What I've learned on "This Moving Train"

comebackgirl

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

dancepartner wrote:

checking back.
To g under p; the wishful thinking comment got me. Yeah, we can vote then hope. And, we can wish for should of's and could of's but the thing is — we create our own reality. So! I've put it out there, a chance to turn a wish into a reality but it's up to you guys, keep wishing — or — take a chance.

To Hugh FD; Anonymity. When I began the Dancing Partner series, I thought a good deal about whether to expose myself, picture and all, or if a unity message would fare better under anonymity. It's now been 3 months. I still don't know the answer to that. Yeah, it provides an easy escape; you don't have to fully own up to what you say which is one reason I like EV. He goes way out there, unafraid to own his words or actions. Sometimes I'm embarrassed for him but then I gotta laugh at the very idea.
For me, 3 months later, I've evloved a bit. I no longer have trepidations about putting out for all the world to see, my beliefs, convictions and passions; the very traits that make me feel fully exposed — anonymous or not. My beliefs, convictions and passions are rock-solid, yet going from a wishing state of mind to actually doing something public, was not easy and though I've grown comfortable, (for the most part) I must still contend with a fickle ego; 'is my average American voice worth resounding or not?' Basically, I try to keep myself centered with the thought that somewhere, somehow, someone, must at least try to rally us and I may have a hard time forgiving myself if I don't at least try.

So tell me, do you think a unity message would fare better if I splayed myself right down to my white ass & crooked smile, or do you think for this mission; it's better to focus on the message rather than the messenger?

To binuaraljam; i'll guess your post had to do with emoticons?

my honest opinion is that if anyone really wants to make a difference and for the world to take them seriously, they can't hide behind a screen name/face. there's no accountability there. and I use the word hide not because that's what we are doing, but because if we try to be taken seriously that is what is perceived. that we can say anything without consequence because we are internet ghosts.

there's one guy on here, I don't know if I see him that much anymore, who used his full real name and picture of himself. I think his name might be Andrew, I think he is from Australia. He said if everyone here did that we'd all be a lot nicer to each other, and he's probably right.

That's a really good point. I'm not sure if everyone hides though...some people probably do...I mean you can pretend to be anyone or anything on the AET and people can get internet muscles...but I also think that to a large extent we are who we are. I would guess that a lot of people behave in their real lives as they do on here and recreate the same dynamics on here as they do in their actual lives. I guess maybe it depends on the person, but I really only know one way to be (although that one way comes fully equipped with mood swings ). Sometimes I wonder if I reveal too much of myself on here. I truly (maybe naively) feel like I know a lot of people on here (probably because I have been fortunate enough to meet a good number of you in person ), but I forget that anyone can read this. I think that probably also having met some posters in real life or having interactions outside of the threads might impact how we interact when posting as well.

rollings

I think the moving train would benefit greatly from "self - monitoring" or "sefl-policing".

that is, once a post is made that attacks the person and doesn't address the opinion/argument just stated, the buzzer needs to be blown and and poster needs to be politely reminded. Not by kat or sea, but by all of us. --Very most importantly...policing OUR OWN SELVES.

Personal attacks are part of so many of these threads,

It just shouldn't be accepted, yet it is.

Not only is it merely accepted, its VERY common practice and by used by ALMOST ALL of the regular posters (yes that you listed) and almost all of the time.

The eye rolling and the face palming smilies should also be disallowed. They promote condoscending which is also a very common practice.

It is just as easy to use the phrases "there must be some misunderstanding" or "I believe you might be misinformed", rather than "You don't know what you're talking about"
yet it is the tone of the latter phrase which is 94 out of 100 times chosen.

This is the biggest breakdown of true debate that I find to be a problem on the moving train that can be easily fixed just by everyone checking their own selves.

brianlux

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

there's one guy on here, I don't know if I see him that much anymore, who used his full real name and picture of himself. I think his name might be Andrew, I think he is from Australia. He said if everyone here did that we'd all be a lot nicer to each other, and he's probably right.

Brave soul! I can't believe he did that!

my real name is Abrahma Lincoln... shhhhh!

rollings

brianlux wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

there's one guy on here, I don't know if I see him that much anymore, who used his full real name and picture of himself. I think his name might be Andrew, I think he is from Australia. He said if everyone here did that we'd all be a lot nicer to each other, and he's probably right.

Brave soul! I can't believe he did that!

my real name is Abrahma Lincoln... shhhhh!

brianlux

Dancepartner- I just read you entire post and found myself reminiscing- even though I've only been here a few years- which is a fairly short time compared to many others here. Your post rings with a real sense of familiarity. I came to the forum in general as a late comer PJ fan and to AMT specifically with a bit a naive idealism (one of my "fatal character flaws" as a friend used to call it) thinking that this might be a place where some of my ideas and some of the things I've learned could be spread around in hopes of making some kind of change in an ailing world. Maybe that's happened but I also realize that changes happen slowly and in small degrees and I am humbled by how very small my contributions really are. My hopes are not so grand here anymore but they are better because I can see the value of a few choice words lending themselves well to the big fat tome to which we all contribute. The world doesn't get better just because a few people make grand statements. The world also gets better because a lot of people do their little bit to make it so. Look at it this way, Dance, we're part of a huge mosaic that's made up of million of little chips of tile and you've already added a few of your own.

As for AMT- my experience in the last few years is that besides being a moving train it is also a fluid and rather dysfunctional family. But a lot of good can come from that. Think the Ramones, "We're a Happy Family".

Who knows if you'll get this stickied- kind of doubtful- but that's probably why they came up with the "bump" concept. In any case, it's generated some good thought and discussion already. Good to have you aboard!

dimitrispearljam

dancepartner wrote:

To dimitris; Alpine tickets eh? I wondered what happened that day.
.

was a crazy day,alot want pj20 tix...

even flow - question mark

cincybearcat wrote:

I've learned that not all Canadians are douche-bags...only an overwhelming majority are!

That's for you "question mark"!

Now you owe me two beers. 8-)

Yeah, it is a good thing that we can agree to disagree on things, and then all meet up for drinks before the shows and laugh our asses off.

PJFAN13

Love is wise; hatred is foolish. In this world, which is getting more and more closely interconnected, we have to learn to tolerate each other, we have to learn to put up with the fact that some people say things that we don't like. We can only live together in that way. But if we are to live together, and not die together, we must learn a kind of charity and a kind of tolerance, which is absolutely vital to the continuation of human life on this planet.
― Bertrand Russell

Thank you, dancepartner & bravo! I for one am glad you are truly learning things -->constitution, politics, environment, etc... There are so many smart, humorous and caring folks on this board.

Why is there a "moving train" or an "AET" to begin with? I would guess Pearl Jam believes people should have a voice, one that can be expressed, regardless of age, race, gender, religion, etc... I would also assume that just being plain respectful would be the only guideline to follow. There is a reason so many of us, from so many different walks of life, come to this place to begin with. Enthusiasm and Spirit for the band we love. Sure, there is moaning and complaining, but ideas CAN actually be built upon. People DO help each other.

These threads allow interested people to trade thoughts, pick up ideas, exchange music, cheerlead (and complain) about PJ, politics etc...

Sadly, like the real physical world, where people engage belly to belly -if you are here long enough, you will find some nasty comments and cheap shots. Depending on the day one is having, once one reads enough cheap shots, one might get angry. When people are angry enough, they eventually lash out and flame back. If these same people treated this as belly to belly and more of a business environment, what would happen if you were mean, rude, crude and inflamatory to your customer or co-workers? Never ends well and the end results are usually poor, right?

(When you sign up for 10 C and the privilege to post here, they should send a PJ rubberband for your wrist - with the instruction: when you want to be angry, retaliate or say something negative towards someone - being downright nasty or rude, simply snap the band back a few times before you post as a reminder!)

I want this train to be a place where people learn, generate ideas, feel safe and are able to communicate with people where spots in their everyday life just wouldn't allow - a safe haven, if you will. Your message of unity is a welcomed one, dancepartner. I am very proud of your efforts here and as well, all of the thoughtful responses from this community.

I for one look forward to more of your light, dancepartner!
SHINE ON!

cincybearcat

even flow - question mark wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

I've learned that not all Canadians are douche-bags...only an overwhelming majority are!

That's for you "question mark"!

Now you owe me two beers. 8-)

Yeah, it is a good thing that we can agree to disagree on things, and then all meet up for drinks before the shows and laugh our asses off.

I'll buy ya 4!!!!

pandora

I've learned much

Biggest... thanks to a few, I've learned I really don't ever want a thick skin,
I want to feel...
it is where my common sense, my logic, my intuition lies.

I say thanks to those who are truly versed both in topics and in people skills,
who want to share, listen, and attempt understanding, after all, that is how we learn.

dancepartner

Good Morning.

To HFD; your points about not hiding are on spot valid. Your thinking is mostly in conjunction with this forum?
My decision for anonymity was based from an "all the world to see" perspective. As an enteral optomist, this came with the thought Dancing Partners would soon take off. Well, I still believe it will but as usual — my timing thoughts are miles off. So yes, when I tallied up the pro's & con's, your points were the primary pro's for full exposure. Here are the pro's for anonymity:

1) focus on the message - not messenger. This still bears consideration and that includes gender. Consider this, say I was a muslim male or a black woman. Even without knowing any other vitals, stereotyping is something humans do quite naturally so for a unity message to gain broader acceptance, I felt the considerations about a few of our unsavory human traits had merit.

2) a unity message which constantly strikes at the very heart of today's debacles: an entire mass disengaged and/or down right complacent & apathetic providing fertile ground to polarize & divide us thereby allowing the sell of our democracy, (lobbyists, Super PAC's, insider trading on the hill), will continue until we reign them in. So there's a ton of accountablitly issues here and with that — comes disclaiming and finger-pointing. And, the easiest target is always the message and messenger.

3) The first half of the DP series deals mostly, with where we've been and where we are being led, but the upcoming installments hammers on our own culpability about where we are right now and how we've allowed the messes to compound. OUr 1st trillion in debt should have been checked about 20 years ago. Instead, we did nothing to demand such and now — look where that one issue alone has got us. Even though I approach this whole series based right out of history & current events rather than a self-righteous judgemental approach, I'm not so nieve as to think the upcoming installments about what Americans are made of nowadays, will go smoothly.

4) All of this, then add: Superintelligence pounding down our door and what will happen to pureform humans once we start morphing into transhuman states. This topic is already bringing out the God-torches and with that comes nuts & fanatics and I'm not keen to put a target on my very backside.

5) But, all roads don't point to Rome anymore—unless you consider: Wall Street is the new Rome. Powermongers have invested billions into techno-futuristic monitoring & replacement designs so one small squeaky voice opposing such is but an annoying fly to them.

6) Finally, by the 9th installment, I use the industry where I work as a very telling example of the ever-growing dysfunction coming on in industries where: human workers (the output side which needs paychecks & healthcare) have already been replaced by so many higher-thinking machines to such a degree — absurdity is now our reality — not efficiency. Considering our GDP is, and has been stalled for some time now at the
%100 mark, I'd say there's a bunch of industries out there as dysfunctional as mine. Problem here is: once my company (a mightly Wall Street corp) gets a whiff of whose behind this series, how long do you think I'll get to keep my job?

These are the counters to full exposure. At Dancing Partners, I write under the Publius pseudonym. I figure this is apt. And, I'm old enough to know the value of leading a relatively obscure life. Something I don't want to easily give up. Still, I'm passionate enough about the all of it; about this current road our elites have got us heading down, that if it comes to whether or not a solid mass presence will get behind the DP series because of my choice for anonymity, then I'd risk it all. I would brace myself for full frontal exposure & cross my fingers.
Okay! Brianlux & now Polaris, have warned me to use smaller bites. I'm trying. I'm also guessing you guys are realizing that a post by dancepartner means it's gonna be long. Sorry.

hedonist

There's much to digest in this thread and I'll hit on some of it later...just wanted to say that one doesn't need to post a photo of themselves or announce their full name in order to be taken seriously, or authentic, or sincere. Much of one's character CAN and does come through via posts; it's how many friendships have formed here and all over.

Privacy is important to me; I like to share of myself on my own terms (and if that sounds selfish, so be it). Doesn't lessen the message or the intent when it's posted by a username vs. a real name.

brianlux

dancepartner wrote:

Good Morning.

To HFD; your points about not hiding are on spot valid.

I'm guessing that if you post anything on the internet, you're are not hiding. Anyone who wants to know badly enough can find out who you are and those of us who do know each other usually do so because we meet up at shows or know each other anyway. Correct?

So not that this is an important train issue or anything, but it surprises me that people generally don't use a photo of themselves or their real names here when, I'm guessing, most do on Facebook.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

hedonist wrote:

There's much to digest in this thread and I'll hit on some of it later...just wanted to say that one doesn't need to post a photo of themselves or announce their full name in order to be taken seriously, or authentic, or sincere. Much of one's character CAN and does come through via posts; it's how many friendships have formed here and all over.

Privacy is important to me; I like to share of myself on my own terms (and if that sounds selfish, so be it). Doesn't lessen the message or the intent when it's posted by a username vs. a real name.

in the contexts of this forum, hedonist, I'd agree with you. But if want to be seen as a leader of some movement (I don't know enough of dancepartner's stuff to know what the motivation is-not saying he is the leader), then I think you need a face. people will follow a movement/message to a point, but humans need a leader and some tangible thing to relate it to. that's all I mean.

JonnyPistachio

This thread is the closest thing to a giant digital group hug I've ever seen. We needed this after the last few weeks.

dancepartner

Trying to keep up.
To comebackgirl; funny thing happened. When I logged off last night, I saw this was 'A Moving Train' not "The moving train... now I know where you guys get the acronym AMT. Then I noticed the one below, AET. so yeah, I'll check AET out sometime. Thanks for the invite!
I posted my hiding thoughts to HFD (just above). It explains my position.

To rollings; self-check versus controls. I surely agree with you. I'm a big fan of self-check. In the Dancing Partner Series, I use a quote from Dr. Carl Jung; "we must learn to move individually-responble in a mass-minded way." This applies to all interactions in our lives. We are a communal species.

To brianlux; Agreed. We are small bits in a large mosaic and bit by bit, we do adapt & conform to the norms of the day. Societal Acceptance. Problem is time. Superintelligence adapts at lightning speed — we don't. Without a revolution to jump-start what's acceptable, this freer-than-ever and educated mass must consider learning quickly what Dr. Jung advises. You may not see time running short with superintelligence coming on strong (but you soon will) but you do see time running short on how fast we are using up our planet. I vote for putting our mosaic together a bit faster!

To pjfan13; Thanks! But I need help to shine on. Being cynical is our new norm. Posted on DP, I used a quote from Newsweek's editor "we have become cynical and just down right nasty". So just as this thread is talking about what we don't want to be the norm for here anymore, it's that bit by bit of our ever-adapting mosaic in-the-making going on right here providing a great example of how we effect change. So even if you guys get tired of my long posts, you will probably continue moving towards a more thoughtful approach to whats acceptable here. So just expand this same concept when considering what changes a small band of us can make on a broader unity scale. Think about just how many basic commonalities we as PJ forum members and therefore, as the great masses of today — truly have going for us!

To Pandora; you want to feel. You hit at the heart of it all. Do we want to strive for precision-robotic states, diluting emotion, or will we value more than intelligence as we head down this road to superintelligence? If you only read one installment at DP, please consider reading Part VI. Let us know what you feel then.

To Hedonist; Yep. It's allot to digest. But somewhere, somehow, average us must begin to do this— together.
All this group has to ask of themselves; do you guys feel qualified to attempt digesting it together, or do you think theres more qualified people meant to do this for us, meant to regurgitate it all to us then tell us how we must move? Politicians? Commentators and pollsters busy telling us how to think; their platforms paid for by someone's feeding hands? The very fact that you want know it's allot to digest, that you know it will take your time but that you are willing—tells me you are fully qualified. Hope you stick to it.

even flow - question mark

dancepartner wrote:

To evenflow- question mark; a canook? the 911 thread, I'll look for it but here's my question back — must it take something like that for us to reach out to each other?

To use "reach out to each other" is a stretch. It was used to divide. Not only the States but the entire world.

hedonist

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

in the contexts of this forum, hedonist, I'd agree with you. But if want to be seen as a leader of some movement (I don't know enough of dancepartner's stuff to know what the motivation is-not saying he is the leader), then I think you need a face. people will follow a movement/message to a point, but humans need a leader and some tangible thing to relate it to. that's all I mean.

No, I get you, Hugh...I was talking about this particular realm. I don't participate in other social media - this is the only website I post on, and even then, it's snippets during work or while at home.

But your comment made me think - way back when, people's messages got out, and resonated, without a face to tie to the cause. Sometimes that message is so powerful that imagery is unnecessary.

And one other thing, about unity...this isn't me being negative by any means, but realistic - I just don't see it as possible; it's not how we're wired, much as we might desire it. I'd rather pursue understanding and respect of differences, learning from each other. Sure we can and do have common goals, but if one's ways of achieving them are different from mine, it doesn't make them "wrong" - and vice versa.

dancepartner

To johnnypistachio; I'm still chuckling over the visual you just gave me — a digital group hug. thks. I'll even use one of those...

To HFD; I'm keeping everyone's anonymity versus credibility thoughts in mind. Your post made me think of one last reason I went anonymous. Probably the biggest reason actually — guess it's why I didn't expand on it.

Pseudonym Publius.
In the very first installment I tell why I used Publius. Publius himself was a roman senator assigned to hashing out societal parimeters that were 'right and just' for the public - hense Publius. Then Hamilton, James & Jay used Publius when they promoted the virtues of our constitution in The Federalist Papers. Again, this is where I got the bright idea to focus on the message — not messenger. Also, this is where I got the bright idea to publish a series rather than a book. To give the mass a regular diet that we could discuss together. Then, because music constantly played in the background for the past few years while sitting on bum typing, it gave me the bright idea to use music quips to help me tell Our Story.
By Part IV (I think here) I had said 'though these installments are long — time is short and we need a shortcut. Think then, how fast we could speed up our societal acceptance process if everyone reading this simply professed to being Publius!

What I'm saying is this: I'm no leader. I just took the time to paste together what I believe to be like our script-in-hand. I'm not even a writer. Mostly, I used data from many books and articles (and of course music) to help tell Our Story—The Story of our Times.
I'm just out here floundering; looking for some core group to be Publius with me. It will grow from there. I know it because I choose to believe in us. However, the PJ group is my favorite.
Other groups I try to cultivate (Facebook, Twitter, Wordpress, The Moderate Voice, NPR) I either get the most trivial banter, silence, or auto-generated Donate Now crap. Although I'm a leader in the regard of what gets posted on Dancing Partners along with a few other directives, one edict I solomnly decree: DP will never once ask for one damn dime!

Cosmo

What have I learned on the 'Moving Train'?
Well, basically, that a few of us apparently didn't pay attention in our high school Government 101 class. And skipped a few American History classes, to boot. Possibly, a refresher course in Political Science 101 at the local community college might be a good intellectual investment.
That too many people rely on their basic source of information on the television... or from Spam E-Mails sent by their Aunt in Victorville. When they do venture out on the Internet to fact find, they look for those opinions that agree with them. Also, Googling a topic in not 'research' it is looking it up and searching out the opinion you are looking for.
It works both ways. This is probably a microcosm of what our National political environment looks like... watching television and agreeing with the ones you agree with. Instead of looking into what a opposing viewpoint is made up of, it is easier to poke holes in it... often times, with factless comments that are not based in truth. We can all find little anecdotal examples on the InterNet to support the premise of our arguements, but the fact remains... they are singular, anecdotal examples... even if they are factual and true.
...
Not saying there aren't intelligent people out here... because most here are. Just that some opinions expressed here lack what they need to have in political debates... truth... fact. Opinions based on emotions are great when talking about art or religion or gun control or any of the subjective topics, but feeling that the government works like this or believing that history occured like that... does not fly. The ones I learn from are the ones that come armed with facts and truth in their arguements... not feelings and belief.
...
Finally, I believe the creator (beit God, Nature, Whatzername...) not only granted us life.. but, intelligent life. We should probably use it... instead of simply taking it for granted.