A Year In Jail For Not Believing in God? Oh, Kentucky.

riotgrl

hedonist wrote:

dancepartner wrote:

God is a term used to describe all that is omnipotent.
I do not know with certainty any more than every devout of brand X, theologian, expert or athiest but here's the key: they don't know with any more certainty than you and I do either.

Agree with this - sort of like how I think of god as nature...if there's anything I believe in, it's that.

I also agree about the lack of certainty; I believe some "believe they know", but I don't believe that they - anyone who believes or doesn't or falls in-between - CAN know...if that makes sense.

Precisely. None of us knows for certain but too many, both Christian (and most other religions) and atheists believe they KNOW.

I will also apologize for KY on behalf of those few of us that are open-minded and did not elect this boob. Just remember we have bourbon.....Maybe they were all drunk when they elected him Seriously, come to KY anytime - you guys have a place with me!

Cosmo

hedonist wrote:

dancepartner wrote:

God is a term used to describe all that is omnipotent.
I do not know with certainty any more than every devout of brand X, theologian, expert or athiest but here's the key: they don't know with any more certainty than you and I do either.

Agree with this - sort of like how I think of god as nature...if there's anything I believe in, it's that.

I also agree about the lack of certainty; I believe some "believe they know", but I don't believe that they - anyone who believes or doesn't or falls in-between - CAN know...if that makes sense.

...
I think the entire God Concept is something we can know and understand... based upon the origins of the concept. But, it remains a concept and never even enters the realm of theory.
I believe we exist within the constraints of this physical Universe and are incapable of knowing the true nature of God. Perhaps, if there was a way to go beyond the bounds of this universe, to a different level of consciousness, we may be able to understand... therefore, know the truth about God.
In order to do that, we must die and release the live energy trapped in this physical form. And no one... as far as I know... has gone the complete route to tell us the truth. Not near-death... but actual death.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

hedonist wrote:

dancepartner wrote:

God is a term used to describe all that is omnipotent.
I do not know with certainty any more than every devout of brand X, theologian, expert or athiest but here's the key: they don't know with any more certainty than you and I do either.

Agree with this - sort of like how I think of god as nature...if there's anything I believe in, it's that.

I also agree about the lack of certainty; I believe some "believe they know", but I don't believe that they - anyone who believes or doesn't or falls in-between - CAN know...if that makes sense.

...
I think the entire God Concept is something we can know and understand... based upon the origins of the concept. But, it remains a concept and never even enters the realm of theory.
I believe we exist within the constraints of this physical Universe and are incapable of knowing the true nature of God. Perhaps, if there was a way to go beyond the bounds of this universe, to a different level of consciousness, we may be able to understand... therefore, know the truth about God.
In order to do that, we must die and release the live energy trapped in this physical form. And no one... as far as I know... has gone the complete route to tell us the truth. Not near-death... but actual death.

why would a God make himself so unable to understood? if God created the heavens and the earth and everything else and before he did so nothing and nowhere existed, where was God?

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
I think the entire God Concept is something we can know and understand... based upon the origins of the concept. But, it remains a concept and never even enters the realm of theory.
I believe we exist within the constraints of this physical Universe and are incapable of knowing the true nature of God. Perhaps, if there was a way to go beyond the bounds of this universe, to a different level of consciousness, we may be able to understand... therefore, know the truth about God.
In order to do that, we must die and release the live energy trapped in this physical form. And no one... as far as I know... has gone the complete route to tell us the truth. Not near-death... but actual death.

why would a God make himself so unable to understood? if God created the heavens and the earth and everything else and before he did so nothing and nowhere existed, where was God?

...
For the record... I don't think God created anything. I believe we just live within the boundaries of Nature. The Univers (Multiverse) wasn't created... it simpy just is. We, as humans, try to place everything into terms we understand... such as beginning and end. Those concepts exist because of the physical nature of our being... in this physical universe. The truth may be... the Universe was always there and will always be there in an never-ending cycle of life-death-life... that we are too simple to comprehend.
When i say God... i'm not referring to the God of religions that thinks about things and creates them. More of something that is the very nature of existance. Something we can never fully understand and know... from the vantage point we have today... from where we stand... in the Universe... in this life... at this time.

PJ_Soul

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
I think the entire God Concept is something we can know and understand... based upon the origins of the concept. But, it remains a concept and never even enters the realm of theory.
I believe we exist within the constraints of this physical Universe and are incapable of knowing the true nature of God. Perhaps, if there was a way to go beyond the bounds of this universe, to a different level of consciousness, we may be able to understand... therefore, know the truth about God.
In order to do that, we must die and release the live energy trapped in this physical form. And no one... as far as I know... has gone the complete route to tell us the truth. Not near-death... but actual death.

why would a God make himself so unable to understood? if God created the heavens and the earth and everything else and before he did so nothing and nowhere existed, where was God?

...
For the record... I don't think God created anything. I believe we just live within the boundaries of Nature. The Univers (Multiverse) wasn't created... it simpy just is. We, as humans, try to place everything into terms we understand... such as beginning and end. Those concepts exist because of the physical nature of our being... in this physical universe. The truth may be... the Universe was always there and will always be there in an never-ending cycle of life-death-life... that we are too simple to comprehend.
When i say God... i'm not referring to the God of religions that thinks about things and creates them. More of something that is the very nature of existance. Something we can never fully understand and know.

Why say "God" then? Because God, in fact, has a pretty specific meaning. "God" does not mean whatever the hell anyone feels like defining it as. God is one thing, Nature is something else.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
I think the entire God Concept is something we can know and understand... based upon the origins of the concept. But, it remains a concept and never even enters the realm of theory.
I believe we exist within the constraints of this physical Universe and are incapable of knowing the true nature of God. Perhaps, if there was a way to go beyond the bounds of this universe, to a different level of consciousness, we may be able to understand... therefore, know the truth about God.
In order to do that, we must die and release the live energy trapped in this physical form. And no one... as far as I know... has gone the complete route to tell us the truth. Not near-death... but actual death.

why would a God make himself so unable to understood? if God created the heavens and the earth and everything else and before he did so nothing and nowhere existed, where was God?

...
For the record... I don't think God created anything. I believe we just live within the boundaries of Nature. The Univers (Multiverse) wasn't created... it simpy just is. We, as humans, try to place everything into terms we understand... such as beginning and end. Those concepts exist because of the physical nature of our being... in this physical universe. The truth may be... the Universe was always there and will always be there in an never-ending cycle of life-death-life... that we are too simple to comprehend.
When i say God... i'm not referring to the God of religions that thinks about things and creates them. More of something that is the very nature of existance. Something we can never fully understand and know... from the vantage point we have today... from where we stand... in the Universe... in this life... at this time.

im not sure the universe was always there. things come into being and die within the universe so to my logical mind it stands to reason that the universe itself began at some point. whether it looked like it does to us or had a vastly different makeup is for science to figure out. tho for me because everything i see has a life cycle im figuring so too does the universe.

i refuse to accept that humans are too simple to comprehend. nothing in our history has shown me that we are anything but complicated curious intelligent beings. if something makes no sense to us, we seek to understand it until it does make sense. i think sometimes we get a little to arrogant about some things and brush them off as being beyond our comprehension because we simply desire something to be greater than it appears. we cant explain God and so we just say its beyond our ability to comprehend. God has no physical attributes and therfore can not be explained away through science. he has no physical attributes cause he is a wholly mental entity. i dont mean that crazy people made him up just that for the believers, he resides within.

hedonist

PJ_Soul wrote:

Why say "God" then? Because God, in fact, has a pretty specific meaning. "God" does not mean whatever the hell anyone feels like defining it as. God is one thing, Nature is something else.

Eh, it works for me; it's how my definition has evolved over time and makes sense with my own version, so to speak, of spirituality. I'm sure many others don't see it that way - and that's fine.

PJ_Soul

hedonist wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Why say "God" then? Because God, in fact, has a pretty specific meaning. "God" does not mean whatever the hell anyone feels like defining it as. God is one thing, Nature is something else.

Eh, it works for me; it's how my definition has evolved over time and makes sense with my own version, so to speak, of spirituality. I'm sure many others don't see it that way - and that's fine.

Yeah, fair enough. ... It's just that I've seen this tendency so much that I think a lot of people who are in fact Atheists, but think they believe in God, when they totally don't at all. It's like people are rejecting their own Atheism... As a proud Atheist, I don't get the rejection.

catefrances

hedonist wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Why say "God" then? Because God, in fact, has a pretty specific meaning. "God" does not mean whatever the hell anyone feels like defining it as. God is one thing, Nature is something else.

Eh, it works for me; it's how my definition has evolved over time and makes sense with my own version, so to speak, of spirituality. I'm sure many others don't see it that way - and that's fine.

this concept of Nature as God as Nature is an interesting concept to me. i was born an atheist(as we all were) spent my childhood questioning(this i call my wanting to believe period) and reverted to my atheist self when i was 11 years old. consequently to me God was a very specific thing and Nature was a very specific thing. Nature was everything i saw that wasnt the result of mankind. God was something that people believed existed but for which i could find no verifiable proof. all i had to go on was anecdotal. and i could never get my head or my soul to go there. i asked questions.. i was as open as i could be.. but still nothing. now when it came to Nature... well it was all around me.. i could see it, hear it, taste it, touch it... it didnt have to prove itself to me and it never occurred to me to label Nature as God... because well Nature was Nature. when was it you started to think of Nature as God as Nature?? was it a gradual thing? has it evolved over time? was it something you absorbed from your family?

hedonist

catefrances wrote:

this concept of Nature as God as Nature is an interesting concept to me. i was born an atheist(as we all were) spent my childhood questioning(this i call my wanting to believe period) and reverted to my atheist self when i was 11 years old. consequently to me God was a very specific thing and Nature was a very specific thing. Nature was everything i saw that wasnt the result of mankind. God was something that people believed existed but for which i could find no verifiable proof. all i had to go on was anecdotal. and i could never get my head or my soul to go there. i asked questions.. i was as open as i could be.. but still nothing. now when it came to Nature... well it was all around me.. i could see it, hear it, taste it, touch it... it didnt have to prove itself to me and it never occurred to me to label Nature as God... because well Nature was Nature. when was it you started to think of Nature as God as Nature?? was it a gradual thing? has it evolved over time? was it something you absorbed from your family?

Yup, cate (and PJ_Soul)...I was raised Jewish and sort of blindly accepted the existence of god. Then hit my teens and (maybe it was part of rebelling, I don't know) rejected the concept. It just didn't make sense to me and I decided there was no god. Mid to late 30s, I guess, was when I knew I didn't - couldn't - know.

Nature - it's bigger than me, and like you said, everywhere. And it humbles me, makes me think about life on the miniscule and larger scale, about myself, about evolution, among other things. Plus, WE are nature.

catefrances

hedonist wrote:

catefrances wrote:

this concept of Nature as God as Nature is an interesting concept to me. i was born an atheist(as we all were) spent my childhood questioning(this i call my wanting to believe period) and reverted to my atheist self when i was 11 years old. consequently to me God was a very specific thing and Nature was a very specific thing. Nature was everything i saw that wasnt the result of mankind. God was something that people believed existed but for which i could find no verifiable proof. all i had to go on was anecdotal. and i could never get my head or my soul to go there. i asked questions.. i was as open as i could be.. but still nothing. now when it came to Nature... well it was all around me.. i could see it, hear it, taste it, touch it... it didnt have to prove itself to me and it never occurred to me to label Nature as God... because well Nature was Nature. when was it you started to think of Nature as God as Nature?? was it a gradual thing? has it evolved over time? was it something you absorbed from your family?

Yup, cate (and PJ_Soul)...I was raised Jewish and sort of blindly accepted the existence of god. Then hit my teens and (maybe it was part of rebelling, I don't know) rejected the concept. It just didn't make sense to me and I decided there was no god. Mid to late 30s, I guess, was when I knew I didn't - couldn't - know.

Nature - it's bigger than me, and like you said, everywhere. And it humbles me, makes me think about life on the miniscule and larger scale, about myself, about evolution, among other things. Plus, WE are nature.

that is true... we are Nature.. yet we try our darndest to live outside it. but when/how/why did you start thinking of Nature as God? why not just see Nature as Nature? did you see it as necessary to identify Nature as God? like was it just the concept of the judeo-christian God that messed with your head and so you came to see Nature as God? im not sure if im articulating correctly the questions im trying to ask of you. internet sux for this kind of conversation.

PJ_Soul

catefrances wrote:

hedonist wrote:

catefrances wrote:

this concept of Nature as God as Nature is an interesting concept to me. i was born an atheist(as we all were) spent my childhood questioning(this i call my wanting to believe period) and reverted to my atheist self when i was 11 years old. consequently to me God was a very specific thing and Nature was a very specific thing. Nature was everything i saw that wasnt the result of mankind. God was something that people believed existed but for which i could find no verifiable proof. all i had to go on was anecdotal. and i could never get my head or my soul to go there. i asked questions.. i was as open as i could be.. but still nothing. now when it came to Nature... well it was all around me.. i could see it, hear it, taste it, touch it... it didnt have to prove itself to me and it never occurred to me to label Nature as God... because well Nature was Nature. when was it you started to think of Nature as God as Nature?? was it a gradual thing? has it evolved over time? was it something you absorbed from your family?

Yup, cate (and PJ_Soul)...I was raised Jewish and sort of blindly accepted the existence of god. Then hit my teens and (maybe it was part of rebelling, I don't know) rejected the concept. It just didn't make sense to me and I decided there was no god. Mid to late 30s, I guess, was when I knew I didn't - couldn't - know.

Nature - it's bigger than me, and like you said, everywhere. And it humbles me, makes me think about life on the miniscule and larger scale, about myself, about evolution, among other things. Plus, WE are nature.

that is true... we are Nature.. yet we try our darndest to live outside it. but when/how/why did you start thinking of Nature as God? why not just see Nature as Nature? did you see it as necessary to identify Nature as God? like was it just the concept of the judeo-christian God that messed with your head and so you came to see Nature as God? im not sure if im articulating correctly the questions im trying to ask of you. internet sux for this kind of conversation.

I know exactly what you're saying, and I 100% feel the same way re the God vs Nature concept.... As far as I can tell, somehow somewhere it got into people's heads that if it's something we can't explain, it somehow needs to end with God (i.e. how did the universe begin, does infinity exist, etc.). I don't get how it goes from there to God though... perhaps we (Atheists) are just the types of people to feel more comfortable not knowing.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

im not sure the universe was always there. things come into being and die within the universe so to my logical mind it stands to reason that the universe itself began at some point. whether it looked like it does to us or had a vastly different makeup is for science to figure out. tho for me because everything i see has a life cycle im figuring so too does the universe.

i refuse to accept that humans are too simple to comprehend. nothing in our history has shown me that we are anything but complicated curious intelligent beings. if something makes no sense to us, we seek to understand it until it does make sense. i think sometimes we get a little to arrogant about some things and brush them off as being beyond our comprehension because we simply desire something to be greater than it appears. we cant explain God and so we just say its beyond our ability to comprehend. God has no physical attributes and therfore can not be explained away through science. he has no physical attributes cause he is a wholly mental entity. i dont mean that crazy people made him up just that for the believers, he resides within.

...
I should clarify what I had said...
I believe we are being restricted by our logic and reasoning because were are bound to this physical universe which operates within the laws of physics and mathematics as they pertain to this universe. We cannot comprehend things that may (or may not) exist beyond these physical constraints. We ARE capable of applying our reasoning and logic to those things that exist within the universe we exist in. But, that's not to say there are not things beyond.
I'm not saying God exists or does not exist... I'm simply saying, we don't know the answer to either question. That is the only things that we truely know about God... we don't know.

PJ_Soul

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

im not sure the universe was always there. things come into being and die within the universe so to my logical mind it stands to reason that the universe itself began at some point. whether it looked like it does to us or had a vastly different makeup is for science to figure out. tho for me because everything i see has a life cycle im figuring so too does the universe.

i refuse to accept that humans are too simple to comprehend. nothing in our history has shown me that we are anything but complicated curious intelligent beings. if something makes no sense to us, we seek to understand it until it does make sense. i think sometimes we get a little to arrogant about some things and brush them off as being beyond our comprehension because we simply desire something to be greater than it appears. we cant explain God and so we just say its beyond our ability to comprehend. God has no physical attributes and therfore can not be explained away through science. he has no physical attributes cause he is a wholly mental entity. i dont mean that crazy people made him up just that for the believers, he resides within.

...
I should clarify what I had said...
I believe we are being restricted by our logic and reasoning because were are bound to this physical universe which operates within the laws of physics and mathematics as they pertain to this universe. We cannot comprehend things that may (or may not) exist beyond these physical constraints. We ARE capable of applying our reasoning and logic to those things that exist within the universe we exist in. But, that's not to say there are not things beyond.
I'm not saying God exists or does not exist... I'm simply saying, we don't know the answer to either question. That is the only things that we truely know about God... we don't know.

Yeah, I guess... But to be honest, not really IMO. Because for me saying that is like saying that the only things we truly know about a completely fabricated fairy tale... we don't know. I mean, to me the very premise in the first place seems ludicrous... so why should I feel uncertainty, however small, about something that I believe to be absolutely ludicrous? I just can't. I can't humbly say, "I don't know." Because what I supposedly "don't know" about is just gobble gabble fucking nonsense - for me the concept itself shouldn't even exist. I know it might sound arrogant to some, but I can't be dishonest with myself for the sake of ... what? Being PC? Making people think I'm open minded enough to... what? Not stay true to my beliefs? Bah... I have been accused of being closed-minded for not allowing the possibility of God, and to that I say fuck off.

catefrances

PJ_Soul wrote:

I know exactly what you're saying, and I 100% feel the same way re the God vs Nature concept.... As far as I can tell, somehow somewhere it got into people's heads that if it's something we can't explain, it somehow needs to end with God (i.e. how did the universe begin, does infinity exist, etc.). I don't get how it goes from there to God though... perhaps we (Atheists) are just the types of people to feel more comfortable not knowing.

the God of gaps.

its not that i feel more comfortable not knowing. im way too curious a creature for that. its just that if you show me the how and why something exists then im good. if you just tell me it exists and thats it, then im gonna have some questions... and if those questions cant be answered then im gonna dismiss whatever concept youre trying to flog. i do often wonder what it is about me that is unable to take the existence of God at face/faith value. i usually just put it down to be wired differently.

Cosmo

PJ_Soul wrote:

Why say "God" then? Because God, in fact, has a pretty specific meaning. "God" does not mean whatever the hell anyone feels like defining it as. God is one thing, Nature is something else.

...
Because I'm wierd that way.
I use the term 'God' just as a reference. Nature has it's own definition and we all know Nature exists because we see it all around us... there is tangible proof that Nature exists.
God, on the other hand, is this... thing.... that is used to explain away the things we cannot explain in Nature. That's why neolithic man created gods that dragged the sun across the sky or controlled the waves or poured down rain that flooded their crops.
My use of the term, 'God' is when I reference that intangible, unknown thing that most people will associate with the God we find in the Bible.

Cosmo

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yeah, I guess... But to be honest, not really IMO. Because for me saying that is like saying that the only things we truly know about a completely fabricated fairy tale... we don't know. I mean, to me the very premise in the first place seems ludicrous... so why should I feel uncertainty, however small, about something that I believe to be absolutely ludicrous? I just can't. I can't humbly say, "I don't know." Because what I supposedly "don't know" about is just gobble gabble fucking nonsense - for me the concept itself shouldn't even exist. I know it might sound arrogant to some, but I can't be dishonest with myself for the sake of ... what? Being PC? Making people think I'm open minded enough to... what? Not stay true to my beliefs? Bah... I have been accused of being closed-minded for not allowing the possibility of God, and to that I say fuck off.

...
Even there... it is not knowledge... but, belief.
You are saying you don't believe in God (of the Bible and otherwise), right?
Or are you saying you Know, in no uncertain tems, that God does not exist? That would be knowledge.
Of the latter, you would be asked to provide proof that God does not exist... just as someone who claims to know... in no uncertain terms... that God exists would be asked to provide proof of God's existance.
Trying to prove what does not exist is very difficult. Belief... or, in this case, not believeing is something else. Belief does not require proof.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

im not sure the universe was always there. things come into being and die within the universe so to my logical mind it stands to reason that the universe itself began at some point. whether it looked like it does to us or had a vastly different makeup is for science to figure out. tho for me because everything i see has a life cycle im figuring so too does the universe.

i refuse to accept that humans are too simple to comprehend. nothing in our history has shown me that we are anything but complicated curious intelligent beings. if something makes no sense to us, we seek to understand it until it does make sense. i think sometimes we get a little to arrogant about some things and brush them off as being beyond our comprehension because we simply desire something to be greater than it appears. we cant explain God and so we just say its beyond our ability to comprehend. God has no physical attributes and therfore can not be explained away through science. he has no physical attributes cause he is a wholly mental entity. i dont mean that crazy people made him up just that for the believers, he resides within.

...
I should clarify what I had said...
I believe we are being restricted by our logic and reasoning because were are bound to this physical universe which operates within the laws of physics and mathematics as they pertain to this universe. We cannot comprehend things that may (or may not) exist beyond these physical constraints. We ARE capable of applying our reasoning and logic to those things that exist within the universe we exist in. But, that's not to say there are not things beyond.
I'm not saying God exists or does not exist... I'm simply saying, we don't know the answer to either question. That is the only things that we truely know about God... we don't know.

i can comprehend love and desire.. they exist outside the laws of physocs and mathematics. they are illogical feelings and theyre something we really have no control over. yet they are no less tangible to me than God is to other people.. yet i cant make that 'leap of faith' required to believe in the existence of God. but what i do know is, for me God doesnt exist. hes not hiding somewhere waiting for the right time to show himself. hes not testing me. i am not testing myself. he simply is non existent. nothing comes from nothing therefore God could not have created everything we know.. and he himself could not always be cause if he created all we know then where did he come from? he could not have existed in the nothing before he created everything. perhaps we have such difficulty in comprehending the concept of God cause there is nothing to comprehend?

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I know exactly what you're saying, and I 100% feel the same way re the God vs Nature concept.... As far as I can tell, somehow somewhere it got into people's heads that if it's something we can't explain, it somehow needs to end with God (i.e. how did the universe begin, does infinity exist, etc.). I don't get how it goes from there to God though... perhaps we (Atheists) are just the types of people to feel more comfortable not knowing.

the God of gaps.

its not that i feel more comfortable not knowing. im way too curious a creature for that. its just that if you show me the how and why something exists then im good. if you just tell me it exists and thats it, then im gonna have some questions... and if those questions cant be answered then im gonna dismiss whatever concept youre trying to flog. i do often wonder what it is about me that is unable to take the existence of God at face/faith value. i usually just put it down to be wired differently.

...
I have no problems with people's belief systems. I really don't care what people believe in or don't believe.
I do draw the line when belief is falsely proclaimed as truth or knowledge. Not with someone who says, 'In my heart of hearts, i know...'... because that comment is based in belief since the heart in incapable of thought, reasoning, logic. Those are emotions that ignore thought, reasoning and logic... in other words, belief.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I know exactly what you're saying, and I 100% feel the same way re the God vs Nature concept.... As far as I can tell, somehow somewhere it got into people's heads that if it's something we can't explain, it somehow needs to end with God (i.e. how did the universe begin, does infinity exist, etc.). I don't get how it goes from there to God though... perhaps we (Atheists) are just the types of people to feel more comfortable not knowing.

the God of gaps.

its not that i feel more comfortable not knowing. im way too curious a creature for that. its just that if you show me the how and why something exists then im good. if you just tell me it exists and thats it, then im gonna have some questions... and if those questions cant be answered then im gonna dismiss whatever concept youre trying to flog. i do often wonder what it is about me that is unable to take the existence of God at face/faith value. i usually just put it down to be wired differently.

...
I have no problems with people's belief systems. I really don't care what people believe in or don't believe.
I do draw the line when belief is falsely proclaimed as truth or knowledge. Not with someone who says, 'In my heart of hearts, i know...'... because that comment is based in belief since the heart in incapable of thought, reasoning, logic. Those are emotions that ignore thought, reasoning and logic... in other words, belief.

im just very curious. im fascinated by psychology and so i find belief in God/s extremely interesting. what makes one person believe in God and the next person to not believe? is their belief the result of some trauma or the result of life long indoctrination or perhaps evolution revelation? if it was the result of trauma what was it that made them turn to God and not just sort through it logically? is it illogical to even turn to God?or do some think for them it was the only logical step? tho i have many many questions and always have had, once i came to the conclusion that for me the existence of God was not a truth for me my atheism didnt waver. and that is my truth.