Ok, I'll delete another couple of lines and highlight some stuff to see if you'll actually read it this time:
However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
The November 11 rocket attacks were retaliation for the IDF killing a child at play from a helicopter.
if this is even true, its not just cause to fire rockets at israel...27 palestinians must be killed to warrant an attempt to kill an isreali. furthermore "mentally unfits" dont count, althou some count killing a child as 2
if this is even true, its not just cause to fire rockets at israel...27 palestinians must be killed to warrant an attempt to kill an isreali. furthermore "mentally unfits" dont count, althou some count killing a child as 2
Right. And those hundreds upon hundreds of rockets raining down on Israel...you know, the hundreds and hundreds of rockets with advanced targeting systems, raining down on exposed civilians, killing......five of them?
They make these kind of explosions look like bottle rockets.
Thankfully, Israel's civilian-kill-ratios are way up....these precision strikes, targeted assassinations....they're very effective..
Sarcasm aside.....Israel has flown thousands of bombing runs over Gaza (last figure i saw was in the 1300's a few days ago). I somehow doubt that Gaza has missiles capable of a fraction of what is on display in these pics. Israel has an absolutely overwhelming firepower advantage, and has used a hugely disproportionate amount of it. Theyve killed WAY more civilians. But they're the victims, right?
..the problem is that there was someone else home already..
Ahhh... And we are back to the problem. So a Jewish state was formed in 1948 where the largest population of Jews existed. And over 30% of the population of Palestine was Jewish. But I digress...
Let's circle back.
The origin of our discussion was me questioning whether the situation would be different if Israel were a Christian state, not a Jewish one. Your belief was that the Jewish people had stronger beliefs (I am paraphrasing) thus will fight harder for their cause.
I am just going to say that I have met people of all faiths whose beliefs are so strong that I would not say that any one group of people has a stronger faith than any other. It's simply my belief. Christian, Muslim, Jewish... whatever. The fanatics in all faiths are just that... FANATICS!
It is my opinion that if Israel were a Christian state, Hamas would not stop fighting until the infidels were killed or converted.
I am going to try and leave this discussion for a few days. (I will check in a couple times, but will not be responding) It has been a nice 24 hours in participating in a new forum. It's time to start giving thanks to things that are a bit closer to me.
I vistited Sderot in July. I missed the bombings on June 23rd by 2 weeks. The bombings never stop. You know what... war was bound to happen.
No need to stretch the thread longer. Here is a summary of October bombings...
October
In October, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 116 rockets and 55 mortar shells at Israel in 92 separate attacks.[250]
In late October, Sderot Mayor David Buskila began a hunger strike outside of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office, protesting what he perceived as the lack of attention by the government to Israeli towns that suffer from rocket attacks and demanding that the government intervene in the issue.[251] Five days into Buskila's hunger strike, the Israeli government approved a NIS 270 million plan to increase fortifications for all Israeli towns between 4.5–7 km of the Gaza Strip. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu explained that "this will bring security to the southern residents. This is something which southern residents have been requesting for a long time."[251]
October 1
According to the Israel Police, Palestinians fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[252]
October 4
In the evening, according to an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson, Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into the Ashkelon area.[253]
October 8
On the morning of the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups fired more than 50 rockets and mortars into Israel. One of the rockets landed in a petting zoo in the Eshkol Regional Council, killing two goats and wounding nine other goats. A worker stated that the zoo was usually "packed with children" but was empty at the time because of the holiday. A residential building was also damaged, but no human injuries were reported. Israelis in the Eshkol Regional Council were instructed to remain in shelters for several hours. This marked the first time since June that Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for rocket attacks on Israel. The group's stated aim was vengeance against "Zionist crimes"; this was an allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day against Muhammad Jerbi, a jihadist militant from Rafah, and Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi, a member of the The Mujahideen Shura Council of Jerusalem, a Gazan militant group, killing Maqawi and injuring 11.[254][255][256]
October 9
Palestinians fired 6 rockets into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks.
Around 6 am, a rocket was launched into the Eshkol Regional Council.[257]
In the afternoon, a Qassam rocket was fired into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council.[258]
After nightfall, two Qassam rockets landed outside Sderot, and three Grad missiles landed outside Netivot.[257][259]
Israel responded with an air strike on an infiltration tunnel in the northern Gaza Strip.[260]
October 10
In the morning, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council.[261] Another rocket exploded in an open area in the city of Netivot.[262] In the evening, a Grad missile was fired toward Netivot.[263] No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks. Israel responded with an air strike on a Hamas training camp, causing no injuries.[264]
October 12
Around 19:30, Palestinians from the Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem fired a Grad missile into Netivot, which exploded in the backyard of a family home. Shrapnel pierced the walls of the home and penetrated a child's bedroom. Though there were no physical injuries, two people were hospitalized for acute stress reaction. Israel responded with an air strike on two Mujahideen Shura Council terrorists riding a motorcycle in the northern Gaza Strip. One was killed and the other was injured.[265][266][267]
October 14
Palestinians fired two rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage. In a separate incident, Israeli forces targeted Palestinians as they were preparing to fire rockets into Israel, killing one and injuring another.[268]
October 16
Palestinians fired a rocket that landed near a home in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. The building was damaged and two people were treated for acute stress reaction. A second rocket landed in an open area in the Lachish Regional Council. Local residents were urged to stay close to bomb shelters. The attacks followed a threat against Israel by Sinai-based Salafist group Ansar Bayt al-Maqdes. Israel responded with an air strike on a base of Hamas' armed wing in the northern Gaza Strip, causing no injuries.[269][270][271]
October 17
Palestinian terrorists fired at least seven rockets into southern Israel, one of which struck a kindergarten. The building was damaged, but no one was in it at the time and no injuries were caused. The other rockets landed in open areas. Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists, according to Palestinian media.[272]
October 18
Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.[273]
October 22
Palestinians fired 7 rockets into the Shaar Hanegev and Ashkelon Coast regional councils. No injuries or damage were reported. In two separate incidents, Israel launched air strikes on Palestinians preparing to fire projectiles into Israel, killing two members of the Popular Resistance Committees.[274][275]
October 23
Palestinians fired 3 rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[276]
October 24
Palestinian military personnel fired at least 80 rockets and mortars into Israel; most landed in the Eshkol, Lachish and Ashkelon Coast regional councils. Five people were injured; two of the victims were critically wounded and were evacuated by helicopter to Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba. A house was also reportedly damaged. At least 8 rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome defense system. Municipalities in southern Israel cancelled school. Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for the attacks. Israeli air strikes on rocket launching squads killed four Hamas militants throughout the day.[277][278][279][280]
October 25
Despite an informal ceasefire, Palestinians launched a mortar shell into the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[281]
October 28
Overnight, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. In the morning, a third Qassam rocket[282] and two Grad missiles exploded near Beersheba.[283] The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility for one of the Grad missiles.[284][285] The Beersheba municipality cancelled school; Mayor Rubik Danilovich explained that the decision resulted from experience, saying, "We've had four direct hits on schools, and each of those times was when we were told to resume normalcy."[285] In the afternoon, another rocket landed near Ashkelon.[286]
October 29
Throughout the night and morning, Palestinians fired 20 rockets and mortars at Sderot and the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. Residents of these towns were cautioned to stay within 15 seconds of reinforced "secure rooms" for protection in case a rocket fell.[287][288]
October 30
in 7:44 in the morning a rocket hit the outskirts of Dimona,[289] no injuries or damage reported. That was the first time 45 km rocket had been used.
October 31
In the morning, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. One rocket exploded in an open area within a town, but caused no injuries or damage.[290]
[edit]November
November 4
Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into Israel, causing no injuries or damage.[291]
November 6
Following the shooting and subsequent death on the previous day of a Gazan civilian approaching the border with Israel,[292] at 10:20am [293] Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.[294]
November 9
Following an Israeli incursion on the previous day into 'Abassan village and the killing of a 13 year-old Palestinian boy by Israeli gunfire,[295][296] Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.[297]
November 10
Palestinian militants fired an anti-tank missile at an IDF jeep patrolling the border, wounding 4 soldiers.[298] IDF forces responded with tank fire, killing 4 Palestinians on a football playground (aged 16,17,18 and 19) and wounding 38.[296] Further airstrikes killed 2 Palestinian militants. Palestinians then fired 25 rockets at Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gan Yavne and other communities. The Iron Dome anti-rocket system intercepted at least one rocket aimed at Ashdod.[299] IDF airstrikes destroyed several Palestinian targets which the IDF alleged were being used for military purposes, including a water tank, an electricity company office, a brick factory, a metal workshop, a concrete factory, a poultry farm, and an agricultural store, damaging several houses, and wounding 13 Palestinian civilians.[296]
if WE here cant even agree to simple things that both sides do wrong..that death is death at both sides
and we say,you fire first..no no..you did it first...
how the hell they there..that they are the ones with the problem ..they listen and see the rockets and the bombs...will ever find a solution,agree for peace??
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
..the problem is that there was someone else home already..
Ahhh... And we are back to the problem. So a Jewish state was formed in 1948 where the largest population of Jews existed. And over 30% of the population of Palestine was Jewish. But I digress...
Let's circle back.
The origin of our discussion was me questioning whether the situation would be different if Israel were a Christian state, not a Jewish one. Your belief was that the Jewish people had stronger beliefs (I am paraphrasing) thus will fight harder for their cause.
I am just going to say that I have met people of all faiths whose beliefs are so strong that I would not say that any one group of people has a stronger faith than any other. It's simply my belief. Christian, Muslim, Jewish... whatever. The fanatics in all faiths are just that... FANATICS!
It is my opinion that if Israel were a Christian state, Hamas would not stop fighting until the infidels were killed or converted.
I am going to try and leave this discussion for a few days. (I will check in a couple times, but will not be responding) It has been a nice 24 hours in participating in a new forum. It's time to start giving thanks to things that are a bit closer to me.
Health and Happiness to all!
enjoy your day!!
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Ok, I'll delete another couple of lines and highlight some stuff to see if you'll actually read it this time:
However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
The November 11 rocket attacks were retaliation for the IDF killing a child at play from a helicopter.
In this daisy chain you are trying to create, you have neglected the "throw away" factoid I included - Hamas has pretty much been bombing Israel daily for the last 7 years.
PCoT gave a couple month's detail on that. Were these all retaliation for these future events you site? Hamas supporters such as yourself can start the chain of events wherever you want to make your story sound good. But, the facts don't suppot them. If you are going to chain together events, keep going is all I say. However, that doesn't change the fact that those Nov 11 bombings were the direct cause of the current escalation. If Hamas does not bomb, those isolated incidents don't repeat themselves (other than how they have already been repeating themselves on both sides for a long time). Hamas bombs, so Israel responds.
As with PCoT, this thread's been fun, but it's time to enjoy the greatest night of the year tonight, so tomorrow we can give Thanks for our respective fortunate circumstances and hope for a better future for everyone.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Ok, I'll delete another couple of lines and highlight some stuff to see if you'll actually read it this time:
However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
The November 11 rocket attacks were retaliation for the IDF killing a child at play from a helicopter.
In this daisy chain you are trying to create, you have neglected the "throw away" factoid I included - Hamas has pretty much been bombing Israel daily for the last 7 years.
PCoT gave a couple month's detail on that. Were these all retaliation for these future events you site? Hamas supporters such as yourself can start the chain of events wherever you want to make your story sound good. But, the facts don't suppot them. If you are going to chain together events, keep going is all I say. However, that doesn't change the fact that those Nov 11 bombings were the direct cause of the current escalation. If Hamas does not bomb, those isolated incidents don't repeat themselves (other than how they have already been repeating themselves on both sides for a long time). Hamas bombs, so Israel responds.
As with PCoT, this thread's been fun, but it's time to enjoy the greatest night of the year tonight, so tomorrow we can give Thanks for our respective fortunate circumstances and hope for a better future for everyone.
you do know its not just HAMAS who fire rockets into israel, right? tho it is HAMAS in being the representative of the palestinian people who has to not only cease their fire, which they have control over, but also that of other groups, of which their control isnt exactly total.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
apparently some people in this thread are too high and mighty and don't want to bother to actually answer a question to someone who honestly would like answers and god forbid learn both sides of the story. I guess you are only here to argue?
so fuck it.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
apparently some people in this thread are too high and mighty and don't want to bother to actually answer a question to someone who honestly would like answers and god forbid learn both sides of the story. I guess you are only here to argue?
so fuck it.
thats why im so suspicius at threads about israel and their sources..
in the whole planet there are powerfull countries that does alot of shit to poor,helpless people..
but noone care to open a thread...
but when it comes to Israel,,who ofcourse all know that israel isnt innocent..the threads comes one after the other fast..
when was here someone open a thread about Russia and Tsetsesia,China and Thivet,Turkey and Armenia
N Korea etc??
dont have to mention Cyprus...noone care about them..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
thats why im so suspicius at threads about israel and their sources..
in the whole planet there are powerfull countries that does alot of shit to poor,helpless people..
but noone care to open a thread...
but when it comes to Israel,,who ofcourse all know that israel isnt innocent..the threads comes one after the other fast..
when was here someone open a thread about Russia and Tsetsesia,China and Thivet,Turkey and Armenia
N Korea etc??
dont have to mention Cyprus...noone care about them..
why dont you dimitri???
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
thats why im so suspicius at threads about israel and their sources..
in the whole planet there are powerfull countries that does alot of shit to poor,helpless people..
but noone care to open a thread...
but when it comes to Israel,,who ofcourse all know that israel isnt innocent..the threads comes one after the other fast..
when was here someone open a thread about Russia and Tsetsesia,China and Thivet,Turkey and Armenia
N Korea etc??
dont have to mention Cyprus...noone care about them..
why dont you dimitri???
alot of times i want to do it..but i really feel bad with my english cos of the words -terms in politics - law and medicine are diffeicult for me cos i dont know many words to express my thought..
is difficult to staet a thread and do it by stoiping every minute to go to google translator..
+ need to be specific to what u say so i really in the end say fuck it.!!
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
thats why im so suspicius at threads about israel and their sources..
in the whole planet there are powerfull countries that does alot of shit to poor,helpless people..
but noone care to open a thread...
but when it comes to Israel,,who ofcourse all know that israel isnt innocent..the threads comes one after the other fast..
when was here someone open a thread about Russia and Tsetsesia,China and Thivet,Turkey and Armenia
N Korea etc??
dont have to mention Cyprus...noone care about them..
north americans only give a shit about nations that have what we need in order to maintain our piggish and materialistic lifestyle.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
alot of times i want to do it..but i really feel bad with my english cos of the words -terms in politics - law and medicine are diffeicult for me cos i dont know many words to express my thought..
is difficult to staet a thread and do it by stoiping every minute to go to google translator..
+ need to be specific to what u say so i really in the end say fuck it.!!
and I don't blame you. a lot of the AMT [rude comment removed by Admin...do you want to be read-only for a while?] brigade would probably make fun of the language barrier. it's bad enough on here having English as your first language.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
former israeli paratrooper Avner Gvaryahu, now an activist with Breaking The Silence explains to Green Left Weekly's Peter Boyle how 850 former Israeli soldiers have given testimony about the gross injustices against the Palestinian people they have witnessed and made to participate in as part of Israel's military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza
Soldier: We took over a central house, set up positions, and one of the sharpshooters identified a man on a roof, two roofs away, I think he was between 50 and 70 metres away, not armed. I looked at the man through the night vision — he wasn’t armed. It was two in the morning. A man without arms, walking on the roof, just walking around. We reported it to the company commander. The company commander said: “Take him down.” [The sharpshooter] fired, took him down. The company commander — basically ordered, decided via radio, the death sentence for that man. A man who wasn’t armed.
Interviewer: You saw that he wasn’t armed?
Solder: I saw with my own eyes that the guy wasn’t armed. The report also said: “a man without arms on the roof.” The company commander declared him a lookout, meaning he understood that the guy was no threat to us, and he gave the order to kill him and we shot him. I myself didn’t shoot, my friend shot and killed him.
And basically you think, you see in the United States there’s the death penalty, for every death sentence there are like a thousand appeals and convictions, and they take it very seriously, and there are judges and learned people, and there are protests and what ever. And here a 26-year old guy, my company commander, sentenced an unarmed man to death. Who is he? What do you mean, a lookout? And even if he was a lookout? So what, you have to kill him? And how did he know he was a lookout? He didn’t know. He got a report from the radio about an unarmed man on the roof, and he gave an order to kill him, which I think is an illegal order, and we carried out the order, we killed him. The man died. And listen, to me it’s murder. And that’s not the only case.
In June 2004, some 60 veteran soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces presented an exhibition of written testimonies and photographs from their military service in Hebron, in the Occupied West Bank. The exhibition led to the founding of Breaking the Silence, an organization dedicated to exposing the day-to-day reality of military service in the Occupied Territories through testimonies from the soldiers entrusted with carrying it out.
The collected witnesses’ testimonies represent all strata of Israeli society and nearly all IDF units engaged in the Occupied Territories. They include commanders and officers as well as the rank and file, and both men and women.
Although the soldiers’ descriptions are limited to their personal experiences, the cumulative body of their testimony allows a broad view — not only of the IDF’s primary methods of operation but also of the principles shaping Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories.
This month marks the publication of Our Harsh Logic, the first book of testimonies published by Breaking the Silence. The book is based on the report Occupation of the Territories: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies, 2000-2010, which marked a decade since the outbreak of the Second Palestinian Intifada.
The testimonies left no room for doubt: while the security apparatus has had to respond to concrete threats during the past decade, including terrorist attacks on citizens, Israel’s actions are not solely defensive. Rather, they have systematically led to the de facto annexation of large sections of the West Bank through the dispossession of Palestinian residents and by tightening control over the civilian population and instilling fear. The widespread notion in Israeli society that control of the Territories is exclusively aimed at protecting citizens is incompatible with the information conveyed by hundreds of IDF soldiers.
In the media, in internal discussions, and in military briefings, the security forces and government bodies consistently refer to four components of Israeli policy: “prevention of terrorism,” or “prevention of hostile terrorist activity” (sikkul); “separation,” that is, Israel remaining separate from the Palestinian population (hafradah); preserving the Palestinian “fabric of life” (mirkam hayyim); and “enforcing the law” in the Territories (akifat hok).
The testimonies in Our Harsh Logic each correspond to one of these policy terms.
In the first part, “Prevention,” the testimonies show that almost every use of military force in the Territories is considered preventive. Behind this sweeping interpretation of the term lies the assumption that every Palestinian, man and woman, is suspect, constituting a threat to Israeli citizens and soldiers; consequently, deterring the Palestinian population as a whole, through intimidation, will reduce the possibility of opposition and thereby prevent terrorist activity.
In this light, abusing Palestinians at checkpoints, confiscating property, imposing collective punishment, changing and obstructing access to free movement (by setting up transient checkpoints, for example), even making arbitrary changes to the rules (according to the whim of a commander at a checkpoint, for instance) — these can all be justified as preventive activities, and the difference between offensive and defensive actions gradually disappears.
Part Two covers the second policy term, “Separation,” which does not only mean separating the two populations, but also separating Palestinian communities from each other. Palestinian movement is channeled to Israel’s monitoring mechanisms, which establish new borders on the ground. The many permits and permissions Palestinians need to move around the West Bank also serve to limit their freedom of movement and internally divide their communities. The often arbitrary regulations and endless bureaucratic mazes are no less effective than physical barriers. The policy of separation is exposed as a means to divide and conquer.
The soldiers’ testimonies also reveal a third effect, which is the separation of Palestinians from their land. The Israeli settlements and surrounding areas are themselves a barrier. Palestinians are forbidden to enter these territories, which often include their own agricultural land. The location of these multiple barriers does not appear to be determined solely by defensive considerations based on where Palestinians live, but rather on offensive calculations governed by Israel’s desire to incorporate certain areas into its jurisdiction. In the West Bank, checkpoints, roads closed to Palestinian traffic, and prohibition against Palestinian movement from one place to another are measures that effectively push Palestinians off their land and allow the expansion of Israeli sovereignty.
The reality of Palestinian life under Israeli occupation is the subject of Part Three, “The Fabric of Life.” Israeli spokespeople emphasize that Palestinians in the Territories receive all basic necessities and are not subjected to a humanitarian crisis, and that Israel even ensures the maintenance of a proper “fabric of life.” Such claims, along with assertions of economic prosperity in the West Bank, suggest that life under foreign occupation can be tolerable, and even good.
On the basis of these claims, those who support Israeli policy argue that the occupation is a justifiable means of defense, and if harm is regrettably suffered by the population, the damage is “proportionate” to the security of Israeli civilians. But, the fact that Palestinians require Israel’s good grace to lead their lives shows the extent to which they are dependent on Israel. If Israel is able to prevent a humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip, when considered necessary, then Israel also has the power to create one.
Israel’s claim to allow the maintenance of the “fabric of life” in the West Bank reveals the absolute control that it has over the Palestinian people. On a daily basis, the Israeli authorities decide which goods may be transferred from city to city, which businesses may open, who can pass through checkpoints and through security barrier crossings, who may send their children to school, who will be able to reach the universities, and who will receive the medical treatment they need. Israel also continues to hold the private property of tens of thousands of Palestinians.
In Part Four, which covers the “dual regime,” the soldiers’ testimonies show how, in the name of enforcing the law, Israel maintains two legal systems: in one, Palestinians are governed by military rule that is enforced by soldiers and subject to frequent change; in the other, Israeli settlers are subject to predominantly civil law that is passed by a democratically elected legislature and enforced by police. The Israeli legal authority in the Territories does not represent Palestinians and their interests. Rather, they are subordinate to a system through compliance with threats that reinforce Israel’s overall military superiority.
The testimonies in this part also reveal the active role played by settlers in imposing Israel’s military rule. Settlers serve in public positions and are partners in military deliberations and decisions that control the lives of the Palestinians who live in their area of settlement. Settlers often work in the Ministry of Defense as security coordinator for their settlement, in which case they influence all kinds of details affecting the area, such as transportation, road access, and security patrols, and even participate in soldiers’ briefings.
The security forces do not see the settlers as civilians subject to law enforcement but as a powerful body that shares common goals. Even when the wishes of the settlers and the military are at odds, they still ultimately consider each other as partners in a shared struggle and settle their conflict through compromise. As a consequence, the security forces usually acquiesce in the settlers’ goals, if only partially.
It is sometimes claimed that the failure to enforce the law among the settlers is due to the weakness of the Israeli police force. The testimonies in this section strongly suggest otherwise: that the law is not enforced because security forces do not treat settlers as regular citizens but as partners.
Despite its scope, Our Harsh Logic is limited to the information brought to light in the soldiers’ testimonies. It does not describe all the means by which the State of Israel controls the Territories and should not be read as an attempt to address every aspect of the Occupation. The full picture is missing the activities carried out by the General Security Services (Shabak) and other intelligence agencies, as well as the military courts, which constitute an important component of military rule, and additional facets of the military administration. Rather, the purpose of this book is to replace the code words that sterilize public discussion with a more accurate description of Israel’s policies in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
But the truce actually doesn't move anything forward (though thankfully stops the fighting for now). Israel agreed to stop assassinating top Hamas officials and to ease the restrictions on crossings.
Why does this not move anything forward? Israel was already in the process of easing the restrictions before this all started, and there are no time tables nor specifics on what this actually means. So, all Hamas accomplished was protecting their own inner circle, nothing for their citizens.
They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate and kill a couple of their top operatives, and all they get out of it is Israel saying they will continue to do what they were already doing. So, Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians and accomplished - nothing!!!! That's what terrorists do.
In this daisy chain you are trying to create, you have neglected the "throw away" factoid I included - Hamas has pretty much been bombing Israel daily for the last 7 years.
PCoT gave a couple month's detail on that. Were these all retaliation for these future events you site? Hamas supporters such as yourself can start the chain of events wherever you want to make your story sound good. But, the facts don't suppot them. If you are going to chain together events, keep going is all I say. However, that doesn't change the fact that those Nov 11 bombings were the direct cause of the current escalation. If Hamas does not bomb, those isolated incidents don't repeat themselves (other than how they have already been repeating themselves on both sides for a long time). Hamas bombs, so Israel responds.
As with PCoT, this thread's been fun, but it's time to enjoy the greatest night of the year tonight, so tomorrow we can give Thanks for our respective fortunate circumstances and hope for a better future for everyone.
You'll notice my first response to your post was something along the lines of 'so another round of finger pointing, hmm? ok....'...that was because your post states "They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate", "Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians", etc etc....that's pretty clearly YOU trying to create your own daisy chain, no?
I am aware that this is an ongoing conflict, thanks....I didn't need to throw that point away. But I do notice that in your claims of Hamas starting it, and how stupid they are in doing so, because they gained nothing while their gracious hosts were about to bend on certain issues, that you neglected the throw-away point that the Hamas leader assassinated was the one involved in peace talks.
Anyway, I was kind of making the same point as you: that we can go back and forth about who started it, and either come out sounding like a couple of 3rd graders, or going back to the creation of the state of Israel... and accomplishing nothing. I should probably have just left it at that. But having you accuse me of trying to back pedal to a convenient starting point in this current conflict, when that's exactly what I was criticizing you for doing, was too contradictory to let slide.
Now.....since we're going back further with PhillyCoT's completely bias wiki list (notice how the palestinians are repeatedly called terrorists or jihadist militants - thinly veiled condemnation in what is presented as an impartial list?)....
The list mentions some Israeli attacks, but obviously not all, because it mentions in the description of the Oct.8 rocket attack, an "allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day" that is not listed in the chronology.
Nearly every Palestinian rocket attack listed ends with 'no injuries or damage was reported'....
Then the next line is 'Israel responed with a strike, killing two terrorists' or something of the sort.
Here are the stats I noted:
Israeli casualties:
0 dead (except for goats!).
9 injured (4 of them soldiers).
4 people treated for stress
Palestinian casualties:
15 dead, 5 of them children,
64 injured
This list also glosses over several of the few attacks it does mention with casual statements like 'Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists'. You can bet the Palestinian casualty list is much higher than that report. I also have to question the repeated claims that Israel fired upon Palestinians " preparing to fire projectiles into Israel"....that sounds like easy cover. Maybe not, but I think I have reason to doubt IDF claims after all the fabrications used to bomb hospitals, schools, UN safehouses, and other civilian targets during Cast Lead, and media centres during this seige.
I also notice that it doesn't mention that the funeral of the 13 year old who was killed playing football was fired upon, either.
Its pretty macabre to use stats like this...but it's important. It completely lays bare the slant of this conflict. When you consider that one side is imprisoned by the other, and the occupier is using such overwhelming force, the propaganda loses any weight it carried.
btw - that involved NO 'fact checking'....only critical thought to read between the lines.
Humanity simply cannot accept the force used by Israel in response to these acts.
if WE here cant even agree to simple things that both sides do wrong..that death is death at both sides
and we say,you fire first..no no..you did it first...
how the hell they there..that they are the ones with the problem ..they listen and see the rockets and the bombs...will ever find a solution,agree for peace??
the problem is two fold: 1. critical thinking and 2. facts
like with a lot of issues - people get their information from biased sources and ultimately do not take the time to think critically through them ... we've become lazy that way ... and what that ultimately means is that we now live in a world where agendas can easily be accomplished because the world of public opinion can so easily be manipulated ...
If Israel dropped it's weapons, it would cease to exist. Therefore, Israel does respect Palestinian lives more than the opposite.
please explain why Israel would cease to exist (sorry, I'm a newb on the subject and I'm learning as I go)
I'm hoping someone can answer this question.
Same reason you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
If I thought that and taught that you didn't and shouldn't ever have and presently exist and was going to do about anything to take that right away from you. Would you leave your front door unlocked and food in the oven for when me and my boys came looking for you?
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
I hope this cease-fire stands. In spite of my ranting against religion in this thread, I think people are generally sensible, religious or not. I've just come to the opinion that religion often gives a moral cause to our more violent instincts. "They are the immoral ones, we the holy ones!" I've seen this attitude here on this thread, so I guess I'm right. I think when people realize that while we are all a bit crazy, except for the few sociopaths and psychopaths out there, all of us are generally moral and sensible too... and if we stop thinking "my side is good and the other side doesn't value life" then maybe, just fucking maybe, we can all see each other as equals.
I hope this cease-fire stands. In spite of my ranting against religion in this thread, I think people are generally sensible, religious or not. I've just come to the opinion that religion often gives a moral cause to our more violent instincts. "They are the immoral ones, we the holy ones!" I've seen this attitude here on this thread, so I guess I'm right. I think when people realize that while we are all a bit crazy, except for the few sociopaths and psychopaths out there, all of us are generally moral and sensible too... and if we stop thinking "my side is good and the other side doesn't value life" then maybe, just fucking maybe, we can all see each other as equals.
i agree...maybe...but still we have a maybe..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Same reason you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
If I thought that and taught that you didn't and shouldn't ever have and presently exist and was going to do about anything to take that right away from you. Would you leave your front door unlocked and food in the oven for when me and my boys came looking for you?
serious question from a newb: do the Palestinians not recognize the STATE of Israel, or the PEOPLE of Israel? Cause really, I can't blame them for not recognizing the state's right to exist, given how it was created.
but if the state of Israel were somewhere else, would they still want them wiped off the map?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The state of Israel. Palestine was ready to recognise a state of Israel with pre-67 borders. Note that Israel does not recognise a State of Palestine either. Very basic statements but very complex situation.
The state of Israel. Palestine was ready to recognise a state of Israel with pre-67 borders. Note that Israel does not recognise a State of Palestine either. Very basic statements but very complex situation.
thanks redrock.
so I guess my overly simplistic question is this: if Palestine was the originating state, and Israelies moved in on their territory, then continue to try to take it over, but Palestine was willing to compromise, what the fuck is Israel's problem?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
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where is The UK in all this? Palestine being under their "protection"(or how ever you wish to term it) when this occured back in 48. Dont THEY shoulder some of the blame here?
This does not in any way mean that The US doesnt have its portion here.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The state of Israel. Palestine was ready to recognise a state of Israel with pre-67 borders. Note that Israel does not recognise a State of Palestine either. Very basic statements but very complex situation.
thanks redrock.
so I guess my overly simplistic question is this: if Palestine was the originating state, and Israelies moved in on their territory, then continue to try to take it over, but Palestine was willing to compromise, what the fuck is Israel's problem?
It is not an easy issue. Contrary to all the links and crap on these pages it goes back a tad farther then 67, 45, 33, 0, etc. People have been conquered for ever and nothing is going to change the past, the present or the future. When two or more people claim "land rights" (the quotes are for all the people on this board who oppose lines on maps) what do you think is going to happen. My church was there but my mosque was their first, no my temple was their before you conquered me and I conqured them. And the world keeps spinning and people continue to not get along and of course choose a side. Israeli's claim that they been hard done by all their time on earth and have a book or two or three to prove it. So they say. Then they wanted their land (that they supposedly owned sometime back when the sea was red and oh wait probably longer than that) back and after Germany was through with them, the world powers thought that dusting off part of the desert and claiming their land for them would be a super idea. Well some people didn't think it was a good idea. Of course this led to one side attacking the other, but the attacked side was a little better with playing war then the five or six who decided to gang up on them. The land that the attacked took off the attackers was claimed to be theirs now. And they played keep away. Held it up high enough that the other children couldn't jump high enough to get it. They thought it was a grand idea to have this new land and haven't stopped gaining more and more as the years have rolled on. Come and get it if you want it. :fp:
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
so I guess my overly simplistic question is this: if Palestine was the originating state, and Israelies moved in on their territory, then continue to try to take it over, but Palestine was willing to compromise, what the fuck is Israel's problem?
my overly simplistic response to your question would be that ... israel as a democracy has a wide range of representatives across the political spectrum ... it is however the hard right sector that has dominated policy ... under the guise of security - israel has allowed their politicians to take a hard line stance as it relates to palestine ... and in many ways it's sort of like the US in that most of the population do not recognize the impacts of their foreign policy decisions ... this hard right sector has absolutely no interest in having peace with palestine ... because their agenda is to control all the land and what israel is doing is expropriating more and more every day ... this cannot happen with peace ... so, to the ruling party of israel now - peace is NOT good ... without conflict - there is no impetus to govern under the guise of security ... without the threat of conflict ... the right would not rule israel ... and without the right ruling ... we wouldn't have bulldozers taking more and more land away from palestinians and without more and more land being taken away ... we wouldn't have a people fighting back ...
Comments
if this is even true, its not just cause to fire rockets at israel...27 palestinians must be killed to warrant an attempt to kill an isreali. furthermore "mentally unfits" dont count, althou some count killing a child as 2
They make these kind of explosions look like bottle rockets.
Thankfully, Israel's civilian-kill-ratios are way up....these precision strikes, targeted assassinations....they're very effective..
Sarcasm aside.....Israel has flown thousands of bombing runs over Gaza (last figure i saw was in the 1300's a few days ago). I somehow doubt that Gaza has missiles capable of a fraction of what is on display in these pics. Israel has an absolutely overwhelming firepower advantage, and has used a hugely disproportionate amount of it. Theyve killed WAY more civilians. But they're the victims, right?
Ahhh... And we are back to the problem. So a Jewish state was formed in 1948 where the largest population of Jews existed. And over 30% of the population of Palestine was Jewish. But I digress...
Let's circle back.
The origin of our discussion was me questioning whether the situation would be different if Israel were a Christian state, not a Jewish one. Your belief was that the Jewish people had stronger beliefs (I am paraphrasing) thus will fight harder for their cause.
I am just going to say that I have met people of all faiths whose beliefs are so strong that I would not say that any one group of people has a stronger faith than any other. It's simply my belief. Christian, Muslim, Jewish... whatever. The fanatics in all faiths are just that... FANATICS!
It is my opinion that if Israel were a Christian state, Hamas would not stop fighting until the infidels were killed or converted.
I am going to try and leave this discussion for a few days. (I will check in a couple times, but will not be responding) It has been a nice 24 hours in participating in a new forum. It's time to start giving thanks to things that are a bit closer to me.
Health and Happiness to all!
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
I'm hoping someone can answer this question.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
(Note- I am not fact checking this... feel free!)
I vistited Sderot in July. I missed the bombings on June 23rd by 2 weeks. The bombings never stop. You know what... war was bound to happen.
No need to stretch the thread longer. Here is a summary of October bombings...
October
In October, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 116 rockets and 55 mortar shells at Israel in 92 separate attacks.[250]
In late October, Sderot Mayor David Buskila began a hunger strike outside of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office, protesting what he perceived as the lack of attention by the government to Israeli towns that suffer from rocket attacks and demanding that the government intervene in the issue.[251] Five days into Buskila's hunger strike, the Israeli government approved a NIS 270 million plan to increase fortifications for all Israeli towns between 4.5–7 km of the Gaza Strip. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu explained that "this will bring security to the southern residents. This is something which southern residents have been requesting for a long time."[251]
October 1
According to the Israel Police, Palestinians fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[252]
October 4
In the evening, according to an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson, Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into the Ashkelon area.[253]
October 8
On the morning of the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups fired more than 50 rockets and mortars into Israel. One of the rockets landed in a petting zoo in the Eshkol Regional Council, killing two goats and wounding nine other goats. A worker stated that the zoo was usually "packed with children" but was empty at the time because of the holiday. A residential building was also damaged, but no human injuries were reported. Israelis in the Eshkol Regional Council were instructed to remain in shelters for several hours. This marked the first time since June that Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for rocket attacks on Israel. The group's stated aim was vengeance against "Zionist crimes"; this was an allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day against Muhammad Jerbi, a jihadist militant from Rafah, and Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi, a member of the The Mujahideen Shura Council of Jerusalem, a Gazan militant group, killing Maqawi and injuring 11.[254][255][256]
October 9
Palestinians fired 6 rockets into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks.
Around 6 am, a rocket was launched into the Eshkol Regional Council.[257]
In the afternoon, a Qassam rocket was fired into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council.[258]
After nightfall, two Qassam rockets landed outside Sderot, and three Grad missiles landed outside Netivot.[257][259]
Israel responded with an air strike on an infiltration tunnel in the northern Gaza Strip.[260]
October 10
In the morning, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council.[261] Another rocket exploded in an open area in the city of Netivot.[262] In the evening, a Grad missile was fired toward Netivot.[263] No injuries or damage were reported in any of the attacks. Israel responded with an air strike on a Hamas training camp, causing no injuries.[264]
October 12
Around 19:30, Palestinians from the Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem fired a Grad missile into Netivot, which exploded in the backyard of a family home. Shrapnel pierced the walls of the home and penetrated a child's bedroom. Though there were no physical injuries, two people were hospitalized for acute stress reaction. Israel responded with an air strike on two Mujahideen Shura Council terrorists riding a motorcycle in the northern Gaza Strip. One was killed and the other was injured.[265][266][267]
October 14
Palestinians fired two rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage. In a separate incident, Israeli forces targeted Palestinians as they were preparing to fire rockets into Israel, killing one and injuring another.[268]
October 16
Palestinians fired a rocket that landed near a home in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. The building was damaged and two people were treated for acute stress reaction. A second rocket landed in an open area in the Lachish Regional Council. Local residents were urged to stay close to bomb shelters. The attacks followed a threat against Israel by Sinai-based Salafist group Ansar Bayt al-Maqdes. Israel responded with an air strike on a base of Hamas' armed wing in the northern Gaza Strip, causing no injuries.[269][270][271]
October 17
Palestinian terrorists fired at least seven rockets into southern Israel, one of which struck a kindergarten. The building was damaged, but no one was in it at the time and no injuries were caused. The other rockets landed in open areas. Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists, according to Palestinian media.[272]
October 18
Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.[273]
October 22
Palestinians fired 7 rockets into the Shaar Hanegev and Ashkelon Coast regional councils. No injuries or damage were reported. In two separate incidents, Israel launched air strikes on Palestinians preparing to fire projectiles into Israel, killing two members of the Popular Resistance Committees.[274][275]
October 23
Palestinians fired 3 rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[276]
October 24
Palestinian military personnel fired at least 80 rockets and mortars into Israel; most landed in the Eshkol, Lachish and Ashkelon Coast regional councils. Five people were injured; two of the victims were critically wounded and were evacuated by helicopter to Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba. A house was also reportedly damaged. At least 8 rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome defense system. Municipalities in southern Israel cancelled school. Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, claimed responsibility for the attacks. Israeli air strikes on rocket launching squads killed four Hamas militants throughout the day.[277][278][279][280]
October 25
Despite an informal ceasefire, Palestinians launched a mortar shell into the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[281]
October 28
Overnight, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. In the morning, a third Qassam rocket[282] and two Grad missiles exploded near Beersheba.[283] The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility for one of the Grad missiles.[284][285] The Beersheba municipality cancelled school; Mayor Rubik Danilovich explained that the decision resulted from experience, saying, "We've had four direct hits on schools, and each of those times was when we were told to resume normalcy."[285] In the afternoon, another rocket landed near Ashkelon.[286]
October 29
Throughout the night and morning, Palestinians fired 20 rockets and mortars at Sderot and the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. Residents of these towns were cautioned to stay within 15 seconds of reinforced "secure rooms" for protection in case a rocket fell.[287][288]
October 30
in 7:44 in the morning a rocket hit the outskirts of Dimona,[289] no injuries or damage reported. That was the first time 45 km rocket had been used.
October 31
In the morning, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. One rocket exploded in an open area within a town, but caused no injuries or damage.[290]
[edit]November
November 4
Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into Israel, causing no injuries or damage.[291]
November 6
Following the shooting and subsequent death on the previous day of a Gazan civilian approaching the border with Israel,[292] at 10:20am [293] Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.[294]
November 9
Following an Israeli incursion on the previous day into 'Abassan village and the killing of a 13 year-old Palestinian boy by Israeli gunfire,[295][296] Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.[297]
November 10
Palestinian militants fired an anti-tank missile at an IDF jeep patrolling the border, wounding 4 soldiers.[298] IDF forces responded with tank fire, killing 4 Palestinians on a football playground (aged 16,17,18 and 19) and wounding 38.[296] Further airstrikes killed 2 Palestinian militants. Palestinians then fired 25 rockets at Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gan Yavne and other communities. The Iron Dome anti-rocket system intercepted at least one rocket aimed at Ashdod.[299] IDF airstrikes destroyed several Palestinian targets which the IDF alleged were being used for military purposes, including a water tank, an electricity company office, a brick factory, a metal workshop, a concrete factory, a poultry farm, and an agricultural store, damaging several houses, and wounding 13 Palestinian civilians.[296]
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
You tell me what would happen... I think there are some groups on this list that would take notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de ... anizations
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
if WE here cant even agree to simple things that both sides do wrong..that death is death at both sides
and we say,you fire first..no no..you did it first...
how the hell they there..that they are the ones with the problem ..they listen and see the rockets and the bombs...will ever find a solution,agree for peace??
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
In this daisy chain you are trying to create, you have neglected the "throw away" factoid I included - Hamas has pretty much been bombing Israel daily for the last 7 years.
PCoT gave a couple month's detail on that. Were these all retaliation for these future events you site? Hamas supporters such as yourself can start the chain of events wherever you want to make your story sound good. But, the facts don't suppot them. If you are going to chain together events, keep going is all I say. However, that doesn't change the fact that those Nov 11 bombings were the direct cause of the current escalation. If Hamas does not bomb, those isolated incidents don't repeat themselves (other than how they have already been repeating themselves on both sides for a long time). Hamas bombs, so Israel responds.
As with PCoT, this thread's been fun, but it's time to enjoy the greatest night of the year tonight, so tomorrow we can give Thanks for our respective fortunate circumstances and hope for a better future for everyone.
you do know its not just HAMAS who fire rockets into israel, right? tho it is HAMAS in being the representative of the palestinian people who has to not only cease their fire, which they have control over, but also that of other groups, of which their control isnt exactly total.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
apparently some people in this thread are too high and mighty and don't want to bother to actually answer a question to someone who honestly would like answers and god forbid learn both sides of the story. I guess you are only here to argue?
so fuck it.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
in the whole planet there are powerfull countries that does alot of shit to poor,helpless people..
but noone care to open a thread...
but when it comes to Israel,,who ofcourse all know that israel isnt innocent..the threads comes one after the other fast..
when was here someone open a thread about Russia and Tsetsesia,China and Thivet,Turkey and Armenia
N Korea etc??
dont have to mention Cyprus...noone care about them..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
why dont you dimitri???
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
is difficult to staet a thread and do it by stoiping every minute to go to google translator..
+ need to be specific to what u say so i really in the end say fuck it.!!
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
north americans only give a shit about nations that have what we need in order to maintain our piggish and materialistic lifestyle.
Fargo 2003
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Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
and I don't blame you. a lot of the AMT [rude comment removed by Admin...do you want to be read-only for a while?] brigade would probably make fun of the language barrier. it's bad enough on here having English as your first language.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYXdoipaqnY
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://iajv99.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/ ... -soldiers/
Death sentence for a man who wasn’t armed
Unit: Paratroopers
Location: Nablus
Year: 2002
Soldier: We took over a central house, set up positions, and one of the sharpshooters identified a man on a roof, two roofs away, I think he was between 50 and 70 metres away, not armed. I looked at the man through the night vision — he wasn’t armed. It was two in the morning. A man without arms, walking on the roof, just walking around. We reported it to the company commander. The company commander said: “Take him down.” [The sharpshooter] fired, took him down. The company commander — basically ordered, decided via radio, the death sentence for that man. A man who wasn’t armed.
Interviewer: You saw that he wasn’t armed?
Solder: I saw with my own eyes that the guy wasn’t armed. The report also said: “a man without arms on the roof.” The company commander declared him a lookout, meaning he understood that the guy was no threat to us, and he gave the order to kill him and we shot him. I myself didn’t shoot, my friend shot and killed him.
And basically you think, you see in the United States there’s the death penalty, for every death sentence there are like a thousand appeals and convictions, and they take it very seriously, and there are judges and learned people, and there are protests and what ever. And here a 26-year old guy, my company commander, sentenced an unarmed man to death. Who is he? What do you mean, a lookout? And even if he was a lookout? So what, you have to kill him? And how did he know he was a lookout? He didn’t know. He got a report from the radio about an unarmed man on the roof, and he gave an order to kill him, which I think is an illegal order, and we carried out the order, we killed him. The man died. And listen, to me it’s murder. And that’s not the only case.
In June 2004, some 60 veteran soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces presented an exhibition of written testimonies and photographs from their military service in Hebron, in the Occupied West Bank. The exhibition led to the founding of Breaking the Silence, an organization dedicated to exposing the day-to-day reality of military service in the Occupied Territories through testimonies from the soldiers entrusted with carrying it out.
The collected witnesses’ testimonies represent all strata of Israeli society and nearly all IDF units engaged in the Occupied Territories. They include commanders and officers as well as the rank and file, and both men and women.
Although the soldiers’ descriptions are limited to their personal experiences, the cumulative body of their testimony allows a broad view — not only of the IDF’s primary methods of operation but also of the principles shaping Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories.
This month marks the publication of Our Harsh Logic, the first book of testimonies published by Breaking the Silence. The book is based on the report Occupation of the Territories: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies, 2000-2010, which marked a decade since the outbreak of the Second Palestinian Intifada.
The testimonies left no room for doubt: while the security apparatus has had to respond to concrete threats during the past decade, including terrorist attacks on citizens, Israel’s actions are not solely defensive. Rather, they have systematically led to the de facto annexation of large sections of the West Bank through the dispossession of Palestinian residents and by tightening control over the civilian population and instilling fear. The widespread notion in Israeli society that control of the Territories is exclusively aimed at protecting citizens is incompatible with the information conveyed by hundreds of IDF soldiers.
In the media, in internal discussions, and in military briefings, the security forces and government bodies consistently refer to four components of Israeli policy: “prevention of terrorism,” or “prevention of hostile terrorist activity” (sikkul); “separation,” that is, Israel remaining separate from the Palestinian population (hafradah); preserving the Palestinian “fabric of life” (mirkam hayyim); and “enforcing the law” in the Territories (akifat hok).
The testimonies in Our Harsh Logic each correspond to one of these policy terms.
In the first part, “Prevention,” the testimonies show that almost every use of military force in the Territories is considered preventive. Behind this sweeping interpretation of the term lies the assumption that every Palestinian, man and woman, is suspect, constituting a threat to Israeli citizens and soldiers; consequently, deterring the Palestinian population as a whole, through intimidation, will reduce the possibility of opposition and thereby prevent terrorist activity.
In this light, abusing Palestinians at checkpoints, confiscating property, imposing collective punishment, changing and obstructing access to free movement (by setting up transient checkpoints, for example), even making arbitrary changes to the rules (according to the whim of a commander at a checkpoint, for instance) — these can all be justified as preventive activities, and the difference between offensive and defensive actions gradually disappears.
Part Two covers the second policy term, “Separation,” which does not only mean separating the two populations, but also separating Palestinian communities from each other. Palestinian movement is channeled to Israel’s monitoring mechanisms, which establish new borders on the ground. The many permits and permissions Palestinians need to move around the West Bank also serve to limit their freedom of movement and internally divide their communities. The often arbitrary regulations and endless bureaucratic mazes are no less effective than physical barriers. The policy of separation is exposed as a means to divide and conquer.
The soldiers’ testimonies also reveal a third effect, which is the separation of Palestinians from their land. The Israeli settlements and surrounding areas are themselves a barrier. Palestinians are forbidden to enter these territories, which often include their own agricultural land. The location of these multiple barriers does not appear to be determined solely by defensive considerations based on where Palestinians live, but rather on offensive calculations governed by Israel’s desire to incorporate certain areas into its jurisdiction. In the West Bank, checkpoints, roads closed to Palestinian traffic, and prohibition against Palestinian movement from one place to another are measures that effectively push Palestinians off their land and allow the expansion of Israeli sovereignty.
The reality of Palestinian life under Israeli occupation is the subject of Part Three, “The Fabric of Life.” Israeli spokespeople emphasize that Palestinians in the Territories receive all basic necessities and are not subjected to a humanitarian crisis, and that Israel even ensures the maintenance of a proper “fabric of life.” Such claims, along with assertions of economic prosperity in the West Bank, suggest that life under foreign occupation can be tolerable, and even good.
On the basis of these claims, those who support Israeli policy argue that the occupation is a justifiable means of defense, and if harm is regrettably suffered by the population, the damage is “proportionate” to the security of Israeli civilians. But, the fact that Palestinians require Israel’s good grace to lead their lives shows the extent to which they are dependent on Israel. If Israel is able to prevent a humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip, when considered necessary, then Israel also has the power to create one.
Israel’s claim to allow the maintenance of the “fabric of life” in the West Bank reveals the absolute control that it has over the Palestinian people. On a daily basis, the Israeli authorities decide which goods may be transferred from city to city, which businesses may open, who can pass through checkpoints and through security barrier crossings, who may send their children to school, who will be able to reach the universities, and who will receive the medical treatment they need. Israel also continues to hold the private property of tens of thousands of Palestinians.
In Part Four, which covers the “dual regime,” the soldiers’ testimonies show how, in the name of enforcing the law, Israel maintains two legal systems: in one, Palestinians are governed by military rule that is enforced by soldiers and subject to frequent change; in the other, Israeli settlers are subject to predominantly civil law that is passed by a democratically elected legislature and enforced by police. The Israeli legal authority in the Territories does not represent Palestinians and their interests. Rather, they are subordinate to a system through compliance with threats that reinforce Israel’s overall military superiority.
The testimonies in this part also reveal the active role played by settlers in imposing Israel’s military rule. Settlers serve in public positions and are partners in military deliberations and decisions that control the lives of the Palestinians who live in their area of settlement. Settlers often work in the Ministry of Defense as security coordinator for their settlement, in which case they influence all kinds of details affecting the area, such as transportation, road access, and security patrols, and even participate in soldiers’ briefings.
The security forces do not see the settlers as civilians subject to law enforcement but as a powerful body that shares common goals. Even when the wishes of the settlers and the military are at odds, they still ultimately consider each other as partners in a shared struggle and settle their conflict through compromise. As a consequence, the security forces usually acquiesce in the settlers’ goals, if only partially.
It is sometimes claimed that the failure to enforce the law among the settlers is due to the weakness of the Israeli police force. The testimonies in this section strongly suggest otherwise: that the law is not enforced because security forces do not treat settlers as regular citizens but as partners.
Despite its scope, Our Harsh Logic is limited to the information brought to light in the soldiers’ testimonies. It does not describe all the means by which the State of Israel controls the Territories and should not be read as an attempt to address every aspect of the Occupation. The full picture is missing the activities carried out by the General Security Services (Shabak) and other intelligence agencies, as well as the military courts, which constitute an important component of military rule, and additional facets of the military administration. Rather, the purpose of this book is to replace the code words that sterilize public discussion with a more accurate description of Israel’s policies in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
http://iajv99.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/ ... -soldiers/
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I am aware that this is an ongoing conflict, thanks....I didn't need to throw that point away. But I do notice that in your claims of Hamas starting it, and how stupid they are in doing so, because they gained nothing while their gracious hosts were about to bend on certain issues, that you neglected the throw-away point that the Hamas leader assassinated was the one involved in peace talks.
Anyway, I was kind of making the same point as you: that we can go back and forth about who started it, and either come out sounding like a couple of 3rd graders, or going back to the creation of the state of Israel... and accomplishing nothing. I should probably have just left it at that. But having you accuse me of trying to back pedal to a convenient starting point in this current conflict, when that's exactly what I was criticizing you for doing, was too contradictory to let slide.
Now.....since we're going back further with PhillyCoT's completely bias wiki list (notice how the palestinians are repeatedly called terrorists or jihadist militants - thinly veiled condemnation in what is presented as an impartial list?)....
The list mentions some Israeli attacks, but obviously not all, because it mentions in the description of the Oct.8 rocket attack, an "allusion to an Israeli air strike the previous day" that is not listed in the chronology.
Nearly every Palestinian rocket attack listed ends with 'no injuries or damage was reported'....
Then the next line is 'Israel responed with a strike, killing two terrorists' or something of the sort.
Here are the stats I noted:
Israeli casualties:
0 dead (except for goats!).
9 injured (4 of them soldiers).
4 people treated for stress
Palestinian casualties:
15 dead, 5 of them children,
64 injured
This list also glosses over several of the few attacks it does mention with casual statements like 'Israel returned fire at the source of the rockets and hit some of the terrorists'. You can bet the Palestinian casualty list is much higher than that report. I also have to question the repeated claims that Israel fired upon Palestinians " preparing to fire projectiles into Israel"....that sounds like easy cover. Maybe not, but I think I have reason to doubt IDF claims after all the fabrications used to bomb hospitals, schools, UN safehouses, and other civilian targets during Cast Lead, and media centres during this seige.
I also notice that it doesn't mention that the funeral of the 13 year old who was killed playing football was fired upon, either.
Its pretty macabre to use stats like this...but it's important. It completely lays bare the slant of this conflict. When you consider that one side is imprisoned by the other, and the occupier is using such overwhelming force, the propaganda loses any weight it carried.
btw - that involved NO 'fact checking'....only critical thought to read between the lines.
Humanity simply cannot accept the force used by Israel in response to these acts.
the problem is two fold: 1. critical thinking and 2. facts
like with a lot of issues - people get their information from biased sources and ultimately do not take the time to think critically through them ... we've become lazy that way ... and what that ultimately means is that we now live in a world where agendas can easily be accomplished because the world of public opinion can so easily be manipulated ...
Same reason you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
If I thought that and taught that you didn't and shouldn't ever have and presently exist and was going to do about anything to take that right away from you. Would you leave your front door unlocked and food in the oven for when me and my boys came looking for you?
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
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serious question from a newb: do the Palestinians not recognize the STATE of Israel, or the PEOPLE of Israel? Cause really, I can't blame them for not recognizing the state's right to exist, given how it was created.
but if the state of Israel were somewhere else, would they still want them wiped off the map?
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thanks redrock.
so I guess my overly simplistic question is this: if Palestine was the originating state, and Israelies moved in on their territory, then continue to try to take it over, but Palestine was willing to compromise, what the fuck is Israel's problem?
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This does not in any way mean that The US doesnt have its portion here.
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It is not an easy issue. Contrary to all the links and crap on these pages it goes back a tad farther then 67, 45, 33, 0, etc. People have been conquered for ever and nothing is going to change the past, the present or the future. When two or more people claim "land rights" (the quotes are for all the people on this board who oppose lines on maps) what do you think is going to happen. My church was there but my mosque was their first, no my temple was their before you conquered me and I conqured them. And the world keeps spinning and people continue to not get along and of course choose a side. Israeli's claim that they been hard done by all their time on earth and have a book or two or three to prove it. So they say. Then they wanted their land (that they supposedly owned sometime back when the sea was red and oh wait probably longer than that) back and after Germany was through with them, the world powers thought that dusting off part of the desert and claiming their land for them would be a super idea. Well some people didn't think it was a good idea. Of course this led to one side attacking the other, but the attacked side was a little better with playing war then the five or six who decided to gang up on them. The land that the attacked took off the attackers was claimed to be theirs now. And they played keep away. Held it up high enough that the other children couldn't jump high enough to get it. They thought it was a grand idea to have this new land and haven't stopped gaining more and more as the years have rolled on. Come and get it if you want it. :fp:
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
my overly simplistic response to your question would be that ... israel as a democracy has a wide range of representatives across the political spectrum ... it is however the hard right sector that has dominated policy ... under the guise of security - israel has allowed their politicians to take a hard line stance as it relates to palestine ... and in many ways it's sort of like the US in that most of the population do not recognize the impacts of their foreign policy decisions ... this hard right sector has absolutely no interest in having peace with palestine ... because their agenda is to control all the land and what israel is doing is expropriating more and more every day ... this cannot happen with peace ... so, to the ruling party of israel now - peace is NOT good ... without conflict - there is no impetus to govern under the guise of security ... without the threat of conflict ... the right would not rule israel ... and without the right ruling ... we wouldn't have bulldozers taking more and more land away from palestinians and without more and more land being taken away ... we wouldn't have a people fighting back ...