A Year In Jail For Not Believing in God? Oh, Kentucky.

PJ_Soul

Horos wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

"Explained by science" doesn't mean it's actually been explained, just that science is the explanation - is behind whatever is happening - whether we know that science or not.

So you mean you have FAITH in science?

:think: I guess you could say that ... but not in the same way people have faith in God, just by nature of what science is vs what God is (in concept).

redrock

Horos wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

"Explained by science" doesn't mean it's actually been explained, just that science is the explanation - is behind whatever is happening - whether we know that science or not.

So you mean you have FAITH in science?

Faith is a belief that is not based in proof whereas science is. So I guess one can't really have faith in science.

redrock

PJ_Soul wrote:

"Explained by science" doesn't mean it's actually been explained, just that science is the explanation - is behind whatever is happening - whether we know that science or not.
I feel that you are actually extremely close-minded to the beliefs and mindset surrounding Atheism, actually. More so than anyone seems to be about others beliefs about God.
PS - I say this not as an argument starter, but a true observation: you seem to manage to tell people that they lack empathy inn pretty much every thread you post in - it's occurred to me that you might be translating your personal feelings of not always being understood or agreed with into the perception that everyone lacks empathy, but who knows. But here it's coming off that you actually are lacking empathy for atheists and their points of view and their feelings within this world. You really tend to assume that somehow we are at a lower level of understanding or something. So that's why I found this post of yours strange.

I get you PJ_Soul... the response given to a post questioning what can be construed as a miracle (ie critical thinking which is the broadest and most open minded way of looking at something) is a bit OTT. Also, I really don't see where critical thinking can be '..cynical skepticism and bias based in religion', especially when it comes to a subject like this one. On the contrary - I would say if there's any 'cynical skepticism and bias' when it comes to miracles it would certainly not be based in religion!

A conclusion of 'critical thinking' can go any way.. I really don't see what the problem is if one does not want to accept blindly what is put in front of them but would rather 'research' before making up their mind.

Blind faith is not, and has never been an option for me and for most people I know. Seeking, critical thinking, etc. has been the path and has led to many, diverse destinations. Some of which have not been reached yet and may never be reached because the 'answer' could be 'I don't know'.

PJ_Soul

redrock wrote:

Horos wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

"Explained by science" doesn't mean it's actually been explained, just that science is the explanation - is behind whatever is happening - whether we know that science or not.

So you mean you have FAITH in science?

Faith is a belief that is not based in proof whereas science is. So I guess one can't really have faith in science.

Yeah, but he means I have faith that science is behind stuff that hasn't been explained... this is nothing like faith in God of course, since science has been proven to be behind everything we do know but once didn't, and is therefore logically behind that which we don't yet know as well, and that's aided with scientific theory as well. But technically, it IS still a brand of faith to assume that those processes in the world/universe that have yet to be explained are processes based in science.... kind of. Until each of those things are actually scientifically explained, at which point that quasi-faith becomes actual knowledge.

redrock

Ah OK PJ_Soul, I understand what was meant. Extrapolating!

Another issue that has become clear - some theists seem to believe that atheists have NO beliefs, ie if one doesn't believe in god, one can't really believe in anything else but what is tangible and logic.

Which, of course, is not true. Atheists can follow very spiritual paths - sometimes more so than theists. If one looks at the simple example of those following the Buddhist philosophy (note - not religion) - they are atheists.

Atheism is not as simple as 'not believing in gods'. And is not 'closed' at all.

pandora

Horos wrote:

pandora wrote:

Horos wrote:

Don't come to AMT and post much. I do like to read it though.

Reading this topic my first question is why those who don't believe in a god continue to use the honorific capital G?

I do see this is a discussion about a god and not religions.

My life experiences seem the reverse of Ps. I was indoctrinated as a youth. Now as an adult with 3 grown children I have seen the effects of allowing freedom of beliefs in my children. They have always been free to attend any type of service. 2 of them I would call Agnostic and the other is firmly Atheist.

I understand the concept of god you are presenting Pandora but think it follows more of a Buddhist philosophy. I am curious about how you celebrate this god. Did/do you attend services? Did/do you take your children to these services?

I have no problem seeing outside the box and I can see the connectivity that exists in nature. Since the beginning of man unexplained phenomena have been attributed to gods. Eventually these things were explained but the indoctrination of a higher power had already been achieved.

I have first hand seen the good and evil the human animal has done and I am not impressed. The oneness of the planet would be better served with fewer of us.

Concerning the original topic.....that's just ridiculous in a modern society.

I do not attend services nor did I offer my children indoctrination.
I was an atheist until age 40,
did not attend church but living in the deep South my children have attended with friends
and have been put off by what they experienced. My daughter especially.

This is not to offend anyone but it was in respect to gay rights, the freedom to be gay.
My daughter, as myself feel no one should be discriminated against
nor be made to feel God will not love them or accept them due to who they are.
Some of the church youth groups do not have this mindset.

My belief in our individual paths means I do not make any requirements of them.
As a Mom, all I want is personal happiness and peace for them,
realizing this is often grown into whatever one's choice are.

I do not celebrate God, I feel it is more of cherish God ...
everyday.
It is a presence, an energy, a force now within me, as much apart of me
as my lifetime experiences and those I love. It was a profound experience
I had that gave me God, there is a reason for this and I am grateful.

I have researched Buddism, found it intriguing but it put no spell on me
I have found no religion to fit what I am experiencing in my life
nor what my beliefs are, perhaps this is all telling but I believe there are many who feel this way.
I only know God and knowing God has changed my life, very much for the better.

As always, thanks for sharing Horos

And as always I respect your opinion.

And you've certainly provided some food for thought.

Oh some might say junk food gotta keep a sense of humor in these parts
but thank you much ...
respect is wonderful validation, not something any of us take lightly,
one that is earned and kept close to the heart. It is very freeing ...
a free to be me

pandora

Wilds wrote:

Is it possible that personal visions or miracles are simply some type of mental illness where the person can't distinguish between having a mental episode and "talking" to god?

Also I know Pandora (or at least I think I remember) that her "miracle" is not one she is willing to share on here.

Perhaps if she would share it would help us understand her mindset?

Heck, it might even convince someone that Miracles do happen?


And to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone of having a mental episode. Just my general belief in what might constitute a vision etc.

If someone wants to believe in their personal idea of what god is, that is cool with me. Have at it.

I love your last comment ... it is also cool with me if someone does not believe.

hmmm ... visions do they come true ... are they reality?
If it follows in the daily news does that make something true?

I can't nor can anyone else convince someone miracles happen,
most especially nonbelievers.
Unexplained phenomenon, the logical mind might except ...
being based perhaps in an unknown science.
Miracle implies religion... for many here they have sworn off God and religion
and are no longer free to believe.

Really one must live it to believe.
But I have found some understanding open hearts and some who have experienced similar events.

No I am not willing to share here but that does not mean I do not share.
Through my life's path I have learned my experiences I must share, this a huge part
of the why they happen and the why we are born into this world.
If we remain open to others, not cynical skeptical there is much to discover.
It starts with just listening and as you said being cool with what others are.

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

Actually there are phenomenon that remain unexplained by science. Perhaps research would do
some well here and broaden the mind.

I see a real lack of empathy, an inability to imagine experiencing unexplained phenomenon.
But then this is a personality trait. Unable to really wear another pair of shoes.
A logical mind will explain anything away but will it be the right explanation?
No, just the logical explanation.

I see cynical skepticism and bias based in religion instead of open minds
and hearts willing to say, yes maybe. Too bad for those left behind ...
this has nothing to do with religion.
It has everything to do with understanding and freeing your mind from the logical.
Very tall order or some.

Does the totem pole needs support at the bottom while others reach the sky?
Why yes it does ...
anyone can reach new heights.

"Explained by science" doesn't mean it's actually been explained, just that science is the explanation - is behind whatever is happening - whether we know that science or not.
I feel that you are actually extremely close-minded to the beliefs and mindset surrounding Atheism, actually. More so than anyone seems to be about others beliefs about God.
PS - I say this not as an argument starter, but a true observation: you seem to manage to tell people that they lack empathy inn pretty much every thread you post in - it's occurred to me that you might be translating your personal feelings of not always being understood or agreed with into the perception that everyone lacks empathy, but who knows. But here it's coming off that you actually are lacking empathy for atheists and their points of view and their feelings within this world. You really tend to assume that somehow we are at a lower level of understanding or something. So that's why I found this post of yours strange.

I was an atheist so I understand and have stood in the shoes and
along side shoes of nonbelievers.

I was speaking in my post, as color lightened to lacking empathy pertaining to
experiencing unexplained phenomenon
nothing to do with one's religion. I do feel we in particular have a disconnect...
this would be a good example.

All of us are very much free to take each others posts as strange or lovely or confusing
or whatever. I try to remain positive and share from there.
But I think taking the time to understand what is truly meant
by each poster, not putting one's own spin on it, is a necessity.

So we have established yes I understand not believing in God, I have lived it,
can you understand what it might be like to be just that...
where you are... a nonbeliever
then have events that totally changed your beliefs, the rest of your life
and beyond? Events that defy logic and are unexplainable.
If you can understand that ... hopefully feel it...
that is all I could ever hope for, a meeting of two hearts.

catefrances

redrock wrote:

Ah OK PJ_Soul, I understand what was meant. Extrapolating!

Another issue that has become clear - some theists seem to believe that atheists have NO beliefs, ie if one doesn't believe in god, one can't really believe in anything else but what is tangible and logic.

Which, of course, is not true. Atheists can follow very spiritual paths - sometimes more so than theists. If one looks at the simple example of those following the Buddhist philosophy (note - not religion) - they are atheists.

Atheism is not as simple as 'not believing in gods'. And is not 'closed' at all.

i was born questioning... it is my nature to do so... and so when someone throws the closed minded barb at atheists,asll i can do is laugh. tis as if they think because we dont believe in a god that weve stopped asking questions and seeking answers.. that the label atheist precludes us from any in depth reflection at all. and i know that is not the case with me. how about you redrock.... have you ceased to question? have you refused to seek answers??? or are you, like me, absorbing all you can in preparation for when/if those answers show up?

the philosophy that has struck me more than any religion is that of buddhism. to be able to become that enlightened being.. to not be beholden to any gods, but to attain actual buddhahood oneself.. now that is something i can understand.

redrock

Yeah... well cate it would seem it was decided that:

pandora wrote:

Both you and red rock were indoctrinated in religion which and abolished
it and in doing so you think you have abolished God from your soul..

And I guess without that, we're doomed! We can't think for ourselves.


As I said in another post: "Blind faith is not, and has never been an option for me and for most people I know. Seeking, critical thinking, etc. has been the path and has led to many, diverse destinations. Some of which have not been reached yet and may never be reached because the 'answer' could be 'I don't know'."

I have always questioned and will never cease to question - the only way to truly 'enlighten' yourself, from within.



“To Do Today, 1/17/08
1. Sit and think
2. Reach enlightenment
3. Feed the cats” ― Jarod Kintz, I Should Have Renamed This

catefrances

redrock wrote:

Yeah... well cate it would seem it was decided that:

pandora wrote:

Both you and red rock were indoctrinated in religion which and abolished
it and in doing so you think you have abolished God from your soul..

And I guess without that, we're doomed! We can't think for ourselves....

so i see.

pandora

Since I came here much has changed on the "religion" horizon,
thank God

Believers are no longer abashed though probably still outnumbered in those who engage.
Respect may not be evident yet, though many claim they respect what others believe,
so movement in the right and good direction is happening.

Something we could hope for in the real world.

There are some who seem more open to the idea that God and religion
are not one in the same. This confusion seems to be less.
That the possibility when freed from this confusion discovery can be made.

My hope we see much more of this in the real world.

Still many are confined to a logical mind that requires tangible proof
but proof is disproven as we see in the big bang theory now.
Humans journey through knowledge that changes in the logical world
with facts that are truth only in present time.

But there is a way to have knowledge when freed from this boundary.
Our minds possess powers unimaginable, possess answers to all questions,
questions that can not be answered in logic.

Those who continue to put faith in logic will continue to have that faith challenged
when disproven each time.
Faith in our oneness with our creator is where the answers lay.
Once that faith is possessed anything is possible and becomes common sense
of the heart.

If one is truly a seeker of enlightenment, born questioning,
then remove the walls of logical thinking, consider all possibilities
and experience them in this life.

mickeyrat

perhaps some have considered such things and found them lacking. perhaps some should chill the f out and let others be as they are without being rude and condescending. Then perhaps some might be more inclined to be less dismissive.maybe

pandora

mickeyrat wrote:

perhaps some have considered such things and found them lacking. perhaps some should chill the f out and let others be as they are without being rude and condescending. Then perhaps some might be more inclined to be less dismissive.maybe

hmmm ... is your post here just that?

I'm ready to accept everyone for their own beliefs how 'bout you?

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat wrote:

perhaps some have considered such things and found them lacking. perhaps some should chill the f out and let others be as they are without being rude and condescending. Then perhaps some might be more inclined to be less dismissive.maybe

:think: I think this thread has been very mellow and respectful considering the topic. Not sure where this comment comes from.

81

i can't believe anyone is defending those clowns...... :fp: