I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (
question..if usa was where israel is right now..i mean usa be a middle east country ,would u think will act as Israel?more calm,more diplomatic,more aggressive?than Israel?
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
One Hamas official had said a truce might start at 9 p.m. But after that moment passed, a senior figure in the movement, Ezzat al-Rishq, told Reuters in Cairo: "The truce is now held up because we are waiting for the Israeli side to respond.
"We ... must wait until tomorrow."
Israeli officials continued to say that discussions were still continuing.
Gaza medical officials say 134 people have died in Israeli strikes, mostly civilians, including 34 children. In all, five Israelis have died, including three civilians killed last week.
Israel needs to bomb maybe a 100 or so more sites and kill a few more palestinians before it decides to cease-fire.
Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
thats true...
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (
question..if usa was where israel is right now..i mean usa be a middle east country ,would u think will act as Israel?more calm,more diplomatic,more aggressive?than Israel?
Honestly? I think MORE aggresive.
Israel is actually being very restrained. I've said it once, I'll say it again - Israel could decimate the entire Middle East if it wanted to (And the US would let them). Their's is a defensive force. The US when put in a corner (or before) would come at ALL guns blazing. Not saying either is right or wrong. Just answering your question with my opinion.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
thats true...
It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?
Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.
The analogy is ridiculous.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
One Hamas official had said a truce might start at 9 p.m. But after that moment passed, a senior figure in the movement, Ezzat al-Rishq, told Reuters in Cairo: "The truce is now held up because we are waiting for the Israeli side to respond.
"We ... must wait until tomorrow."
Israeli officials continued to say that discussions were still continuing.
Ah. Propaganda at it's finest. Glad someone eats this up. It's why groups like Hamas still serve it up hot.
We have no idea what's been discussed. So, to assume Hamas has had any credible discussions is beyond silly. They may have said - you stop bombing, but we promise nothing. Then tell you - see? We tried!!!! They won't budge!!
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
thats true...
It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?
Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.
The analogy is ridiculous.
man..they are desperate..i would if i lost everyone and everything..we are lucky we grow up in peace inside our country..so we dont think this way..you cant turn that way ,if u dont grow up like this way..
+their religion thing,that make them believes and be fanatic
we are talkinmg about them..not how we will act..is how they understand things
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
man..they are desperate..i would if i lost everyone and everything..we are lucky we grow up in peace inside our country..so we dont think this way..you cant turn that way ,if u dont grow up like this way..
+their religion thing,that make them believes and be fanatic
Agreed. That's the point. I'm not necessarily saying there are not forces that have led them to that. But, the very fact that that is the enemy you are facing forces different results.
We can have the nature vs. nurture discussion on another thread. But, the fact remains, for whatever reason, the value of life is different. That requires a very different kind of response.
And I "know you" (which is to say I think I do) so I know you don't mean this, but you are coming very close to justifying the actions of terrorist organizations like Al Qaida and Hamas.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
thats true...
It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?
Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.
The analogy is ridiculous.
It's not at all ridiculous or silly in any way which is why it happens. However i am glad you don't think your self capable of such an act. Maybe that's why you cant wrap your head around it.
Clinton arrives in J'lem as Gaza truce is postponed
By TOVAH LAZAROFF, KHALED ABU TOAMEH
LAST UPDATED: 11/20/2012 23:08
Following reports of an imminent cease-fire, Hamas official says Egyptian efforts to broker a truce held up because the Israeli government has yet to respond to proposals; CNN: Egypt has no plans to announce truce yet.
Clinton arrives in J'lem as Gaza truce is postponed
By TOVAH LAZAROFF, KHALED ABU TOAMEH
LAST UPDATED: 11/20/2012 23:08
Following reports of an imminent cease-fire, Hamas official says Egyptian efforts to broker a truce held up because the Israeli government has yet to respond to proposals; CNN: Egypt has no plans to announce truce yet.
Do you have information on the proposals? I haven't seen that anywhere. I'm curious as to what they are. You seem to be pretty on top of this.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I'm not against self-defense... so okay, other than your own life or the life of someone who love, there is nothing worth killing or dying for...
But I don't think the self-defense argument justifies firing rockets at people you don't know.
I also don't think it's true that Hamas doesn't value life. You can say they don't value Israeli lives, but in turn Israel doesn't value their lives. I don't see how one side is more moral than the other. If Palestine took a non-violent approach, I think they would have the sympathy of the whole world and get a different result. But Islam does not give them this advice.
When will nations cease to see themselves as morally superior to other nations and use that as an excuse to indiscriminately kill citizens of other nations?
Clinton arrives in J'lem as Gaza truce is postponed
By TOVAH LAZAROFF, KHALED ABU TOAMEH
LAST UPDATED: 11/20/2012 23:08
Following reports of an imminent cease-fire, Hamas official says Egyptian efforts to broker a truce held up because the Israeli government has yet to respond to proposals; CNN: Egypt has no plans to announce truce yet.
Do you have information on the proposals? I haven't seen that anywhere. I'm curious as to what they are. You seem to be pretty on top of this.
It's not at all ridiculous or silly in any way which is why it happens. However i am glad you don't think your self capable of such an act. Maybe that's why you cant wrap your head around it.
None of us can (even those that profer they do). However, they are not the first people to perceive themselves as oppressed.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Clinton arrives in J'lem as Gaza truce is postponed
By TOVAH LAZAROFF, KHALED ABU TOAMEH
LAST UPDATED: 11/20/2012 23:08
Following reports of an imminent cease-fire, Hamas official says Egyptian efforts to broker a truce held up because the Israeli government has yet to respond to proposals; CNN: Egypt has no plans to announce truce yet.
Do you have information on the proposals? I haven't seen that anywhere. I'm curious as to what they are. You seem to be pretty on top of this.
Proposal:
USA is Israel's bitch-boy
Accepted!
?
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Israeli elections are coming up in January so it is Palestinian hunting season again. Israeli cynics call it a time “for mowing the grass.”
Out comes the well-worn playbook by Israel’s militaristic government that has worked to silence Israeli politicians and citizens who want a two-state solution. This is an opportunity to use and test advanced weaponry from the U.S., compliments of U.S. taxpayers, and squelch ongoing peace efforts, small and large, by Palestinians, Israelis and international peace advocates.
The playbook’s first chapter is provocation to upset a tense but workable truce with Hamas, the elected government of Gaza. Hamas was encouraged at its creation years ago by both Israeli and U.S. backers to counter the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Bit of a blowback there.
Israeli government leaders are expert provocateurs when they wish to seize land, water or prisoners and upset any movement toward a peace that would create a viable Palestinian state back to the 1967 borders, which includes East Jerusalem. When Israel came into being in 1948, it soon broke a UN truce and doubled its territory by taking the large area known as the Negev desert ,whose refugees ended up in the Gaza Strip. Now 1.6 million encircled and impoverished humans, blockaded and under siege by Israel, try to survive in an open-air prison little more than twice the size of the District of Columbia.
Israel’s strategy of breaking cease-fires and truces over the years has been documented by Princeton University history professor emeritus, Arno J. Mayer, in his scholarly book Plowshares into Swords: From Zionism to Israel (Verso, 2008).
In late 2008, Israel broke a months-long truce with Hamas with an attack that took half a dozen lives. Modern Israeli missiles and crude Hamas rockets started flying to and fro. Then Israel invaded the Gaza strip with soldiers to add to its previous incursions – 24/7 electronic and satellite surveillance, omnipresent spies, flyovers, and data mining (down to specific details on each extended family and neighborhood). With their avowed pinpoint bombing, the Israelis destroyed homes, schools, clinics, police stations, clusters of people at bus stops, farms, UN facilities and even hit the American International School – all with the blessing of President-elect Barack Obama.
Observers marvel at the precise knowledge by Israel of who was in what car traveling where in Gaza, before being vaporized. Yet somehow, the second-most modern military in the world could not detect and stop those garages assembling the rockets or the sites firing the crude missiles, which were the rationale for the Israeli invasion.
When the Gaza invasion-massacre ended, there were more than 1400 Palestinian fatalities, including around 300 children, and many thousands of injuries, a population surrounded by destruction and deprived by this illegal blockade-siege of medicines, food, water, electricity and the other necessities of life.
One large extended family in several adjoining homes was ordered by Israeli soldiers to congregate in the largest of the homes. Then the Israelis blew it up. This Samouni family lost about 30 of its members, or more than double the entire fatality toll in Israel, including those soldiers lost from friendly fire.
The current hostilities started in two stages. The first was a back-and-forth that saw an emerging truce broken decisively on November 14 when Israel pridefully blew up a car containing Hamas military chief, Ahmad al-Jabari who actually was leading the negotiations via Egypt with Israel for a longer-range truce.
Back to Israel’s playbook, chapter two can be called the instant, mandatory resolutions by the puppet show in Congress and the automatic one-sided mantra by the White House. “Israel has a right to defend itself,” said President Obama, from the occupied, besieged, defenseless Palestinians, whose lands, water, homes, businesses and freedom of movement are being taken relentlessly by the raiding Israeli government that is not content with possessing 78 percent of traditional Palestine.
More than 1500 Israeli reserve combat officers and soldiers signed a declaration refusing, in their words, “to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.”
The founder of Israel, David ben Gurion, candidly declared it “their [Palestine’s] land and we took it.”So Palestinians do not have a right to try to defend themselves against their cruel, powerful occupiers. Israel is violating several UN resolutions along with international law, according to many experts including Richard Falk, the United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories. But the U.S. gives Israel its unwavering UN veto cover.Finally, chapter three of the playbook is to make sure that the Israeli government advocates dominate the U.S. media – the talk shows, the news slants, and the opinion columnists. This is becoming less easy in an internet age. Which might explain that, along with homes, water wells, rescue teams, an ambulance, and other civilian installations, the Israeli air force already has bombed the office building housing Palestinian television studios and hosting media from the western world, including Fox TV. That is one indelicate way to tell these western journalists to get out of Gaza so that the truth about the immense civilian suffering and war crimes can no longer be told by them.
Still, the heroic Israeli progressives and peace advocates would not be silenced, in spite of some Hamas rockets nearing Tel Aviv. A few hundred of them demonstrated in this city, charging the Netanyahu government with provoking the fighting in Gaza to divert attention from conditions of social and economic injustices and civil liberty suppression in their country.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be resolved peacefully, without violence. During quieter times, more than half the Israelis supported a two-state solution. A few years ago, 61 percent of Israelis, polled by a prominent university there, favored negotiations with Hamas. A majority of Jewish-Americans, though unorganized, favor a two-state solution.
In 2002, the Arab League unanimously (22 countries) presented with great fanfare an across-the-board peace treaty with the stipulation that Israel would adhere to UN Resolutions and allow a viable Palestinian state. Again and again, sometimes in full-page ads in U.S. newspapers, this offer was repeated only to receive scoffing and abrupt dismissal by the Israeli government. So, predictably, Washington did nothing.
So what is the alternative? A one-state solution with both Palestinians and Israelis having equal rights? Noura Erakat, who teaches at Georgetown University, framed the dilemma back in August when she quoted former prime minister and current Defense Minister Ehud Barak, saying, after leaving his former post, “If, and as long as between the Jordan [River] and the [Mediterranean] Sea there is only one political entity, named Israel, it will end up being either non-Jewish or nondemocratic…. If the Palestinians vote in elections it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state.” His rival, former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the same thing.
Awareness of this pathway is leading some extremist Israeli politicians who call Palestinians “vermin” and “rats” to think about the day when they can, with suitable provocations, drive the Palestinians into the desert.
Ralph Nader
man..they are desperate..i would if i lost everyone and everything..we are lucky we grow up in peace inside our country..so we dont think this way..you cant turn that way ,if u dont grow up like this way..
+their religion thing,that make them believes and be fanatic
Agreed. That's the point. I'm not necessarily saying there are not forces that have led them to that. But, the very fact that that is the enemy you are facing forces different results.
We can have the nature vs. nurture discussion on another thread. But, the fact remains, for whatever reason, the value of life is different. That requires a very different kind of response.
And I "know you" (which is to say I think I do) so I know you don't mean this, but you are coming very close to justifying the actions of terrorist organizations like Al Qaida and Hamas.
thats why i commnt "thats true" meaning thats the way people think there..not me...
get a bomb..boom... kill yourself and as many of the enemies you can get..revenge matter..God is pleased
NO WAY...ill have the same way of thinking...
but they dont see it as terrorism..they dont see it as bad..its different culture,religion..
anmd from the other hand,lets say you are israelian,with west culture ...
want to live your life in peace there,..
when a rocket pass over your head every day..in the end you will say ..bomb them back..kill them..all..
you cant think logic...
we are far away and isnt easy to understand how the 2 sides feel..
not me from my sofa in greece,not you at your desk at usa
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I'm not against self-defense... so okay, other than your own life or the life of someone who love, there is nothing worth killing or dying for...
But I don't think the self-defense argument justifies firing rockets at people you don't know.
I also don't think it's true that Hamas doesn't value life. You can say they don't value Israeli lives, but in turn Israel doesn't value their lives. I don't see how one side is more moral than the other. If Palestine took a non-violent approach, I think they would have the sympathy of the whole world and get a different result. But Islam does not give them this advice.
When will nations cease to see themselves as morally superior to other nations and use that as an excuse to indiscriminately kill citizens of other nations?
Hamas has had operatives (if you want to call them that) strap bombs to themselves and go into public buses in Israel to blow up civilians during "peace" (And I use that word EXTREMELY loosely for this part of the world) time. They don't value their OWN lives. It's one thing to be willing to die for a cause. It's quite another to be willing to "give up" your life. A not so subtle difference.
To your last point - if the Middle East would (truly) leave Israel alone, I guarantee all fighting would end. As someone else pointed out - if Hamas and their supporters dropped their weapons, Israel would not attack. If Israel dropped it's weapons, it would cease to exist. Therefore, Israel does respect Palestinian lives more than the opposite.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Why do folks think that others who may fight don't believe this, too (not saying you, but I see this all the time)?
It's like the old saying from the cold war - we are truly safe b/c so and so love their children, too (Russia at that time). The meaning went beyond the children. It really was the fact that Russians loved living, so the mutually assured destruction was kept at bay b/c they realized their action would have a RE-action.
I'm not so sure terrorist organizations like Hamas have that same ethos. When you see suicide bombers, etc., it calls into question their ability to differentiate life and death.
I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (Which is not to argue or say that they don't kill people. But, the fact that they wouldn't strap a bomb to themselves to attack others, make a point, "defend themselves or whatever you'd like to call it). Can the same be said for Hamas and other similarly situated terrorist organizations?
When faced with an enemy that doesn't honor life like most ethical humans do, you are forced to fight and kill and die if necessary. It doesn't make you ethically bankrupt. It proves you understand the REALITY you deal with.
Just because someone fights a war does not mean the like it or want it. There is a clear deliniation on what each sides pathos is here regardless of how some would like to color it.
Your neighbor comes at your child with a gun, are you just going to stand there b/c you don't like guns? Is it possible you might wind up killing your neighbor if it is the only way to save your child even though killing is against every fiber of your moral being?
I know you said you weren't necessarily pointing at me with this statement, but I'll answer anyway. I was clapping for the sentiment, not because I believe people a pro-war. Each side is going to think it's fighting for its right, its own freedoms, its people. No one likes war.
Of course I'd protect those I love in that immediate scenario. But if Canada was at war, and conscription came back, I'd leave. I don't fight political battles.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
- if Hamas and their supporters dropped their weapons, Israel would not attack. If Israel dropped it's weapons, it would cease to exist. Therefore, Israel does respect Palestinian lives more than the opposite.
do u think that if both sides drop their guns,this will stop???
no,,cos "other"countries with interest in the area will not let them...
one simple provocation will fuck everything up...
this shit will never ends...
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
American Secular zionist checking in. Solid read inside this forum. Never been on A Moving train.
Hammas leadership in Gaza refusal to recognize the the State of Israel will forever make it impossible for there to be peace in the middle east. Almost as simple as that.
If Israel dropped it's weapons, it would cease to exist. Therefore, Israel does respect Palestinian lives more than the opposite.
please explain why Israel would cease to exist (sorry, I'm a newb on the subject and I'm learning as I go)
i would like to hear an explanation for this as well. if we are throwing out hyperbole anyone can make statements like that.
It's not hyperbole. It's fact. And has been answered.
But, if you'd like an explanation, you need none further than numerous quotes by Hamas, Iran and others regarding their desire to wipe Israel AND its people off the face of the Earth.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
- if Hamas and their supporters dropped their weapons, Israel would not attack. If Israel dropped it's weapons, it would cease to exist. Therefore, Israel does respect Palestinian lives more than the opposite.
do u think that if both sides drop their guns,this will stop???
no,,cos "other"countries with interest in the area will not let them...
one simple provocation will fuck everything up...
this shit will never ends...
Right. I said Hamas AND their supporters. Those drop their weapons, it is over.
Israel drops its weapons (without the above TRULY happening) and it is gone. FACT.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Why do folks think that others who may fight don't believe this, too (not saying you, but I see this all the time)?
It's like the old saying from the cold war - we are truly safe b/c so and so love their children, too (Russia at that time). The meaning went beyond the children. It really was the fact that Russians loved living, so the mutually assured destruction was kept at bay b/c they realized their action would have a RE-action.
I'm not so sure terrorist organizations like Hamas have that same ethos. When you see suicide bombers, etc., it calls into question their ability to differentiate life and death.
I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (Which is not to argue or say that they don't kill people. But, the fact that they wouldn't strap a bomb to themselves to attack others, make a point, "defend themselves or whatever you'd like to call it). Can the same be said for Hamas and other similarly situated terrorist organizations?
When faced with an enemy that doesn't honor life like most ethical humans do, you are forced to fight and kill and die if necessary. It doesn't make you ethically bankrupt. It proves you understand the REALITY you deal with.
Just because someone fights a war does not mean the like it or want it. There is a clear deliniation on what each sides pathos is here regardless of how some would like to color it.
Your neighbor comes at your child with a gun, are you just going to stand there b/c you don't like guns? Is it possible you might wind up killing your neighbor if it is the only way to save your child even though killing is against every fiber of your moral being?
I know you said you weren't necessarily pointing at me with this statement, but I'll answer anyway. I was clapping for the sentiment, not because I believe people a pro-war. Each side is going to think it's fighting for its right, its own freedoms, its people. No one likes war.
Of course I'd protect those I love in that immediate scenario. But if Canada was at war, and conscription came back, I'd leave. I don't fight political battles.
Disagree. Israel is fighting to protect itself. If it was fighting a war, Gaza would be gone.
If someone started lobbing bombs at Canada and not recognizing it's existence, you would call that a political war?
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Comments
question..if usa was where israel is right now..i mean usa be a middle east country ,would u think will act as Israel?more calm,more diplomatic,more aggressive?than Israel?
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"We ... must wait until tomorrow."
Israeli officials continued to say that discussions were still continuing.
Gaza medical officials say 134 people have died in Israeli strikes, mostly civilians, including 34 children. In all, five Israelis have died, including three civilians killed last week.
Israel needs to bomb maybe a 100 or so more sites and kill a few more palestinians before it decides to cease-fire.
SCORE - 2 Minute Warning
134-5
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Honestly? I think MORE aggresive.
Israel is actually being very restrained. I've said it once, I'll say it again - Israel could decimate the entire Middle East if it wanted to (And the US would let them). Their's is a defensive force. The US when put in a corner (or before) would come at ALL guns blazing. Not saying either is right or wrong. Just answering your question with my opinion.
It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?
Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.
The analogy is ridiculous.
Ah. Propaganda at it's finest. Glad someone eats this up. It's why groups like Hamas still serve it up hot.
We have no idea what's been discussed. So, to assume Hamas has had any credible discussions is beyond silly. They may have said - you stop bombing, but we promise nothing. Then tell you - see? We tried!!!! They won't budge!!
+their religion thing,that make them believes and be fanatic
we are talkinmg about them..not how we will act..is how they understand things
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Agreed. That's the point. I'm not necessarily saying there are not forces that have led them to that. But, the very fact that that is the enemy you are facing forces different results.
We can have the nature vs. nurture discussion on another thread. But, the fact remains, for whatever reason, the value of life is different. That requires a very different kind of response.
And I "know you" (which is to say I think I do) so I know you don't mean this, but you are coming very close to justifying the actions of terrorist organizations like Al Qaida and Hamas.
It's not at all ridiculous or silly in any way which is why it happens. However i am glad you don't think your self capable of such an act. Maybe that's why you cant wrap your head around it.
Clinton arrives in J'lem as Gaza truce is postponed
By TOVAH LAZAROFF, KHALED ABU TOAMEH
LAST UPDATED: 11/20/2012 23:08
Following reports of an imminent cease-fire, Hamas official says Egyptian efforts to broker a truce held up because the Israeli government has yet to respond to proposals; CNN: Egypt has no plans to announce truce yet.
Do you have information on the proposals? I haven't seen that anywhere. I'm curious as to what they are. You seem to be pretty on top of this.
But I don't think the self-defense argument justifies firing rockets at people you don't know.
I also don't think it's true that Hamas doesn't value life. You can say they don't value Israeli lives, but in turn Israel doesn't value their lives. I don't see how one side is more moral than the other. If Palestine took a non-violent approach, I think they would have the sympathy of the whole world and get a different result. But Islam does not give them this advice.
When will nations cease to see themselves as morally superior to other nations and use that as an excuse to indiscriminately kill citizens of other nations?
Proposal:
USA is Israel's bitch-boy
Accepted!
None of us can (even those that profer they do). However, they are not the first people to perceive themselves as oppressed.
?
Israeli elections are coming up in January so it is Palestinian hunting season again. Israeli cynics call it a time “for mowing the grass.”
Out comes the well-worn playbook by Israel’s militaristic government that has worked to silence Israeli politicians and citizens who want a two-state solution. This is an opportunity to use and test advanced weaponry from the U.S., compliments of U.S. taxpayers, and squelch ongoing peace efforts, small and large, by Palestinians, Israelis and international peace advocates.
The playbook’s first chapter is provocation to upset a tense but workable truce with Hamas, the elected government of Gaza. Hamas was encouraged at its creation years ago by both Israeli and U.S. backers to counter the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Bit of a blowback there.
Israeli government leaders are expert provocateurs when they wish to seize land, water or prisoners and upset any movement toward a peace that would create a viable Palestinian state back to the 1967 borders, which includes East Jerusalem. When Israel came into being in 1948, it soon broke a UN truce and doubled its territory by taking the large area known as the Negev desert ,whose refugees ended up in the Gaza Strip. Now 1.6 million encircled and impoverished humans, blockaded and under siege by Israel, try to survive in an open-air prison little more than twice the size of the District of Columbia.
Israel’s strategy of breaking cease-fires and truces over the years has been documented by Princeton University history professor emeritus, Arno J. Mayer, in his scholarly book Plowshares into Swords: From Zionism to Israel (Verso, 2008).
In late 2008, Israel broke a months-long truce with Hamas with an attack that took half a dozen lives. Modern Israeli missiles and crude Hamas rockets started flying to and fro. Then Israel invaded the Gaza strip with soldiers to add to its previous incursions – 24/7 electronic and satellite surveillance, omnipresent spies, flyovers, and data mining (down to specific details on each extended family and neighborhood). With their avowed pinpoint bombing, the Israelis destroyed homes, schools, clinics, police stations, clusters of people at bus stops, farms, UN facilities and even hit the American International School – all with the blessing of President-elect Barack Obama.
Observers marvel at the precise knowledge by Israel of who was in what car traveling where in Gaza, before being vaporized. Yet somehow, the second-most modern military in the world could not detect and stop those garages assembling the rockets or the sites firing the crude missiles, which were the rationale for the Israeli invasion.
When the Gaza invasion-massacre ended, there were more than 1400 Palestinian fatalities, including around 300 children, and many thousands of injuries, a population surrounded by destruction and deprived by this illegal blockade-siege of medicines, food, water, electricity and the other necessities of life.
One large extended family in several adjoining homes was ordered by Israeli soldiers to congregate in the largest of the homes. Then the Israelis blew it up. This Samouni family lost about 30 of its members, or more than double the entire fatality toll in Israel, including those soldiers lost from friendly fire.
The current hostilities started in two stages. The first was a back-and-forth that saw an emerging truce broken decisively on November 14 when Israel pridefully blew up a car containing Hamas military chief, Ahmad al-Jabari who actually was leading the negotiations via Egypt with Israel for a longer-range truce.
Back to Israel’s playbook, chapter two can be called the instant, mandatory resolutions by the puppet show in Congress and the automatic one-sided mantra by the White House. “Israel has a right to defend itself,” said President Obama, from the occupied, besieged, defenseless Palestinians, whose lands, water, homes, businesses and freedom of movement are being taken relentlessly by the raiding Israeli government that is not content with possessing 78 percent of traditional Palestine.
More than 1500 Israeli reserve combat officers and soldiers signed a declaration refusing, in their words, “to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.”
The founder of Israel, David ben Gurion, candidly declared it “their [Palestine’s] land and we took it.”So Palestinians do not have a right to try to defend themselves against their cruel, powerful occupiers. Israel is violating several UN resolutions along with international law, according to many experts including Richard Falk, the United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories. But the U.S. gives Israel its unwavering UN veto cover.Finally, chapter three of the playbook is to make sure that the Israeli government advocates dominate the U.S. media – the talk shows, the news slants, and the opinion columnists. This is becoming less easy in an internet age. Which might explain that, along with homes, water wells, rescue teams, an ambulance, and other civilian installations, the Israeli air force already has bombed the office building housing Palestinian television studios and hosting media from the western world, including Fox TV. That is one indelicate way to tell these western journalists to get out of Gaza so that the truth about the immense civilian suffering and war crimes can no longer be told by them.
Still, the heroic Israeli progressives and peace advocates would not be silenced, in spite of some Hamas rockets nearing Tel Aviv. A few hundred of them demonstrated in this city, charging the Netanyahu government with provoking the fighting in Gaza to divert attention from conditions of social and economic injustices and civil liberty suppression in their country.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be resolved peacefully, without violence. During quieter times, more than half the Israelis supported a two-state solution. A few years ago, 61 percent of Israelis, polled by a prominent university there, favored negotiations with Hamas. A majority of Jewish-Americans, though unorganized, favor a two-state solution.
In 2002, the Arab League unanimously (22 countries) presented with great fanfare an across-the-board peace treaty with the stipulation that Israel would adhere to UN Resolutions and allow a viable Palestinian state. Again and again, sometimes in full-page ads in U.S. newspapers, this offer was repeated only to receive scoffing and abrupt dismissal by the Israeli government. So, predictably, Washington did nothing.
So what is the alternative? A one-state solution with both Palestinians and Israelis having equal rights? Noura Erakat, who teaches at Georgetown University, framed the dilemma back in August when she quoted former prime minister and current Defense Minister Ehud Barak, saying, after leaving his former post, “If, and as long as between the Jordan [River] and the [Mediterranean] Sea there is only one political entity, named Israel, it will end up being either non-Jewish or nondemocratic…. If the Palestinians vote in elections it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state.” His rival, former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the same thing.
Awareness of this pathway is leading some extremist Israeli politicians who call Palestinians “vermin” and “rats” to think about the day when they can, with suitable provocations, drive the Palestinians into the desert.
Ralph Nader
get a bomb..boom... kill yourself and as many of the enemies you can get..revenge matter..God is pleased
NO WAY...ill have the same way of thinking...
but they dont see it as terrorism..they dont see it as bad..its different culture,religion..
anmd from the other hand,lets say you are israelian,with west culture ...
want to live your life in peace there,..
when a rocket pass over your head every day..in the end you will say ..bomb them back..kill them..all..
you cant think logic...
we are far away and isnt easy to understand how the 2 sides feel..
not me from my sofa in greece,not you at your desk at usa
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Hamas has had operatives (if you want to call them that) strap bombs to themselves and go into public buses in Israel to blow up civilians during "peace" (And I use that word EXTREMELY loosely for this part of the world) time. They don't value their OWN lives. It's one thing to be willing to die for a cause. It's quite another to be willing to "give up" your life. A not so subtle difference.
To your last point - if the Middle East would (truly) leave Israel alone, I guarantee all fighting would end. As someone else pointed out - if Hamas and their supporters dropped their weapons, Israel would not attack. If Israel dropped it's weapons, it would cease to exist. Therefore, Israel does respect Palestinian lives more than the opposite.
I know you said you weren't necessarily pointing at me with this statement, but I'll answer anyway. I was clapping for the sentiment, not because I believe people a pro-war. Each side is going to think it's fighting for its right, its own freedoms, its people. No one likes war.
Of course I'd protect those I love in that immediate scenario. But if Canada was at war, and conscription came back, I'd leave. I don't fight political battles.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
no,,cos "other"countries with interest in the area will not let them...
one simple provocation will fuck everything up...
this shit will never ends...
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
please explain why Israel would cease to exist (sorry, I'm a newb on the subject and I'm learning as I go)
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
It has a few neighbors who don't like them very much.
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
:wave: :wave: there he is!
Hammas leadership in Gaza refusal to recognize the the State of Israel will forever make it impossible for there to be peace in the middle east. Almost as simple as that.
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
It's not hyperbole. It's fact. And has been answered.
But, if you'd like an explanation, you need none further than numerous quotes by Hamas, Iran and others regarding their desire to wipe Israel AND its people off the face of the Earth.
Right. I said Hamas AND their supporters. Those drop their weapons, it is over.
Israel drops its weapons (without the above TRULY happening) and it is gone. FACT.
Disagree. Israel is fighting to protect itself. If it was fighting a war, Gaza would be gone.
If someone started lobbing bombs at Canada and not recognizing it's existence, you would call that a political war?