A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.
Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?
:think:
Once pot is legal nationwide, we can let all the people with pot convictions out of prison, freeing up some space -- then we can start putting illegal gun traffickers and sellers away for much, much longer...thats another law that should have a heftier penalty.
The 2nd amendment was written with the purpose of allowing civilian citizens to form a militia to resist the potential tyranny of their own government. If we were really evaluating this amendment honestly and fully, we'd have to allow citizens to own tanks and bazookas and stealth bombers.
w00t
Anyhow, since tanks and bazookas and stealth bombers are a bit beyond the pale, we are left to define in this modern era just where that line should be drawn. 9mm pistols and bolt-action hunting rifles just aren't a reasonable standard around which to form a militia.
I'd be willing to bet most gun accidents concerning children were with legally owned firearms, of which there are more than enough every year.
I will freely admit that illegally owner firearms are a bigger problem (obviously), but I disagree that legally owned firearms are not an issue when I see children accidentally shot on a regular basis and mass shootings every few months with legally owned guns. Now this is not an argument -- this is purely opinion. I know DS, you dont think its a problem unless something like 30,000 kids are killed with legally owned guns, but I think its a problem if its one kid a month, and its ongoing. Thats just how I feel, its not an agenda, and its not meant for anyone to agree with...I just see it as a problem, plain and simple.
Did you see the news on kids dying or being injured from flat screen TV's falling on them?
Crazy numbers.
I think most people are more responsible with guns it seems then common household dangers.
We have a huge problem here with kids being struck by cars... really :?
That should be a thing of the past. I witness parents not holding their children's hands
in parking lots all the time.
Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.
Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.
And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?
I'd be willing to bet most gun accidents concerning children were with legally owned firearms, of which there are more than enough every year.
I will freely admit that illegally owner firearms are a bigger problem (obviously), but I disagree that legally owned firearms are not an issue when I see children accidentally shot on a regular basis and mass shootings every few months with legally owned guns. Now this is not an argument -- this is purely opinion. I know DS, you dont think its a problem unless something like 30,000 kids are killed with legally owned guns, but I think its a problem if its one kid a month, and its ongoing. Thats just how I feel, its not an agenda, and its not meant for anyone to agree with...I just see it as a problem, plain and simple.
So even if it's 10 kids a month. How does further regulating gun ownership change this? It doesn't. How many kids accidentally drown in a pool each year? I bet it's higher than the number of kids accidentally killed by guns. Actually, I know it's higher. What those situations come down to is bad parenting...not legal gun ownership.
Anyone caught using or in posession of a firearm illegally, whether it be unliscenced, not stored properly, or not registered to them, is put in jail for 5 years.
Would you agree with this?
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
There have been many studies that suggest that guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in accidents or crimes than to be used in self-defense.
Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.
Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG.
Source: Center for Injury Control, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, GA, USA.
OBJECTIVE:
Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.
METHODS:
We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.
RESULTS:
During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
CONCLUSIONS:
Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
They need to include in the study the number of guns never involved in any incident but to provide the home owner with a level of protection. They need to involve in the study the firearms that are used for sport. They need to include in the study the number of guns owned by collectors. they also need to include in the study the number of guns owned by people who just want to own a gun because its their right as a US citizen.
Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.
Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.
And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?
can you give me a link that shows that most illegal guns come from China please.
A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.
Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?
:think:
Well there you go. It's not a legal gun issue. It's an illegal gun issue.
So why not my idea, anyone caught with an illegal gun in jail for 5 years. No ifs ands or buts. Illegal weapon, 5 years in jail. Anyone caught selling weapons illegally, 20.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Anyone caught using or in posession of a firearm illegally, whether it be unliscenced, not stored properly, or not registered to them, is put in jail for 5 years.
A lot of the guns used in crime in Chicago are legally bought in Indiana (A NRA super favorite state) and then sold illegally in Chicago.
Why don't the re-sellers save gas money and buy the guns in Illinois instead of traveling across state borders?
:think:
Well there you go. It's not a legal gun issue. It's an illegal gun issue.
So why not my idea, anyone caught with an illegal gun in jail for 5 years. No ifs ands or buts. Illegal weapon, 5 years in jail. Anyone caught selling weapons illegally, 20.
Again sure. I'm all for attacking and stopping illegal guns.
Anyone caught using or in posession of a firearm illegally, whether it be unliscenced, not stored properly, or not registered to them, is put in jail for 5 years.
Would you agree with this?
Sure. Why wouldn't I support that?
I don't know.
Something tells me though that many on the right would start screaming about 'taking away our rights'.
Do you think guns are getting into the hands of criminals too easily? Why are they in the hands of criminals more easily than other countries?
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I'd be willing to bet most gun accidents concerning children were with legally owned firearms, of which there are more than enough every year.
I will freely admit that illegally owner firearms are a bigger problem (obviously), but I disagree that legally owned firearms are not an issue when I see children accidentally shot on a regular basis and mass shootings every few months with legally owned guns. Now this is not an argument -- this is purely opinion. I know DS, you dont think its a problem unless something like 30,000 kids are killed with legally owned guns, but I think its a problem if its one kid a month, and its ongoing. Thats just how I feel, its not an agenda, and its not meant for anyone to agree with...I just see it as a problem, plain and simple.
So even if it's 10 kids a month. How does further regulating gun ownership change this? It doesn't. How many kids accidentally drown in a pool each year? I bet it's higher than the number of kids accidentally killed by guns. Actually, I know it's higher. What those situations come down to is bad parenting...not legal gun ownership.
My point was that I disagree that saying legal guns is a non-issue. shooting in AZ and colorado for instance...It starts with our gun culture, and yes it extends to poor parenting, and it goes right on down the road to some (not all,...not many in fact) that are irresponsible. If you made all the regulations a little more stringent (such as wait period and background checks), you might weed out some of those lazy, irresponsible parents from going through the trouble to buy a gun, when they really didnt need it in the first place, but they went out and bought one because it was so easy. And perhaps there should be required gun safety classes when you purchase a gun. You do have to pass a drivers test to get a drivers license.
Pools, yeah, terrible tragedies for kids sometimes, especially here in Florida, start another thread...multitasking.
I like the idea of anyone caught with an illegal gun = immediate jail time...shit, make it 10 years.
Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.
Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.
And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?
can you give me a link that shows that most illegal guns come from China please.
I'm referencing "assault" type weapons and I guess should have clarified. The ones that get everyone panties in a bind. Just google it.
Anyone caught using or in posession of a firearm illegally, whether it be unliscenced, not stored properly, or not registered to them, is put in jail for 5 years.
Would you agree with this?
Sure. Why wouldn't I support that?
I don't know.
Something tells me though that many on the right would start screaming about 'taking away our rights'.
Do you think guns are getting into the hands of criminals too easily? Why are they in the hands of criminals more easily than other countries?
They need to include in the study the number of guns never involved in any incident but to provide the home owner with a level of protection. They need to involve in the study the firearms that are used for sport. They need to include in the study the number of guns owned by collectors. they also need to include in the study the number of guns owned by people who just want to own a gun because its their right as a US citizen.
I'm sure this study will never come out.
But what point does that prove? That some guns are being used dangerously, but not all guns are? That doesn't help the discussion. It merely points out, well, that some guns are being used dangerously but not all guns are. So what?
You can't win the argument that 11,000+ gun murders (68% of all homicides; sorry, I'm going with FBI's numbers over gunpolicy.org) in a given year isn't a problem. You can't win the argument that guns - legal or illegal - being used to commit crimes isn't a problem. Guns are used a disproportionate amount of the time to commit violent crimes. There's ample evidence of that. So how do we keep guns out of the wrong people's hands? Because whatever's in place right now isn't working.
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Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.
Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.
And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?
Well, all the recent mass shootings, for instance. I know that for you "tons of deaths" has to be in the tends of thousands or something, but most people I think have a much smaller number in mind.
As for illegal WEAPONS shipping from china. Most are NOT guns, but, rather, shit like stun guns and batons. There is actually a HUGE trade in tasers/stun guns shipped from China. Apparently customs can barely keep up with it. Huge illegal GUN trade from China? No.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Why do you say it couldn't be farther from the truth?? Where do you think most illegal guns come from? Straight from the manufacturer or retailer to the criminal? Over the Mexican border?
And a lot of the time they hit the illegal market because the legal owners sell them, not only because they are stolen.
Also, there are tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons. Most of the mass shootings are committed using legally owned weapons, for instance, and almost all accidental gun deaths are from legally owned guns.
Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.
And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?
can you give me a link that shows that most illegal guns come from China please.
I'm referencing "assault" type weapons and I guess should have clarified. The ones that get everyone panties in a bind. Just google it.[/quote]
I actually did google it but didn't find anything and since you stated that its a fact i would assume that it would be easy to find.
My point was that I disagree that saying legal guns is a non-issue. shooting in AZ and colorado for instance...It starts with our gun culture, and yes it extends to poor parenting, and it goes right on down the road to some (not all,...not many in fact) that are irresponsible. If you made all the regulations a little more stringent (such as wait period and background checks), you might weed out some of those lazy, irresponsible parents from going through the trouble to buy a gun, when they really didnt need it in the first place, but they went out and bought one because it was so easy. And perhaps there should be required gun safety classes when you purchase a gun. You do have to pass a drivers test to get a drivers license.
Pools, yeah, terrible tragedies for kids sometimes, especially here in Florida, start another thread...multitasking.
I like the idea of anyone caught with an illegal gun = immediate jail time...shit, make it 10 years.
With all due respect, you fall into the "I believe the media hype" segment. You site these isolated incidents in AZ and Colorado...while tragic...are that, isolated incidents. When will the stories come out in the paper about of of the guns owned in this country today that had zero issues. All of the 99.999999% of weapons owned that will never kill anyone or even be fired at anyone. The media concentrates on these small situations and blows them up.
What if a kid falls down the steps carrying scissors and kills himself. Tragic but what can you do? God forbid that happened twice in one week...the fucking media would blow this out of proportion in leading people to believe it's some fucking epidemic and we should regulate scissor sales. :fp: :fp:
There have been many studies that suggest that guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in accidents or crimes than to be used in self-defense.
Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home.
Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG.
Source: Center for Injury Control, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, GA, USA.
OBJECTIVE:
Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.
METHODS:
We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.
RESULTS:
During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
CONCLUSIONS:
Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
They need to include in the study the number of guns never involved in any incident but to provide the home owner with a level of protection. They need to involve in the study the firearms that are used for sport. They need to include in the study the number of guns owned by collectors. they also need to include in the study the number of guns owned by people who just want to own a gun because its their right as a US citizen.
I'm sure this study will never come out.
No they don't. Its a study conducted by a university, they can do what they want.
You really dont like to focus on the point of any one specific thing do you?
This is a fact: of 626 specific shootings in a variety of demographics over a year period, they showed results that are common among most incidences (of which many were likely legally owned guns). Just because its not 30,000 incidences, doesnt make it unimportant. Just because there are a zillion guns out there, doesnt make it unimportant.
The statistics prove time and again, that when a gun is used, its often not for its intended purpose, legal or not.
They need to include in the study the number of guns never involved in any incident but to provide the home owner with a level of protection. They need to involve in the study the firearms that are used for sport. They need to include in the study the number of guns owned by collectors. they also need to include in the study the number of guns owned by people who just want to own a gun because its their right as a US citizen.
I'm sure this study will never come out.
But what point does that prove? That some guns are being used dangerously, but not all guns are? That doesn't help the discussion. It merely points out, well, that some guns are being used dangerously but not all guns are. So what?
You can't win the argument that 11,000+ gun murders (68% of all homicides; sorry, I'm going with FBI's numbers over gunpolicy.org) in a given year isn't a problem. You can't win the argument that guns - legal or illegal - being used to commit crimes isn't a problem. Guns are used a disproportionate amount of the time to commit violent crimes. There's ample evidence of that. So how do we keep guns out of the wrong people's hands? Because whatever's in place right now isn't working.
Again take out of those homicides people who legally owned a weapon and were protecting themselves, police action, and illegally owned weapons. 9000...11000 whatever someone wants to believe out of 314,000,000 million people?? Huge huge huge problem.
Again take out of those homicides people who legally owned a weapon and were protecting themselves, police action, and illegally owned weapons. 9000...11000 whatever someone wants to believe out of 314,000,000 million people?? Huge huge huge problem.
OK, but once again, comparing XXXX of murders to XXXX of people living isn't helpful at all. It's not even logical. We're debating whether gun murders are a problem, not situations in which guns don't result in deaths. To ascertain whether gun murders are a problem, you need to compare the number of gun murders to the total number murders out there.
By your logic and use of numbers, any kind of murder isn't a problem, because hey, only some 17,000 people were murdered and there are 314,000,000 in the U.S.!
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No they don't. Its a study conducted by a university, they can do what they want.
You really dont like to focus on the point of any one specific thing do you?
This is a fact: of 626 specific shootings in a variety of demographics over a year period, they showed results that are common among most incidences (of which many were likely legally owned guns). Just because its not 30,000 incidences, doesnt make it unimportant. Just because there are a zillion guns out there, doesnt make it unimportant.
The statistics prove time and again, that when a gun is used, its often not for its intended purpose, legal or not.
Actually, this is unimportant. Studies that analyze illegal gun ownership in any numbers, will always lead results toward the end result that guns must be the issue. They were illegal in the first place.
I guess I could always do a study of 626 cases of people going to a firing range and I could report zero instances of any injured or no crimes committed. That study would hold about as much water as the one you posted.
Again take out of those homicides people who legally owned a weapon and were protecting themselves, police action, and illegally owned weapons. 9000...11000 whatever someone wants to believe out of 314,000,000 million people?? Huge huge huge problem.
OK, but once again, comparing XXXX of murders to XXXX of people living isn't helpful at all. It's not even logical. We're debating whether gun murders are a problem, not situations in which guns don't result in deaths. To ascertain whether gun murders are a problem, you need to compare the number of gun murders to the total number murders out there.
By your logic and use of numbers, any kind of murder isn't a problem, because hey, only some 17,000 people were murdered and there are 314,000,000 in the U.S.!
Again....Illegal gun ownership is a problem...not legal gun ownership.
My point was that I disagree that saying legal guns is a non-issue. shooting in AZ and colorado for instance...It starts with our gun culture, and yes it extends to poor parenting, and it goes right on down the road to some (not all,...not many in fact) that are irresponsible. If you made all the regulations a little more stringent (such as wait period and background checks), you might weed out some of those lazy, irresponsible parents from going through the trouble to buy a gun, when they really didnt need it in the first place, but they went out and bought one because it was so easy. And perhaps there should be required gun safety classes when you purchase a gun. You do have to pass a drivers test to get a drivers license.
Pools, yeah, terrible tragedies for kids sometimes, especially here in Florida, start another thread...multitasking.
I like the idea of anyone caught with an illegal gun = immediate jail time...shit, make it 10 years.
With all due respect, you fall into the "I believe the media hype" segment. You site these isolated incidents in AZ and Colorado...while tragic...are that, isolated incidents. When will the stories come out in the paper about of of the guns owned in this country today that had zero issues. All of the 99.999999% of weapons owned that will never kill anyone or even be fired at anyone. The media concentrates on these small situations and blows them up.
What if a kid falls down the steps carrying scissors and kills himself. Tragic but what can you do? God forbid that happened twice in one week...the fucking media would blow this out of proportion in leading people to believe it's some fucking epidemic and we should regulate scissor sales. :fp: :fp:
Az, and Co -- Those were high profile examples, yes, but there are boatloads of more cases of legal guns being a problem. We're obviously never going to agree because you think since thousands of people dying is a small percentage of gun owners so it doesnt matter...but I dont care about the proportion. Because nobody suffers through the regulations i've proposed. And I dont care about the proportion because I think our gun culture is out of control and there are nearly more guns than people in the US I think, so proportions are out the window simply because its out of control...I care more about innocent individual lives that could be saved through some simple changes/compromises. I figure it cant hurt to try something new because LOTS of people are dying senselessly. (see here I go again, I said I actually want to save lives, and thats exactly what I mean, I'm not pushing some stupid agenda so I can get elected.)
You can use proportions all you want to justify thousands of people dying if you wish.
For the record. I don't own a gun and I never will. I just find it funny how people get so lost in what the problem with guns actually is in this country. How they want to over regulate an industry and lawful citizens who participate in that industry for their hate for guns. Pumping up this "huge problem" to push their own personal agendas.
Fuck, the media could start printing stories about how harmful the color fucking brown is and enough stories later people will be rallying for "brown regualtions" or lets "ban brown". It's laughable and almost sad at the same time.
For the record. I don't own a gun and I never will. I just find it funny how people get so lost in what the problem with guns actually is in this country. How they want to over regulate an industry and lawful citizens who participate in that industry for their hate for guns. Pumping up this "huge problem" to push their own personal agendas.
Fuck, the media could start printing stories about how harmful the color fucking brown is and enough stories later people will be rallying for "brown regualtions" or lets "ban brown". It's laughable and almost sad at the same time.
When thousands of people die from brown inflicted wounds, then maybe.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Az, and Co -- Those were high profile examples, yes, but there are boatloads of more cases of legal guns being a problem. We're obviously never going to agree because you think since thousands of people dying is a small percentage of gun owners so it doesnt matter...but I dont care about the proportion. Because nobody suffers through the regulations i've proposed. And I dont care about the proportion because I think our gun culture is out of control and there are nearly more guns than people in the US I think, so proportions are out the window simply because its out of control...I care more about innocent individual lives that could be saved through some simple changes/compromises. I figure it cant hurt to try something new because LOTS of people are dying senselessly. (see here I go again, I said I actually want to save lives, and thats exactly what I mean, I'm not pushing some stupid agenda so I can get elected.)
You can use proportions all you want to justify thousands of people dying if you wish.
And yet you use words like "boatloads" when it comes to legal gun ownership and deaths from those.
And if you don't care about proportions but just "saving lives" wouldn't you worry about the bigger issues first? Like I sadi before cigarettes and alcohol kill more people in this country per year than 100 years of leagal gun ownership could even come close to so why not concentrate on that issue?
Comments
Once pot is legal nationwide, we can let all the people with pot convictions out of prison, freeing up some space -- then we can start putting illegal gun traffickers and sellers away for much, much longer...thats another law that should have a heftier penalty.
w00t
Anyhow, since tanks and bazookas and stealth bombers are a bit beyond the pale, we are left to define in this modern era just where that line should be drawn. 9mm pistols and bolt-action hunting rifles just aren't a reasonable standard around which to form a militia.
Crazy numbers.
I think most people are more responsible with guns it seems then common household dangers.
We have a huge problem here with kids being struck by cars... really :?
That should be a thing of the past. I witness parents not holding their children's hands
in parking lots all the time.
Most illegal weapons come from China. Illegally. Fact.
And what do you consider to be "tons of gun deaths caused by legal weapons"?
So even if it's 10 kids a month. How does further regulating gun ownership change this? It doesn't. How many kids accidentally drown in a pool each year? I bet it's higher than the number of kids accidentally killed by guns. Actually, I know it's higher. What those situations come down to is bad parenting...not legal gun ownership.
Anyone caught using or in posession of a firearm illegally, whether it be unliscenced, not stored properly, or not registered to them, is put in jail for 5 years.
Would you agree with this?
They need to include in the study the number of guns never involved in any incident but to provide the home owner with a level of protection. They need to involve in the study the firearms that are used for sport. They need to include in the study the number of guns owned by collectors. they also need to include in the study the number of guns owned by people who just want to own a gun because its their right as a US citizen.
I'm sure this study will never come out.
can you give me a link that shows that most illegal guns come from China please.
Well there you go. It's not a legal gun issue. It's an illegal gun issue.
Sure. Why wouldn't I support that?
Again sure. I'm all for attacking and stopping illegal guns.
Something tells me though that many on the right would start screaming about 'taking away our rights'.
Do you think guns are getting into the hands of criminals too easily? Why are they in the hands of criminals more easily than other countries?
My point was that I disagree that saying legal guns is a non-issue. shooting in AZ and colorado for instance...It starts with our gun culture, and yes it extends to poor parenting, and it goes right on down the road to some (not all,...not many in fact) that are irresponsible. If you made all the regulations a little more stringent (such as wait period and background checks), you might weed out some of those lazy, irresponsible parents from going through the trouble to buy a gun, when they really didnt need it in the first place, but they went out and bought one because it was so easy. And perhaps there should be required gun safety classes when you purchase a gun. You do have to pass a drivers test to get a drivers license.
Pools, yeah, terrible tragedies for kids sometimes, especially here in Florida, start another thread...multitasking.
I like the idea of anyone caught with an illegal gun = immediate jail time...shit, make it 10 years.
I'm referencing "assault" type weapons and I guess should have clarified. The ones that get everyone panties in a bind. Just google it.
No I would not.
But what point does that prove? That some guns are being used dangerously, but not all guns are? That doesn't help the discussion. It merely points out, well, that some guns are being used dangerously but not all guns are. So what?
You can't win the argument that 11,000+ gun murders (68% of all homicides; sorry, I'm going with FBI's numbers over gunpolicy.org) in a given year isn't a problem. You can't win the argument that guns - legal or illegal - being used to commit crimes isn't a problem. Guns are used a disproportionate amount of the time to commit violent crimes. There's ample evidence of that. So how do we keep guns out of the wrong people's hands? Because whatever's in place right now isn't working.
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As for illegal WEAPONS shipping from china. Most are NOT guns, but, rather, shit like stun guns and batons. There is actually a HUGE trade in tasers/stun guns shipped from China. Apparently customs can barely keep up with it. Huge illegal GUN trade from China? No.
I'm referencing "assault" type weapons and I guess should have clarified. The ones that get everyone panties in a bind. Just google it.[/quote]
I actually did google it but didn't find anything and since you stated that its a fact i would assume that it would be easy to find.
With all due respect, you fall into the "I believe the media hype" segment. You site these isolated incidents in AZ and Colorado...while tragic...are that, isolated incidents. When will the stories come out in the paper about of of the guns owned in this country today that had zero issues. All of the 99.999999% of weapons owned that will never kill anyone or even be fired at anyone. The media concentrates on these small situations and blows them up.
What if a kid falls down the steps carrying scissors and kills himself. Tragic but what can you do? God forbid that happened twice in one week...the fucking media would blow this out of proportion in leading people to believe it's some fucking epidemic and we should regulate scissor sales. :fp: :fp:
You really dont like to focus on the point of any one specific thing do you?
This is a fact: of 626 specific shootings in a variety of demographics over a year period, they showed results that are common among most incidences (of which many were likely legally owned guns). Just because its not 30,000 incidences, doesnt make it unimportant. Just because there are a zillion guns out there, doesnt make it unimportant.
The statistics prove time and again, that when a gun is used, its often not for its intended purpose, legal or not.
Again take out of those homicides people who legally owned a weapon and were protecting themselves, police action, and illegally owned weapons. 9000...11000 whatever someone wants to believe out of 314,000,000 million people?? Huge huge huge problem.
OK, but once again, comparing XXXX of murders to XXXX of people living isn't helpful at all. It's not even logical. We're debating whether gun murders are a problem, not situations in which guns don't result in deaths. To ascertain whether gun murders are a problem, you need to compare the number of gun murders to the total number murders out there.
By your logic and use of numbers, any kind of murder isn't a problem, because hey, only some 17,000 people were murdered and there are 314,000,000 in the U.S.!
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Actually, this is unimportant. Studies that analyze illegal gun ownership in any numbers, will always lead results toward the end result that guns must be the issue. They were illegal in the first place.
I guess I could always do a study of 626 cases of people going to a firing range and I could report zero instances of any injured or no crimes committed. That study would hold about as much water as the one you posted.
Again....Illegal gun ownership is a problem...not legal gun ownership.
Az, and Co -- Those were high profile examples, yes, but there are boatloads of more cases of legal guns being a problem. We're obviously never going to agree because you think since thousands of people dying is a small percentage of gun owners so it doesnt matter...but I dont care about the proportion. Because nobody suffers through the regulations i've proposed. And I dont care about the proportion because I think our gun culture is out of control and there are nearly more guns than people in the US I think, so proportions are out the window simply because its out of control...I care more about innocent individual lives that could be saved through some simple changes/compromises. I figure it cant hurt to try something new because LOTS of people are dying senselessly. (see here I go again, I said I actually want to save lives, and thats exactly what I mean, I'm not pushing some stupid agenda so I can get elected.)
You can use proportions all you want to justify thousands of people dying if you wish.
Fuck, the media could start printing stories about how harmful the color fucking brown is and enough stories later people will be rallying for "brown regualtions" or lets "ban brown". It's laughable and almost sad at the same time.
And yet you use words like "boatloads" when it comes to legal gun ownership and deaths from those.
And if you don't care about proportions but just "saving lives" wouldn't you worry about the bigger issues first? Like I sadi before cigarettes and alcohol kill more people in this country per year than 100 years of leagal gun ownership could even come close to so why not concentrate on that issue?