personality disorders are very chronic and can't be cured with medication. They aren't psychotic in nature. People don't have a break with reality. They know exactly what they're doing, but they just don't care. I've heard a lot of misinformation in the media already about the nature of these disorders and what should have been done. Insurance companies don't like to pay for AXIS II disorders and usually don't because they're so chronic in nature.
And I agree - a combination of those personality disorders would equate to pure evil.
This is a very good point, comebackgirl. It might be useful to look at what causes people to have these serious personality disorders. My guess it would have something to do with population crowding (a lot of research is out there on this), toxicity (decades of industrialism has put a lot of that in our food and environment), our culture's love of guns and the proliferation of violence in our media (tv, movies, etc.).
And I totally agree with your concerns for increasing the stigma of autism. Some very wonderful autistic people- Temple Grandin for example- have done wonderful things to make our world better.
I believe narcissism also plays a role in some of the modern day mental health issues from which some suffer. We continue to raise children that are incapable of exhibiting any level of empathy for another human being. What if this guy or others aren't truly mentally ill but because of our focus on granting every little wish and not providing a stable and disciplined environment for our children, we create generations of kids that are narcissistic and unable to grow out of a normal stage of development into a mature, empathetic adult? Couple that with ongoing exposure to violence and environmental toxins and we have created illness where it might not have otherwise existed. It's time to examine gun control laws and mental health advocacy but what about our parenting styles?
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
the most annoying statement I have heard today 'I'm a gun owner but I'm not violent".. well either was this guy before yesterday! He didn't have a record either.. These people that do this type of things aren't career criiminals or gang members so that argument doesn't hold water at all because a person with a background check that gets denied a gun because of their record aren't the people that do this...
Adam Lanza could have said the same thing after the movie theatre shooting this year....
So all gun owners are violent people? Is that what you are saying? I am a gun owner and I am outraged by what happened yesterday. The events yesterday are beyond sick...but to point the finger at gun ownership is the easy way out.
obviously not saying that.... I'm saying that how do you vet a person like the gunman yesterday who had NEVER had a record or any inclination to be a mass murderer.. so when people say 'I'm a gun owner, but I'm not viokent'.. doesn't make sense because most of the mass murderers haven't ever been in trouble. I don't think EVERY gun owner is violent.
Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. But the animal that commited yesterdays atrocity was not the owner of the weapons. His mother was the legal owner. But I understand your point. How do we prevent something like this to happen again? With that being said....I do beleive we need to have a serious discussion of what is happening in this country. It is not only gun violence but the direction that are youth are taking. We are losing respect for one another.
This latest tragedy shows us mentally disturbed people are not getting the help they need.
it's also fairly well-known that mentally disturbed people don't even seek or want or follow through with the help they need.
That's what gets lost in this too... One thing that everyone is pretty much in agreement is that there needs to be a better focus on mental illness, and more done on that front.
But what does that mean if an adult has mental issues and doesn't want help? Do we go and arbitrarily commit people or forcefully medicate people because we think that they could snap one day?
Is that what the republicans would rather have happen instead of stricter gun control policies?
I swear, it's like bizarro world right now... The right is calling for better mental health care, more secure schools and armed police/security, etc... Instead of just facing the elephant in the room (gun control), these freedom loving small government people seem much more eager to give up more freedom, and spend more money, instead of angering campaign contributors.
Evil is out there... evil has always been there, and always will. But high capacity semi-automatic weapons are a game changer as far as what damage evil can accomplish.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Actually if everyone thinks about it, pretty much everyone's car here can go 120-130 mph. What's the reason for that? If those sports cars were banned wouldn't that save some lives? ....
(in reference to guns)
.....Some just do it to collect them. No different than any other item an individual owns.
I'm not picking on you DS1119 or anything, but just saying in general....based on my observations, the more far-reaching away from the subject-at-hand an argument has to go, the more as far off base it is.
Actually if everyone thinks about it, pretty much everyone's car here can go 120-130 mph. What's the reason for that? If those sports cars were banned wouldn't that save some lives? ....
(in reference to guns)
.....Some just do it to collect them. No different than any other item an individual owns.
I'm not picking on you DS1119 or anything, but just saying in general....based on my observations, the more far-reaching away from the subject-at-hand an argument has to go, the more as far off base it is.
I don't think it does actually. It all comes down to an individuals rights within the law.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I can't think of one logical argument against any of these. Can you?
What would ‘meaningful action’ on gun control look like?
Posted by Sarah Kliff on December 15, 2012 at 2:58 pm
In his national address late Friday, President Obama promised “meaningful action” in the wake of the Newton school shooting. The statement left many wondering whether that would entail a push for new gun-control laws. If it does, the White House would have a number of options: One study estimates there are more than 20,000 laws regulating gun ownership already in place.
Advocacy groups and think tanks have worked through a number of proposals they think could reduce gun violence in the United States. Here are a few that have received the most serious consideration.
More extensive background checks. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, passed in 1993, mandated federal background checks on individual firearms from a registered firearms seller. Between 1994 and 2007, federal data show 1.6 million gun sales were blocked by background checks, half due to felony convictions.
Gun control advocates say that there’s a big loophole here: Unlicensed gun sellers do not have to conduct the background checks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms estimated in 1999 that about a quarter of the sellers at gun shows are unlicensed, noting that “some unlicensed vendors replenish and subsequently dispose of their inventories within a matter of days, often at the same show.” Some studies estimate that about 40 percent of gun sales are made by unlicensed sellers.
Gun control supporters like the Brady campaign have pushed for national legislation that would require everyone to undergo such background checks. Rep. Carolyn McCarty (D-NY) introduced one bill, the Fix Gun Checks Act of 2011, that extends ”Brady Act background check procedures to unlicensed transferors and transferees of firearms.”
Research on whether this would reduce gun violence is, according to a CDC literature review, “inconsistent.”
“Some studies indicated decreases in violence associated with restrictions, and others indicated increases,” the CDC study concluded. “One study indicated a statistically significant reduction in the rate of suicide by firearms among persons aged >55 years; however, the reduction in suicide by all methods was not statistically significant.”
Ban certain types of firearms. Between 1994 and 2004, the United States had a federal assault weapons ban, which prohibited the manufacturing of semi-automatic weapons for civilian use. That law had a sunset provision and lapsed during President George W. Bush’s presidency. Congressional attempts to reauthorize the law have never received a floor vote.
Local governments have also tried banning specific types of firearms, most notably the District of Columbia’s handgun ban, which the Supreme Court overturned in 2008 as violating the Second Amendment.
A study by the Department of Justice found that, after the ban, the share of gun crimes declined by 17 to 72 percent across the cities they studied (Baltimore, Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, St. Louis, and Anchorage). That decline, however, was largely offset by increased use of “large-capacity magazines,” firearms that hold 30 or more rounds of ammunition. Those manufactured prior to 1994 were exempt to from the law.
“The failure to reduce LCM [large capacity magazine] use has likely been due to the immense stock of exempted pre-ban magazines, which has been enhanced by recent imports,” the authors conclude.
An Australian gun reform law in 1996, which took pre-ban guns off the market as well, looks to have had more striking effects. Researchers in the British Medical Journal write that it was “followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides.”
Increase waiting periods. A handful of states have established waiting periods for obtaining a firearm, some lasting as long as two weeks (and some as short as two days). The idea is to create a “cool-down” period for the potential gun buyer. The federal government could, via legislation, set up a similar, national waiting period.
Researchers looked at the Brady Act’s five-day waiting period, which was in place 1994 through 1998, when it was eliminated by instantaneous background checks. Publishing in the Journal of the American Medical Association, they found the waiting periods to be “associated with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for persons aged 55 years or older but not with reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates.”
Increase public health funding. Researchers have recently begun to look at public health approaches to reducing gun violence. CureViolence, a Chicago-based non-profit, uses outreach workers to try an interrupt gun violence, much like public health workers attempt to stop the transmission of disease. Their initial work has shown some success: A recent intervention in Baltimore led to a 54 percent reduction in homicides in one of the city’s most violent neighborhoods. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... look-like/
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I can't think of one logical argument against any of these. Can you?
What would ‘meaningful action’ on gun control look like?
Posted by Sarah Kliff on December 15, 2012 at 2:58 pm
In his national address late Friday, President Obama promised “meaningful action” in the wake of the Newton school shooting. The statement left many wondering whether that would entail a push for new gun-control laws. If it does, the White House would have a number of options: One study estimates there are more than 20,000 laws regulating gun ownership already in place.
Advocacy groups and think tanks have worked through a number of proposals they think could reduce gun violence in the United States. Here are a few that have received the most serious consideration.
More extensive background checks. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, passed in 1993, mandated federal background checks on individual firearms from a registered firearms seller. Between 1994 and 2007, federal data show 1.6 million gun sales were blocked by background checks, half due to felony convictions.
Gun control advocates say that there’s a big loophole here: Unlicensed gun sellers do not have to conduct the background checks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms estimated in 1999 that about a quarter of the sellers at gun shows are unlicensed, noting that “some unlicensed vendors replenish and subsequently dispose of their inventories within a matter of days, often at the same show.” Some studies estimate that about 40 percent of gun sales are made by unlicensed sellers.
Gun control supporters like the Brady campaign have pushed for national legislation that would require everyone to undergo such background checks. Rep. Carolyn McCarty (D-NY) introduced one bill, the Fix Gun Checks Act of 2011, that extends ”Brady Act background check procedures to unlicensed transferors and transferees of firearms.”
Research on whether this would reduce gun violence is, according to a CDC literature review, “inconsistent.”
“Some studies indicated decreases in violence associated with restrictions, and others indicated increases,” the CDC study concluded. “One study indicated a statistically significant reduction in the rate of suicide by firearms among persons aged >55 years; however, the reduction in suicide by all methods was not statistically significant.”
Ban certain types of firearms. Between 1994 and 2004, the United States had a federal assault weapons ban, which prohibited the manufacturing of semi-automatic weapons for civilian use. That law had a sunset provision and lapsed during President George W. Bush’s presidency. Congressional attempts to reauthorize the law have never received a floor vote.
Local governments have also tried banning specific types of firearms, most notably the District of Columbia’s handgun ban, which the Supreme Court overturned in 2008 as violating the Second Amendment.
A study by the Department of Justice found that, after the ban, the share of gun crimes declined by 17 to 72 percent across the cities they studied (Baltimore, Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, St. Louis, and Anchorage). That decline, however, was largely offset by increased use of “large-capacity magazines,” firearms that hold 30 or more rounds of ammunition. Those manufactured prior to 1994 were exempt to from the law.
“The failure to reduce LCM [large capacity magazine] use has likely been due to the immense stock of exempted pre-ban magazines, which has been enhanced by recent imports,” the authors conclude.
An Australian gun reform law in 1996, which took pre-ban guns off the market as well, looks to have had more striking effects. Researchers in the British Medical Journal write that it was “followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides.”
Increase waiting periods. A handful of states have established waiting periods for obtaining a firearm, some lasting as long as two weeks (and some as short as two days). The idea is to create a “cool-down” period for the potential gun buyer. The federal government could, via legislation, set up a similar, national waiting period.
Researchers looked at the Brady Act’s five-day waiting period, which was in place 1994 through 1998, when it was eliminated by instantaneous background checks. Publishing in the Journal of the American Medical Association, they found the waiting periods to be “associated with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for persons aged 55 years or older but not with reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates.”
Increase public health funding. Researchers have recently begun to look at public health approaches to reducing gun violence. CureViolence, a Chicago-based non-profit, uses outreach workers to try an interrupt gun violence, much like public health workers attempt to stop the transmission of disease. Their initial work has shown some success: A recent intervention in Baltimore led to a 54 percent reduction in homicides in one of the city’s most violent neighborhoods. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... look-like/
Well.
I mean, there's the COST of them.
but sure ... go ahead and do them.
I have no qualms on the face with any of them.
But know this.
The killer in this last shooting was more than likely a "psychopath" ... a personality disorder not even properly recognized by DSM, with no general consensus on symptoms or diagnoses ... that most people DO agree is VERY hard to predict or diagnose ... and the guy had no criminal record. AND HE DIDN'T BUY THE GUNS. And they were owned prior to any legislation that you would have enacted, so are therefore legal. AND, even if it wasn't, and he didn't yet own it, he could get it over the internet VERY EASILY with no tracking\tracing via "the deep internet", a "tor browser" and a pretty cursory knowledge of how to surf the web after that.
So enact ALL of those.
This would have still happened.
Period.
Not pissing on your cheerios.
Being realistic.
Something that is sorely lacked around here.
We all feel horrible about this.
Some of us just choose to THINK as well as gut-emotion react.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Well.
I mean, there's the COST of them.
but sure ... go ahead and do them.
I have no qualms on the face with any of them.
But know this.
The killer in this last shooting was more than likely a "psychopath" ... a personality disorder not even properly recognized by DSM, with no general consensus on symptoms or diagnoses ... that most people DO agree is VERY hard to predict or diagnose ... and the guy had no criminal record. AND HE DIDN'T BUY THE GUNS. And they were owned prior to any legislation that you would have enacted, so are therefore legal. AND, even if it wasn't, and he didn't yet own it, he could get it over the internet VERY EASILY with no tracking\tracing via "the deep internet", a "tor browser" and a pretty cursory knowledge of how to surf the web after that.
So enact ALL of those. This would have still happened.
Period.
Not pissing on your cheerios.
Being realistic.
Something that is sorely lacked around here.
We all feel horrible about this.
Some of us just choose to THINK as well as gut-emotion react.
I don't disagree with that at all.. And especially since 2004, the cat is a bit out of the bag with the number of assault rifles and high capacity magazines out there.
If we can stop the sale of semi automatic weapons and large clips (not just newly made ones like the assault weapons ban did), it will make it harder for people to get these weapons in the future.
There will always be avid gun collectors/traders out there, and the vast majority of them are harmless. These guns will eventually be out of circulation as these people will hold on to them.
It will make it harder for a 20 year old socially awkward kid, or a guy like the Aurora shooter who was by several accounts, a "bit off", or in this case, middle aged suburban mom to get these weapons.
Nothing will prevent this type of thing, but as the years pass, it will get harder and harder to find weapons like this, and maybe we can avoid some of these horrific situations from happening.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
this is just so fucked up. the dark energy that created all of this is not done. it will happen again & again unless we all work together and show some fucking love towards one another.
fact is our children are at risk by simply attending school. fuck it... schools will become secure like prisons. razor wire fencing, armed guards, buzzer doors, & doors with codes. this means schools will either get smaller or larger.
im all for a tiny one room school house out in the woods somewhere. but then ya look back and even a amish have shot up kids and teacher and whomever else was at that little one room school in amish country.
tonight like last-night i have candles & oil lamps aglow as well as both buddhist & hindu monks chanting. this is relaxation & tranquility for me during such rough times as these.
last-night on repeat on the stereo... chanting monks. and nag champa incense been burning for days now
the most annoying statement I have heard today 'I'm a gun owner but I'm not violent".. well either was this guy before yesterday! He didn't have a record either.. These people that do this type of things aren't career criiminals or gang members so that argument doesn't hold water at all because a person with a background check that gets denied a gun because of their record aren't the people that do this...
Adam Lanza could have said the same thing after the movie theatre shooting this year....
So all gun owners are violent people? Is that what you are saying? I am a gun owner and I am outraged by what happened yesterday. The events yesterday are beyond sick...but to point the finger at gun ownership is the easy way out.
obviously not saying that.... I'm saying that how do you vet a person like the gunman yesterday who had NEVER had a record or any inclination to be a mass murderer.. so when people say 'I'm a gun owner, but I'm not viokent'.. doesn't make sense because most of the mass murderers haven't ever been in trouble. I don't think EVERY gun owner is violent.
I'm sure that not every gun owner is a violent person. However, every gun owner sees violence as an answer.
Browsing Facebook today, I see there are people (former high school classmates. Figures.) posting in support of more guns. :roll:
I'm sure there are slews of people from towns like my hometown - filled with a high percentage of non-college educated citizens employed by the military-industrial complex - who think that more people should be armed in order to prevent another tragedy like yesterday's.
"Still, the consistency of our findings across metro and state levels strongly suggest that gun violence is not just the product of troubled or deranged individuals, as is commonly portrayed, but is both associated with and embedded within the economic and social context of places. Whether looking at the state or metro level, we find strikingly consistent associations between gun violence and key markers of socio-economic disadvantage — poverty, income, education, class, and race."
Comments
Obama mentioned praying and God in his speech yesterday.
it's also fairly well-known that mentally disturbed people don't even seek or want or follow through with the help they need.
This might be the dumbest fucking thing ever written on this board. Debating the cause of death is fucking disrespectful? You know what I think is fucking disrespectful? Not fucking talking about it and not trying to come up with a solution before this happens again and again. It's disprespectful to bury your head in the sand and pretend this guys access to guns has nothing to do with what happened. Infuckingcredible
Pandora the victim in 5, 4, 3 ,2 .....
It's incredible the pro gun people keep using this argument. NO ONE FUCKING DIED! That is the point
maybe God even if only as a means to what is good and/or some kind of semblance of peace of mind isn't such a bad idea at the present time, don't you think?
I agree that nobody need assault weapons, automatic weapons and frankly conceal/carry freaks me out to no end. This comin from somebody that's had some good times shooting them with friends.
There needs to be more accountability and it needs to be harder to get guns and ammunition. A cop can scan a barcode on my license and pull up my permanent record. It can't be that hard for something similar with gun buyers.
There needs to be psychiatric evaluations for anybody that's gonna own a gun and the doctors need to face harsh penalties for signing off on patients that commit violent crimes.
Gun dealers is probably the biggest problem. I've heard stories from my gun owning friends about dealers at gun shows. They'll setup in the parking lots afterwards and offload any unsold guns for next to nothing with little to no paper work. Wouldn't be hard to bust alot of these with the stories I've heard.
Exactly.... which means for the constitution to remain relevant, we have to take not the literal word, but the reason & intention of the constitution, which is the passage of rights to the individuals, and apply it in the context of an ever-changing society.
Same reason people own sports cars and motorcyles that can go 200mph plus. Actually if everyone thinks about it, pretty much everyone's car here can go 120-130 mph. What's the reason for that? If those sports cars were banned wouldn't that save some lives? How about everyone's car is governed to drive no faster than the speed limit? How about requiring cars with electronic kill switches installed that could be activated by police to avoid a car chase? These measures alone would save 1000's and 1000's of lives every year.
Just bringing up the fact that he mentioned God and praying.
Was I asking about cars or motorcycles? No. They actually serve a purpose, to get people places. Guns serve one purpose, to kill. I will post my question again, why does anyone need a semi-automatic/assault weapon?
Chicago 5/16/06, Chicago 5/17/06, Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Milwaukee 6/29/06, Milwaukee 6/30/06, Lollapalooza 8/5/07
Eddie Solo Milwaukee 8/19/08, Toronto 8/21/09, Chicago 8/23/09
Chicago 8/24/09, Indianapolis 5/7/10, Ed Chicago 6/29/11, Alpine Valley 9/3/11 and 9/4/11, Wrigley 7/19/13, Moline 10/18/14, Milwaukee 10/20/14
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world/asia/man-stabs-22-children-in-china.html?_r=0
Different country, different ending.
Bingo
oh. I suppose I couldn't derive in what context you were mentioning it then.
I was trying to make an analogy. But I guess to answer your question because they can. Some choose to do it for defense. Some choose to do it for sport. Some just do it to collect them. No different than any other item an individual owns. It is their right to do if they do it legally.
BTW, I just want to reinforce I don't and have never owned a weapon. To mena outlawing or severely restriciting guns is not the issue. It's a person issue.
I believe narcissism also plays a role in some of the modern day mental health issues from which some suffer. We continue to raise children that are incapable of exhibiting any level of empathy for another human being. What if this guy or others aren't truly mentally ill but because of our focus on granting every little wish and not providing a stable and disciplined environment for our children, we create generations of kids that are narcissistic and unable to grow out of a normal stage of development into a mature, empathetic adult? Couple that with ongoing exposure to violence and environmental toxins and we have created illness where it might not have otherwise existed. It's time to examine gun control laws and mental health advocacy but what about our parenting styles?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. But the animal that commited yesterdays atrocity was not the owner of the weapons. His mother was the legal owner. But I understand your point. How do we prevent something like this to happen again? With that being said....I do beleive we need to have a serious discussion of what is happening in this country. It is not only gun violence but the direction that are youth are taking. We are losing respect for one another.
That's what gets lost in this too... One thing that everyone is pretty much in agreement is that there needs to be a better focus on mental illness, and more done on that front.
But what does that mean if an adult has mental issues and doesn't want help? Do we go and arbitrarily commit people or forcefully medicate people because we think that they could snap one day?
Is that what the republicans would rather have happen instead of stricter gun control policies?
I swear, it's like bizarro world right now... The right is calling for better mental health care, more secure schools and armed police/security, etc... Instead of just facing the elephant in the room (gun control), these freedom loving small government people seem much more eager to give up more freedom, and spend more money, instead of angering campaign contributors.
Evil is out there... evil has always been there, and always will. But high capacity semi-automatic weapons are a game changer as far as what damage evil can accomplish.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I'm not picking on you DS1119 or anything, but just saying in general....based on my observations, the more far-reaching away from the subject-at-hand an argument has to go, the more as far off base it is.
I don't think it does actually. It all comes down to an individuals rights within the law.
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/12/15/c ... P0.twitter
I didn't want to cry again today at work...
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
What would ‘meaningful action’ on gun control look like?
Posted by Sarah Kliff on December 15, 2012 at 2:58 pm
In his national address late Friday, President Obama promised “meaningful action” in the wake of the Newton school shooting. The statement left many wondering whether that would entail a push for new gun-control laws. If it does, the White House would have a number of options: One study estimates there are more than 20,000 laws regulating gun ownership already in place.
Advocacy groups and think tanks have worked through a number of proposals they think could reduce gun violence in the United States. Here are a few that have received the most serious consideration.
More extensive background checks. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, passed in 1993, mandated federal background checks on individual firearms from a registered firearms seller. Between 1994 and 2007, federal data show 1.6 million gun sales were blocked by background checks, half due to felony convictions.
Gun control advocates say that there’s a big loophole here: Unlicensed gun sellers do not have to conduct the background checks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms estimated in 1999 that about a quarter of the sellers at gun shows are unlicensed, noting that “some unlicensed vendors replenish and subsequently dispose of their inventories within a matter of days, often at the same show.” Some studies estimate that about 40 percent of gun sales are made by unlicensed sellers.
Gun control supporters like the Brady campaign have pushed for national legislation that would require everyone to undergo such background checks. Rep. Carolyn McCarty (D-NY) introduced one bill, the Fix Gun Checks Act of 2011, that extends ”Brady Act background check procedures to unlicensed transferors and transferees of firearms.”
Research on whether this would reduce gun violence is, according to a CDC literature review, “inconsistent.”
“Some studies indicated decreases in violence associated with restrictions, and others indicated increases,” the CDC study concluded. “One study indicated a statistically significant reduction in the rate of suicide by firearms among persons aged >55 years; however, the reduction in suicide by all methods was not statistically significant.”
Ban certain types of firearms. Between 1994 and 2004, the United States had a federal assault weapons ban, which prohibited the manufacturing of semi-automatic weapons for civilian use. That law had a sunset provision and lapsed during President George W. Bush’s presidency. Congressional attempts to reauthorize the law have never received a floor vote.
Local governments have also tried banning specific types of firearms, most notably the District of Columbia’s handgun ban, which the Supreme Court overturned in 2008 as violating the Second Amendment.
A study by the Department of Justice found that, after the ban, the share of gun crimes declined by 17 to 72 percent across the cities they studied (Baltimore, Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, St. Louis, and Anchorage). That decline, however, was largely offset by increased use of “large-capacity magazines,” firearms that hold 30 or more rounds of ammunition. Those manufactured prior to 1994 were exempt to from the law.
“The failure to reduce LCM [large capacity magazine] use has likely been due to the immense stock of exempted pre-ban magazines, which has been enhanced by recent imports,” the authors conclude.
An Australian gun reform law in 1996, which took pre-ban guns off the market as well, looks to have had more striking effects. Researchers in the British Medical Journal write that it was “followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides.”
Increase waiting periods. A handful of states have established waiting periods for obtaining a firearm, some lasting as long as two weeks (and some as short as two days). The idea is to create a “cool-down” period for the potential gun buyer. The federal government could, via legislation, set up a similar, national waiting period.
Researchers looked at the Brady Act’s five-day waiting period, which was in place 1994 through 1998, when it was eliminated by instantaneous background checks. Publishing in the Journal of the American Medical Association, they found the waiting periods to be “associated with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for persons aged 55 years or older but not with reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates.”
Increase public health funding. Researchers have recently begun to look at public health approaches to reducing gun violence. CureViolence, a Chicago-based non-profit, uses outreach workers to try an interrupt gun violence, much like public health workers attempt to stop the transmission of disease. Their initial work has shown some success: A recent intervention in Baltimore led to a 54 percent reduction in homicides in one of the city’s most violent neighborhoods.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... look-like/
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Well.
I mean, there's the COST of them.
but sure ... go ahead and do them.
I have no qualms on the face with any of them.
But know this.
The killer in this last shooting was more than likely a "psychopath" ... a personality disorder not even properly recognized by DSM, with no general consensus on symptoms or diagnoses ... that most people DO agree is VERY hard to predict or diagnose ... and the guy had no criminal record. AND HE DIDN'T BUY THE GUNS. And they were owned prior to any legislation that you would have enacted, so are therefore legal. AND, even if it wasn't, and he didn't yet own it, he could get it over the internet VERY EASILY with no tracking\tracing via "the deep internet", a "tor browser" and a pretty cursory knowledge of how to surf the web after that.
So enact ALL of those.
This would have still happened.
Period.
Not pissing on your cheerios.
Being realistic.
Something that is sorely lacked around here.
We all feel horrible about this.
Some of us just choose to THINK as well as gut-emotion react.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I don't disagree with that at all.. And especially since 2004, the cat is a bit out of the bag with the number of assault rifles and high capacity magazines out there.
If we can stop the sale of semi automatic weapons and large clips (not just newly made ones like the assault weapons ban did), it will make it harder for people to get these weapons in the future.
There will always be avid gun collectors/traders out there, and the vast majority of them are harmless. These guns will eventually be out of circulation as these people will hold on to them.
It will make it harder for a 20 year old socially awkward kid, or a guy like the Aurora shooter who was by several accounts, a "bit off", or in this case, middle aged suburban mom to get these weapons.
Nothing will prevent this type of thing, but as the years pass, it will get harder and harder to find weapons like this, and maybe we can avoid some of these horrific situations from happening.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
fact is our children are at risk by simply attending school. fuck it... schools will become secure like prisons. razor wire fencing, armed guards, buzzer doors, & doors with codes. this means schools will either get smaller or larger.
im all for a tiny one room school house out in the woods somewhere. but then ya look back and even a amish have shot up kids and teacher and whomever else was at that little one room school in amish country.
tonight like last-night i have candles & oil lamps aglow as well as both buddhist & hindu monks chanting. this is relaxation & tranquility for me during such rough times as these.
last-night on repeat on the stereo... chanting monks. and nag champa incense been burning for days now
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I'm sure that not every gun owner is a violent person. However, every gun owner sees violence as an answer.
Browsing Facebook today, I see there are people (former high school classmates. Figures.) posting in support of more guns. :roll:
I'm sure there are slews of people from towns like my hometown - filled with a high percentage of non-college educated citizens employed by the military-industrial complex - who think that more people should be armed in order to prevent another tragedy like yesterday's.
The Atlantic has an interesting article on 'The Geography of U.S. Gun Violence'
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighb ... ence/4171/
"Still, the consistency of our findings across metro and state levels strongly suggest that gun violence is not just the product of troubled or deranged individuals, as is commonly portrayed, but is both associated with and embedded within the economic and social context of places. Whether looking at the state or metro level, we find strikingly consistent associations between gun violence and key markers of socio-economic disadvantage — poverty, income, education, class, and race."