Another shooting at a school.

vduboise

Here's a like provided by my friend on FB about a school shooting she was in 20 years ago. The article was written by the father of one of the victims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/opini ... .html?_r=0

chadwick

why is it about to get real fucking ugly up in here? please calm down. we need respect & love one another not arguing back and forth.

back on track...

lastnight i could not sleep fully sound. the first couple 2 or 3 hrs of sleep was nice but then once i woke to pee i could not get back into a deep sleep. for hrs i had racing thoughts on children being shot/murdered at the school and how the children with be haunting the school.

in fact these visions were so clear & terribly sad that i had tears & my sad thoughts & vision prevented me from sleeping so i lied there in the dark for what seemed like hrs. it was a very spiritualy draining rest.

i am looking forward to a walk through the park on this rainy saturday

petejm043

Zoso wrote:

little children were killed.. a whole classroom... the argument for more guns is a foolish, sad, cruel and evil argument. anti-gun is the way of the future.. how can we let this type of thing keep happening????? It's pure madness.

Everyone should be outraged and sad. But this would have happened with or without guns. Earlier this week a man in China walked into a school and stabbed 22 children. The world is going mad.

lukin2006

brianlux

comebackgirl wrote:

vduboise wrote:

As reports are flying around- was he really mentally ill? Or is that just an excuse we can give to wrap our minds around this tragedy. Oh, he's mentally I'll, So I'll give him a pass.

I'm sorry Pandora, but he could be just plain evil- and him AND a gun killed those people.

There was a report that his brother told police that the shooter is autistic and has a personality disorder. It's yet to be confirmed if he does in fact have a mental health diagnosis, and if so what the diagnosis is and what role it may have played in this crime. There's already so much stigma associated with autism, I'm afraid to see what else this stirs up. The personality disorder would probably have a lot more to do with a crime like this (probably a narcissistic or antisocial personality or paranoid personality disorder or a combination), perhaps compounded by an inability to empathize. Personality disorders are very chronic and can't be cured with medication. They aren't psychotic in nature. People don't have a break with reality. They know exactly what they're doing, but they just don't care. I've heard a lot of misinformation in the media already about the nature of these disorders and what should have been done. Insurance companies don't like to pay for AXIS II disorders and usually don't because they're so chronic in nature.

And I agree - a combination of those personality disorders would equate to pure evil.

This is a very good point, comebackgirl. It might be useful to look at what causes people to have these serious personality disorders. My guess it would have something to do with population crowding (a lot of research is out there on this), toxicity (decades of industrialism has put a lot of that in our food and environment), our culture's love of guns and the proliferation of violence in our media (tv, movies, etc.).

And I totally agree with your concerns for increasing the stigma of autism. Some very wonderful autistic people- Temple Grandin for example- have done wonderful things to make our world better.

redrock

petejm043 wrote:

Zoso wrote:

little children were killed.. a whole classroom... the argument for more guns is a foolish, sad, cruel and evil argument. anti-gun is the way of the future.. how can we let this type of thing keep happening????? It's pure madness.

Everyone should be outraged and sad. But this would have happened with or without guns. Earlier this week a man in China walked into a school and stabbed 22 children. The world is going mad.

Nutters/Evil - everywhere

USA - 20 children dead + 7 adults. 27 families grieving an irreplaceable loss
China - 22 children wounded - less than a dozen in hospital. 22 (or so) families scared shitless, traumatised but able to hug and kiss their kid.

Difference. Wonder why?

But yes, the world is going mad.

Zoso

petejm043 wrote:

Zoso wrote:

little children were killed.. a whole classroom... the argument for more guns is a foolish, sad, cruel and evil argument. anti-gun is the way of the future.. how can we let this type of thing keep happening????? It's pure madness.

Everyone should be outraged and sad. But this would have happened with or without guns. Earlier this week a man in China walked into a school and stabbed 22 children. The world is going mad.

but yes it's tragic also but NONE OF THEM DIED FROM THAT ATTACK... with guns no one stands a chance... their is a difference. you can do more damage with guns obviously.

fife

petejm043 wrote:

Zoso wrote:

little children were killed.. a whole classroom... the argument for more guns is a foolish, sad, cruel and evil argument. anti-gun is the way of the future.. how can we let this type of thing keep happening????? It's pure madness.

Everyone should be outraged and sad. But this would have happened with or without guns. Earlier this week a man in China walked into a school and stabbed 22 children. The world is going mad.

how do you know that this would have happen. those 22 kids all lived. these kids did not. at what point do we say "you know what massing killings might still happen if we put more restriction on gun ownership, but you know what lets try it anyway cause this way is not working either"

AndyVanSlyke

Why can't mental health checks be as routine as a physical exam? Why does one have to be on the breaking point to get help?

brianlux

vduboise wrote:

Here's a like provided by my friend on FB about a school shooting she was in 20 years ago. The article was written by the father of one of the victims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/opini ... .html?_r=0

Good article, vduboise. It contains a succinct and obvious reason these things happen:

"More horrible still — to me at least — is the inevitable lament, “How could we have let this happen?”

It is a horrible question because the answer is so simple. Make it easy for people to get guns and things like this will happen. "

(And please people, don't tag me with that "lib", "leftie" crap. This has nothing to do with labels.)

lukin2006

It's just tragic what happened .

But unfortunately nothing will change, there will be wall to wall news coverage for a few days or week, everyone will say they are outraged, everyone will say they want change, they want gun control...you know the story, then everyone moves on to the next big news story. Nothing changes, then it happens again...It is tiring every time this happens to see all the people come out and say he must be mentally ill, really...thats always a given to me.

The mother must have known her son was sick...so what was she doing with these type of weapons? Thats the question I would like to know. And how did he get a hold of them? Hopefully his brother and dad provide answers to this.

Just sad, very sad.

brianlux

AndyVanSlyke wrote:

Why can't mental health checks be as routine as a physical exam? Why does one have to be on the breaking point to get help?

Because (at least here in America) mental health carries a stigma with it. Anyone who has had a 5150 (mandatory 72 hour lock down hold in a Psychiatric Health Facility) will tell you that. If the kidney are ailing or the heart is failing, we lavish empathy. The the brain is ailing we turn away.

chadwick

yes this is straight up evil. fuck being crazy. this dude had a demon come visit his most internal self, blood. bat shit crazy? could be. but evil trumps bat shit nut jobs even if for a moment. this is evil.

evil evil evil evil evil.

no one murders children like this without the helping hands of satan. this is profoundly reprehensible to the highest order.

other descriptive words....
deplorable
unjustifiable
sickening
vile
...the list goes on

this fucker's soul is not doing well... currently

in my line of thinking/beliefs there will be children playing in the playground
swinging swings
jungle gym/monkey bars
4 square and whatnot
children will be laughing and playing as they do at recees
the trouble is no physical children will be present

this place will be eerie
riddled with wondering spirits
this is my belief

petejm043

fife wrote:

petejm043 wrote:

Zoso wrote:

little children were killed.. a whole classroom... the argument for more guns is a foolish, sad, cruel and evil argument. anti-gun is the way of the future.. how can we let this type of thing keep happening????? It's pure madness.

Everyone should be outraged and sad. But this would have happened with or without guns. Earlier this week a man in China walked into a school and stabbed 22 children. The world is going mad.

how do you know that this would have happen. those 22 kids all lived. these kids did not. at what point do we say "you know what massing killings might still happen if we put more restriction on gun ownership, but you know what lets try it anyway cause this way is not working either"

The point is that the world is going crazier every day. A nut job will go to any means to cause damage. Those 22 children in China did live but the intentions of the incident in China were meant to cause the same harm as yesterdays. We do need to have a conversation about what is going on in this country when it comes to violence. But to come out and say lets take away gun rights is not the way to go.

Who Princess

brianlux wrote:

AndyVanSlyke wrote:

Why can't mental health checks be as routine as a physical exam? Why does one have to be on the breaking point to get help?

Because (at least here in America) mental health carries a stigma with it. Anyone who has had a 5150 (mandatory 72 hour lock down hold in a Psychiatric Health Facility) will tell you that. If the kidney are ailing or the heart is failing, we lavish empathy. The the brain is ailing we turn away.

While stigma has gradually lessened over the last century, it's amazing how many people don't consider mental disorders "real." "It's something that people fake to get out of doing work or an excuse so they won't be convicted of a crime." It's not visible so people aren't aware of its prevalence. There's also very little understanding of the different disorders and how they cause people to act.

I think most people see mental health and mental illness as an either/or state. I think it's more like a continuum, where no one is 100% mentally health and no one is 100% mentally ill. As comeback girl said, people with personality disorders often won't appear to meet our definitions of mentally ill, but their behavior will go against what most of us consider "normal." People like con artists don't feel remorse for stealing from other people. They have a personality that keeps them from feeling empathy for others.

I don't know what was going on with the shooter in this case. We may never know. We can speculate all day but until we have more information, I think it's fruitless. I'm especially bothered by all the blaming of his family. "Didn't his mother see something was wrong with him?" "Why did his family abandon him?" "Shouldn't his mother have gotten rid of the guns?" Blah blah woof woof. The blame goes on the shooter.

brianlux

chadwick wrote:

yes this is straight up evil. fuck being crazy. this dude had a demon come visit his most internal self, blood. bat shit crazy? could be. but evil trumps bat shit nut jobs even if for a moment. this is evil.

evil evil evil evil evil.

no one murders children like this without the helping hands of satan. this is profoundly reprehensible to the highest order.

other descriptive words....
deplorable
unjustifiable
sickening
vile
...the list goes on

this fucker's soul is not doing well... currently

in my line of thinking/beliefs there will be children playing in the playground
swinging swings
jungle gym/monkey bars
4 square and whatnot
children will be laughing and playing as they do at recees
the trouble is no physical children will be present

this place will be eerie
riddled with wondering spirits
this is my belief

It is evil, Chadwick. There is so much evil in the world today- it breaks my heart. My first thought is- it wasn't always this way. I went to elementary school in the 50's. No one heard of this shit then. But on the other hand, we had duck and cover routines- drills where we were told "if you ever see a REALLY bright light go off outside that means an atom bomb has exploded so don't look at it or you'll go blind and get under you desk so you don't get blown to smithereens".

We've got to step back- way back, maybe even 10,000 years- and regain our sense.

AndyVanSlyke

Who Princess wrote:

brianlux wrote:

AndyVanSlyke wrote:

Why can't mental health checks be as routine as a physical exam? Why does one have to be on the breaking point to get help?

Because (at least here in America) mental health carries a stigma with it. Anyone who has had a 5150 (mandatory 72 hour lock down hold in a Psychiatric Health Facility) will tell you that. If the kidney are ailing or the heart is failing, we lavish empathy. The the brain is ailing we turn away.

While stigma has gradually lessened over the last century, it's amazing how many people don't consider mental disorders "real." "It's something that people fake to get out of doing work or an excuse so they won't be convicted of a crime." It's not visible so people aren't aware of its prevalence. There's also very little understanding of the different disorders and how they cause people to act.

I think most people see mental health and mental illness as an either/or state. I think it's more like a continuum, where no one is 100% mentally health and no one is 100% mentally ill. As comeback girl said, people with personality disorders often won't appear to meet our definitions of mentally ill, but their behavior will go against what most of us consider "normal." People like con artists don't feel remorse for stealing from other people. They have a personality that keeps them from feeling empathy for others.

I don't know what was going on with the shooter in this case. We may never know. We can speculate all day but until we have more information, I think it's fruitless. I'm especially bothered by all the blaming of his family. "Didn't his mother see something was wrong with him?" "Why did his family abandon him?" "Shouldn't his mother have gotten rid of the guns?" Blah blah woof woof. The blame goes on the shooter.

I agree with both of you. Mental health is so complicated. And in a society where expressing how you feel is often looked at as a "weakness", people would rather suck it up then get help. I know I've been guilty of it.

Jeanwah

Shock value. That's what this is about, because all potential mass murderers know that they will have fame the minute they do something even more shocking than the last mass murdere/coward. The media, once again, glorifies a tragedy by attempting to dissect the killer. Exactly what he wanted: his name in lights, dramatic worldly attention. It doesn't matter that he's gone. He got what he wanted didn't he?

And I'm going against the grain, this isn't about gun control, this is about DRAMA and the need for attention. People are sick! But we've got to forget this guy who did it, and focus on our families, protecting our kids, and showing love to each other, not this bullshit hate that comes from a tragedy. F- all of you fighting about gun control. More and more this country is getting worse and worse because of the division among the population. And F- you to all the gun toting owners. This is not about rights, it's about the dangerous society that's existing in this country - worst country for crime in the world - because of the increasing number of sick people owning weapons and being proud of it.

How horribly awful for those parents. How horribly awful that we need to fight as a result.

brianlux

Who Princess wrote:

I think most people see mental health and mental illness as an either/or state. I think it's more like a continuum, where no one is 100% mentally health and no one is 100% mentally ill.

Good point, Who Princess. The scale used to describe what you're saying is called "The Global Assessment of Functioning", a numeric scale of 0 to 100. It's used to assess the social, occupational, and psychological functioning of adults. We all know about reading our temperature or blood pressure but mental assessments are less known (or hidden even).

comebackgirl

Who Princess wrote:

While stigma has gradually lessened over the last century, it's amazing how many people don't consider mental disorders "real." "It's something that people fake to get out of doing work or an excuse so they won't be convicted of a crime." It's not visible so people aren't aware of its prevalence. There's also very little understanding of the different disorders and how they cause people to act.

I think most people see mental health and mental illness as an either/or state. I think it's more like a continuum, where no one is 100% mentally health and no one is 100% mentally ill. As comeback girl said, people with personality disorders often won't appear to meet our definitions of mentally ill, but their behavior will go against what most of us consider "normal." People like con artists don't feel remorse for stealing from other people. They have a personality that keeps them from feeling empathy for others.

I don't know what was going on with the shooter in this case. We may never know. We can speculate all day but until we have more information, I think it's fruitless. I'm especially bothered by all the blaming of his family. "Didn't his mother see something was wrong with him?" "Why did his family abandon him?" "Shouldn't his mother have gotten rid of the guns?" Blah blah woof woof. The blame goes on the shooter.

Really well said Who Princess. The blame absolutely rests with the shooter. This may have been less about some illness he was suffering from, and more about just who he was as a person, not some acute illness that his mother should have been aware of and if she had gotten him treatment would have made his functioning any different. The diagnoses he is reported to have had wouldn't lead to a break with reality, and no medication would have provided a cure. As redrock said on another thread, people jump to this because it makes it easier to make sense of. Asperger's doesn't lead people to commit this kind of horror.

Jeanwah wrote:

Shock value. That's what this is about, because all potential mass murderers know that they will have fame the minute they do something even more shocking than the last mass murdere/coward. The media, once again, glorifies a tragedy by attempting to dissect the killer. Exactly what he wanted: his name in lights, dramatic worldly attention. It doesn't matter that he's gone. He got what he wanted didn't he?

And I'm going against the grain, this isn't about gun control, this is about DRAMA and the need for attention. People are sick! But we've got to forget this guy who did it, and focus on our families, protecting our kids, and showing love to each other, not this bullshit hate that comes from a tragedy. F- all of you fighting about gun control. More and more this country is getting worse and worse because of the division among the population. And F- you to all the gun toting owners. This is not about rights, it's about the dangerous society that's existing in this country - worst country for crime in the world - because of the increasing number of sick people owning weapons and being proud of it.

How horribly awful for those parents. How horribly awful that we need to fight as a result.

I couldn't have said it better.