To HFD; your points about not hiding are on spot valid. Your thinking is mostly in conjunction with this forum?
My decision for anonymity was based from an "all the world to see" perspective. As an enteral optomist, this came with the thought Dancing Partners would soon take off. Well, I still believe it will but as usual — my timing thoughts are miles off. So yes, when I tallied up the pro's & con's, your points were the primary pro's for full exposure. Here are the pro's for anonymity:
1) focus on the message - not messenger. This still bears consideration and that includes gender. Consider this, say I was a muslim male or a black woman. Even without knowing any other vitals, stereotyping is something humans do quite naturally so for a unity message to gain broader acceptance, I felt the considerations about a few of our unsavory human traits had merit.
2) a unity message which constantly strikes at the very heart of today's debacles: an entire mass disengaged and/or down right complacent & apathetic providing fertile ground to polarize & divide us thereby allowing the sell of our democracy, (lobbyists, Super PAC's, insider trading on the hill), will continue until we reign them in. So there's a ton of accountablitly issues here and with that — comes disclaiming and finger-pointing. And, the easiest target is always the message and messenger.
3) The first half of the DP series deals mostly, with where we've been and where we are being led, but the upcoming installments hammers on our own culpability about where we are right now and how we've allowed the messes to compound. OUr 1st trillion in debt should have been checked about 20 years ago. Instead, we did nothing to demand such and now — look where that one issue alone has got us. Even though I approach this whole series based right out of history & current events rather than a self-righteous judgemental approach, I'm not so nieve as to think the upcoming installments about what Americans are made of nowadays, will go smoothly.
4) All of this, then add: Superintelligence pounding down our door and what will happen to pureform humans once we start morphing into transhuman states. This topic is already bringing out the God-torches and with that comes nuts & fanatics and I'm not keen to put a target on my very backside.
5) But, all roads don't point to Rome anymore—unless you consider: Wall Street is the new Rome. Powermongers have invested billions into techno-futuristic monitoring & replacement designs so one small squeaky voice opposing such is but an annoying fly to them.
6) Finally, by the 9th installment, I use the industry where I work as a very telling example of the ever-growing dysfunction coming on in industries where: human workers (the output side which needs paychecks & healthcare) have already been replaced by so many higher-thinking machines to such a degree — absurdity is now our reality — not efficiency. Considering our GDP is, and has been stalled for some time now at the
%100 mark, I'd say there's a bunch of industries out there as dysfunctional as mine. Problem here is: once my company (a mightly Wall Street corp) gets a whiff of whose behind this series, how long do you think I'll get to keep my job?
These are the counters to full exposure. At Dancing Partners, I write under the Publius pseudonym. I figure this is apt. And, I'm old enough to know the value of leading a relatively obscure life. Something I don't want to easily give up. Still, I'm passionate enough about the all of it; about this current road our elites have got us heading down, that if it comes to whether or not a solid mass presence will get behind the DP series because of my choice for anonymity, then I'd risk it all. I would brace myself for full frontal exposure & cross my fingers.
Okay! Brianlux & now Polaris, have warned me to use smaller bites. I'm trying. I'm also guessing you guys are realizing that a post by dancepartner means it's gonna be long. Sorry.
There's much to digest in this thread and I'll hit on some of it later...just wanted to say that one doesn't need to post a photo of themselves or announce their full name in order to be taken seriously, or authentic, or sincere. Much of one's character CAN and does come through via posts; it's how many friendships have formed here and all over.
Privacy is important to me; I like to share of myself on my own terms (and if that sounds selfish, so be it). Doesn't lessen the message or the intent when it's posted by a username vs. a real name.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
To HFD; your points about not hiding are on spot valid.
I'm guessing that if you post anything on the internet, you're are not hiding. Anyone who wants to know badly enough can find out who you are and those of us who do know each other usually do so because we meet up at shows or know each other anyway. Correct?
So not that this is an important train issue or anything, but it surprises me that people generally don't use a photo of themselves or their real names here when, I'm guessing, most do on Facebook.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
There's much to digest in this thread and I'll hit on some of it later...just wanted to say that one doesn't need to post a photo of themselves or announce their full name in order to be taken seriously, or authentic, or sincere. Much of one's character CAN and does come through via posts; it's how many friendships have formed here and all over.
Privacy is important to me; I like to share of myself on my own terms (and if that sounds selfish, so be it). Doesn't lessen the message or the intent when it's posted by a username vs. a real name.
in the contexts of this forum, hedonist, I'd agree with you. But if want to be seen as a leader of some movement (I don't know enough of dancepartner's stuff to know what the motivation is-not saying he is the leader), then I think you need a face. people will follow a movement/message to a point, but humans need a leader and some tangible thing to relate it to. that's all I mean.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Trying to keep up.
To comebackgirl; funny thing happened. When I logged off last night, I saw this was 'A Moving Train' not "The moving train... now I know where you guys get the acronym AMT. Then I noticed the one below, AET. so yeah, I'll check AET out sometime. Thanks for the invite!
I posted my hiding thoughts to HFD (just above). It explains my position.
To rollings; self-check versus controls. I surely agree with you. I'm a big fan of self-check. In the Dancing Partner Series, I use a quote from Dr. Carl Jung; "we must learn to move individually-responble in a mass-minded way." This applies to all interactions in our lives. We are a communal species.
To brianlux; Agreed. We are small bits in a large mosaic and bit by bit, we do adapt & conform to the norms of the day. Societal Acceptance. Problem is time. Superintelligence adapts at lightning speed — we don't. Without a revolution to jump-start what's acceptable, this freer-than-ever and educated mass must consider learning quickly what Dr. Jung advises. You may not see time running short with superintelligence coming on strong (but you soon will) but you do see time running short on how fast we are using up our planet. I vote for putting our mosaic together a bit faster!
To pjfan13; Thanks! But I need help to shine on. Being cynical is our new norm. Posted on DP, I used a quote from Newsweek's editor "we have become cynical and just down right nasty". So just as this thread is talking about what we don't want to be the norm for here anymore, it's that bit by bit of our ever-adapting mosaic in-the-making going on right here providing a great example of how we effect change. So even if you guys get tired of my long posts, you will probably continue moving towards a more thoughtful approach to whats acceptable here. So just expand this same concept when considering what changes a small band of us can make on a broader unity scale. Think about just how many basic commonalities we as PJ forum members and therefore, as the great masses of today — truly have going for us!
To Pandora; you want to feel. You hit at the heart of it all. Do we want to strive for precision-robotic states, diluting emotion, or will we value more than intelligence as we head down this road to superintelligence? If you only read one installment at DP, please consider reading Part VI. Let us know what you feel then.
To Hedonist; Yep. It's allot to digest. But somewhere, somehow, average us must begin to do this— together.
All this group has to ask of themselves; do you guys feel qualified to attempt digesting it together, or do you think theres more qualified people meant to do this for us, meant to regurgitate it all to us then tell us how we must move? Politicians? Commentators and pollsters busy telling us how to think; their platforms paid for by someone's feeding hands? The very fact that you want know it's allot to digest, that you know it will take your time but that you are willing—tells me you are fully qualified. Hope you stick to it.
To evenflow- question mark; a canook? the 911 thread, I'll look for it but here's my question back — must it take something like that for us to reach out to each other?
To use "reach out to each other" is a stretch. It was used to divide. Not only the States but the entire world.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
in the contexts of this forum, hedonist, I'd agree with you. But if want to be seen as a leader of some movement (I don't know enough of dancepartner's stuff to know what the motivation is-not saying he is the leader), then I think you need a face. people will follow a movement/message to a point, but humans need a leader and some tangible thing to relate it to. that's all I mean.
No, I get you, Hugh...I was talking about this particular realm. I don't participate in other social media - this is the only website I post on, and even then, it's snippets during work or while at home.
But your comment made me think - way back when, people's messages got out, and resonated, without a face to tie to the cause. Sometimes that message is so powerful that imagery is unnecessary.
And one other thing, about unity...this isn't me being negative by any means, but realistic - I just don't see it as possible; it's not how we're wired, much as we might desire it. I'd rather pursue understanding and respect of differences, learning from each other. Sure we can and do have common goals, but if one's ways of achieving them are different from mine, it doesn't make them "wrong" - and vice versa.
To johnnypistachio; I'm still chuckling over the visual you just gave me — a digital group hug. thks. I'll even use one of those...
To HFD; I'm keeping everyone's anonymity versus credibility thoughts in mind. Your post made me think of one last reason I went anonymous. Probably the biggest reason actually — guess it's why I didn't expand on it.
Pseudonym Publius.
In the very first installment I tell why I used Publius. Publius himself was a roman senator assigned to hashing out societal parimeters that were 'right and just' for the public - hense Publius. Then Hamilton, James & Jay used Publius when they promoted the virtues of our constitution in The Federalist Papers. Again, this is where I got the bright idea to focus on the message — not messenger. Also, this is where I got the bright idea to publish a series rather than a book. To give the mass a regular diet that we could discuss together. Then, because music constantly played in the background for the past few years while sitting on bum typing, it gave me the bright idea to use music quips to help me tell Our Story.
By Part IV (I think here) I had said 'though these installments are long — time is short and we need a shortcut. Think then, how fast we could speed up our societal acceptance process if everyone reading this simply professed to being Publius!
What I'm saying is this: I'm no leader. I just took the time to paste together what I believe to be like our script-in-hand. I'm not even a writer. Mostly, I used data from many books and articles (and of course music) to help tell Our Story—The Story of our Times.
I'm just out here floundering; looking for some core group to be Publius with me. It will grow from there. I know it because I choose to believe in us. However, the PJ group is my favorite.
Other groups I try to cultivate (Facebook, Twitter, Wordpress, The Moderate Voice, NPR) I either get the most trivial banter, silence, or auto-generated Donate Now crap. Although I'm a leader in the regard of what gets posted on Dancing Partners along with a few other directives, one edict I solomnly decree: DP will never once ask for one damn dime!
What have I learned on the 'Moving Train'?
Well, basically, that a few of us apparently didn't pay attention in our high school Government 101 class. And skipped a few American History classes, to boot. Possibly, a refresher course in Political Science 101 at the local community college might be a good intellectual investment.
That too many people rely on their basic source of information on the television... or from Spam E-Mails sent by their Aunt in Victorville. When they do venture out on the Internet to fact find, they look for those opinions that agree with them. Also, Googling a topic in not 'research' it is looking it up and searching out the opinion you are looking for.
It works both ways. This is probably a microcosm of what our National political environment looks like... watching television and agreeing with the ones you agree with. Instead of looking into what a opposing viewpoint is made up of, it is easier to poke holes in it... often times, with factless comments that are not based in truth. We can all find little anecdotal examples on the InterNet to support the premise of our arguements, but the fact remains... they are singular, anecdotal examples... even if they are factual and true.
...
Not saying there aren't intelligent people out here... because most here are. Just that some opinions expressed here lack what they need to have in political debates... truth... fact. Opinions based on emotions are great when talking about art or religion or gun control or any of the subjective topics, but feeling that the government works like this or believing that history occured like that... does not fly. The ones I learn from are the ones that come armed with facts and truth in their arguements... not feelings and belief.
...
Finally, I believe the creator (beit God, Nature, Whatzername...) not only granted us life.. but, intelligent life. We should probably use it... instead of simply taking it for granted.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
To Cosmo; having a bad day? I'm fairly new here. I guess I don't know how hostile this place can be. However, this thread stemmed from the one about reaching across the isle. Hope you'll consider.
Though this thread has to do finding some unity, it also posed a question at the end; what would you like to see happen on AMT? Besides of course, people posting only intelligent, well-researched things?
Oops. Forgot to post what I had wanted to say. It was the first snowfall of the day but it was warm with no wind. I worked outside until dark and even then, I stood out in it and had a beer. Of course by spring I'll be sick of the damn stuff but today — it was beautiful.
I'm off to pour myself a port and take a hot shower. Yep. Port. If you work at it long enough — you can aquire a taste! Besides, it's cheap. And, it doesn't wake me up at 2am like any good cab will.
Anyway, if I don't meander out, I'd love to engage a bit for my Friday night entertainment. Guess that gives it away — I'm not a young duck anymore...
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
Cosmo, your thoughts about using our minds remind me that the other day I watched "Idiocracy". It's an incredible dumb movie that makes a good point (although a much shorter version would have worked for me- maybe 10 minutes ). But yeah, it's just too easy to grab a sound bite, Google a few "facts", stick them in the micro wave and , voila, an opinion.
Dancepartner- yeah, it's easy to jaded or even bitter at times and we all do that here but hopefully we're learning and it's good to have a fresh voice here such as yours. And a good well-aged port on a cold day- oh yeah!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
To Cosmo; having a bad day? I'm fairly new here. I guess I don't know how hostile this place can be. However, this thread stemmed from the one about reaching across the isle. Hope you'll consider.
Though this thread has to do finding some unity, it also posed a question at the end; what would you like to see happen on AMT? Besides of course, people posting only intelligent, well-researched things?
...
No. This is just in general terms.
It is really a sad statement about our nation when people will automatically assume that what they see on T.V. or hear on the radio or read on the internet is true. Especially, when it is so easy to fact check.
It just shows how easily we are divided. How easily we can be swayed.
I personally, don't care is a person leans to the left or the right... just do so based on opinions based in fact. Read both sides of an arguement and have an informed viewpoint, not your opinion pre-packaged and handed to you by a political pundit/celebrity on the television.
Until we can drop this sports like competition... Red Team vs. Blue Team thing... we will remain divided. People need to realize, the person you have a diametrically opposite viewpoint is not evil... does not hate America... does not want to destroy America. He is just an American with a different point of view. It's when the opinion of the individual is just a piece of a greater machine... by instilling political agendas and creating political partisanship... that, i believe, we lose our identity as Americans.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
This thread is the closest thing to a giant digital group hug I've ever seen. We needed this after the last few weeks.
this thread is the closet thing to a AMT thread being normal in years. as someone who was AMT many years ago, i feel the last few days are very refreshing to see. now all we need is abookamongstthemany and the other old timers to come outta the woodwork.
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Cosmo, your thoughts about using our minds remind me that the other day I watched "Idiocracy". It's an incredible dumb movie that makes a good point (although a much shorter version would have worked for me- maybe 10 minutes ). But yeah, it's just too easy to grab a sound bite, Google a few "facts", stick them in the micro wave and , voila, an opinion.
Dancepartner- yeah, it's easy to jaded or even bitter at times and we all do that here but hopefully we're learning and it's good to have a fresh voice here such as yours. And a good well-aged port on a cold day- oh yeah!
...
That is the direction we are heading. I think we need to understand how government works so we know how we can change it.
Example, we always talk about Term Limits. We HAVE Term Limits... it's called voting the incumbants out. Our problem is, we view 'our side' (Republican or Democrat) as the ones who need to stay and 'their side' as the ones that need to go. That is exactly what politicians want. And, like idiots, we give them exactly what they ask.
For a short period there, the Tea Party had it right... 'Oust ALL incumbants'. Then, they got hi-jacked by the Republicans and their voice box, FOX News and became nothing more than the militant wing of the Republican Party. I actually supported the Tea Party at the first inception. but, once it became a Republican offshoot... I bailed.
Anyway... that's my take on Term Limits. We don't need restrictions on our votes... we need to use our vote for the good of our country... not the good of a fucking political party.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Here's something I learned about AMT a long time ago.... it's all fucking bullshit. There's no locomotive, no caboose, no conductor. Not even a damn whistle.
I came here to look at pictures of choo choo's and next thing I know I have somebody in my ear screaming about the defense budget.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
Here's something I learned about AMT a long time ago.... it's all fucking bullshit. There's no locomotive, no caboose, no conductor. Not even a damn whistle.
I came here to look at pictures of choo choo's and next thing I know I have somebody in my ear screaming about the defense budget.
The only consolation, SatansFuton- there is a lounge car!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
To Brian; glad you like port! And, thanks for the lounge car. If we must be here on a damn Friday night, we should enjoy ourselves!
To Cosmo; Term limits is one Excellent idea! I've been thinking about posting an experiment (not something for Frid night) but I was thinking of 3 things we (blue & red) could all agree needs our united attention. Term limits would DEFINATELY BE ONE! thanks!
To Gary Carter; you mean someone here is older than brianlux and me? goodie! bring 'em outta the woodwork. Ps. nice to hear the word refreshing.
To satansfuton; Glad to see I wasn't the only one confused about this train! If there were a choo choo, what drives it? We do know the lounge car is something we can look forward to.
Oops. Forgot to post what I had wanted to say. It was the first snowfall of the day but it was warm with no wind. I worked outside until dark and even then, I stood out in it and had a beer. Of course by spring I'll be sick of the damn stuff but today — it was beautiful.
I'm off to pour myself a port and take a hot shower. Yep. Port. If you work at it long enough — you can aquire a taste! Besides, it's cheap. And, it doesn't wake me up at 2am like any good cab will.
Anyway, if I don't meander out, I'd love to engage a bit for my Friday night entertainment. Guess that gives it away — I'm not a young duck anymore...
What I've learned and most enjoyed about not only AMT but all the forums is heard
right here in this post.
I was able to be right there in the snow with you for only a moment
and I cried. The picture you painted is beautiful. Nice way to start my day with my own
memories of first snowfalls.
I really miss shoveling in the dark, it's never really dark in the snow.
Morning all!
Snow is a foot deep but it's still warm out.
To hedonist; We all walk the long road. Yeah. EV is young in this video! I don't know if you meant this song 'kinda fits here' in the groove of this thread, but when the lines "all the friends & family, all the memories goin' round" makes me think that's what you are relating to. Seems many of you here have a rich history of memories. Not just in this forum, but you meet at shows and that's got to include lots of great memories.
To Pandora; Speaking of memories — I'm so glad my visual of this first snow returned to you some fine memories. Thanks for sharing that.
You had posted earlier — you want to feel life. Me to. I've had my fill of politically correct stuffy folks who seem to distance themselves from feeling their way thru this thing we call life. We do indeed walk the long road and I think for the ones who don't walk it hand-in-hand with their very being to guide them, that is to say — to feel their way down this road, then they've gravely short-changed themselves.
Though this thread has to do finding some unity, it also posed a question at the end; what would you like to see happen on AMT? Besides of course, people posting only intelligent, well-researched things?
Tolerance. Respect. Not taking a post personally (self - control and detachment). The absence of trolls. Open-mindedness. And above all, critical thinking. This is supposed to be an intelligent forum, and while many here offer intelligent thought, it's nothing like the old pit days. The level of intelligent, thoughtful and respectful debate of the past when these forums were free is in no comparison of what it's become. It's embarrassing to compare the two, really.
I really respect your wish to bring us together dancepartner, perhaps the energy of a newbie is the only way we can actually make a difference to this place. I sincerely hope it works.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
Though this thread has to do finding some unity, it also posed a question at the end; what would you like to see happen on AMT? Besides of course, people posting only intelligent, well-researched things?
Tolerance. Respect. Not taking a post personally (self - control and detachment). The absence of trolls. Open-mindedness. And above all, critical thinking. This is supposed to be an intelligent forum, and while many here offer intelligent thought, it's nothing like the old pit days. The level of intelligent, thoughtful and respectful debate of the past when these forums were free is in no comparison of what it's become. It's embarrassing to compare the two, really.
I really respect your wish to bring us together dancepartner, perhaps the energy of a newbie is the only way we can actually make a difference to this place. I sincerely hope it works.
This is an excellent set of goals Jeanwah. I think it's safe to say no one here has been consistent in following all of these and it very much seems worth the time to think about each one of them. There are at least a few on your list that hit me where it hurts a bit. A few I should thumb tack to my forehead.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I finally had time to read through this thread and thought I'd chime in with a couple of thoughts.
First, I like my anonymity on here but this is who I am in real life so I feel my posts mostly reflect my off line personality. I think it should be focus on the message not the messenger. I liked someone's earlier comment about The Federalist Papers and how Jay, Madison and Hamilton never felt the need to reveal their authorship of these important essays. Historians have had to guess about who wrote all 85 essays but authorship doesn't change how important their message was and still is today (we just read Federalist #10 this week, how's that for timing?). I've revealed some real things about myself on here to facilitate understanding of my thought process and why I feel/think the way I do about things. I like coming here because I like discussing current events and thought PJ peeps would be like minded. By that I don't mean that we would all be the same political affiliations but that we would mostly be critical thinkers.
Second, I think I've been somewhat disappointed by the lack of critical thinking I've seen from some. I choose to not post in some topics because I'm not very knowledgeable and don't feel like chiming in if I don't have something intelligent to add. Someone earlier said we don't know our history and civics and I completely agree. I am annoyed with people who state that its their opinion and that's all they have to say. Whatever happened to supporting your opinion with facts and research? Voltaire should be amended to say "I do not agree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it BUT only if you have a well informed and critical analysis to support your position
I have met some great people on here whom I would love to meet in real life because so many of you have had wonderful, thoughtful posts that have really made me think. In part, I came here because I teach high school kids and when we speak of American history or current events I cannot give my own opinion but have to play devil's advocate and AMT gives me the opportunity to explore my own views for my own sake but also gives me another perspective to present to my students.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
What I've learned is if one supports their opinion with statistics and facts
they can then be shot down because the poster of the opposing opinion
doesn't like the source, content or comes back with "statistics can be twisted" to fit.
hmmm...
There are some really bright people here and those brightest stars do not
put others down for being themselves.
They don't have to to feel better about themselves. They know how good they are
and this includes their heart. Something AMT could use more lessons in.
I've also learned that the rudest and meanest seem to be the most unhappy
and negative which with kindness and understanding from all
this could possibly help.
When I first came here and began reading silently I was appalled at how religious people
were beat up here. To the point they did not want to speak :wtf:
I'm glad to see some are proud to share their beliefs as I am and are not
met with as much rudeness as in the past. So I guess if some can learn to ignore
we can have a respectful AMT, that would be very
Morning all!
Snow is a foot deep but it's still warm out.
To hedonist; We all walk the long road. Yeah. EV is young in this video! I don't know if you meant this song 'kinda fits here' in the groove of this thread, but when the lines "all the friends & family, all the memories goin' round" makes me think that's what you are relating to. Seems many of you here have a rich history of memories. Not just in this forum, but you meet at shows and that's got to include lots of great memories.
To Pandora; Speaking of memories — I'm so glad my visual of this first snow returned to you some fine memories. Thanks for sharing that.
You had posted earlier — you want to feel life. Me to. I've had my fill of politically correct stuffy folks who seem to distance themselves from feeling their way thru this thing we call life. We do indeed walk the long road and I think for the ones who don't walk it hand-in-hand with their very being to guide them, that is to say — to feel their way down this road, then they've gravely short-changed themselves.
dancepartner I have been accused of feeling too much...
basing opinions on just that.
I do not deny it nor could I or would I change it.
I must stay true to heart. We are all connected our paths intertwined in each moment.
Just as your words your experience brought my memories and emotion...
action and reaction learning along the way.
Still learning.
Jeanwah; your post, and others, keep reminding me how little I know about AMT. Maybe this is good. Though there seems to be many good, shared memories everyone has from this AMT experience, there seems to be plenty of unwelcome baggage. Maybe it's simply time to move on so thanks for the vote of confidence, if this standing forum is willing, this newbie would like to bring forward moving energy to AMT.
Brain; you get the lesson in humility star. Change does come, first, from within.
riotgirl; A teacher! Hats off to you. I'd bet every one of us has a teacher's wisdom residing, recessed in our memories, as one of but a few adults who helped us understand the value of believing in ourselves. Thank you for not only putting up with our youth, but seeing their individual values. Speaking of kids and thanks, since Brian served up a dish of humility and it's Veterans Day, I need to call my son and thank him too.
As for the Federalist Papers, and the timing, synchronicity reminds me to stand in awe of how truly connected we really are.
Pandora; I surely can relate to being afraid to speak here. Still am. My very first posts hit that snag so I pouted and I checked out for a time. Gary Carters post, I think, was referring to this as well.
P.s. about feeling our way thru life; techno inanimate its are here to show us what it's like to exist without emotion. Mr. Roboto comes to mind.
Though this thread has to do finding some unity, it also posed a question at the end; what would you like to see happen on AMT? Besides of course, people posting only intelligent, well-researched things?
Tolerance. Respect. Not taking a post personally (self - control and detachment). The absence of trolls. Open-mindedness. And above all, critical thinking. This is supposed to be an intelligent forum, and while many here offer intelligent thought, it's nothing like the old pit days. The level of intelligent, thoughtful and respectful debate of the past when these forums were free is in no comparison of what it's become. It's embarrassing to compare the two, really.
I really respect your wish to bring us together dancepartner, perhaps the energy of a newbie is the only way we can actually make a difference to this place. I sincerely hope it works.
This is an excellent set of goals Jeanwah. I think it's safe to say no one here has been consistent in following all of these and it very much seems worth the time to think about each one of them. There are at least a few on your list that hit me where it hurts a bit. A few I should thumb tack to my forehead.
And I'm not perfect Brian, some of those traits I know I can improve as well. Sometimes we can't help but show our bad sides when we're not feeling so great or if we feel we're on the defense, but maybe unplugging is the best idea in that case. Advice for myself and everyone really.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
And I'm not perfect Brian, some of those traits I know I can improve as well. Sometimes we can't help but show our bad sides when we're not feeling so great or if we feel we're on the defense, but maybe unplugging is the best idea in that case. Advice for myself and everyone really.
And I really do appreciate that advice, Jeanwah. It's a good reminder that we can be better. No one can ever be too good.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
To HFD; your points about not hiding are on spot valid. Your thinking is mostly in conjunction with this forum?
My decision for anonymity was based from an "all the world to see" perspective. As an enteral optomist, this came with the thought Dancing Partners would soon take off. Well, I still believe it will but as usual — my timing thoughts are miles off. So yes, when I tallied up the pro's & con's, your points were the primary pro's for full exposure. Here are the pro's for anonymity:
1) focus on the message - not messenger. This still bears consideration and that includes gender. Consider this, say I was a muslim male or a black woman. Even without knowing any other vitals, stereotyping is something humans do quite naturally so for a unity message to gain broader acceptance, I felt the considerations about a few of our unsavory human traits had merit.
2) a unity message which constantly strikes at the very heart of today's debacles: an entire mass disengaged and/or down right complacent & apathetic providing fertile ground to polarize & divide us thereby allowing the sell of our democracy, (lobbyists, Super PAC's, insider trading on the hill), will continue until we reign them in. So there's a ton of accountablitly issues here and with that — comes disclaiming and finger-pointing. And, the easiest target is always the message and messenger.
3) The first half of the DP series deals mostly, with where we've been and where we are being led, but the upcoming installments hammers on our own culpability about where we are right now and how we've allowed the messes to compound. OUr 1st trillion in debt should have been checked about 20 years ago. Instead, we did nothing to demand such and now — look where that one issue alone has got us. Even though I approach this whole series based right out of history & current events rather than a self-righteous judgemental approach, I'm not so nieve as to think the upcoming installments about what Americans are made of nowadays, will go smoothly.
4) All of this, then add: Superintelligence pounding down our door and what will happen to pureform humans once we start morphing into transhuman states. This topic is already bringing out the God-torches and with that comes nuts & fanatics and I'm not keen to put a target on my very backside.
5) But, all roads don't point to Rome anymore—unless you consider: Wall Street is the new Rome. Powermongers have invested billions into techno-futuristic monitoring & replacement designs so one small squeaky voice opposing such is but an annoying fly to them.
6) Finally, by the 9th installment, I use the industry where I work as a very telling example of the ever-growing dysfunction coming on in industries where: human workers (the output side which needs paychecks & healthcare) have already been replaced by so many higher-thinking machines to such a degree — absurdity is now our reality — not efficiency. Considering our GDP is, and has been stalled for some time now at the
%100 mark, I'd say there's a bunch of industries out there as dysfunctional as mine. Problem here is: once my company (a mightly Wall Street corp) gets a whiff of whose behind this series, how long do you think I'll get to keep my job?
These are the counters to full exposure. At Dancing Partners, I write under the Publius pseudonym. I figure this is apt. And, I'm old enough to know the value of leading a relatively obscure life. Something I don't want to easily give up. Still, I'm passionate enough about the all of it; about this current road our elites have got us heading down, that if it comes to whether or not a solid mass presence will get behind the DP series because of my choice for anonymity, then I'd risk it all. I would brace myself for full frontal exposure & cross my fingers.
Okay! Brianlux & now Polaris, have warned me to use smaller bites. I'm trying. I'm also guessing you guys are realizing that a post by dancepartner means it's gonna be long. Sorry.
Privacy is important to me; I like to share of myself on my own terms (and if that sounds selfish, so be it). Doesn't lessen the message or the intent when it's posted by a username vs. a real name.
I'm guessing that if you post anything on the internet, you're are not hiding. Anyone who wants to know badly enough can find out who you are and those of us who do know each other usually do so because we meet up at shows or know each other anyway. Correct?
So not that this is an important train issue or anything, but it surprises me that people generally don't use a photo of themselves or their real names here when, I'm guessing, most do on Facebook.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
in the contexts of this forum, hedonist, I'd agree with you. But if want to be seen as a leader of some movement (I don't know enough of dancepartner's stuff to know what the motivation is-not saying he is the leader), then I think you need a face. people will follow a movement/message to a point, but humans need a leader and some tangible thing to relate it to. that's all I mean.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
To comebackgirl; funny thing happened. When I logged off last night, I saw this was 'A Moving Train' not "The moving train... now I know where you guys get the acronym AMT. Then I noticed the one below, AET. so yeah, I'll check AET out sometime. Thanks for the invite!
I posted my hiding thoughts to HFD (just above). It explains my position.
To rollings; self-check versus controls. I surely agree with you. I'm a big fan of self-check. In the Dancing Partner Series, I use a quote from Dr. Carl Jung; "we must learn to move individually-responble in a mass-minded way." This applies to all interactions in our lives. We are a communal species.
To brianlux; Agreed. We are small bits in a large mosaic and bit by bit, we do adapt & conform to the norms of the day. Societal Acceptance. Problem is time. Superintelligence adapts at lightning speed — we don't. Without a revolution to jump-start what's acceptable, this freer-than-ever and educated mass must consider learning quickly what Dr. Jung advises. You may not see time running short with superintelligence coming on strong (but you soon will) but you do see time running short on how fast we are using up our planet. I vote for putting our mosaic together a bit faster!
To pjfan13; Thanks! But I need help to shine on. Being cynical is our new norm. Posted on DP, I used a quote from Newsweek's editor "we have become cynical and just down right nasty". So just as this thread is talking about what we don't want to be the norm for here anymore, it's that bit by bit of our ever-adapting mosaic in-the-making going on right here providing a great example of how we effect change. So even if you guys get tired of my long posts, you will probably continue moving towards a more thoughtful approach to whats acceptable here. So just expand this same concept when considering what changes a small band of us can make on a broader unity scale. Think about just how many basic commonalities we as PJ forum members and therefore, as the great masses of today — truly have going for us!
To Pandora; you want to feel. You hit at the heart of it all. Do we want to strive for precision-robotic states, diluting emotion, or will we value more than intelligence as we head down this road to superintelligence? If you only read one installment at DP, please consider reading Part VI. Let us know what you feel then.
To Hedonist; Yep. It's allot to digest. But somewhere, somehow, average us must begin to do this— together.
All this group has to ask of themselves; do you guys feel qualified to attempt digesting it together, or do you think theres more qualified people meant to do this for us, meant to regurgitate it all to us then tell us how we must move? Politicians? Commentators and pollsters busy telling us how to think; their platforms paid for by someone's feeding hands? The very fact that you want know it's allot to digest, that you know it will take your time but that you are willing—tells me you are fully qualified. Hope you stick to it.
To use "reach out to each other" is a stretch. It was used to divide. Not only the States but the entire world.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
But your comment made me think - way back when, people's messages got out, and resonated, without a face to tie to the cause. Sometimes that message is so powerful that imagery is unnecessary.
And one other thing, about unity...this isn't me being negative by any means, but realistic - I just don't see it as possible; it's not how we're wired, much as we might desire it. I'd rather pursue understanding and respect of differences, learning from each other. Sure we can and do have common goals, but if one's ways of achieving them are different from mine, it doesn't make them "wrong" - and vice versa.
To HFD; I'm keeping everyone's anonymity versus credibility thoughts in mind. Your post made me think of one last reason I went anonymous. Probably the biggest reason actually — guess it's why I didn't expand on it.
Pseudonym Publius.
In the very first installment I tell why I used Publius. Publius himself was a roman senator assigned to hashing out societal parimeters that were 'right and just' for the public - hense Publius. Then Hamilton, James & Jay used Publius when they promoted the virtues of our constitution in The Federalist Papers. Again, this is where I got the bright idea to focus on the message — not messenger. Also, this is where I got the bright idea to publish a series rather than a book. To give the mass a regular diet that we could discuss together. Then, because music constantly played in the background for the past few years while sitting on bum typing, it gave me the bright idea to use music quips to help me tell Our Story.
By Part IV (I think here) I had said 'though these installments are long — time is short and we need a shortcut. Think then, how fast we could speed up our societal acceptance process if everyone reading this simply professed to being Publius!
What I'm saying is this: I'm no leader. I just took the time to paste together what I believe to be like our script-in-hand. I'm not even a writer. Mostly, I used data from many books and articles (and of course music) to help tell Our Story—The Story of our Times.
I'm just out here floundering; looking for some core group to be Publius with me. It will grow from there. I know it because I choose to believe in us. However, the PJ group is my favorite.
Other groups I try to cultivate (Facebook, Twitter, Wordpress, The Moderate Voice, NPR) I either get the most trivial banter, silence, or auto-generated Donate Now crap. Although I'm a leader in the regard of what gets posted on Dancing Partners along with a few other directives, one edict I solomnly decree: DP will never once ask for one damn dime!
Well, basically, that a few of us apparently didn't pay attention in our high school Government 101 class. And skipped a few American History classes, to boot. Possibly, a refresher course in Political Science 101 at the local community college might be a good intellectual investment.
That too many people rely on their basic source of information on the television... or from Spam E-Mails sent by their Aunt in Victorville. When they do venture out on the Internet to fact find, they look for those opinions that agree with them. Also, Googling a topic in not 'research' it is looking it up and searching out the opinion you are looking for.
It works both ways. This is probably a microcosm of what our National political environment looks like... watching television and agreeing with the ones you agree with. Instead of looking into what a opposing viewpoint is made up of, it is easier to poke holes in it... often times, with factless comments that are not based in truth. We can all find little anecdotal examples on the InterNet to support the premise of our arguements, but the fact remains... they are singular, anecdotal examples... even if they are factual and true.
...
Not saying there aren't intelligent people out here... because most here are. Just that some opinions expressed here lack what they need to have in political debates... truth... fact. Opinions based on emotions are great when talking about art or religion or gun control or any of the subjective topics, but feeling that the government works like this or believing that history occured like that... does not fly. The ones I learn from are the ones that come armed with facts and truth in their arguements... not feelings and belief.
...
Finally, I believe the creator (beit God, Nature, Whatzername...) not only granted us life.. but, intelligent life. We should probably use it... instead of simply taking it for granted.
Hail, Hail!!!
Though this thread has to do finding some unity, it also posed a question at the end; what would you like to see happen on AMT? Besides of course, people posting only intelligent, well-researched things?
I'm off to pour myself a port and take a hot shower. Yep. Port. If you work at it long enough — you can aquire a taste! Besides, it's cheap. And, it doesn't wake me up at 2am like any good cab will.
Anyway, if I don't meander out, I'd love to engage a bit for my Friday night entertainment. Guess that gives it away — I'm not a young duck anymore...
Dancepartner- yeah, it's easy to jaded or even bitter at times and we all do that here but hopefully we're learning and it's good to have a fresh voice here such as yours. And a good well-aged port on a cold day- oh yeah!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
No. This is just in general terms.
It is really a sad statement about our nation when people will automatically assume that what they see on T.V. or hear on the radio or read on the internet is true. Especially, when it is so easy to fact check.
It just shows how easily we are divided. How easily we can be swayed.
I personally, don't care is a person leans to the left or the right... just do so based on opinions based in fact. Read both sides of an arguement and have an informed viewpoint, not your opinion pre-packaged and handed to you by a political pundit/celebrity on the television.
Until we can drop this sports like competition... Red Team vs. Blue Team thing... we will remain divided. People need to realize, the person you have a diametrically opposite viewpoint is not evil... does not hate America... does not want to destroy America. He is just an American with a different point of view. It's when the opinion of the individual is just a piece of a greater machine... by instilling political agendas and creating political partisanship... that, i believe, we lose our identity as Americans.
Hail, Hail!!!
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
That is the direction we are heading. I think we need to understand how government works so we know how we can change it.
Example, we always talk about Term Limits. We HAVE Term Limits... it's called voting the incumbants out. Our problem is, we view 'our side' (Republican or Democrat) as the ones who need to stay and 'their side' as the ones that need to go. That is exactly what politicians want. And, like idiots, we give them exactly what they ask.
For a short period there, the Tea Party had it right... 'Oust ALL incumbants'. Then, they got hi-jacked by the Republicans and their voice box, FOX News and became nothing more than the militant wing of the Republican Party. I actually supported the Tea Party at the first inception. but, once it became a Republican offshoot... I bailed.
Anyway... that's my take on Term Limits. We don't need restrictions on our votes... we need to use our vote for the good of our country... not the good of a fucking political party.
Hail, Hail!!!
I came here to look at pictures of choo choo's and next thing I know I have somebody in my ear screaming about the defense budget.
The only consolation, SatansFuton- there is a lounge car!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
To Cosmo; Term limits is one Excellent idea! I've been thinking about posting an experiment (not something for Frid night) but I was thinking of 3 things we (blue & red) could all agree needs our united attention. Term limits would DEFINATELY BE ONE! thanks!
To Gary Carter; you mean someone here is older than brianlux and me? goodie! bring 'em outta the woodwork. Ps. nice to hear the word refreshing.
To satansfuton; Glad to see I wasn't the only one confused about this train! If there were a choo choo, what drives it? We do know the lounge car is something we can look forward to.
I'm off to dinner. Back later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaNoeoyc ... re=related
(so what if I'm pleasantly buzzed? The lesson, still applied
right here in this post.
I was able to be right there in the snow with you for only a moment
and I cried. The picture you painted is beautiful. Nice way to start my day with my own
memories of first snowfalls.
I really miss shoveling in the dark, it's never really dark in the snow.
Snow is a foot deep but it's still warm out.
To hedonist; We all walk the long road. Yeah. EV is young in this video! I don't know if you meant this song 'kinda fits here' in the groove of this thread, but when the lines "all the friends & family, all the memories goin' round" makes me think that's what you are relating to. Seems many of you here have a rich history of memories. Not just in this forum, but you meet at shows and that's got to include lots of great memories.
To Pandora; Speaking of memories — I'm so glad my visual of this first snow returned to you some fine memories. Thanks for sharing that.
You had posted earlier — you want to feel life. Me to. I've had my fill of politically correct stuffy folks who seem to distance themselves from feeling their way thru this thing we call life. We do indeed walk the long road and I think for the ones who don't walk it hand-in-hand with their very being to guide them, that is to say — to feel their way down this road, then they've gravely short-changed themselves.
Tolerance. Respect. Not taking a post personally (self - control and detachment). The absence of trolls. Open-mindedness. And above all, critical thinking. This is supposed to be an intelligent forum, and while many here offer intelligent thought, it's nothing like the old pit days. The level of intelligent, thoughtful and respectful debate of the past when these forums were free is in no comparison of what it's become. It's embarrassing to compare the two, really.
I really respect your wish to bring us together dancepartner, perhaps the energy of a newbie is the only way we can actually make a difference to this place. I sincerely hope it works.
This is an excellent set of goals Jeanwah. I think it's safe to say no one here has been consistent in following all of these and it very much seems worth the time to think about each one of them. There are at least a few on your list that hit me where it hurts a bit. A few I should thumb tack to my forehead.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
First, I like my anonymity on here but this is who I am in real life so I feel my posts mostly reflect my off line personality. I think it should be focus on the message not the messenger. I liked someone's earlier comment about The Federalist Papers and how Jay, Madison and Hamilton never felt the need to reveal their authorship of these important essays. Historians have had to guess about who wrote all 85 essays but authorship doesn't change how important their message was and still is today (we just read Federalist #10 this week, how's that for timing?). I've revealed some real things about myself on here to facilitate understanding of my thought process and why I feel/think the way I do about things. I like coming here because I like discussing current events and thought PJ peeps would be like minded. By that I don't mean that we would all be the same political affiliations but that we would mostly be critical thinkers.
Second, I think I've been somewhat disappointed by the lack of critical thinking I've seen from some. I choose to not post in some topics because I'm not very knowledgeable and don't feel like chiming in if I don't have something intelligent to add. Someone earlier said we don't know our history and civics and I completely agree. I am annoyed with people who state that its their opinion and that's all they have to say. Whatever happened to supporting your opinion with facts and research? Voltaire should be amended to say "I do not agree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it BUT only if you have a well informed and critical analysis to support your position
I have met some great people on here whom I would love to meet in real life because so many of you have had wonderful, thoughtful posts that have really made me think. In part, I came here because I teach high school kids and when we speak of American history or current events I cannot give my own opinion but have to play devil's advocate and AMT gives me the opportunity to explore my own views for my own sake but also gives me another perspective to present to my students.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
they can then be shot down because the poster of the opposing opinion
doesn't like the source, content or comes back with "statistics can be twisted" to fit.
hmmm...
There are some really bright people here and those brightest stars do not
put others down for being themselves.
They don't have to to feel better about themselves. They know how good they are
and this includes their heart. Something AMT could use more lessons in.
I've also learned that the rudest and meanest seem to be the most unhappy
and negative which with kindness and understanding from all
this could possibly help.
When I first came here and began reading silently I was appalled at how religious people
were beat up here. To the point they did not want to speak :wtf:
I'm glad to see some are proud to share their beliefs as I am and are not
met with as much rudeness as in the past. So I guess if some can learn to ignore
we can have a respectful AMT, that would be very
basing opinions on just that.
I do not deny it nor could I or would I change it.
I must stay true to heart. We are all connected our paths intertwined in each moment.
Just as your words your experience brought my memories and emotion...
action and reaction learning along the way.
Jeanwah; your post, and others, keep reminding me how little I know about AMT. Maybe this is good. Though there seems to be many good, shared memories everyone has from this AMT experience, there seems to be plenty of unwelcome baggage. Maybe it's simply time to move on so thanks for the vote of confidence, if this standing forum is willing, this newbie would like to bring forward moving energy to AMT.
Brain; you get the lesson in humility star. Change does come, first, from within.
riotgirl; A teacher! Hats off to you. I'd bet every one of us has a teacher's wisdom residing, recessed in our memories, as one of but a few adults who helped us understand the value of believing in ourselves. Thank you for not only putting up with our youth, but seeing their individual values. Speaking of kids and thanks, since Brian served up a dish of humility and it's Veterans Day, I need to call my son and thank him too.
As for the Federalist Papers, and the timing, synchronicity reminds me to stand in awe of how truly connected we really are.
Pandora; I surely can relate to being afraid to speak here. Still am. My very first posts hit that snag so I pouted and I checked out for a time. Gary Carters post, I think, was referring to this as well.
P.s. about feeling our way thru life; techno inanimate its are here to show us what it's like to exist without emotion. Mr. Roboto comes to mind.
And I'm not perfect Brian, some of those traits I know I can improve as well. Sometimes we can't help but show our bad sides when we're not feeling so great or if we feel we're on the defense, but maybe unplugging is the best idea in that case. Advice for myself and everyone really.
And I really do appreciate that advice, Jeanwah. It's a good reminder that we can be better. No one can ever be too good.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"