i can comprehend love and desire.. they exist outside the laws of physocs and mathematics. they are illogical feelings and theyre something we really have no control over. yet they are no less tangible to me than God is to other people.. yet i cant make that 'leap of faith' required to believe in the existence of God. but what i do know is, for me God doesnt exist. hes not hiding somewhere waiting for the right time to show himself. hes not testing me. i am not testing myself. he simply is non existent. nothing comes from nothing therefore God could not have created everything we know.. and he himself could not always be cause if he created all we know then where did he come from? he could not have existed in the nothing before he created everything. perhaps we have such difficulty in comprehending the concept of God cause there is nothing to comprehend?
...
Yes... we CAN understand intangibles... but, we really cannot explain them, because we really can't fully understand them.
Like love... we all know love exists because we all experience it. But, we really can't explain it. Why do I love this person, not that one? Why do you find this total stranger more desirable than that total stranger? We really can't pinpoint it, but it is there and we know it.
Personally... I believe religion does a great disservice in their portrayal of God. Religion paints God with the colors of Man... vengeful, loving, judgemental, giving, seems to do an awful lot of smiting. The God of religion is merely a reflection of Man. And remember, these gods and this God was created by Neolitihic Man and evolved from the spoken tales to the written description we find in the Bible. How much knowledge and understanding of Nature did these men possess? Not much... is right.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,713
Great discussion here and pardon me for interrupting- sometimes these thoughts come into my head and vanish almost as quickly.
It has been theorized that the universe started out as an tiny and infinitely dense mass and then-BANG- became the universe. It's also theorized that the universe eventually falls back in on itself the the whole cycle starts over. Yeah, I know this is all just theory but hang with me just a second because I'm gonna loose this. So my S.W.A.G. (scientific-wild-assed-guess) is that when all matter is in that tiny infinitely dense ball that is God (I mean, seriously, infinite=God. Makes sense, huh?) and when God takes a vacation the whole things explodes again and that is nature.
Ok, thanks, that's my two cents.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
i can comprehend love and desire.. they exist outside the laws of physocs and mathematics. they are illogical feelings and theyre something we really have no control over. yet they are no less tangible to me than God is to other people.. yet i cant make that 'leap of faith' required to believe in the existence of God. but what i do know is, for me God doesnt exist. hes not hiding somewhere waiting for the right time to show himself. hes not testing me. i am not testing myself. he simply is non existent. nothing comes from nothing therefore God could not have created everything we know.. and he himself could not always be cause if he created all we know then where did he come from? he could not have existed in the nothing before he created everything. perhaps we have such difficulty in comprehending the concept of God cause there is nothing to comprehend?
...
Yes... we CAN understand intangibles... but, we really cannot explain them, because we really can't fully understand them.
Like love... we all know love exists because we all experience it. But, we really can't explain it. Why do I love this person, not that one? Why do you find this total stranger more desirable than that total stranger? We really can't pinpoint it, but it is there and we know it.
Personally... I believe religion does a great disservice in their portrayal of God. Religion paints God with the colors of Man... vengeful, loving, judgemental, giving, seems to do an awful lot of smiting. The God of religion is merely a reflection of Man. And remember, these gods and this God was created by Neolitihic Man and evolved from the spoken tales to the written description we find in the Bible. How much knowledge and understanding of Nature did these men possess? Not much... is right.
they had as much as they needed to survive... we have much more knowledge and understanding than we need to survive. and i do not see that as being to our benefit... tho i dont necessarily see it as being detrimental either.
in saying religion does a great disservice what youre saying is Mankind does himself a great disservice... because afterall it is mankind who 'invented' religion. and to what end does he do this? what could we possibly gain from it?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Great discussion here and pardon me for interrupting- sometimes these thoughts come into my head and vanish almost as quickly.
It has been theorized that the universe started out as an tiny and infinitely dense mass and then-BANG- became the universe. It's also theorized that the universe eventually falls back in on itself the the whole cycle starts over. Yeah, I know this is all just theory but hang with me just a second because I'm gonna loose this. So my S.W.A.G. (scientific-wild-assed-guess) is that when all matter is in that tiny infinitely dense ball that is God (I mean, seriously, infinite=God. Makes sense, huh?) and when God takes a vacation the whole things explodes again and that is nature.
Ok, thanks, that's my two cents.
are you talking about the big bang being that moment of universal birth being God? if so then ive come across this concept before. i dismiss it because long before there was even a small spark of wondering where the universe came from, there was God/s. God/s were used to explain things not understood... the phases of the moon, thunder, flood, whatever it was that we didnt have the knowledge to explain. so to apply the term God to the big bang as some way of explaining what we are not yet sure of, is anathema to me... not to mention just a convenient stop gap.
oh and nothing can be infinitely dense. not even a black hole... which has mass and volume. something can be very dense, but not infinitely so.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
im just very curious. im fascinated by psychology and so i find belief in God/s extremely interesting. what makes one person believe in God and the next person to not believe? is their belief the result of some trauma or the result of life long indoctrination or perhaps evolution revelation? if it was the result of trauma what was it that made them turn to God and not just sort through it logically? is it illogical to even turn to God?or do some think for them it was the only logical step? tho i have many many questions and always have had, once i came to the conclusion that for me the existence of God was not a truth for me my atheism didnt waver. and that is my truth.
...
Curiosity is a good thing... it may have killed the cat... but, that cat probably did something stupid.
Curiosity raises questions... that may lead to answers... which may reveal truths... which can be stored as knowledge.
Regarding religion... ancient times used religions to indoctrinate armies and make it easier to kill other humans with a clear conscience. If God is on your side.. you MUST be good, therefore, you are defeating Evil... right? It was in effect in World war II when propaganda machines depicted Germans as godless atheists... even though soldiers were found carry Bibles and wearing belts that said, 'God Be Here' on the buckles. Being godless meant God was not on their side... easy to kill and sleep easy.
It continues today... look at what caring Christians... who are not evil... will say about Islam. It is easy for them to envision nuclear clouds over their homeland because, technically... they aren't 'real' people because real people are God fearing Christians. Sounds horrific to me... but, to them... it makes perfect sense. They are indoctrinated into the doctrine of their religion where belief and knowledge are one in the same.
I'm not saying it is right... because it is clearly, not right. It works both ways and religion is usually embedded into its foundation.
I'm lke you... I had too many questions when i was young and never got an answer from anyone. When questioning God... I get a lot of bullshit... not much truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Curiosity is a good thing... it may have killed the cat... but, that cat probably did something stupid.
Curiosity raises questions... that may lead to answers... which may reveal truths... which can be stored as knowledge.
Regarding religion... ancient times used religions to indoctrinate armies and make it easier to kill other humans with a clear conscience. If God is on your side.. you MUST be good, therefore, you are defeating Evil... right? It was in effect in World war II when propaganda machines depicted Germans as godless atheists... even though soldiers were found carry Bibles and wearing belts that said, 'God Be Here' on the buckles. Being godless meant God was not on their side... easy to kill and sleep easy.
It continues today... look at what caring Christians... who are not evil... will say about Islam. It is easy for them to envision nuclear clouds over their homeland because, technically... they aren't 'real' people because real people are God fearing Christians. Sounds horrific to me... but, to them... it makes perfect sense. They are indoctrinated into the doctrine of their religion where belief and knowledge are one in the same.
I'm not saying it is right... because it is clearly, not right. It works both ways and religion is usually embedded into its foundation.
I'm lke you... I had too many questions when i was young and never got an answer from anyone. When questioning God... I get a lot of bullshit... not much truth.
at the beginnings of european settlement in australia.... well actually in sydney, those of the catholic faith were not allowed to worship. if they wanted to worship then they had to attend anglican services. if they were caught worshipping in the catholic faith they were persecuted. what makes me smile even as an atheist is that now the largest church in sydney, and indeed the whole country, is a catholic cathedral. im sure the smile is me thinking of my irish ancestors.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
they had as much as they needed to survive... we have much more knowledge and understanding than we need to survive. and i do not see that as being to our benefit... tho i dont necessarily see it as being detrimental either.
in saying religion does a great disservice what youre saying is Mankind does himself a great disservice... because afterall it is mankind who 'invented' religion. and to what end does he do this? what could we possibly gain from it?
...
Yes. Mankind DOES do himself a great disservice by creating a religion in such a way.
Remember, religion was originally founded as law. Law of the societies to obey or be banished. Living in a tribe increases your chances of living... and getting laid. Gods were originally created because there needed to be something greater than the strongest man who ruled the tribe... but, was eventually going to get older and die (or typically, killed by younger, stronger men).
There is a reason why fear play such a prominent role in religion. It keeps people in line. That is why God judges and is vengeful. And He is ALWAYS watching... a perpetual peeping Tom that is going to punish you for those things you did that only you know about.
You'd think by now... we'd figure more out about the world we live in and get along a little better. Too bad... we could be great.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Yes. Mankind DOES do himself a great disservice by creating a religion in such a way.
Remember, religion was originally founded as law. Law of the societies to obey or be banished. Living in a tribe increases your chances of living... and getting laid. Gods were originally created because there needed to be something greater than the strongest man who ruled the tribe... but, was eventually going to get older and die (or typically, killed by younger, stronger men).There is a reason why fear play such a prominent role in religion. It keeps people in line. That is why God judges and is vengeful. And He is ALWAYS watching... a perpetual peeping Tom that is going to punish you for those things you did that only you know about.
You'd think by now... we'd figure more out about the world we live in and get along a little better. Too bad... we could be great.
law of the jungle. keeps the species strong... through the spread of the seed of the strong virile young buck... supposedly. mankind isnt as survivalistic as that anymore though. give me brains over brawn anyday.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I know exactly what you're saying, and I 100% feel the same way re the God vs Nature concept.... As far as I can tell, somehow somewhere it got into people's heads that if it's something we can't explain, it somehow needs to end with God (i.e. how did the universe begin, does infinity exist, etc.). I don't get how it goes from there to God though... perhaps we (Atheists) are just the types of people to feel more comfortable not knowing.
the God of gaps.
its not that i feel more comfortable not knowing. im way too curious a creature for that. its just that if you show me the how and why something exists then im good. if you just tell me it exists and thats it, then im gonna have some questions... and if those questions cant be answered then im gonna dismiss whatever concept youre trying to flog. i do often wonder what it is about me that is unable to take the existence of God at face/faith value. i usually just put it down to be wired differently.
Just to be clear, it's not that I don't WANT to know stuff... I'm just comfortable enough with not knowing to not believe in God and make the not knowing go away.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
law of the jungle. keeps the species strong... through the spread of the seed of the strong virile young buck... supposedly. mankind isnt as survivalistic as that anymore though. give me brains over brawn anyday.
...
Yet, we cling to these beliefs... derived from Men who roamed a tiny portion of the planet several thousand years ago.
I understand the basic princilpes of man made laws... don't kill, don't steal, quit banging the neighbor's wife, etc... but, it does keep us from progressing as a species as long as we divide oursleves along religious lines.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
law of the jungle. keeps the species strong... through the spread of the seed of the strong virile young buck... supposedly. mankind isnt as survivalistic as that anymore though. give me brains over brawn anyday.
...
Yet, we cling to these beliefs... derived from Men who roamed a tiny portion of the planet several thousand years ago.
I understand the basic princilpes of man made laws... don't kill, don't steal, quit banging the neighbor's wife, etc... but, it does keep us from progressing as a species as long as we divide oursleves along religious lines.
perhaps religion will be the fall of mankind. perhaps that is how it all ends... tho i hope not cause i may well become a vengeful Goddess myself if religion fucks up the world to the point of armaggedon.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Great discussion here and pardon me for interrupting- sometimes these thoughts come into my head and vanish almost as quickly.
It has been theorized that the universe started out as an tiny and infinitely dense mass and then-BANG- became the universe. It's also theorized that the universe eventually falls back in on itself the the whole cycle starts over. Yeah, I know this is all just theory but hang with me just a second because I'm gonna loose this. So my S.W.A.G. (scientific-wild-assed-guess) is that when all matter is in that tiny infinitely dense ball that is God (I mean, seriously, infinite=God. Makes sense, huh?) and when God takes a vacation the whole things explodes again and that is nature.
Ok, thanks, that's my two cents.
...
This IS a great discussion.
As for the Universe, there are theories about the existance of multiple Universes where everything in one flows through a super massive black hole to a singularity that eventually bursts into another Universe.
What we live in may be a result in a singualrity from another Universe that exploded to create our Universe. In the big picture... we are pretty insignificant and will go (from the formation of our Sun to its demise and our end) in a blink of the Universe's eye. Doesn't mean we (the atoms that make up of being) will be gone... it may just end up in the next Universe and who know where we (you and i) will end up.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
perhaps religion will be the fall of mankind. perhaps that is how it all ends... tho i hope not cause i may well become a vengeful Goddess myself if religion fucks up the world to the point of armaggedon.
...
I hope not.
And Armageddon might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since the Bible predicts Armageddon... Man creates Armageddon... then says, "See... the Bible predicted it".
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,713
Great discussion here and pardon me for interrupting- sometimes these thoughts come into my head and vanish almost as quickly.
It has been theorized that the universe started out as an tiny and infinitely dense mass and then-BANG- became the universe. It's also theorized that the universe eventually falls back in on itself the the whole cycle starts over. Yeah, I know this is all just theory but hang with me just a second because I'm gonna loose this. So my S.W.A.G. (scientific-wild-assed-guess) is that when all matter is in that tiny infinitely dense ball that is God (I mean, seriously, infinite=God. Makes sense, huh?) and when God takes a vacation the whole things explodes again and that is nature.
Ok, thanks, that's my two cents.
...
This IS a great discussion...
and you know what else... its totally fuckin' civilised.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Riotgirl said something about the bourbon might have something to do with it but we are welcome to Kentucky anytime. thanks for the invite!
Cosmo keeps hitting on belief. Actually, I think it begins at faith -- "to believe in something not proven".
A new book is out called "Proof of Heaven" written by a neurosurgeon. The premise questions whether self, "the body produces the mind" in other words "the brain produces consciousness" or if self is the other way around. Called the hard problem, nobody can prove one way or the other.
From Dancing Partners in regards to human versus machine; "It’s called consciousness. Think intuition, emotions and imagination all dancing up a storm on the top floor—probably in the cerebral cortex. Consciousness: the quality or state of being aware, especially of something within oneself. A state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition and thought. Evidently, every intricately woven intrinsic ingredient, all the how’s and the what’s fired at us, come from all parts of our body to meet up upstairs. Dissecting a brain to find the treasures of what it means to be human is like breaking into a vault. The treasures within—still remain seductively allusive as to how the cache got to the vault in the first place. This is why replicating a human well enough is the best it will ever get."
catafrance said: "perhaps religion will be the fall of mankind. perhaps that is how it all ends... tho i hope not cause i may well become a vengeful Goddess myself if religion fucks up the world to the point of Armageddon."
From DP also;
We are receptive Beings.
Religions grapple with making sense of us by adding some version of Purpose. I’m certain; no one gets to walk life’s path without pondering what’s it all about, why am I here, is there purpose but mostly—who decides? Gods, elites or our own intrinsically-stamped selves? These are loaded wonderments. St. Francis of Assisi says; “What we are looking for is rather — who is looking.” Dr. Jung says; "faith is peculiar only to mankind." Atheists say maybe this maybe that, maybe none of it matters—no one is looking. D~ tell me your thoughts on God – ask why we’re who we are.
Either way, there’s a growing consensus that because of Godly notions—faith and belief need diluted. “For the human future, our state-of-being will need to be that of a serious observer and that is to mean—other than faith.” So while we argue, label and divide ourselves over one immense pool of unknowing, please realize: God-notions reside at the very heart of whether humans should transcend our bio-selves or not.
Vital peculiarities are surely inseparable from our emotions. Faith then, is not like tonsils—it can’t be extracted as something unnecessary. Rather, we’d have to dilute the whole bundle—become robotic-like. SF ~ we were meant to live for so much more – have we lost ourselves?
If we continue on this path, I believe our sense of purpose will wane and we will indeed—lose ourselves.
im just very curious. im fascinated by psychology and so i find belief in God/s extremely interesting. what makes one person believe in God and the next person to not believe? is their belief the result of some trauma or the result of life long indoctrination or perhaps evolution revelation? if it was the result of trauma what was it that made them turn to God and not just sort through it logically? is it illogical to even turn to God?or do some think for them it was the only logical step? tho i have many many questions and always have had, once i came to the conclusion that for me the existence of God was not a truth for me my atheism didnt waver. and that is my truth.
I would say often non-belief is due to trauma. Being indoctrinated as a child, rebelling,
having family issues with that rebellion that carry into adulthood. People turn to atheism
because they do not connect nor feel the presence of God.
I use the word God for lack of a better word.
If there were no religion, absolutely no indoctrination as children,
how many would believe in a supreme being, intelligent energy, a continuing existence,
after the human body ceases?
How many would feel the connection to others, to the universe?
This is what is logical, what is common sense to believe.
Energy continues, there is no time and yes revelation, evolution it the key to
connecting. So is being open to the idea we are more than we appear,
being open to believe.
That is my viewpoint... the only thing we KNOW about God is... we don't know. And we know that NO ONE KNOWS because God (or whatever term is use) is beyond our current level of consciousness within this physical state of being. Not priests... not theologists... not Prophets... not Saints... not any human being, especially Politicians.
We have belief, hope and faith to help guide us through uncertainty... but, we have to understand that Knowledge is knowledge and is certainly not belief... just as belief is belief... not knowledge.
Unless your name starts with P.
I'll take the leap and say ends in an A
"Know" comes from education, comes from experience. Just as knowledge of any kind.
If you are not open to learn you never will. If you are not open to experience
you never will learn. If you do not learn you can not know.
This the case of these posters, I'm afraid. They are so hung up on not knowing they are
missing the chance. Free yourself to believe
I know exactly what you're saying, and I 100% feel the same way re the God vs Nature concept.... As far as I can tell, somehow somewhere it got into people's heads that if it's something we can't explain, it somehow needs to end with God (i.e. how did the universe begin, does infinity exist, etc.). I don't get how it goes from there to God though... perhaps we (Atheists) are just the types of people to feel more comfortable not knowing.
Well, that's not where I'm coming from (and I'd imagine others, too). Like I said, I DON'T know...just like you. And yet you consider yourself atheist, and I say I'm agnostic.
Hmmm....
In any event, to cate - I didn't have one of those light-bulb moments, and I wish I could explain better. It evolved over many conversations with my guy, and just...living. Seeing what's around me.
I think I'll have to come back to this and try to better articulate. It's early here!
I think the entire God Concept is something we can know and understand... based upon the origins of the concept. But, it remains a concept and never even enters the realm of theory.
I believe we exist within the constraints of this physical Universe and are incapable of knowing the true nature of God. Perhaps, if there was a way to go beyond the bounds of this universe, to a different level of consciousness, we may be able to understand... therefore, know the truth about God. In order to do that, we must die and release the live energy trapped in this physical form. And no one... as far as I know... has gone the complete route to tell us the truth. Not near-death... but actual death.
It is false to think you cannot know God without leaving this world.
We are here to know God.
Our purpose, our beings, our consciousness and especially our subconscious
is directly connected to God.
The problem is most people can not connect because of logical thinking,
conscious walls that have been built to not allow themselves to connect.
If you know energy will live on then also know you begin the journey here
not when you leave.
im just very curious. im fascinated by psychology and so i find belief in God/s extremely interesting. what makes one person believe in God and the next person to not believe? is their belief the result of some trauma or the result of life long indoctrination or perhaps evolution revelation? if it was the result of trauma what was it that made them turn to God and not just sort through it logically? is it illogical to even turn to God?or do some think for them it was the only logical step? tho i have many many questions and always have had, once i came to the conclusion that for me the existence of God was not a truth for me my atheism didnt waver. and that is my truth.
cate, I respect your views and your curiosity (rather than derision).
The old adage "there are no atheists in foxholes" is something my dad said many times to me. When he was in WWII, he on more than one occasion experienced this with his fellow fighters. Fear does things to people, albeit differently.
I'll even admit that when Danny went in for his second lung surgery and I was alone in the waiting room for hours, I was thinking "if there IS a god, please look after him and have him come through this OK".
Beliefs (and non-beliefs) for some, I think, just evolve over time and experiences. Like Cosmo said, no problem with anyone believing as they do. Just do it peacefully.
I would say often non-belief is due to trauma. Being indoctrinated as a child, rebelling,
having family issues with that rebellion that carry into adulthood. People turn to atheism
because they do not connect nor feel the presence of God.
I use the word God for lack of a better word.
Absolutely not.
Who is really in control of God's presence? Does an individual have to be (required to) be 100% open and believing in God to feel it?
Every single atheist/agnostic I know very personally (and there are many), came to their beliefs through critical thinking and how they feel about the world around them. They aren't limited by something so catty as rebellion, indoctrination or trauma.
Still, I think your "hung up" description isn't quite accurate.
Oh so hung up ... I'm the P
Some people can not understand someone knowing because they can not.
Fighting against, freeing from the logical, many choose or can not.
Many believe they must wait to know at deaths door.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,713
How about this scenario? First was there was the Spirit, then came the sun. The sun brought forth the animals and the humans came later when the beaver pulled us from lumps of clay in a pond. The order seems correct to me. In fact, this particular version of the Blackfoot creation myth makes as much sense as any to me. Unfortunately, in part, the Blackfoot believing differently got them all (in a sense) jailed for life.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
I would say often non-belief is due to trauma. Being indoctrinated as a child, rebelling,
having family issues with that rebellion that carry into adulthood. People turn to atheism
because they do not connect nor feel the presence of God.
I use the word God for lack of a better word.
Absolutely not. Who is really in control of God's presence? Does an individual have to be (required to) be 100% open and believing in God to feel it?
Every single atheist/agnostic I know very personally (and there are many), came to their beliefs through critical thinking and how they feel about the world around them. They aren't limited by something so catty as rebellion, indoctrination or trauma.
Hey Jonny,
I was directing that to Cate to answer some questions she had and yes I believe
many leave religion due to the forced nature as children to learn and find faith.
This sets people up for failure, for expecting and not receiving.
catefrances wrote:
im just very curious. im fascinated by psychology and so i find belief in God/s extremely interesting. what makes one person believe in God and the next person to not believe? is their belief the result of some trauma or the result of life long indoctrination or perhaps evolution revelation? if it was the result of trauma what was it that made them turn to God and not just sort through it logically? is it illogical to even turn to God?or do some think for them it was the only logical step? tho i have many many questions and always have had, once i came to the conclusion that for me the existence of God was not a truth for me my atheism didnt waver. and that is my truth.
Perhaps some are not honest with where their loss of belief came from.
Sometimes listening and reading between the lines one learns much about
the whys.
Critical thinking as in... ?
what one knows as fact?
Your first question ... it is not only within our control but our path to connect with God.
Comments
Yes... we CAN understand intangibles... but, we really cannot explain them, because we really can't fully understand them.
Like love... we all know love exists because we all experience it. But, we really can't explain it. Why do I love this person, not that one? Why do you find this total stranger more desirable than that total stranger? We really can't pinpoint it, but it is there and we know it.
Personally... I believe religion does a great disservice in their portrayal of God. Religion paints God with the colors of Man... vengeful, loving, judgemental, giving, seems to do an awful lot of smiting. The God of religion is merely a reflection of Man. And remember, these gods and this God was created by Neolitihic Man and evolved from the spoken tales to the written description we find in the Bible. How much knowledge and understanding of Nature did these men possess? Not much... is right.
Hail, Hail!!!
It has been theorized that the universe started out as an tiny and infinitely dense mass and then-BANG- became the universe. It's also theorized that the universe eventually falls back in on itself the the whole cycle starts over. Yeah, I know this is all just theory but hang with me just a second because I'm gonna loose this. So my S.W.A.G. (scientific-wild-assed-guess) is that when all matter is in that tiny infinitely dense ball that is God (I mean, seriously, infinite=God. Makes sense, huh?) and when God takes a vacation the whole things explodes again and that is nature.
Ok, thanks, that's my two cents.
they had as much as they needed to survive... we have much more knowledge and understanding than we need to survive. and i do not see that as being to our benefit... tho i dont necessarily see it as being detrimental either.
in saying religion does a great disservice what youre saying is Mankind does himself a great disservice... because afterall it is mankind who 'invented' religion. and to what end does he do this? what could we possibly gain from it?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
are you talking about the big bang being that moment of universal birth being God? if so then ive come across this concept before. i dismiss it because long before there was even a small spark of wondering where the universe came from, there was God/s. God/s were used to explain things not understood... the phases of the moon, thunder, flood, whatever it was that we didnt have the knowledge to explain. so to apply the term God to the big bang as some way of explaining what we are not yet sure of, is anathema to me... not to mention just a convenient stop gap.
oh and nothing can be infinitely dense. not even a black hole... which has mass and volume. something can be very dense, but not infinitely so.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Curiosity is a good thing... it may have killed the cat... but, that cat probably did something stupid.
Curiosity raises questions... that may lead to answers... which may reveal truths... which can be stored as knowledge.
Regarding religion... ancient times used religions to indoctrinate armies and make it easier to kill other humans with a clear conscience. If God is on your side.. you MUST be good, therefore, you are defeating Evil... right? It was in effect in World war II when propaganda machines depicted Germans as godless atheists... even though soldiers were found carry Bibles and wearing belts that said, 'God Be Here' on the buckles. Being godless meant God was not on their side... easy to kill and sleep easy.
It continues today... look at what caring Christians... who are not evil... will say about Islam. It is easy for them to envision nuclear clouds over their homeland because, technically... they aren't 'real' people because real people are God fearing Christians. Sounds horrific to me... but, to them... it makes perfect sense. They are indoctrinated into the doctrine of their religion where belief and knowledge are one in the same.
I'm not saying it is right... because it is clearly, not right. It works both ways and religion is usually embedded into its foundation.
I'm lke you... I had too many questions when i was young and never got an answer from anyone. When questioning God... I get a lot of bullshit... not much truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
at the beginnings of european settlement in australia.... well actually in sydney, those of the catholic faith were not allowed to worship. if they wanted to worship then they had to attend anglican services. if they were caught worshipping in the catholic faith they were persecuted. what makes me smile even as an atheist is that now the largest church in sydney, and indeed the whole country, is a catholic cathedral. im sure the smile is me thinking of my irish ancestors.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yes. Mankind DOES do himself a great disservice by creating a religion in such a way.
Remember, religion was originally founded as law. Law of the societies to obey or be banished. Living in a tribe increases your chances of living... and getting laid. Gods were originally created because there needed to be something greater than the strongest man who ruled the tribe... but, was eventually going to get older and die (or typically, killed by younger, stronger men).
There is a reason why fear play such a prominent role in religion. It keeps people in line. That is why God judges and is vengeful. And He is ALWAYS watching... a perpetual peeping Tom that is going to punish you for those things you did that only you know about.
You'd think by now... we'd figure more out about the world we live in and get along a little better. Too bad... we could be great.
Hail, Hail!!!
law of the jungle. keeps the species strong... through the spread of the seed of the strong virile young buck... supposedly. mankind isnt as survivalistic as that anymore though. give me brains over brawn anyday.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Just to be clear, it's not that I don't WANT to know stuff... I'm just comfortable enough with not knowing to not believe in God and make the not knowing go away.
Yet, we cling to these beliefs... derived from Men who roamed a tiny portion of the planet several thousand years ago.
I understand the basic princilpes of man made laws... don't kill, don't steal, quit banging the neighbor's wife, etc... but, it does keep us from progressing as a species as long as we divide oursleves along religious lines.
Hail, Hail!!!
perhaps religion will be the fall of mankind. perhaps that is how it all ends... tho i hope not cause i may well become a vengeful Goddess myself if religion fucks up the world to the point of armaggedon.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This IS a great discussion.
As for the Universe, there are theories about the existance of multiple Universes where everything in one flows through a super massive black hole to a singularity that eventually bursts into another Universe.
What we live in may be a result in a singualrity from another Universe that exploded to create our Universe. In the big picture... we are pretty insignificant and will go (from the formation of our Sun to its demise and our end) in a blink of the Universe's eye. Doesn't mean we (the atoms that make up of being) will be gone... it may just end up in the next Universe and who know where we (you and i) will end up.
Hail, Hail!!!
I hope not.
And Armageddon might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since the Bible predicts Armageddon... Man creates Armageddon... then says, "See... the Bible predicted it".
Hail, Hail!!!
With all due respect, Ma'am- bullshit:
and you know what else... its totally fuckin' civilised.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Cosmo keeps hitting on belief. Actually, I think it begins at faith -- "to believe in something not proven".
A new book is out called "Proof of Heaven" written by a neurosurgeon. The premise questions whether self, "the body produces the mind" in other words "the brain produces consciousness" or if self is the other way around. Called the hard problem, nobody can prove one way or the other.
From Dancing Partners in regards to human versus machine; "It’s called consciousness. Think intuition, emotions and imagination all dancing up a storm on the top floor—probably in the cerebral cortex. Consciousness: the quality or state of being aware, especially of something within oneself. A state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition and thought. Evidently, every intricately woven intrinsic ingredient, all the how’s and the what’s fired at us, come from all parts of our body to meet up upstairs. Dissecting a brain to find the treasures of what it means to be human is like breaking into a vault. The treasures within—still remain seductively allusive as to how the cache got to the vault in the first place. This is why replicating a human well enough is the best it will ever get."
catafrance said: "perhaps religion will be the fall of mankind. perhaps that is how it all ends... tho i hope not cause i may well become a vengeful Goddess myself if religion fucks up the world to the point of Armageddon."
From DP also;
We are receptive Beings.
Religions grapple with making sense of us by adding some version of Purpose. I’m certain; no one gets to walk life’s path without pondering what’s it all about, why am I here, is there purpose but mostly—who decides? Gods, elites or our own intrinsically-stamped selves? These are loaded wonderments. St. Francis of Assisi says; “What we are looking for is rather — who is looking.” Dr. Jung says; "faith is peculiar only to mankind." Atheists say maybe this maybe that, maybe none of it matters—no one is looking. D~ tell me your thoughts on God – ask why we’re who we are.
Either way, there’s a growing consensus that because of Godly notions—faith and belief need diluted. “For the human future, our state-of-being will need to be that of a serious observer and that is to mean—other than faith.” So while we argue, label and divide ourselves over one immense pool of unknowing, please realize: God-notions reside at the very heart of whether humans should transcend our bio-selves or not.
Vital peculiarities are surely inseparable from our emotions. Faith then, is not like tonsils—it can’t be extracted as something unnecessary. Rather, we’d have to dilute the whole bundle—become robotic-like.
SF ~ we were meant to live for so much more – have we lost ourselves?
If we continue on this path, I believe our sense of purpose will wane and we will indeed—lose ourselves.
having family issues with that rebellion that carry into adulthood. People turn to atheism
because they do not connect nor feel the presence of God.
I use the word God for lack of a better word.
If there were no religion, absolutely no indoctrination as children,
how many would believe in a supreme being, intelligent energy, a continuing existence,
after the human body ceases?
How many would feel the connection to others, to the universe?
This is what is logical, what is common sense to believe.
Energy continues, there is no time and yes revelation, evolution it the key to
connecting. So is being open to the idea we are more than we appear,
being open to believe.
"Know" comes from education, comes from experience. Just as knowledge of any kind.
If you are not open to learn you never will. If you are not open to experience
you never will learn. If you do not learn you can not know.
This the case of these posters, I'm afraid. They are so hung up on not knowing they are
missing the chance. Free yourself to believe
Is it that...
you can not call anything God because God failed you and you failed God?
Hmmm....
In any event, to cate - I didn't have one of those light-bulb moments, and I wish I could explain better. It evolved over many conversations with my guy, and just...living. Seeing what's around me.
I think I'll have to come back to this and try to better articulate. It's early here!
We are here to know God.
Our purpose, our beings, our consciousness and especially our subconscious
is directly connected to God.
The problem is most people can not connect because of logical thinking,
conscious walls that have been built to not allow themselves to connect.
If you know energy will live on then also know you begin the journey here
not when you leave.
The old adage "there are no atheists in foxholes" is something my dad said many times to me. When he was in WWII, he on more than one occasion experienced this with his fellow fighters. Fear does things to people, albeit differently.
I'll even admit that when Danny went in for his second lung surgery and I was alone in the waiting room for hours, I was thinking "if there IS a god, please look after him and have him come through this OK".
Beliefs (and non-beliefs) for some, I think, just evolve over time and experiences. Like Cosmo said, no problem with anyone believing as they do. Just do it peacefully.
I'm not hung up on anything.
I'm at peace, and I am fucking FREE.
So there
And have you hear about the 12 year old genius who is working on disproving the theory
along with many other scientists
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/a-beaut ... -big-bang/
we have so much to learn ...
Absolutely not.
Who is really in control of God's presence? Does an individual have to be (required to) be 100% open and believing in God to feel it?
Every single atheist/agnostic I know very personally (and there are many), came to their beliefs through critical thinking and how they feel about the world around them. They aren't limited by something so catty as rebellion, indoctrination or trauma.
Still, I think your "hung up" description isn't quite accurate.
Some people can not understand someone knowing because they can not.
Fighting against, freeing from the logical, many choose or can not.
Many believe they must wait to know at deaths door.
I was directing that to Cate to answer some questions she had and yes I believe
many leave religion due to the forced nature as children to learn and find faith.
This sets people up for failure, for expecting and not receiving.
Perhaps some are not honest with where their loss of belief came from.
Sometimes listening and reading between the lines one learns much about
the whys.
Critical thinking as in... ?
what one knows as fact?
Your first question ... it is not only within our control but our path to connect with God.