Israel/Gaza

1568101116

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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited November 2012
    JC29856 wrote:
    help
    i keep reading that "hamas wont recognize israels right to exist" and it seems kinda vague...i cant find what this refers to...anyone? what does this mean? were is this stated
    thxs

    Hamas has stated on numerous occasions that it will recognize Israel's right to exist when Israel returns to the June 1967 borders.
    Though the point is moot, as Israel refuses to recognize Palestine's right to exist, as exemplified by their opposition to the Palestinian's seeking member status at the U.N this month.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited November 2012
    How do you not acknowledge that the Palestinians have made many attacks on Israeli citizens for years?

    I've acknowledged many times that the Palestinians have attacked Israel. Though how does this justify or excuse the illegal occupation?
    When will you be packing up and moving from the place that you're occupying?

    What do you mean?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate and kill a couple of their top operatives, and all they get out of it is Israel saying they will continue to do what they were already doing. So, Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians and accomplished - nothing!!!! That's what terrorists do.

    Except that's not what happened at all, as I've already shown.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited November 2012
    So a Jewish state was formed in 1948 where the largest population of Jews existed. And over 30% of the population of Palestine was Jewish.

    Make that 16%.

    Either way, how does that justify the Zionists claiming 56% of the land in 1948?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JC29856 wrote:
    israel "ceasing to exist" means nothing at all, its total made up nonsense...unless of course somehow "terrorists" learn to vaporize entire continents
    serious question from a newb: do the Palestinians not recognize the STATE of Israel, or the PEOPLE of Israel? Cause really, I can't blame them for not recognizing the state's right to exist, given how it was created.


    Why does The Times recognize Israel's 'right to exist'?

    By Saree Makdisi
    03/11/07
    Los Angeles Times


    'AS SOON AS certain topics are raised," George Orwell once wrote, "the concrete melts into the abstract and no one seems able to think of turns of speech that are not hackneyed: Prose consists less and less of words chosen for the sake of their meaning, and more and more of phrases tacked together like the sections of a prefabricated henhouse." Such a combination of vagueness and sheer incompetence in language, Orwell warned, leads to political conformity.

    No issue better illustrates Orwell's point than coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the United States. Consider, for example, the editorial in The Times on Feb. 9 demanding that the Palestinians "recognize Israel" and its "right to exist." This is a common enough sentiment — even a cliche. Yet many observers (most recently the international lawyer John Whitbeck) have pointed out that this proposition, assiduously propagated by Israel's advocates and uncritically reiterated by American politicians and journalists, is — at best — utterly nonsensical.

    First, the formal diplomatic language of "recognition" is traditionally used by one state with respect to another state. It is literally meaningless for a non-state to "recognize" a state. Moreover, in diplomacy, such recognition is supposed to be mutual. In order to earn its own recognition, Israel would have to simultaneously recognize the state of Palestine. This it steadfastly refuses to do (and for some reason, there are no high-minded newspaper editorials demanding that it do so).

    Second, which Israel, precisely, are the Palestinians being asked to "recognize?" Israel has stubbornly refused to declare its own borders. So, territorially speaking, "Israel" is an open-ended concept. Are the Palestinians to recognize the Israel that ends at the lines proposed by the 1947 U.N. Partition Plan? Or the one that extends to the 1949 Armistice Line (the de facto border that resulted from the 1948 war)? Or does Israel include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which it has occupied in violation of international law for 40 years — and which maps in its school textbooks show as part of "Israel"?

    For that matter, why should the Palestinians recognize an Israel that refuses to accept international law, submit to U.N. resolutions or readmit the Palestinians wrongfully expelled from their homes in 1948 and barred from returning ever since?

    If none of these questions are easy to answer, why are such demands being made of the Palestinians? And why is nothing demanded of Israel in turn?

    Orwell was right. It is much easier to recycle meaningless phrases than to ask — let alone to answer — difficult questions. But recycling these empty phrases serves a purpose. Endlessly repeating the mantra that the Palestinians don't recognize Israel helps paint Israel as an innocent victim, politely asking to be recognized but being rebuffed by its cruel enemies.

    Actually, it asks even more. Israel wants the Palestinians, half of whom were driven from their homeland so that a Jewish state could be created in 1948, to recognize not merely that it exists (which is undeniable) but that it is "right" that it exists — that it was right for them to have been dispossessed of their homes, their property and their livelihoods so that a Jewish state could be created on their land. The Palestinians are not the world's first dispossessed people, but they are the first to be asked to legitimize what happened to them.

    A just peace will require Israelis and Palestinians to reconcile and recognize each other's rights. It will not require that Palestinians give their moral seal of approval to the catastrophe that befell them. Meaningless at best, cynical and manipulative at worst, such a demand may suit Israel's purposes, but it does not serve The Times or its readers.

    And yet The Times consistently adopts Israel's language and, hence, its point of view. For example, a recent article on Israel's Palestinian minority referred to that minority not as "Palestinian" but as generically "Arab," Israel's official term for a population whose full political and human rights it refuses to recognize. To fail to acknowledge the living Palestinian presence inside Israel (and its enduring continuity with the rest of the Palestinian people) is to elide the history at the heart of the conflict — and to deny the legitimacy of Palestinian claims and rights.

    This is exactly what Israel wants. Indeed, its demand that its "right to exist" be recognized reflects its own anxiety, not about its existence but about its failure to successfully eliminate the Palestinians' presence inside their homeland — a failure for which verbal recognition would serve merely a palliative and therapeutic function.

    In uncritically adopting Israel's own fraught terminology — a form of verbal erasure designed to extend the physical destruction of Palestine — The Times is taking sides.

    If the paper wants its readers to understand the nature of this conflict, however, it should not go on acting as though only one side has a story to tell.

    SAREE MAKDISI, a professor of English and comparative literature at UCLA, writes frequently about the Middle East.
  • usamamasan1usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS

    =======================================



    The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August

    18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

    is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

    territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive

    manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the

    basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad

    (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS

    Covenant:



    Goals of the HAMAS:


    'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

    movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

    Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

    Palestine.' (Article 6)



    On the Destruction of Israel:


    'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

    obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



    The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:


    'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

    consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

    can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

    (Article 11)



    'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

    Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

    wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



    The Call to Jihad:


    'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

    individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

    it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)



    'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

    everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

    call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will

    reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

    achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'

    (Article 33)



    Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:


    '[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

    international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

    the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

    a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

    Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

    Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

    waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)



    Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:


    'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

    [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

    Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

    agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

    ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

    and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)



    Anti-Semitic Incitement:


    'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

    kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

    rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

    me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)



    'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have

    accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,

    they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred

    revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the

    French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the

    revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret

    organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -

    which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies

    and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...

    and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the

    world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge

    financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them

    having their finger in it.' (Article 22)



    'Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet

    expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have

    finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they

    will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out

    in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32)



    'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the

    circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over

    the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped

    for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'

    (Article 32)
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    There's always more to the story...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

    The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the position of the Palestinian Islamic organization Hamas on many key issues at the time. The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel. The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts. The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.

    In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons." Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office. In 2009 interviews with the BBC, Tony Blair claimed that Hamas does not accept the existence of Israel and continues to pursue their objectives through terror and violence; Sir Jeremy Greenstock however argued that they have not adopted their charter since they won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006 as part of their political program. Instead they have moved to a more secular stance. In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel.


    Relevance of the Charter in the 21st century

    British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006 as part of their political program".

    Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, “It’s a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended... It projects anger, not vision.” Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.

    Dr. Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (the senior political leader of Hamas) has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time. He further states that "the Israelis have, for example, translated the charter to several languages, English and French included, intentionally perverting the substance of its tenets to suit their purposes. Those aims were to market its fraudulent translation to as many Western politicians, academics and media channels as possible; and therefore make it easier to claim security concerns as the basis for their legal infractions. The fear-mongering is designed to horrify the West so much that it turns a blind eye to Israels crimes against humanity which contravene international law".

    In a further move away from their charter Hamas have stated according to Agence France-Presse and Al Jazeera "the question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people." However many remain sceptical of Hamas's new stance, and view it as a ploy to hide its true agenda, "but it is equally true that the “new” discourse of diluted religious content—to say nothing of the movement’s increasing pragmatism and flexibility in the political domain—reflects genuine and cumulative changes within Hamas."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I suppose the Communist Manifesto means we should revert back to the Cold War.

    In the meantime, maybe I should list a bunch of quotes from various members of the Zionist leadership down the years to see just what they have had to say about the situation?

    "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
    -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


    "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
    -- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


    "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
    -- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.


    "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
    -- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971


    "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
    -- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


    "[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
    -- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)


    "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
    -- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


    "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
    -- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.


    "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
    -- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.


    "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
    -- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988


    "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
    -- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.


    "I would have joined a terrorist organization."
    -- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.


    "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
    -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


    "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
    -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


    "Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
    -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online.


    "I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.
    Former Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, speaking to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, on Dec. 17, 1982.


    "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."
    First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion

    "The Jewish State cannot exist without a special ideological content. We cannot exist for long like any other state whose main interests is to insure the welfare of its citizens."
    -- Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, New York Times, 14 July 1992
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited November 2012
    Hamas offers truce in return for 1967 borders

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 45,00.html
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    just saw this on facebook and twitter posted within the last 1/2 hour. anyone in the middle east have any info on this?? i googled and could not find a link, but these are the headlines popping up right now...


    "Breaking News : Israeli army opened fire towards the Palestinian Farmers East Khanyounis city where 1 Killed and more than 7 injured one of the injures in a critical condition. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Violation of the Truce
    via Hani Siliman salamah"
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    this is the first link i have found regarding this morning's incident...

    Medics: Man killed by Israeli fire near Gaza border

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=541286

    GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces killed a 20-year-old Palestinian man near the Israeli border in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday morning, medical officials said.

    Medics said Anwar Abdul Hadi Qudaih, 20, was hit in the head with a live bullet east of Khan Younis.

    Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra said 19 others were wounded by Israeli fire in the border area.

    Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri accused Israel of violating the Egypt-mediated truce and said the group would complain to Cairo. "We will contact the Egyptian mediator to discuss the incident," he said.

    An Israeli military spokeswoman said the army was checking reports of the incident.

    Witnesses told Ma'an a group of citizens were gathering to perform Friday prayer on their land near the border.

    A relative of the dead man, who was at the scene, told Reuters that Qudaih had been trying to place a Hamas flag on the fence. He added that an Israeli soldier had fired into the air three times before Qdeih was hit in the head by a bullet.

    Medics said four Palestinians were wounded by Israeli fire on Thursday near the fence. An army spokesman said 200 Palestinians approached the fence and "began rioting" before causing damage to the fence.

    Wednesday's ceasefire deal ended eight days of fierce fighting that left some 170 Palestinians and six Israelis dead.

    According to the terms of the accord, both Israelis and Palestinians agreed to stop their hostilities. However, the brief document left details on access to the tense border zone to be worked out in the days ahead.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • this is the first link i have found regarding this morning's incident...

    Medics: Man killed by Israeli fire near Gaza border

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=541286

    GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces killed a 20-year-old Palestinian man near the Israeli border in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday morning, medical officials said.

    Medics said Anwar Abdul Hadi Qudaih, 20, was hit in the head with a live bullet east of Khan Younis.

    Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra said 19 others were wounded by Israeli fire in the border area.

    Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri accused Israel of violating the Egypt-mediated truce and said the group would complain to Cairo. "We will contact the Egyptian mediator to discuss the incident," he said.

    An Israeli military spokeswoman said the army was checking reports of the incident.

    Witnesses told Ma'an a group of citizens were gathering to perform Friday prayer on their land near the border.

    A relative of the dead man, who was at the scene, told Reuters that Qudaih had been trying to place a Hamas flag on the fence. He added that an Israeli soldier had fired into the air three times before Qdeih was hit in the head by a bullet.

    Medics said four Palestinians were wounded by Israeli fire on Thursday near the fence. An army spokesman said 200 Palestinians approached the fence and "began rioting" before causing damage to the fence.

    Wednesday's ceasefire deal ended eight days of fierce fighting that left some 170 Palestinians and six Israelis dead.

    According to the terms of the accord, both Israelis and Palestinians agreed to stop their hostilities. However, the brief document left details on access to the tense border zone to be worked out in the days ahead.
    always the same shit...
    why to go on the fence when you know they gonna shoot you??
    why you shoot someone on the fence when u can just arrest him??

    how easily they fuck up the truce....
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    this is the first link i have found regarding this morning's incident...

    Medics: Man killed by Israeli fire near Gaza border

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=541286

    GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces killed a 20-year-old Palestinian man near the Israeli border in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday morning, medical officials said.

    Medics said Anwar Abdul Hadi Qudaih, 20, was hit in the head with a live bullet east of Khan Younis.

    Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra said 19 others were wounded by Israeli fire in the border area.

    Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri accused Israel of violating the Egypt-mediated truce and said the group would complain to Cairo. "We will contact the Egyptian mediator to discuss the incident," he said.

    An Israeli military spokeswoman said the army was checking reports of the incident.

    Witnesses told Ma'an a group of citizens were gathering to perform Friday prayer on their land near the border.

    A relative of the dead man, who was at the scene, told Reuters that Qudaih had been trying to place a Hamas flag on the fence. He added that an Israeli soldier had fired into the air three times before Qdeih was hit in the head by a bullet.

    Medics said four Palestinians were wounded by Israeli fire on Thursday near the fence. An army spokesman said 200 Palestinians approached the fence and "began rioting" before causing damage to the fence.

    Wednesday's ceasefire deal ended eight days of fierce fighting that left some 170 Palestinians and six Israelis dead.

    According to the terms of the accord, both Israelis and Palestinians agreed to stop their hostilities. However, the brief document left details on access to the tense border zone to be worked out in the days ahead.
    always the same shit...
    why to go on the fence when you know they gonna shoot you??
    why you shoot someone on the fence when u can just arrest him??

    how easily they fuck up the truce....


    Hamas/terrorist do not follow agreements......they play dirty.....how do we even know they are civilian when Hamas does not were uniforms....they can claim anyone and everyone killed is a civilian....they are cowards/savages
    only savages would drag dead humans through the streets!.... sodomize humans!
    There is NO excuse for the things they do!
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,717
    edited November 2012
    aerial wrote:
    this is the first link i have found regarding this morning's incident...

    Medics: Man killed by Israeli fire near Gaza border

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=541286

    GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces killed a 20-year-old Palestinian man near the Israeli border in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday morning, medical officials said.

    Medics said Anwar Abdul Hadi Qudaih, 20, was hit in the head with a live bullet east of Khan Younis.

    Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qidra said 19 others were wounded by Israeli fire in the border area.

    Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri accused Israel of violating the Egypt-mediated truce and said the group would complain to Cairo. "We will contact the Egyptian mediator to discuss the incident," he said.

    An Israeli military spokeswoman said the army was checking reports of the incident.

    Witnesses told Ma'an a group of citizens were gathering to perform Friday prayer on their land near the border.

    A relative of the dead man, who was at the scene, told Reuters that Qudaih had been trying to place a Hamas flag on the fence. He added that an Israeli soldier had fired into the air three times before Qdeih was hit in the head by a bullet.

    Medics said four Palestinians were wounded by Israeli fire on Thursday near the fence. An army spokesman said 200 Palestinians approached the fence and "began rioting" before causing damage to the fence.

    Wednesday's ceasefire deal ended eight days of fierce fighting that left some 170 Palestinians and six Israelis dead.

    According to the terms of the accord, both Israelis and Palestinians agreed to stop their hostilities. However, the brief document left details on access to the tense border zone to be worked out in the days ahead.
    always the same shit...
    why to go on the fence when you know they gonna shoot you??
    why you shoot someone on the fence when u can just arrest him??

    how easily they fuck up the truce....


    Hamas/terrorist do not follow agreements......they play dirty.....how do we even know they are civilian when Hamas does not were uniforms....they can claim anyone and everyone killed is a civilian....they are cowards/savages
    only savages would drag dead humans through the streets!.... sodomize humans!
    There is NO excuse for the things they do!
    Attitudes such as this will keep things exactly as they are. And my statement should not be taken as condoning acts such as described, but we are talking about human beings pushed to their limits. Not sure how I would act/react to the things they must face everyday.

    I think to start the long held resentments need to be set aside for cooler heads to prevail and see the long term implications.
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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  • always the same shit...
    why to go on the fence when you know they gonna shoot you??
    why you shoot someone on the fence when u can just arrest him??

    how easily they fuck up the truce....


    You're telling me. The same links to stuff that has happened in the last 50 years. I don't think some people realize this has been going on for a bit longer then that. And somebody asked me the other day if I had a pulse on what goes on over there.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • always the same shit...
    why to go on the fence when you know they gonna shoot you??
    why you shoot someone on the fence when u can just arrest him??

    how easily they fuck up the truce....


    You're telling me. The same links to stuff that has happened in the last 50 years. I don't think some people realize this has been going on for a bit longer then that. And somebody asked me the other day if I had a pulse on what goes on over there.
    pffff...you dont have to be smart as Albert Einstein just for use common sense..

    they want this mess to continue..there is no logic explanation..
    if u want to find a solution..you will find it..you take one step front,one back,one in the right,one in the left..
    and u find the common step...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    I don't know how many people will bother reading this...its a bit long...but the Cole's Notes versions is this:
    the figures the IDF has been using on both social and traditional media for Israeli casualties, and for the number and lethality of Gazan rocket attacks...they are ALL inflated to make Hamas look like the aggressor, and Israel a greater victim. The author uses the Israeli governments own intelligence numbers to debunk the military propaganda used to justify their latest (so far) failed attempt at 'restoring deterrence capacity'....






    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/dissectin ... tacks.html


    Dissecting IDF propaganda: The numbers behind the rocket attacks
    by Phan Nguyen on November 17, 2012

    In this brief study, I examine the many numbers cited by the Israeli military relating to Gaza rocket attacks into Israel.

    To begin, Israeli spokespeople frequently remind the world that a million Israeli citizens are within range of Gaza rockets, twelve thousand of which have been fired into Israel in the last twelve years, inflicting thousands of injuries and several dead.

    However, we are rarely told exactly how many people have been killed by these rocket attacks.

    Counting the dead

    Below is a list of all the fatalities of rocket and mortar attacks fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel in the entire history of these attacks. Throughout the years of rocket attacks into Israel, a total of 26 people have been killed altogether.

    Fatalities from rocket and mortar attacks in Israel from the Gaza Strip
    Date of attack Name Age Location Weapon
    2004.06.28 Mordechai Yosephov 49 Sderot Qassam
    2004.06.28 Afik Ohion Zehavi 4 Sderot Qassam
    2004.09.29 Yuval Abebeh 4 Sderot Qassam
    2004.09.29 Dorit (Masarat) Benisian 2 Sderot Qassam
    2005.01.15 Ayala-Haya Abukasis 17 Sderot Qassam
    2005.07.15 Dana Gelkowitz 22 Moshav Nativ Ha‘asara Qassam
    2006.03.28 Salam Ziadin* ? Nahal Oz Qassam‡
    2006.03.28 Khalid Ziadin* 16 Nahal Oz Qassam‡
    2006.11.15 Faina Slutzker 57 Sderot Qassam
    2006.11.21 Yaakov Yaakobov 43 Sderot Qassam
    2007.05.21 Shirel Friedman 32 Sderot Qassam
    2007.05.27 Oshri Oz 36 Sderot Qassam
    2008.02.27 Roni Yihye 47 Sderot Qassam
    2008.05.09 Jimmy Kedoshim 48 Kibbutz Kfar Aza mortar
    2008.05.12 Shuli Katz 70 Moshav Yesha Qassam
    2008.06.05 Amnon Rosenberg 51 Kibbutz Nir-Oz mortar
    2008.12.27 Beber Vaknin 58 Netivot Qassam
    2008.12.29 Lutfi Nasraladin*† 38 IDF base near Nahal Oz mortar
    2008.12.29 Irit Sheetrit 39 Ashdod Grad
    2008.12.29 Hani al Mahdi* 27 Ashkelon Grad

    2010.03.18 Manee Singueanphon* 30 Moshav Nativ Ha‘asara Qassam
    2011.08.20 Yossi Shushan 38 Be’er sheva Grad
    2011.10.29 Moshe Ami 56 Ashkelon Grad
    2012.11.15 Yitzchak Amsalem 24 Kiryat Malachi rocket
    2012.11.15 Mira Sharf 25 Kiryat Malachi rocket
    2012.11.15 Aharon Smadja 49 Kiryat Malachi rocket

    Operation Cast Lead: December 27, 2008–January 18, 2009
    Operation Pillar of Cloud: November 14, 2012–


    Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks
    from Gaza into Israel: 26

    (Refer to the bottom of the page for notes and sources.)

    The shaded [blue] rows in the table refer to fatalities sustained during Operation Cast Lead (December 27, 2008–January 18, 2009) and Operation Pillar of Cloud (November 14, 2012–).

    Note that of the 26 fatalities from rocket and mortar attacks, more than one out of every four deaths occurred during these two operations, which were ostensibly designed to deter rocket attacks.

    For the entire duration of the 2008 Hamas–Israel cease-fire—even after Israel had broken the cease-fire on Nov. 4—not a single person was killed by rocket or mortar fire into Israel. Yet approximately two hours after Israel’s commencement of Operation Cast Lead, one person in Israel was struck and killed by shrapnel from a Qassam rocket. Two days later, three more people were killed in Israel from Gaza rocket and mortar attacks.

    And for an entire year before Operation Pillar of Cloud, not a single Israeli was killed by rocket or mortar. Yet approximately sixteen hours after Pillar of Cloud commenced, a rocket from Gaza killed three Israelis.

    It was during both military operations that Israel endured the highest number of fatalities from Gaza rockets and mortars in the shortest time spans.

    The data is too scant to a draw a more definite conclusion (and it is scant because fatalities are so rare), but one can suspect a pattern:

    Rocket fatalities are more likely to happen during major Israel “anti-rocket” operations. Note that I say that fatalities are more likely to happen, rather than fatalities increase. Because fatalities are so rare, when they do happen in a burst, they appear more as instigations rather than incidental progressions.

    This disputes the clichéd notion that rocket attacks are “designed to maximize civilian casualties.” Indeed, with such a low fatality rate and with the characteristic imprecision of the weapons, they cannot be expected to inflict a fatality most of the time.

    At the same time, armed groups in Gaza are capable of increasing the likelihood of fatalities when prompted.

    A verrry slow genocide

    If we borrow the IDF’s claim that more than 12,000 rockets have been fired into Israel in the last twelve years (which I dispute later), we get a kill rate of less than 0.217%. Thus in order to secure a single kill, we should expect to fire about 500 rockets. However, if the goal is to specifically kill Jews rather than foreign workers and Palestinian laborers, then it gets harder. Only 21 Jews have been killed by this method, bringing the kill rate down to 0.175%.

    If this sounds disturbing or even anti-Semitic, note that I am just testing the argument of the current Israeli ambassador Michael Oren, who, during Operation Cast Lead, co-wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal claiming that the Gaza rockets and mortars were “more than a crude attempt to kill and terrorize civilians—they were expressions of a genocidal intent.”

    Yet the statistics demonstrate that it is much less than a “crude attempt to kill.” One can imagine easier ways to kill a random person than to manufacture and fire 500+ homemade rockets.

    As for genocide, at the going kill rate, it would require 4,477,714,286 rockets and mortars, and 4,477,714 years to kill all the Jews in Israel. This is assuming that Israel’s Jewish population does not increase. And of course we would need to factor in the limited range of the projectiles, which would require Israel’s non-growing Jewish population to all congregate in the western Negev by the year 4479726 CE, give or take a few years.

    But by then, all of Israel’s Jewish population will have already been exterminated by the country’s other violent killer, automotive accidents.

    It makes more sense, then, to suppose that there are political rationales for the firing of rockets and mortars.

    The IDF’s mysterious deaths

    Now that we’ve established that a total of twenty-six people have been killed by high-trajectory weapons from Gaza into Israel, let’s look at some of the numbers that the Israeli military has been peddling.

    In keeping up with its social media focus, IDF 2.0 has been distributing infographics through Facebook, Twitter, and an official blog, encouraging subscribers to share the images. One recent infographic makes the following claims about the number of Israeli casualties from rocket attacks:
    th_IDF-Hamas-rocket-threat-1_zps46acfbe7.jpg

    First, let’s compare the IDF’s fatalities numbers to the numbers that I’ve established:

    Number of rocket/mortar fatalities by year, 2006–2011
    IDF claim Established

    2006 9 4
    2007 10 2
    2008 15 8
    2009 2 0
    2010 5 1
    2011 3 2

    For every year listed, the IDF’s rocket fatalities number is higher than what has been established. Could it be due to different interpretations of the figures? We can try to find out by examining the fatalities for each year:

    2006

    In 2006, at the tail end of the second intifada, there were several Israeli fatalities, including a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv, another suicide bombing in the West Bank, several shootings of soldiers and settlers in the West Bank, two soldiers killed by sniper fire in separate incidents in the Gaza Strip, and the capture of Gilad Shalit in a Hamas/PRC operation that left two other soldiers dead. However, there were only two people who were killed in Israel by rocket strikes. Another two, a Bedouin father and son, were killed while attempting to move an unexploded Qassam rocket for salvaging. Their deaths are not listed in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs page as deaths by Palestinian attacks. Nevertheless, I included them in my listing, making four deaths by rockets in 2006.

    For 2006, it is unknown how the IDF transformed four rocket fatalities into nine.


    2007
    In 2007, two Qassam rockets killed two people in Sderot. There was one other incident in Israel that produced fatalities—a suicide bombing that killed three people in a bakery in Eilat. Beyond that, four soldiers were killed by gunfire in the West Bank, one settler was gunned down in a drive-by, another settler was stabbed to death by unknown assailants, and three soldiers were killed in separate gunfights in the Gaza Strip. Altogether, sixteen were killed, only two of whom were by rockets—not ten, as asserted by the IDF. The IDF’s claim is also contradicted by Shin Bet (the Israeli Security Agency), which reported that in 2007, “rocket fire killed two Israeli civilians.”

    For 2007, it is unknown how the IDF transformed two fatalities into ten.

    2008
    In 2008, eight people were killed by rockets and mortars from Gaza. Four were killed in the first half of the year prior to the “tahdiya” ceasefire. As soon as Israel launched Operation Cast Lead, four more people were killed by Gaza rockets and mortars. Yet the IDF graphic claims 15 fatalities. Again, this claim is contradicted by the Shin Bet, which reported that in 2008,

    8 people (4 during the final days of December) were killed by high-trajectory fire (rockets and mortars) from the Gaza Strip.

    For 2008, it is unknown how the IDF transformed eight fatalities into fifteen.

    2009
    In 2009, there was one conflict-related civilian death in Israel by Palestinians: A Jewish Israeli taxi driver was strangled to death by three Palestinians as revenge for the IDF killing of a relative. Outside of that, a 16-year old boy in the Bat Ayin settlement was killed by a lone Palestinian with an axe, two police officers were shot to death in the Jordan Valley, a settler near Nablus was shot in a drive-by, and a soldier was killed by an explosive detonation on the Gaza border. No one in Israel was killed by rocket or mortar from Gaza, even though the IDF claims two.

    This is corroborated by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), which stated that:

    In the two years since Operation Cast Lead there has been a significant decrease in the number of Israelis killed and wounded by terrorist organizations operating in the Gaza Strip. There have been five deaths, one civilian (a worker from Thailand) killed by a rocket attack [which was in 2010] and four IDF soldiers killed during counterterrorism activities.

    At the start of 2009, during Cast Lead, nine IDF soldiers were killed in the Gaza Strip, four of which were by friendly fire. Of the remaining five, one was killed by a mortar round while the other was killed by an anti-tank missile.

    For 2009, there were no deaths in Israel from Gaza rockets or mortars. The only way to claim two fatalities would be to include the deaths of two soldiers engaged in a military invasion inside the Gaza Strip, which would be misleading for the message being conveyed by the infographic.

    2010
    The IDF inexplicably attributes five deaths in 2010 to Hamas rockets and mortars. There were either nine or eleven Israeli fatalities relating to the Palestine/Israel conflict in that year, depending on the interpretation: the Shin Bet says there were nine fatalities relating to the conflict, while the Ministry of Foreign Affairs records eleven. Of the eleven fatalities listed by the MFA, two were committed by a Palestinian criminal gang (one strangulation and one stabbing), one was a knifing of an IDF soldier in the West Bank, four settlers were killed by gunfire in their car on a segregated road near Hebron, two soldiers entered the Gaza Strip and were killed in a shootout with Palestinian gunmen, and one police officer was shot to death just south of Hebron. Only one fatality was due to a Qassam rocket.

    For 2010, it is unknown how the IDF transformed one fatality into five.

    2011
    In 2011, there were only two rocket fatalities. The third fatality could be attributed to the April 7, 2011 killing of Daniel Vlific by an anti-tank missile. I explain in the note below why his death is generally not considered a high-trajectory rocket/mortar fatality. However, in this case, the IDF graphic does depict anti-tank missiles as part of the “Hamas Rocket Threat,” so the count of three fatalities can be considered correct. (Note, however, that in another IDF graphic, also entited “Hamas Rocket Threat,” anti-tank missiles are not included, as their limited ranges would undermine the intended message of a far-reaching threat.)

    Thus, for 2011, the IDF number is correct if we include an anti-tank missile strike on April 7.

    Conclusion
    In the infographic, all of the IDF’s fatality numbers are exaggerated, with the exception of the fatality number for 2011.

    Wounded by “shock”

    The same IDF infographic lists the number of people injured by rocket/mortar attacks. Thus we learn, for example, that in 2008, 611 people were injured by rocket and mortar attacks:

    th_IDF-Hamas-rocket-threat-1b_zps7f68bd1f.jpg

    For obvious reasons, counting the injured requires more subjective assessment than counting the dead. And when it comes to Gazan rockets and mortars, Israeli authorities push the limits of subjectivity.

    Gaza rockets have produced so few casualties that in the absence of deaths and serious injuries, Israeli authorities have resorted to detailing how many people were “treated for shock,” which the press has duly noted over the years.

    Thus we are treated to shocking reports such as this Nov. 12 Haaretz article, concerning a rocket that landed on the yard of a house in Netivot:

    The hit on Netivot left no casualties, but 20 people were treated for shock after the incident. [My emphases here and below]

    And here’s the Jerusalem Post on Nov. 15:

    MDA [Israeli emergency medical responders] on Wednesday treated a total of 16 people for injury or shock after a bevy of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip struck Israeli territory.


    Injury or shock? How many of the 16 were physically injured?

    According to MDA, two people were lightly injured in Beersheba, one from shattered glass and the other from falling down the stairs. Fourteen more were treated for shock as well, 12 in Beersheba and two in Sderot.

    Though Haaretz may make a distinction between “casualties” and those treated for shock (which confirms that we are talking about acute stress response, rather than, say, hypovolemic or cardiogenic shock), not everybody does so.

    The Shin Bet, for instance, claims that rocket attacks in 2007 “lightly injured more than 300 persons, most of whom suffered shock.”

    The following year, the Shin Bet reported that out of the supposedly 630 Israelis wounded in “terror attacks” in 2008,

    The majority of the wounded in 2008 (about 400 people) were wounded by high-trajectory fire from the Gaza Strip. This data includes victims of shock as a result of high-trajectory fire.

    Shin Bet numbers on injuries aren’t available for every year, so let’s just compare the 2007 and 2008 rocket injuries number with the IDF’s:

    Number of injuries from Gaza rocket and mortar attacks into Israel
    IDF Shin Bet

    2007 578 more than 300 (most from shock)
    2008 611 about 400 (including victims of shock)

    How did the IDF come up with more than 200 injuries than the Shin Bet for each year? And are the Shin Bet figures subsets of the IDF figures (meaning the IDF also included hundreds of victims of “shock”), or are they different (meaning the IDF actually found much more than 200 additional injuries per year)?

    Regardless, there seems to be some very loose playing with the numbers. Oh, but it gets looser...

    Number of rockets and mortars fired into Israel from Gaza


    For its latest invasion of Gaza, Israel unveiled a cool new feature that rivals all your iPad apps: the Rocket Counter widget. Now you never have to guess how many rockets have hit Israel. You only have to wonder why the numbers are so damn inconsistent:

    th_IDF-rocket-counter_zpsa1016bd2.png

    According to the IDF Rocket Counter widget, some time between Nov. 15, 2012 (left) and Nov. 16, 2012 (right), Gaza militant groups fired 24 rockets out of the year 2011.

    The screenshot on the left shows the widget display on Thursday, November 15. The screenshot on the right shows the widget display a day later. On Thursday, the widget explained that there were 651 rockets that hit Israel in 2011. On Friday, the number changed to 627, despite the fact that the year 2011 is too recent to have made a comeback.

    Moreover, supposedly 122 rockets had hit Israel between the time of the screenshots on Thursday and Friday (396–274=122). It would follow, then, that the full 2012 figure of 822 would also increase by 122, giving us a total of 944. Instead it jumped to 1,197, an increase of 375 (1197–822=375). What accounts for the 253-rocket surplus in 2012 and the 24-rocket deficit in 2011?

    Part of the explanation may lie in another chart that the IDF has been peddling. The bar chart below, taken from the IDF blog, purports to show the number of rockets fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip.

    th_IDF-bar-graph_zps2d4a3b9a.png

    The Rocker Counter widget appeared on the same blog page, and on Thursday, it seemed peculiar that two IDF graphics on a single page gave contradictory reports on how many rockets were fired in 2011. Eventually the widget was perhaps adjusted to conform to the bar chart.

    However, it still does not explain why the other widget numbers do not add up. Nor does it explain where the 651 figure came from.

    To make matters even more complicated, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) has long promoted the figures collected by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC).

    Below is a comparison of the number of Gaza rocket and mortar attacks into Israel, accoording to both the IDF and the ITIC.

    Number of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza,
    by year, as reported by the IDF and the ITIC

    IDF ITIC
    2001 510 249
    2002 661 292
    2003 848 420
    2004 1528 1157
    2005 488 417
    2006 1123 968
    2007 2427 1536
    2008 3278 2471
    2009 774 266
    2010 231 156
    2011 627 n/a
    2012 1197+ n/a

    Note the wide discrepency for almost every year, with the IDF numbers being significantly higher than the ITIC numbers. We can add to the embarrassment by referring to a page about “The Hamas Terror War Against Israel” on the website of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which reproduces both the IDF bar chart and rocket numbers as reported by ITIC—contradictory information, presented together in a single page by the Israeli government, in order to explain “The Hamas Terror War Against Israel.”

    And then consider a quote by the Israeli ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, in an interview conducted on November 14:
    This government has exhibited superhuman restraint: 2,500 rockets since 2009. Last month, 800 rockets. In the last week, 300 rockets. What government in the world wouldn’t have responded with war a long time ago?

    No other Israeli agency claims that 800 rockets were fired in October 2012. Shin Bet claims 171 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza in October.

    Conclusion

    It can be argued that numbers ultimately don’t matter: One death is a death too many; one rocket is a rocket too many. But if that is the case, why do the IDF and related Israeli agencies need to inflate or fabricate numbers? Why has the numbers game been the cornerstone of Israeli rhetoric about rockets, as depicted in these other recent IDF graphics:

    th_IDF-zillion-rockets_zps486cb6e7.jpg

    One of the most cynical uses of numbers is in this tweet by IDF spokesperson Maj. Peter Lerner:
    th_IDF-Lerner-tweet_zps8c061103.png

    Perhaps inadvertently hinting at the causality (422 Gaza rockets fired since the start of Operation Pillar of Cloud), Lerner offers a circular argument, suggesting that the IDF military operation in Gaza is a justifiable response to the Gazan response to the operation itself. Operation Pillar of Cloud is necessary to prevent actions—which are a response to the operation—from ever happening. And the fact that it has since happened, justifies having made it happen, to prevent it from happening again.

    The same reasoning applies to this new IDF graphic:
    th_IDF-three-civilians_zps7d9f6239.png

    After a full year of no Israelis being killed by rocket fire from Gaza, Israel had to invade Gaza, prompting the new killing of three Israeli civilians, which provides retroactive justification for the prompting itself.

    Still, this is part of the story. As much as the IDF loves to play with numbers, there are certain numbers that it avoids, such as the numbers behind the artillery fire leveled against Gaza, which rivals the number of rocket attacks from Gaza.

    That will be treated in a future post.


    (footnotes follow)
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    This is the head of the IDF's social media? The guy who is supposed to convince the world via social media that Israel is not a racist apartheid state? :lol:..... :fp:


    IDF spokesman posts blackface photo of himself as Obama, then issues non-apology
    by Phil Weiss on November 25, 2012

    Sacha-Dratwa-in-black-face-Obama-Style_zpsc8c35815.jpg

    Sacha Dratwa in black face Obama Style, at ASG

    The above picture was posted by Israeli army social media official Sacha Dratwa on his Facebook page back in September, and reported three days ago by this site.

    Dratwa has tried to explain the picture:

    There have been attempts to make use of private photos from my Facebook profile in order to publicly misrepresent my opinions. Due to the amount of public attention I've garnered in recent days I have decided to restrict access to my page, in order to protect my privacy and prevent further cynical use of the information therein.

    I am, and have always been, completely candid about my beliefs and have nothing to hide – as reflected by my Facebook profile, which until recently was open to everyone. The aforementioned photos do not reflect my beliefs and have no bearing whatsoever on my position in the IDF.


    By the way, Tablet ran a piece about Dratwa after this photo was posted. So did Gawker. Al Akhbar:

    A photo uploaded on September 29 to the Facebook profile of the head of the IDF’s social media unit depicts the lieutenant posing with brown mud on his face under the caption: “Obama style.”

    Until today, when the photo began to circulate outside of Israeli circles, none of Dratwa’s friends or any of the 1,639 subscribers appeared to have expressed misgivings about the photo. Curiously, Gawker ran a story about Dratwa's public Facebook presence only yesterday featuring his photos – but omitted any reference to the brownface Obama one.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/idf-spoke ... ology.html
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas/terrorist do not follow agreements......they play dirty.....how do we even know they are civilian when Hamas does not were uniforms....they can claim anyone and everyone killed is a civilian....they are cowards/savages
    only savages would drag dead humans through the streets!.... sodomize humans!
    There is NO excuse for the things they do!

    [Personal comments removed by Admin. Stop it.]
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas/terrorist do not follow agreements......they play dirty.....how do we even know they are civilian when Hamas does not were uniforms....they can claim anyone and everyone killed is a civilian....they are cowards/savages
    only savages would drag dead humans through the streets!.... sodomize humans!
    There is NO excuse for the things they do!

    [Personal comments removed by Admin. Stop it.]

    problem is, Byrnzie spoke the truth.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Byrnzie wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Hamas/terrorist do not follow agreements......they play dirty.....how do we even know they are civilian when Hamas does not were uniforms....they can claim anyone and everyone killed is a civilian....they are cowards/savages
    only savages would drag dead humans through the streets!.... sodomize humans!
    There is NO excuse for the things they do!

    [Personal comments removed by Admin. Stop it.]

    problem is, Byrnzie spoke the truth.

    Thanks. I'm still curious as to where she got the idea that Muslims are sodomites.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Hmm, what a dick.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 66,00.html

    Stevie Wonder to perform for IDF

    Popular American musician to take part in annual gala of Friends of IDF organization in Los Angeles

    Yedioth Ahronoth
    11.25.12



    The annual gala of the Friends of the Israel Defense Forces (FIDF) organization will be held on Thursday, December 6, at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza in Los Angeles.

    The event will be hosted by Cheryl and Haim Saban and is expected to be attended by more than 1,000 members of the Los Angeles Jewish community. The gala is considered one of the organization's flagship events and is known to raise millions of dollars.

    The world's leading artists have performed at the event over the years, and this year Saban managed to recruit Stevie Wonder. Last year the audience had the privilege of listening to Barbra Streisand, and the year before they enjoyed a performance by Italian tenor Andrea Bocelli.

    According to Haim Saban, "The annual FIDF Western Region Gala has become a tradition and a must-attend event for the Los Angeles Jewish community. The event connects the warm community to the IDF's soldiers, and this is our opportunity to thank the soldiers who defend the State."

    The guests of honor at the gala will include FIDF National Director Major-General (Res.) Yitzhak 'Jerry' Gershon, FIDF Chairman Nily Falic, FIDF National President Julian Josephson, Israeli-American businessman and leader of the Los Angeles Jewish community Eli Tene.

    FIDF is a non-profit organization which has been operating in the United States for 31 years. It was founded by a group of Holocaust survivors who immigrated to the US to provide for the wellbeing of the men and women who serve in the IDF as well as the familiesof fallen soldiers.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Hmm, what a dick.


    Stevie Wonder to perform for IDF

    Popular American musician to take part in annual gala of Friends of IDF organization in Los Angeles

    Yedioth Ahronoth
    11.25.12



    The annual gala of the Friends of the Israel Defense Forces (FIDF) organization will be held on Thursday, December 6, at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza in Los Angeles.

    FIDF is a non-profit organization which has been operating in the United States for 31 years. It was founded by a group of Holocaust survivors who immigrated to the US to provide for the wellbeing of the men and women who serve in the IDF as well as the familiesof fallen soldiers.

    Why? Because he doesn't support what you do?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Hmm, what a dick.


    Stevie Wonder to perform for IDF

    Popular American musician to take part in annual gala of Friends of IDF organization in Los Angeles

    Yedioth Ahronoth
    11.25.12



    The annual gala of the Friends of the Israel Defense Forces (FIDF) organization will be held on Thursday, December 6, at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza in Los Angeles.

    FIDF is a non-profit organization which has been operating in the United States for 31 years. It was founded by a group of Holocaust survivors who immigrated to the US to provide for the wellbeing of the men and women who serve in the IDF as well as the familiesof fallen soldiers.

    Why? Because he doesn't support what you do?

    uhhh ... that's pretty obvious no!?? ... :?
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Hmm, what a dick.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 66,00.html

    Stevie Wonder to perform for IDF

    Popular American musician to take part in annual gala of Friends of IDF organization in Los Angeles

    Yedioth Ahronoth
    11.25.12



    The annual gala of the Friends of the Israel Defense Forces (FIDF) organization will be held on Thursday, December 6, at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza in Los Angeles.

    The event will be hosted by Cheryl and Haim Saban and is expected to be attended by more than 1,000 members of the Los Angeles Jewish community. The gala is considered one of the organization's flagship events and is known to raise millions of dollars.

    The world's leading artists have performed at the event over the years, and this year Saban managed to recruit Stevie Wonder. Last year the audience had the privilege of listening to Barbra Streisand, and the year before they enjoyed a performance by Italian tenor Andrea Bocelli.

    According to Haim Saban, "The annual FIDF Western Region Gala has become a tradition and a must-attend event for the Los Angeles Jewish community. The event connects the warm community to the IDF's soldiers, and this is our opportunity to thank the soldiers who defend the State."

    The guests of honor at the gala will include FIDF National Director Major-General (Res.) Yitzhak 'Jerry' Gershon, FIDF Chairman Nily Falic, FIDF National President Julian Josephson, Israeli-American businessman and leader of the Los Angeles Jewish community Eli Tene.

    FIDF is a non-profit organization which has been operating in the United States for 31 years. It was founded by a group of Holocaust survivors who immigrated to the US to provide for the wellbeing of the men and women who serve in the IDF as well as the familiesof fallen soldiers.

    calling Stevie Wonder a dick? are you just trying to be provocative now?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    speaking of sodomy...Ron Paul doesnt bend over and grab his ankles for Israel, thats for sure....

    As of late Friday the ceasefire in Gaza seems to be holding, if tentatively. While we should be pleased that this round of fighting appears temporarily on hold, we must realize that without changes in US foreign policy it is only a matter of time before the killing begins again.

    It feels like 2009 all over again, which is the last time this kind of violence broke out in Gaza. At that time over 1,400 Palestinians were killed, of which just 235 were combatants. The Israelis lost 13 of which 10 were combatants. At that time I said of then-President Bush’s role in the conflict:

    “It’s our money and our weapons. But I think we encouraged it. Certainly, the president has said nothing to diminish it. As a matter of fact, he justifies it on moral grounds, saying, oh, they have a right to do this, without ever mentioning the tragedy of Gaza…. To me, I look at it like a concentration camp.”

    The US role has not changed under the Obama administration. The same mistakes continue. As journalist Glenn Greenwald wrote last week:

    “For years now, US financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on Gazans, and the planes they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the US taxpayer…”

    Last week, as the fighting raged, President Obama raced to express US support for the Israeli side, in a statement that perfectly exemplifies the tragic-comedy of US foreign policy. The US supported the Israeli side because, he said, “No country on Earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.” Considering that this president rains down missiles on Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and numerous other countries on a daily basis, the statement was so hypocritical that it didn’t pass the laugh test. But it wasn’t funny.

    US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton traveled to Tel Aviv to meet with Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, but she refused to meet with elected Palestinian leaders. Clintonsaid upon arrival in Israel, “America’s commitment to Israel’s security is rock-solid and unwavering.” Does this sound like an honest broker?

    At the same time Congress acted with similar ignobility when an unannounced resolution was brought to the House floor after the business of the week had been finished; and in less than 30 seconds the resolution was passed by unanimous consent, without debate and without most Representatives even having heard of it. The resolution, H Res 813, was so one-sided it is not surprising they didn’t want anyone to have the chance to read and vote on it. Surely at least a handful of my colleagues would have objected to language like, “The House of Representatives expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders…”

    US foreign policy being so one-sided actually results in more loss of life and of security on both sides. Surely Israelis do not enjoy the threat of missiles from Gaza nor do the Palestinians enjoy their Israel-imposed inhuman conditions in Gaza. But as long asIsrael can count on its destructive policies being underwritten by the US taxpayer it can continue to engage in reckless behavior. And as long as the Palestinians feel the one-sided US presence lined up against them they will continue to resort to more and more deadly and desperate measures.

    Continuing to rain down missiles on so many increasingly resentful nations, the US is undermining rather than furthering its security. We are on a collision course with much of the rest of the world if we do not right our foreign policy. Ending interventionism in the Middle East and replacing it with friendship and even-handedness would be a welcome first step.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    calling Stevie Wonder a dick? are you just trying to be provocative now?

    uhhh ... if you believe the stuff byrnzie does - pretty sure you wouldn't be a fan of stevie wonder ...
  • polaris_x wrote:
    calling Stevie Wonder a dick? are you just trying to be provocative now?

    uhhh ... if you believe the stuff byrnzie does - pretty sure you wouldn't be a fan of stevie wonder ...


    I'm not sure what this means.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    calling Stevie Wonder a dick? are you just trying to be provocative now?

    Why is it provocative calling him a dick? Or are you suggesting his blindness gives him immunity from criticism?

    "The annual FIDF Western Region Gala has become a tradition and a must-attend event for the Los Angeles Jewish community. The event connects the warm community to the IDF's soldiers, and this is our opportunity to thank the soldiers who defend the State."

    They're not defending the state of Israel. They're defending and perpetuating an illegal occupation, and committing crimes against humanity. Stevie Wonder supports these people, so as far as I'm concerned, this makes him a fucking dick.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Why? Because he doesn't support what you do?

    I support an end to the illegal occupation and Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. What do you support?
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