What Are People's Motivation To Outlaw Guns In The US?

DS1119

PJ_Soul wrote:

Most illegal weapons were legal before they weren't.

Could not be further from the truth! Holy shit! :fp:

DS1119

DS1119 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Most illegal weapons were legal before they weren't.

Could not be further from the truth! Holy shit! :fp:

And to elaborate on this further. Even if your statement is true, even though it couldn't be further from it, let's say every illegal weapon in the US was once a legally owned weapon. Shouldn't we be concentrating on the criminals stealing/acquiring these weapons instead of infringing on the law abiding citizen's right to own them?

PJ_Soul

DS1119 wrote:

Jason P wrote:

DS1119 wrote:

It appears your number includes suicide. That's a ridiculous number to even consider in a gun issue. If someone wants to kill themselves they will with or without a gun.


Here's the real numbers.


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

I forgot that people blowing their own heads off isn't a problem. :fp:

If you want to get technical on the cause of death, let me know how many of the auto deaths were intentional or caused by impaired driving.

Then we can see which is the bigger problem and focus on it, just like you have preached.

:geek:

People determined to take their own lives is not a gun issue. They will do it with or without a gun.

That I agree with. If they didn't have a gun, they'd just find another way. Suicide by gun is not my concern at all.

PJ_Soul

DS1119 wrote:

DS1119 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Most illegal weapons were legal before they weren't.

Could not be further from the truth! Holy shit! :fp:

And to elaborate on this further. Even if your statement is true, even though it couldn't be further from it, let's say every illegal weapon in the US was once a legally owned weapon. Shouldn't we be concentrating on the criminals stealing/acquiring these weapons instead of infringing on the law abiding citizen's right to own them?

Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.

PJ_Soul

DS1119 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

I did google them, and found the FBI's numbers. Maybe they are wrong, but I'd be curious to know where yours are from.

I'm gonna go with the numbers that the FBI posted!

Suicides are not a gun issue.

Ummm... I know. Why did you say this here?

pandora

blackredyellow wrote:

pandora wrote:

What's with the assault rifles jamming?

A couple at least of the most recent mass shootings this happened.
Has been said it could have been far worse if the gunmen had been armed
with something different, something that did not jam.

Could this be that the gunmen don't know the correct way to use them...
no practice to insure effectiveness ? Or is this common with these type of guns?

I would guess... You often hear that the shooter bought the gun a few weeks or months before the shooting. Likely there wasn't a lot of practice or experience during this time. Just from my experiences, it seems guns work smoother after being "broken in" a bit. All of the mechanical moving parts seem to loosen up a little after some use.

I try to imagine being in this mindset, planning, purchasing, preparing.
What has brought the person to this point. Disappointment, frustration, anger, hate....
none of the above. Very different then the spur of the moment action reaction or even
crime for profit or out of need.

I guess it's a good thing the guns are likely to jam. The weapon of choice could actually
be much more deadly while looking and seeming more innocent,
if there is such a thing with a gun.
When someone gets to this point, I think, a weapon will be found and used.
Next we will hear about hand grenades and bombs I suppose.
The fact of life is none of us know how we will die or when. Just try to be the one
who never takes another life with you.

JonnyPistachio

I'd be willing to bet most gun accidents concerning children were with legally owned firearms, of which there are more than enough every year.

I will freely admit that illegally owner firearms are a bigger problem (obviously), but I disagree that legally owned firearms are not an issue when I see children accidentally shot on a regular basis and mass shootings every few months with legally owned guns. Now this is not an argument -- this is purely opinion. I know DS, you dont think its a problem unless something like 30,000 kids are killed with legally owned guns, but I think its a problem if its one kid a month, and its ongoing. Thats just how I feel, its not an agenda, and its not meant for anyone to agree with...I just see it as a problem, plain and simple.

JonnyPistachio

There have been many studies that suggest that guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in accidents or crimes than to be used in self-defense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.
Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG.
Source: Center for Injury Control, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, GA, USA.

OBJECTIVE:
Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.
METHODS:
We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.
RESULTS:
During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
CONCLUSIONS:
Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

Jason P

DS1119 wrote:

Now take out of the gun homicides the number of people killed by illegal firearms vs legal firearms. This is the problem that comes up. People think that regulating legal guns will stop the issue with guns. Couldn't be the furthest thing from the truth. It's not a legal gun problem...it's an illegal gun problem.

Where do the illegal guns come from? Are they crossing the border in the night and being picked up at comfort stations?

Or are they filtering through a local industry that lacks regulation?

:think:

Jason P

A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.

Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?

:think:

JonnyPistachio

Jason P wrote:

A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.

Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?

:think:

Once pot is legal nationwide, we can let all the people with pot convictions out of prison, freeing up some space -- then we can start putting illegal gun traffickers and sellers away for much, much longer...thats another law that should have a heftier penalty.

MotoDC

MayDay10 wrote:

i dont understand why people need this:


when the amendment was written with this in mind

The 2nd amendment was written with the purpose of allowing civilian citizens to form a militia to resist the potential tyranny of their own government. If we were really evaluating this amendment honestly and fully, we'd have to allow citizens to own tanks and bazookas and stealth bombers.

w00t

Anyhow, since tanks and bazookas and stealth bombers are a bit beyond the pale, we are left to define in this modern era just where that line should be drawn. 9mm pistols and bolt-action hunting rifles just aren't a reasonable standard around which to form a militia.

pandora

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I'd be willing to bet most gun accidents concerning children were with legally owned firearms, of which there are more than enough every year.

I will freely admit that illegally owner firearms are a bigger problem (obviously), but I disagree that legally owned firearms are not an issue when I see children accidentally shot on a regular basis and mass shootings every few months with legally owned guns. Now this is not an argument -- this is purely opinion. I know DS, you dont think its a problem unless something like 30,000 kids are killed with legally owned guns, but I think its a problem if its one kid a month, and its ongoing. Thats just how I feel, its not an agenda, and its not meant for anyone to agree with...I just see it as a problem, plain and simple.

Did you see the news on kids dying or being injured from flat screen TV's falling on them?
Crazy numbers.

I think most people are more responsible with guns it seems then common household dangers.
We have a huge problem here with kids being struck by cars... really :?
That should be a thing of the past. I witness parents not holding their children's hands
in parking lots all the time.

DS1119

PJ_Soul wrote:

Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.

Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.

And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?

DS1119

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I'd be willing to bet most gun accidents concerning children were with legally owned firearms, of which there are more than enough every year.

I will freely admit that illegally owner firearms are a bigger problem (obviously), but I disagree that legally owned firearms are not an issue when I see children accidentally shot on a regular basis and mass shootings every few months with legally owned guns. Now this is not an argument -- this is purely opinion. I know DS, you dont think its a problem unless something like 30,000 kids are killed with legally owned guns, but I think its a problem if its one kid a month, and its ongoing. Thats just how I feel, its not an agenda, and its not meant for anyone to agree with...I just see it as a problem, plain and simple.

So even if it's 10 kids a month. How does further regulating gun ownership change this? It doesn't. How many kids accidentally drown in a pool each year? I bet it's higher than the number of kids accidentally killed by guns. Actually, I know it's higher. What those situations come down to is bad parenting...not legal gun ownership.

keeponrockin

Howabout this then.

Anyone caught using or in posession of a firearm illegally, whether it be unliscenced, not stored properly, or not registered to them, is put in jail for 5 years.

Would you agree with this?

DS1119

JonnyPistachio wrote:

There have been many studies that suggest that guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in accidents or crimes than to be used in self-defense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.
Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG.
Source: Center for Injury Control, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, GA, USA.

OBJECTIVE:
Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.
METHODS:
We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.
RESULTS:
During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
CONCLUSIONS:
Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

They need to include in the study the number of guns never involved in any incident but to provide the home owner with a level of protection. They need to involve in the study the firearms that are used for sport. They need to include in the study the number of guns owned by collectors. they also need to include in the study the number of guns owned by people who just want to own a gun because its their right as a US citizen.

I'm sure this study will never come out.

fife

DS1119 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.

Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.

And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?

can you give me a link that shows that most illegal guns come from China please.

DS1119

Jason P wrote:

A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.

Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?

:think:

Well there you go. It's not a legal gun issue. It's an illegal gun issue.

keeponrockin

DS1119 wrote:

Jason P wrote:

A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.

Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?

:think:

Well there you go. It's not a legal gun issue. It's an illegal gun issue.

So why not my idea, anyone caught with an illegal gun in jail for 5 years. No ifs ands or buts. Illegal weapon, 5 years in jail. Anyone caught selling weapons illegally, 20.