Yet again, your argument is far too simplistic (which is often a problem with arguments by analogy). That said, to use the terms of your analogy, the man with a boot on his throat can certainly use all reasonable means to protect himself against the person attacking him. He can't, however, blindly attack everyone who just so happens to be associated with his attacker. If the man finds a gun lying next to him and in fear for his life shoots the man whose boot is crushing his throat, that's one thing. It's quite another thing to grab the gun and shoot the man's daughter while she's playing in the yard next door. Morality functions through the identification of meaningful distinctions. If you refuse to draw those distinctions then you are affectively no longer really engaging in a moral discourse.
And if attacking his daughter was a sure-fire way to cause the man who was strangulating him with his boot heel to back off, and that the attacker knew that by crushing the mans throat with his boot he was placing his own family in danger of retaliation, then why would it be immoral for the victim to attack his daughter? Surely the immorality lies in the attacker not simply backing off and ceasing his violence?
Your last response shows an absolute lack of fundamental moral understanding. I would hope that the other people reading this thread can recognize that as easily as I can.
And I would hope that people reading this thread can see the difference between the violence of someone under a brutal military occupation and all of the oppression, beatings, house demolitions, random incursions, missile attacks, white phosphorous attacks, checkpoints, and general humiliation that goes with it, and the violence of the oppressor...despite your efforts to portray them as being on an equal footing.
Absolutely.
I think this analogy says a lot about both positions.
I had the same first thought as you, B...which is interesting to me, because it flies in the face of similar 'two-wrongs' arguments I've used against the death penalty....So the analogy portrays how desperation and loyalties can make a person's moral judgement secondary to survival.
On the flip side, I think calling empathy toward that basic human instinct a 'lack of fundamental moral understanding' is a back-handed claim of moral superiority, and inference that the oppressed should accept their fate....
It also paints a pretty accurate portrait of an apologist....yes, on both sides of the analogy.
But as you pointed out (B), the way to prevent the whole scenario is to remove the boot from the throat....and yes, after lifting a couple million boots, you can expect a few people to get up swinging....reasoned responses to those people can prevent the whole scenario from repeating.
What we are seeing now is not a reasoned response. It's the attacker crushing the throat AND the victim's daughter's throat as well.
Well isn't this a fucking morbid thought. Sickens me to think that there are people living this analogy.
When people can tell their children that there is more to life than hate and always being right, there just might be a chance for these two sides to get their acts together. They must be oblivious to the way most of their religious holidays fall on the same days, and revolve around the same cycles. Only to an outsider can this be so blatant.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
if israeilians was not jewish,the things will be different...and hate less
if palestinians has a big power behind to support them..lets say Russia,things will be different..
when you grow up with hate and loose favo people,its easier to do things that we here think is unbeliavable
this shit there will ever ends cosa "others" dont want peace..\
and by others,i mean both sides supporters....
Dimi-
If all Israeli's were Christian (and there are a few out there), we would have the same problem. The Christians are no less infidels than Jews. Hamas will not stop until they have "won".
Palestinians have plenty of support from the Arab world and had plenty of support from Russia too. Please don't kid yourself.
And if attacking his daughter was a sure-fire way to cause the man who was strangulating him with his boot heel to back off, and that the attacker knew that by crushing the mans throat with his boot he was placing his own family in danger of retaliation, then why would it be immoral for the victim to attack his daughter? Surely the immorality lies in the attacker not simply backing off and ceasing his violence?
yikes. all's fair in love and war, eh, Byrnzie?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
if israeilians was not jewish,the things will be different...and hate less
if palestinians has a big power behind to support them..lets say Russia,things will be different..
when you grow up with hate and loose favo people,its easier to do things that we here think is unbeliavable
this shit there will ever ends cosa "others" dont want peace..\
and by others,i mean both sides supporters....
Dimi-
If all Israeli's were Christian (and there are a few out there), we would have the same problem. The Christians are no less infidels than Jews. Hamas will not stop until they have "won".
Palestinians have plenty of support from the Arab world and had plenty of support from Russia too. Please don't kid yourself.
i mean OPEN help....like the one USA gives to Israel...and isnt the same with Christians..
cos let me tell u..Jewish are more traditional and believe more stronge than Christians these days..
Israel is there ..was put there..and one obf ther reasons is that they are stroge belivers in their religion...trust me on this..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
pretty good insights as to the differences between cast lead and pillar, talks about hezbollah not engaging, a weakened syria kinda leaving palestine isolated without much help.
what comes to mind is how interesting it is that weapons (especially nuclear) backs off the bullies and makes them rethink their game plan.
When people can tell their children that there is more to life than hate and always being right, there just might be a chance for these two sides to get their acts together. They must be oblivious to the way most of their religious holidays fall on the same days, and revolve around the same cycles. Only to an outsider can this be so blatant.
you are right
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
this is what is meant by US being Israels little Bitchboy....Kucinich refuses to grab his ankles
Whereas Hamas was founded with the stated goal of destroying the State of Israel;
Whereas Hamas has been designated by the Secretary of State as a Foreign Terrorist Organization;
Whereas Hamas refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;
Whereas Hamas has launched thousands of rockets and missiles since Israel dismantled settlements and withdrew from Gaza in 2005;
Whereas terrorists in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip have fired approximately 900 rockets and missile shells into Israel this year, an increase from roughly 675 attacks in 2011 and 350 in 2010;
Whereas Hamas has increased the range of its rockets, reportedly with support from Iran and others, putting additional large numbers of Israelis in danger of rocket attacks from Gaza;
Whereas, on November 14, 2012, President Barack Obama condemned the rocket fire from Gaza into Israel and reiterated Israel’s right to self-defense; and
Whereas Israel, a fellow democracy, has an inherent right to self defense in the face of terrorist attacks: Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the House of Representatives–
(1) expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders, and recognizes and strongly supports its inherent right to act in self-defense to protect its citizens against acts of terrorism;
(2) reiterates that Hamas must end Gaza-linked terrorist rocket and missile attacks against Israel, recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and agree to accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;
(3) urges the United Nations Security Council to condemn the recent spike in Gaza-linked terrorist missile attacks against Israel, which risk causing civilian casualties in both Israel and Gaza; and
(4) encourages the President to continue to work diplomatically with the international community to prevent Hamas and other Gaza-based terrorist organizations from retaining or rebuilding the capability to launch rockets and missiles against Israel.
Outgoing Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) has objected to a House resolution that declared “vigorous support and unwavering commitment” to Israel.
Kucinich said on Tuesday the non-binding resolution, which supports Israeli airstrikes on Gaza in strong terms, was passed by the House in about a minute and without any advance notice. The resolution was passed on Friday by a voice vote with no debate. Raw Story
It is unusual that legislation addressing a topic of such importance would be brought up without giving members of Congress any prior notice. The bill was introduced at 12:04 pm. The resolution was “agreed without objection” by 12:05 pm.
Could anything be more destructive of peace than the assassination of a principal to ceasefire negotiations?
[quote=
i mean OPEN help....like the one USA gives to Israel...and isnt the same with Christians..
cos let me tell u..Jewish are more traditional and believe more stronge than Christians these days..
Israel is there ..was put there..and one obf ther reasons is that they are stroge belivers in their religion...trust me on this..[/quote]
Dimi:
Israel was put there for its religion. I would agree. However, the 21st century Israeli cannot be identified as your typical Orthodox jew wearing a black hat. Only 25% of Jews in the country actually observe the Sabbath and only a fraction more really have any understanding of the religion.
Jews are proud to be Jewish... But prouder to have one place on Earth that they can call home.
Israel was put there for its religion. I would agree. However, the 21st century Israeli cannot be identified as your typical Orthodox jew wearing a black hat. Only 25% of Jews in the country actually observe the Sabbath and only a fraction more really have any understanding of the religion.
Jews are proud to be Jewish... But prouder to have one place on Earth that they can call home.
i understand your point..sure..they want to have a place called home..the problem is that there was someone else home already..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Soon Israel will give the "wink and nod" to its Bitchboy Nation and Sec Clinton will accept congratulations on brokering the ceasefire truce
it's become abundantly clear that the biggest hope for palestinians will be from jews and israelis ... only they can deliver them peace and justice ... no one else ...
help
i keep reading that "hamas wont recognize israels right to exist" and it seems kinda vague...i cant find what this refers to...anyone? what does this mean? were is this stated
thxs
Wow, what a surprise!And Americans wonder why they're hated around the World? Maybe you should look to your government's foreign policy for the answer to that one.
The Israeli ambassador to Washington, Michael Oren[...] "The United States has given us the full backing to take whatever measures are necessary to defend our citizens from Hamas terror," he said. "Israel has received unequivocal and outstanding support from the United States and all branches of government. From the White House, from Congress, in both parties, completely bipartisan support."
...The Israeli ambassador has been leading a PR drive in Washington to cast Israel as the innocent victim of indiscriminate terror attacks, a claim strongly challenged by Palestinians who accuse Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, of engineering the conflict as a political strategy in the run-up to January's general election.
...The Palestinian delegation to the US accused Washington of taking Israel's side.
"The United States response is at best biased and weak because it completely ignored the fact that Israel started the escalation. The US has a moral obligation to ask Israel not to deploy its US-made weapons to kill and injure civilians. The US is also expected to tell Israel that there is no military solution to the conflict. The only way to achieve peace is to uproot the cause of its absence: Israel's military occupation of Palestine," it said. "It is shameful that certain countries are justifying the murder of Palestinian civilians. It is time for all to understand that Palestinian lives are as precious as any others in the region and around the world. The political complicity must end and Israel must be held accountable."
How do you not acknowledge that the Palestinians have made many attacks on Israeli citizens for years? When will you be packing up and moving from the place that you're occupying?
But the truce actually doesn't move anything forward (though thankfully stops the fighting for now). Israel agreed to stop assassinating top Hamas officials and to ease the restrictions on crossings.
Why does this not move anything forward? Israel was already in the process of easing the restrictions before this all started, and there are no time tables nor specifics on what this actually means. So, all Hamas accomplished was protecting their own inner circle, nothing for their citizens.
They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate and kill a couple of their top operatives, and all they get out of it is Israel saying they will continue to do what they were already doing. So, Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians and accomplished - nothing!!!! That's what terrorists do.
Props all around.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
But the truce actually doesn't move anything forward (though thankfully stops the fighting for now). Israel agreed to stop assassinating top Hamas officials and to ease the restrictions on crossings.
Why does this not move anything forward? Israel was already in the process of easing the restrictions before this all started, and there are no time tables nor specifics on what this actually means. So, all Hamas accomplished was protecting their own inner circle, nothing for their citizens.
They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate and kill a couple of their top operatives, and all they get out of it is Israel saying they will continue to do what they were already doing. So, Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians and accomplished - nothing!!!! That's what terrorists do.
Props all around.
we have a great moto-expresion for all this in Greece..
"Theatre of the Absurd"
thats exactly happening down there...
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
But the truce actually doesn't move anything forward (though thankfully stops the fighting for now). Israel agreed to stop assassinating top Hamas officials and to ease the restrictions on crossings.
Why does this not move anything forward? Israel was already in the process of easing the restrictions before this all started, and there are no time tables nor specifics on what this actually means. So, all Hamas accomplished was protecting their own inner circle, nothing for their citizens.
They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate and kill a couple of their top operatives, and all they get out of it is Israel saying they will continue to do what they were already doing. So, Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians and accomplished - nothing!!!! That's what terrorists do.
Props all around.
Another round of finger pointing, hmm? ok...
In case you didn't read the article on page one of this thread:
Furthermore, articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
Another round of finger pointing, hmm? ok...
In case you didn't read the article on page one of this thread:
Furthermore, articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
I'm not going to respond to a slanted article. But, if you want to daisy chain individual deaths that led up to this, you are going to have to go back MUCH further than that. Unfortunately, examples given are not isolated nor new. The fact remains that the bombs flown by Hamas on civilian areas of Israel is the DIRECT cause of the most recent escalation.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Im also seeing alot of "Islamist Hamas" in articles....what is Islamist Hamas? Are they different then Hamas?
if im not wrong i think is the name Israel call them..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
does anyone else think this Israel threat to invade the gaza strip is a prelude to their invasion of Iran?
No. That would require clear US approval. It's one thing to defend themselves (they did not invade, so that is a misnomer on your part. They have simply responded to fire with fire. If you want to talk about occupation, or whatever, I'll still disagree, but have at it. But, in this case they did not INVADE), against an entity that the US aknowledges as a terrorist organization. It's quite another to invade another independent country without direct provocation.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Another round of finger pointing, hmm? ok...
In case you didn't read the article on page one of this thread:
Furthermore, articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
I'm not going to respond to a slanted article. But, if you want to daisy chain individual deaths that led up to this, you are going to have to go back MUCH further than that. Unfortunately, examples given are not isolated nor new. The fact remains that the bombs flown by Hamas on civilian areas of Israel is the DIRECT cause of the most recent escalation.
Sounds like you responded to it....by denying that it's true....but not substantiating your claim.
Which bombs flown by Hamas, on which day, were the direct cause of the most recent escalations?
Another round of finger pointing, hmm? ok...
In case you didn't read the article on page one of this thread:
Furthermore, articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
I'm not going to respond to a slanted article. But, if you want to daisy chain individual deaths that led up to this, you are going to have to go back MUCH further than that. Unfortunately, examples given are not isolated nor new. The fact remains that the bombs flown by Hamas on civilian areas of Israel is the DIRECT cause of the most recent escalation.
Sounds like you responded to it....by denying that it's true....but not substantiating your claim.
Which bombs flown by Hamas, on which day, were the direct cause of the most recent escalations?
This is from the article about the cease from CNN...
"How this conflict reignited
A rocket alarm howled in the Israeli city of Ashkelon shortly after 7:30 a.m. Wednesday, just minutes after Hamas' TV broadcaster al-Aqsa reported its militants' rockets striking there as well as in the towns of Sderot and Ashdod. CNN's Fred Pleitgen in Ashkelon heard two impacts but could not say if the rockets hit anything.
All told, militants had fired 62 rockets from Gaza as of Wednesday afternoon, with 42 landing in Israel, according to the IDF. The Israeli military's Iron Dome defense system intercepted the other 20, the IDF said."
It is enough of the pointing fingers. Peace can be reached. But if Hamas wants to continue to launch rockets in Sderot, Ashkelon, and Ashdod at Israeli citizens (not military), their people will continue to be put in harms way.
Spotlight is on! There can be middle ground reached where a 2 state system can function. We will see!
Another round of finger pointing, hmm? ok...
In case you didn't read the article on page one of this thread:
Furthermore, articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
I'm not going to respond to a slanted article. But, if you want to daisy chain individual deaths that led up to this, you are going to have to go back MUCH further than that. Unfortunately, examples given are not isolated nor new. The fact remains that the bombs flown by Hamas on civilian areas of Israel is the DIRECT cause of the most recent escalation.
Sounds like you responded to it....by denying that it's true....but not substantiating your claim.
Which bombs flown by Hamas, on which day, were the direct cause of the most recent escalations?
Nov 11, 100 rockets sent to civilian areas of Israel. Poor aim and good defense limits the casualties. However, if you want to daisy chain back, Hamas has been bombing Israel pretty much daily for the last 7 years since Israel left the Gaza strip.
EDIT: CoT seems to have found a more precise count of this attack, so I'll admit to exaggerating. 62 not 100. Sorry.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Ok, I'll delete another couple of lines and highlight some stuff to see if you'll actually read it this time:
However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
The November 11 rocket attacks were retaliation for the IDF killing a child at play from a helicopter.
Comments
I think this analogy says a lot about both positions.
I had the same first thought as you, B...which is interesting to me, because it flies in the face of similar 'two-wrongs' arguments I've used against the death penalty....So the analogy portrays how desperation and loyalties can make a person's moral judgement secondary to survival.
On the flip side, I think calling empathy toward that basic human instinct a 'lack of fundamental moral understanding' is a back-handed claim of moral superiority, and inference that the oppressed should accept their fate....
It also paints a pretty accurate portrait of an apologist....yes, on both sides of the analogy.
But as you pointed out (B), the way to prevent the whole scenario is to remove the boot from the throat....and yes, after lifting a couple million boots, you can expect a few people to get up swinging....reasoned responses to those people can prevent the whole scenario from repeating.
What we are seeing now is not a reasoned response. It's the attacker crushing the throat AND the victim's daughter's throat as well.
Well isn't this a fucking morbid thought. Sickens me to think that there are people living this analogy.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
Dimi-
If all Israeli's were Christian (and there are a few out there), we would have the same problem. The Christians are no less infidels than Jews. Hamas will not stop until they have "won".
Palestinians have plenty of support from the Arab world and had plenty of support from Russia too. Please don't kid yourself.
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
Solid Governance...
It's interesting... why wouldn't Hamas hold them captive? The going rate is 1 Israeli soldier for a thousand "political prisoners"
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
yikes. all's fair in love and war, eh, Byrnzie?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
cos let me tell u..Jewish are more traditional and believe more stronge than Christians these days..
Israel is there ..was put there..and one obf ther reasons is that they are stroge belivers in their religion...trust me on this..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
pretty good insights as to the differences between cast lead and pillar, talks about hezbollah not engaging, a weakened syria kinda leaving palestine isolated without much help.
what comes to mind is how interesting it is that weapons (especially nuclear) backs off the bullies and makes them rethink their game plan.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Whereas Hamas was founded with the stated goal of destroying the State of Israel;
Whereas Hamas has been designated by the Secretary of State as a Foreign Terrorist Organization;
Whereas Hamas refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;
Whereas Hamas has launched thousands of rockets and missiles since Israel dismantled settlements and withdrew from Gaza in 2005;
Whereas terrorists in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip have fired approximately 900 rockets and missile shells into Israel this year, an increase from roughly 675 attacks in 2011 and 350 in 2010;
Whereas Hamas has increased the range of its rockets, reportedly with support from Iran and others, putting additional large numbers of Israelis in danger of rocket attacks from Gaza;
Whereas, on November 14, 2012, President Barack Obama condemned the rocket fire from Gaza into Israel and reiterated Israel’s right to self-defense; and
Whereas Israel, a fellow democracy, has an inherent right to self defense in the face of terrorist attacks: Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the House of Representatives–
(1) expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders, and recognizes and strongly supports its inherent right to act in self-defense to protect its citizens against acts of terrorism;
(2) reiterates that Hamas must end Gaza-linked terrorist rocket and missile attacks against Israel, recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and agree to accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;
(3) urges the United Nations Security Council to condemn the recent spike in Gaza-linked terrorist missile attacks against Israel, which risk causing civilian casualties in both Israel and Gaza; and
(4) encourages the President to continue to work diplomatically with the international community to prevent Hamas and other Gaza-based terrorist organizations from retaining or rebuilding the capability to launch rockets and missiles against Israel.
Outgoing Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) has objected to a House resolution that declared “vigorous support and unwavering commitment” to Israel.
Kucinich said on Tuesday the non-binding resolution, which supports Israeli airstrikes on Gaza in strong terms, was passed by the House in about a minute and without any advance notice. The resolution was passed on Friday by a voice vote with no debate. Raw Story
It is unusual that legislation addressing a topic of such importance would be brought up without giving members of Congress any prior notice. The bill was introduced at 12:04 pm. The resolution was “agreed without objection” by 12:05 pm.
Could anything be more destructive of peace than the assassination of a principal to ceasefire negotiations?
http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/273727.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... _ref=world
scroll down to the bottom for pictures of what was Made in America
note that one bomb killed more than the 1500 rockets lobbed into israel
And today's bombing on a civilian bus in the streets of Tel Aviv.
"Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri praised the bombing, but stopped short of claiming responsibility."
You praise the bombing of a civilian bus?
i mean OPEN help....like the one USA gives to Israel...and isnt the same with Christians..
cos let me tell u..Jewish are more traditional and believe more stronge than Christians these days..
Israel is there ..was put there..and one obf ther reasons is that they are stroge belivers in their religion...trust me on this..[/quote]
Dimi:
Israel was put there for its religion. I would agree. However, the 21st century Israeli cannot be identified as your typical Orthodox jew wearing a black hat. Only 25% of Jews in the country actually observe the Sabbath and only a fraction more really have any understanding of the religion.
Jews are proud to be Jewish... But prouder to have one place on Earth that they can call home.
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
Israel 141 - Palestinians 7
Soon Israel will give the "wink and nod" to its Bitchboy Nation and Sec Clinton will accept congratulations on brokering the ceasefire truce
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
it's become abundantly clear that the biggest hope for palestinians will be from jews and israelis ... only they can deliver them peace and justice ... no one else ...
i keep reading that "hamas wont recognize israels right to exist" and it seems kinda vague...i cant find what this refers to...anyone? what does this mean? were is this stated
thxs
How do you not acknowledge that the Palestinians have made many attacks on Israeli citizens for years? When will you be packing up and moving from the place that you're occupying?
want to be enlightened"
Obama gets props from Netenyahu!
Hillary gets face time!!
Egypts new regime gets kudos!!
But the truce actually doesn't move anything forward (though thankfully stops the fighting for now). Israel agreed to stop assassinating top Hamas officials and to ease the restrictions on crossings.
Why does this not move anything forward? Israel was already in the process of easing the restrictions before this all started, and there are no time tables nor specifics on what this actually means. So, all Hamas accomplished was protecting their own inner circle, nothing for their citizens.
They start bombing Israel causing Israel to retaliate and kill a couple of their top operatives, and all they get out of it is Israel saying they will continue to do what they were already doing. So, Hamas created the fighting that killed numerous civilians and accomplished - nothing!!!! That's what terrorists do.
Props all around.
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
we have a great moto-expresion for all this in Greece..
"Theatre of the Absurd"
thats exactly happening down there...
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
In case you didn't read the article on page one of this thread:
Furthermore, articles that do mention the Palestinian casualties in Gaza consistently report that Israeli operations are in response to rockets from Gaza and to the injuring of Israeli soldiers. However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
I'm not going to respond to a slanted article. But, if you want to daisy chain individual deaths that led up to this, you are going to have to go back MUCH further than that. Unfortunately, examples given are not isolated nor new. The fact remains that the bombs flown by Hamas on civilian areas of Israel is the DIRECT cause of the most recent escalation.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
No. That would require clear US approval. It's one thing to defend themselves (they did not invade, so that is a misnomer on your part. They have simply responded to fire with fire. If you want to talk about occupation, or whatever, I'll still disagree, but have at it. But, in this case they did not INVADE), against an entity that the US aknowledges as a terrorist organization. It's quite another to invade another independent country without direct provocation.
Which bombs flown by Hamas, on which day, were the direct cause of the most recent escalations?
This is from the article about the cease from CNN...
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/21/world/mea ... ?hpt=hp_t1
"How this conflict reignited
A rocket alarm howled in the Israeli city of Ashkelon shortly after 7:30 a.m. Wednesday, just minutes after Hamas' TV broadcaster al-Aqsa reported its militants' rockets striking there as well as in the towns of Sderot and Ashdod. CNN's Fred Pleitgen in Ashkelon heard two impacts but could not say if the rockets hit anything.
All told, militants had fired 62 rockets from Gaza as of Wednesday afternoon, with 42 landing in Israel, according to the IDF. The Israeli military's Iron Dome defense system intercepted the other 20, the IDF said."
It is enough of the pointing fingers. Peace can be reached. But if Hamas wants to continue to launch rockets in Sderot, Ashkelon, and Ashdod at Israeli citizens (not military), their people will continue to be put in harms way.
Spotlight is on! There can be middle ground reached where a 2 state system can function. We will see!
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
Nov 11, 100 rockets sent to civilian areas of Israel. Poor aim and good defense limits the casualties. However, if you want to daisy chain back, Hamas has been bombing Israel pretty much daily for the last 7 years since Israel left the Gaza strip.
EDIT: CoT seems to have found a more precise count of this attack, so I'll admit to exaggerating. 62 not 100. Sorry.
However, the chronology of events of the recent flare-up began on November 5, when an innocent, apparently mentally unfit, 20-year old man, Ahmad al-Nabaheen, was shot when he wandered close to the border. Medics had to wait for six hours to be permitted to pick him up and they suspect that he may have died because of that delay. Then, on November 8, a 13-year old boy playing football in front of his house was killed by fire from the IOF that had moved into Gazan territory with tanks as well as helicopters. The wounding of four Israeli soldiers at the border on November 10 was therefore already part of a chain of events where Gazan civilians had been killed, and not the triggering event.
The November 11 rocket attacks were retaliation for the IDF killing a child at play from a helicopter.