For you... it is a question of money. For me, a question of morality. My moral compass points me towards valuing the life of a human above monetary value.
That is the major difference in our differing perspectives.
The whole idea of universal health care is access to health care services for everyone... even the one's that cannot afford it.
And there you go again... about the 'illegals'. To me, I see them as human beings.
Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury. As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.
Can you provide any real facts for that?
no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
Do I think it's justice to provide everyone in the country health care?
Unequivically yes. Every time. No exceptions.
you mean socialized healthcare?
Yes. Every time. Nobody should go bankrupt because they get sick or die because they can't afford coverage. I don't care if they are here illegally or not. If it means I have to pay an extra $5 a month in taxes to cover those who are here illegally, a human life to me is worth more than $60.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury.
As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.
...
No... I do not think a moral compass is a luxury. We all have moral compasses, rich, poor or otherwise. Which direction our compass points is decided by us.
Now, just to clue you in.. i'm am not going to get involved with one of your circular discussions. The basis of this is the life of death of one person and their inability to pay their hospital bill. You see him as undeserving because he is in this country illegally and should have been left to die... and i see him as just another human being that is alive today thanks to the sacrifice of a great nation that sees people in a greater light than money.
I see it unfair to put someone else into poverty. To come to a country illegally,
use it's social services, flood it with extra costs, lower it's value for the citizens
of that country.
Like I said good for you you can afford
to pay the tax and pay for insurance. Maybe you can then afford to do even more?
As others in your position. Perhaps that could be a solution an extra required
sponsorship to provide for those who can not afford insurance.
But still we see it is a none issue for you so you can pretend
to have better morals than those
less fortunate who are not in your position.
Do you think you have more morals than the father working 2 jobs
but who can not afford health plans for his wife and kids?
This man who would like a solution to rising health care costs and taxation
and be on a level playing field. The father who is paying out to others
while he and his family are in need, just as much need.
The repercussions of paying for one is paying for millions.
It is causing rising health costs keeping people from affording healthcare,
it is causing higher taxation and the cycle perpetuates.
No sympathy I see for the American families struggling,
who do not have the luxury to afford either insurance or penalties and taxes,
they are being buried.
But glad you you have a moral compass, just selective perhaps.
The illegal immigrant in the link was cared for, do I think he should not have been?
Of course not, he should not have been here.
The hospital relied on donations and charities to help cover the millions
in medical costs his illness required.
Hopefully more people of means, like you, will step up
and give to cover these costs. Perhaps then the cycle will cease
and the American Dad working two jobs will be able to afford a bronze plan
and the higher taxes it takes to keep our social services intact.
Personally I don't think it will be enough. This Dad wants to send his kids to college too.
1) it doesn't make the rich richer. In fact, it actually forces health insurance companies to provide the service that they took money to provide. They are no longer able to just cut someone off the moment they get sick.
You can't truly "force" an insurance company to do anything. They will just make up the profit somewhere else along the process. Higher taxes...or forcing a company into higher expenses - either always get passed along to the consumer or the company takes its business elsewhere.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Do I think it's justice to provide everyone in the country health care?
Unequivically yes. Every time. No exceptions.
you mean socialized healthcare?
Yes. Every time. Nobody should go bankrupt because they get sick or die because they can't afford coverage. I don't care if they are here illegally or not. If it means I have to pay an extra $5 a month in taxes to cover those who are here illegally, a human life to me is worth more than $60.
Can you pay much more and really help fix the problem? I mean 60 bucks come on
we are talking default of hospital bills approaching 50 billion ...yikes!
driving up health costs devaluing care.
I would rather see free government hospitals then Obamacare.
Can you pay much more and really help fix the problem? I mean 60 bucks come on
we are talking default of hospital bills approaching 50 billion ...yikes!
driving up health costs devaluing care.
I would rather see free government hospitals then Obamacare.
So would I! I don't know why the USA won't switch to a single payer system... You guys have single payer police protection, fire fighters, etc... Why not health care?
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Can you pay much more and really help fix the problem? I mean 60 bucks come on
we are talking default of hospital bills approaching 50 billion ...yikes!
driving up health costs devaluing care.
I would rather see free government hospitals then Obamacare.
So would I! I don't know why the USA won't switch to a single payer system... You guys have single payer police protection, fire fighters, etc... Why not health care?
Because it's a scam designed to line the pockets of the insurance companies and politicians. Any initiative that depends on mandates of private companies and doing more of the same thing we've been doing - which is getting worse and worse - will not work.
The private companies will just charge more for their services and the costs will continue to skyrocket.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Can you pay much more and really help fix the problem? I mean 60 bucks come on
we are talking default of hospital bills approaching 50 billion ...yikes!
driving up health costs devaluing care.
I would rather see free government hospitals then Obamacare.
So would I! I don't know why the USA won't switch to a single payer system... You guys have single payer police protection, fire fighters, etc... Why not health care?
Because it's a scam designed to line the pockets of the insurance companies and politicians. Any initiative that depends on mandates of private companies and doing more of the same thing we've been doing - which is getting worse and worse - will not work.
The private companies will just charge more for their services and the costs will continue to skyrocket.
That would be true if it wasn't for the provision that insurance companies have to reinvest 85% of their profits back into themselves. So there won't be those 20 million dollar bonuses for the guys who find ways to withhold care and kill people.
That would be true if it wasn't for the provision that insurance companies have to reinvest 85% of their profits back into themselves. So there won't be those 20 million dollar bonuses for the guys who find ways to withhold care and kill people.
Your statement doesn't really have anything to do with controlling the costs they pass along to their customers.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Unfortunately, there are those who would rather listen to cable news or radio con men who make millions by instilling fear and idiotic conspiracy theories on those dumb enough to listen to them and buy their books.
How much $$$ does Rush Limbaugh make? Bill O'Reilly? Sean Hannity?
How much does a soldier make? A teacher?
How is obamacare going to affect me, a middle class father with a family? We all have healthcare through employer. The insurance is good and we pay a decent rate for a family of five. That is my main question? If an individual doesn't have insurance but must get it now because of obamacare where does he get it from, and insurance company or the gov't?
- You will now be guaranteed access to & will save money on a wide range of preventive care services.
- You can't be discriminated against due to any pre-existing condition.
- Your wife can't be descriminated against because of her gender.
- Your children can stay on your policy until they are 26.
- Your insurance company will be required to spec a certain percentage on actual health care instead of administrative overhead.
- Et cetera.
Sounds pretty good for someone like me. What is wrong with Obamacare then
It does the OPPOSITE of what it was intended to do - "bend the cost curve."
We already did cover everybody. There are plenty of Medicaid studies (I refer to this b/c that is really what this law does - expand Medicaid - the rest is mostly noise) that show even with access to preventive care, folks rarely access it appropriately. Furthermore, Medicaid recipients tend to seek care in inappropriate sites. For example, the inordinate use of Emergency Room care over Urgent care centers or primary physician offices that can provide more efficient care (both from an OUTCOMES perspective and financial perspective).
The problem with the pre-ex clause and tax combination - the healthier, younger folks will simply opt out and pay the tax as it will be cheaper than them being thrown into what effectively becomes a high risk pool (they will be paying more than their Actuarial equivalent coverage calls for - now that's ok. Most folks do initially. But, when it's INORDINANTLY cheaper to go bare and take the risk, folks will opt for that.). So, what pre-ex folks are left with, is basically paying for their own coverage, which in theory is more expensive than just simply paying for their care in the first place. Now, it won't be quite that extreme, as it won't be so black and white. But, you can bet there will be anti-selection in the exchange marketplace, creating what will probably be deemed unaffordable options for folks anyway. That's why I'm saying above that this is basically just an expansion of Medicaid - that's really the only provision that will have a significant change to the marketplace. The pre-ex everyone lauds will actually cause INCREASED expenditures. Instead of simply relying on indigent care and the like, these folks will be paying for those costs PLUS administrative charges (and before anyone says - that's why we need single payer - who do you think administers more efficiently - government or private enterprise? And if you think government - why has Medicare Advantage proven to be more cost effective for the government than straight Fee for Service - government paid - Medicare?).
But, this list highlights why Obama will win. It's simple to list stuff that sounds good. Understanding how it actually interacts with other pieces of the legislation and reality is a much tougher thing.
(I love the wife won't be discriminated part - what about the 50 year old female that will now be charged MORE because you can't gender rate. I love how folks think of pregnancy - which isn't by definition an insurable coverage (not saying it shouldn't be covered, just stating the FACT of insurance) - but neglect the fact that middle aged men cost WAY more than middle aged women. So, after you're done having babies - which is more of your life - this provision actually favors men over women - that's the great inside joke for folks that understand this stuff.)
I could go on. But, suffice it to say that you should really educate yourself on what the results of these things really are. The cost will far outweigh the benefit of this bill.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Unfortunately, there are those who would rather listen to cable news or radio con men who make millions by instilling fear and idiotic conspiracy theories on those dumb enough to listen to them and buy their books.
How much $$$ does Rush Limbaugh make? Bill O'Reilly? Sean Hannity?
How much does a soldier make? A teacher?
- You will now be guaranteed access to & will save money on a wide range of preventive care services.
- You can't be discriminated against due to any pre-existing condition.
- Your wife can't be descriminated against because of her gender.
- Your children can stay on your policy until they are 26.
- Your insurance company will be required to spec a certain percentage on actual health care instead of administrative overhead.
- Et cetera.
Sounds pretty good for someone like me. What is wrong with Obamacare then
It does the OPPOSITE of what it was intended to do - "bend the cost curve."
We already did cover everybody. There are plenty of Medicaid studies (I refer to this b/c that is really what this law does - expand Medicaid - the rest is mostly noise) that show even with access to preventive care, folks rarely access it appropriately. Furthermore, Medicaid recipients tend to seek care in inappropriate sites. For example, the inordinate use of Emergency Room care over Urgent care centers or primary physician offices that can provide more efficient care (both from an OUTCOMES perspective and financial perspective).
The problem with the pre-ex clause and tax combination - the healthier, younger folks will simply opt out and pay the tax as it will be cheaper than them being thrown into what effectively becomes a high risk pool (they will be paying more than their Actuarial equivalent coverage calls for - now that's ok. Most folks do initially. But, when it's INORDINANTLY cheaper to go bare and take the risk, folks will opt for that.). So, what pre-ex folks are left with, is basically paying for their own coverage, which in theory is more expensive than just simply paying for their care in the first place. Now, it won't be quite that extreme, as it won't be so black and white. But, you can bet there will be anti-selection in the exchange marketplace, creating what will probably be deemed unaffordable options for folks anyway. That's why I'm saying above that this is basically just an expansion of Medicaid - that's really the only provision that will have a significant change to the marketplace. The pre-ex everyone lauds will actually cause INCREASED expenditures. Instead of simply relying on indigent care and the like, these folks will be paying for those costs PLUS administrative charges (and before anyone says - that's why we need single payer - who do you think administers more efficiently - government or private enterprise? And if you think government - why has Medicare Advantage proven to be more cost effective for the government than straight Fee for Service - government paid - Medicare?).
But, this list highlights why Obama will win. It's simple to list stuff that sounds good. Understanding how it actually interacts with other pieces of the legislation and reality is a much tougher thing.
(I love the wife won't be discriminated part - what about the 50 year old female that will now be charged MORE because you can't gender rate. I love how folks think of pregnancy - which isn't by definition an insurable coverage (not saying it shouldn't be covered, just stating the FACT of insurance) - but neglect the fact that middle aged men cost WAY more than middle aged women. So, after you're done having babies - which is more of your life - this provision actually favors men over women - that's the great inside joke for folks that understand this stuff.)
I could go on. But, suffice it to say that you should really educate yourself on what the results of these things really are. The cost will far outweigh the benefit of this bill.
I'm pretty well educated on the matter and I disagree with your post.
Sounds pretty good for someone like me. What is wrong with Obamacare then
It does the OPPOSITE of what it was intended to do - "bend the cost curve."
We already did cover everybody. There are plenty of Medicaid studies (I refer to this b/c that is really what this law does - expand Medicaid - the rest is mostly noise) that show even with access to preventive care, folks rarely access it appropriately. Furthermore, Medicaid recipients tend to seek care in inappropriate sites. For example, the inordinate use of Emergency Room care over Urgent care centers or primary physician offices that can provide more efficient care (both from an OUTCOMES perspective and financial perspective).
The problem with the pre-ex clause and tax combination - the healthier, younger folks will simply opt out and pay the tax as it will be cheaper than them being thrown into what effectively becomes a high risk pool (they will be paying more than their Actuarial equivalent coverage calls for - now that's ok. Most folks do initially. But, when it's INORDINANTLY cheaper to go bare and take the risk, folks will opt for that.). So, what pre-ex folks are left with, is basically paying for their own coverage, which in theory is more expensive than just simply paying for their care in the first place. Now, it won't be quite that extreme, as it won't be so black and white. But, you can bet there will be anti-selection in the exchange marketplace, creating what will probably be deemed unaffordable options for folks anyway. That's why I'm saying above that this is basically just an expansion of Medicaid - that's really the only provision that will have a significant change to the marketplace. The pre-ex everyone lauds will actually cause INCREASED expenditures. Instead of simply relying on indigent care and the like, these folks will be paying for those costs PLUS administrative charges (and before anyone says - that's why we need single payer - who do you think administers more efficiently - government or private enterprise? And if you think government - why has Medicare Advantage proven to be more cost effective for the government than straight Fee for Service - government paid - Medicare?).
But, this list highlights why Obama will win. It's simple to list stuff that sounds good. Understanding how it actually interacts with other pieces of the legislation and reality is a much tougher thing.
(I love the wife won't be discriminated part - what about the 50 year old female that will now be charged MORE because you can't gender rate. I love how folks think of pregnancy - which isn't by definition an insurable coverage (not saying it shouldn't be covered, just stating the FACT of insurance) - but neglect the fact that middle aged men cost WAY more than middle aged women. So, after you're done having babies - which is more of your life - this provision actually favors men over women - that's the great inside joke for folks that understand this stuff.)
I could go on. But, suffice it to say that you should really educate yourself on what the results of these things really are. The cost will far outweigh the benefit of this bill.
I'm pretty well educated on the matter and I disagree with your post.
Ok. I won't ask you to answer my entire post. But, can you tell me about how it will "bend the cost curve?"
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury. As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.
Can you provide any real facts for that?
no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
yes, anecdotal evidence is what I use too.
the fact is there were 45 million uninsured in the US and less then 7 were illegal.
but like most republican causes they fail to see the big picture.
but they know god at least. god hates poor people. especially brown ones.
Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury. As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.
Can you provide any real facts for that?
no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
And all these people that flood the service (as you described), don't pay, take away beds and rooms from people like you are all illegal immigrants? That's what you see in your emergency room? Or is it maybe non-white people that need medical help (just like you, or whoever you were with, needed when going to the ER)? What are you really saying? Too many hispanics (or other race/culture..) innundating the hospitals? How would you know who is illegal or not, who has insurance or not, who is american or foreign? Or have you gone around the ER and, on your numerous visits, taken a poll and asked to see papers?
no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
And all these people that flood the service (as you described), don't pay, take away beds and rooms from people like you are all illegal immigrants? That's what you see in your emergency room? Or is it maybe non-white people that need medical help (just like you, or whoever you were with, needed when going to the ER)? What are you really saying? Too many hispanics (or other race/culture..) innundating the hospitals? How would you know who is illegal or not, who has insurance or not, who is american or foreign? Or have you gone around the ER and, on your numerous visits, taken a poll and asked to see papers?
Jeez....
Of course not all :fp: really come on
can we be sensible?
50 billion in unpaid debt to our hospitals in 2011, this incurred by all races all colors of course.
Yes I am saying our social budget is out of control due in part to illegal immigrants.
Our rising medical costs are due in part to illegal immigrants not paying their bills.
Because someone wants to stop immigrants from entering our country illegally
and want a solution to those here does not make them racist
though some immediately try to use that to brand another.
It is ridiculous and lacks good common sense.
What I am saying is illegal immigrants and Obamacare will actually force some
into poverty. The hard working father can not afford the bronze plan,
so he and his family go uninsured and the kids can't go to the doctor....
they must go to the ER and pay a $1500 visit. Which they do over time.
He is penalized by the government with a tax penalty for not carrying insurance,
less money coming home to pay for food on the table.
Taxes are raised to cover the enormous social budget that provides for millions of
illegal immigrants ... more money out of his weekly pay.
The exchange of posts being on the subject of illegal immigrants. Your response and reference to the ER was based on illegal immigrants.
We get what you're saying.
Pandora: To come to a country illegally, use it's social services, flood it with extra costs
Pandora: The illegal immigrant in the link was cared for, do I think he should not have been? Of course not, he should not have been here.
Pandora: ...fair to pay for illegal people's bills
Pandora: As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Smellyman: Can you provide any real facts for that?
Pandora: no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.[/color]
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
So you agree now?
Wow... if that's how you read this post, I'm more than flabbergasted. :shock: Talk about obtuse.
Or maybe this is just part of your 'trolling' and I'm taking the bait again... silly me.
No Pandora, I don't agree to anything that is xenophobic like putting the woes of a country on a certain population of such country. But you know that and you understood my post perfectly.
The exchange of posts being on the subject of illegal immigrants. Your response and reference to the ER was based on illegal immigrants.
We get what you're saying.
Pandora: To come to a country illegally, use it's social services, flood it with extra costs
Pandora: The illegal immigrant in the link was cared for, do I think he should not have been? Of course not, he should not have been here.
Pandora: ...fair to pay for illegal people's bills
Pandora: As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Smellyman: Can you provide any real facts for that?
Pandora: no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.[/color]
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
So you agree now?
Wow... if that's how you read this post, I'm more than flabbergasted. :shock: Talk about obtuse.
Or maybe this is just part of your 'trolling' and I'm taking the bait again... silly me.
I guess we can't be sensible if you really thought I meant all of the unpaid medical debt
and the rising costs of medical care was due to illegal immigrants.
Oh boy oy oy
no not obtuse :fp:
it is true ...
you can not take a joke
see Mr. McCready's response to this on the front page of pearljam.com
what are your thoughts on his video? ... correct me if I am wrong but you support the GOP do you not?
I am independent and support idividuals and ideals not a party. didn't get to watch the video as i am at work and don't have my speakers hooked up here. I just read what was written below it.
Comments
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
use it's social services, flood it with extra costs, lower it's value for the citizens
of that country.
Like I said good for you you can afford
to pay the tax and pay for insurance. Maybe you can then afford to do even more?
As others in your position. Perhaps that could be a solution an extra required
sponsorship to provide for those who can not afford insurance.
But still we see it is a none issue for you so you can pretend
to have better morals than those
less fortunate who are not in your position.
Do you think you have more morals than the father working 2 jobs
but who can not afford health plans for his wife and kids?
This man who would like a solution to rising health care costs and taxation
and be on a level playing field. The father who is paying out to others
while he and his family are in need, just as much need.
The repercussions of paying for one is paying for millions.
It is causing rising health costs keeping people from affording healthcare,
it is causing higher taxation and the cycle perpetuates.
No sympathy I see for the American families struggling,
who do not have the luxury to afford either insurance or penalties and taxes,
they are being buried.
But glad you you have a moral compass, just selective perhaps.
The illegal immigrant in the link was cared for, do I think he should not have been?
Of course not, he should not have been here.
The hospital relied on donations and charities to help cover the millions
in medical costs his illness required.
Hopefully more people of means, like you, will step up
and give to cover these costs. Perhaps then the cycle will cease
and the American Dad working two jobs will be able to afford a bronze plan
and the higher taxes it takes to keep our social services intact.
Personally I don't think it will be enough. This Dad wants to send his kids to college too.
You can't truly "force" an insurance company to do anything. They will just make up the profit somewhere else along the process. Higher taxes...or forcing a company into higher expenses - either always get passed along to the consumer or the company takes its business elsewhere.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
we are talking default of hospital bills approaching 50 billion ...yikes!
driving up health costs devaluing care.
I would rather see free government hospitals then Obamacare.
Oh, yeah, because they'd be, you know, "free" right?
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Because it's a scam designed to line the pockets of the insurance companies and politicians. Any initiative that depends on mandates of private companies and doing more of the same thing we've been doing - which is getting worse and worse - will not work.
The private companies will just charge more for their services and the costs will continue to skyrocket.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
That would be true if it wasn't for the provision that insurance companies have to reinvest 85% of their profits back into themselves. So there won't be those 20 million dollar bonuses for the guys who find ways to withhold care and kill people.
Your statement doesn't really have anything to do with controlling the costs they pass along to their customers.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Bump, bump.
Unfortunately, there are those who would rather listen to cable news or radio con men who make millions by instilling fear and idiotic conspiracy theories on those dumb enough to listen to them and buy their books.
How much $$$ does Rush Limbaugh make? Bill O'Reilly? Sean Hannity?
How much does a soldier make? A teacher?
"God" Bless 'Merica
freedom....freedom...freedom
It does the OPPOSITE of what it was intended to do - "bend the cost curve."
We already did cover everybody. There are plenty of Medicaid studies (I refer to this b/c that is really what this law does - expand Medicaid - the rest is mostly noise) that show even with access to preventive care, folks rarely access it appropriately. Furthermore, Medicaid recipients tend to seek care in inappropriate sites. For example, the inordinate use of Emergency Room care over Urgent care centers or primary physician offices that can provide more efficient care (both from an OUTCOMES perspective and financial perspective).
The problem with the pre-ex clause and tax combination - the healthier, younger folks will simply opt out and pay the tax as it will be cheaper than them being thrown into what effectively becomes a high risk pool (they will be paying more than their Actuarial equivalent coverage calls for - now that's ok. Most folks do initially. But, when it's INORDINANTLY cheaper to go bare and take the risk, folks will opt for that.). So, what pre-ex folks are left with, is basically paying for their own coverage, which in theory is more expensive than just simply paying for their care in the first place. Now, it won't be quite that extreme, as it won't be so black and white. But, you can bet there will be anti-selection in the exchange marketplace, creating what will probably be deemed unaffordable options for folks anyway. That's why I'm saying above that this is basically just an expansion of Medicaid - that's really the only provision that will have a significant change to the marketplace. The pre-ex everyone lauds will actually cause INCREASED expenditures. Instead of simply relying on indigent care and the like, these folks will be paying for those costs PLUS administrative charges (and before anyone says - that's why we need single payer - who do you think administers more efficiently - government or private enterprise? And if you think government - why has Medicare Advantage proven to be more cost effective for the government than straight Fee for Service - government paid - Medicare?).
But, this list highlights why Obama will win. It's simple to list stuff that sounds good. Understanding how it actually interacts with other pieces of the legislation and reality is a much tougher thing.
(I love the wife won't be discriminated part - what about the 50 year old female that will now be charged MORE because you can't gender rate. I love how folks think of pregnancy - which isn't by definition an insurable coverage (not saying it shouldn't be covered, just stating the FACT of insurance) - but neglect the fact that middle aged men cost WAY more than middle aged women. So, after you're done having babies - which is more of your life - this provision actually favors men over women - that's the great inside joke for folks that understand this stuff.)
I could go on. But, suffice it to say that you should really educate yourself on what the results of these things really are. The cost will far outweigh the benefit of this bill.
Amen!
I'm pretty well educated on the matter and I disagree with your post.
Ok. I won't ask you to answer my entire post. But, can you tell me about how it will "bend the cost curve?"
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
yes, anecdotal evidence is what I use too.
the fact is there were 45 million uninsured in the US and less then 7 were illegal.
but like most republican causes they fail to see the big picture.
but they know god at least. god hates poor people. especially brown ones.
And all these people that flood the service (as you described), don't pay, take away beds and rooms from people like you are all illegal immigrants? That's what you see in your emergency room? Or is it maybe non-white people that need medical help (just like you, or whoever you were with, needed when going to the ER)? What are you really saying? Too many hispanics (or other race/culture..) innundating the hospitals? How would you know who is illegal or not, who has insurance or not, who is american or foreign? Or have you gone around the ER and, on your numerous visits, taken a poll and asked to see papers?
Jeez....
Perhaps you could explain that red statement...
what is this republican cause you speak of?
And your last statement of course is filled with biased hate. :fp:
this is a good unbiased read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_i ... ted_States
can we be sensible?
50 billion in unpaid debt to our hospitals in 2011, this incurred by all races all colors of course.
Yes I am saying our social budget is out of control due in part to illegal immigrants.
Our rising medical costs are due in part to illegal immigrants not paying their bills.
Because someone wants to stop immigrants from entering our country illegally
and want a solution to those here does not make them racist
though some immediately try to use that to brand another.
It is ridiculous and lacks good common sense.
What I am saying is illegal immigrants and Obamacare will actually force some
into poverty. The hard working father can not afford the bronze plan,
so he and his family go uninsured and the kids can't go to the doctor....
they must go to the ER and pay a $1500 visit. Which they do over time.
He is penalized by the government with a tax penalty for not carrying insurance,
less money coming home to pay for food on the table.
Taxes are raised to cover the enormous social budget that provides for millions of
illegal immigrants ... more money out of his weekly pay.
The justice is not there for him.
We get what you're saying.
Pandora: To come to a country illegally, use it's social services, flood it with extra costs
Pandora: The illegal immigrant in the link was cared for, do I think he should not have been?
Of course not, he should not have been here.
Pandora: ...fair to pay for illegal people's bills
Pandora: As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Smellyman: Can you provide any real facts for that?
Pandora: no not gonna take the time with something so common sense..
Read the article I posted about one case and do the math.[/color]
Have you been to the emergency room in the past few years?
Perhaps take a trip spend the day...
I have been, unfortunately way too numerous of times.
No beds, no rooms,
no one paying their bill, causing medical costs to rise of course.
Wow... if that's how you read this post, I'm more than flabbergasted. :shock: Talk about obtuse.
Or maybe this is just part of your 'trolling' and I'm taking the bait again... silly me.
No Pandora, I don't agree to anything that is xenophobic like putting the woes of a country on a certain population of such country. But you know that and you understood my post perfectly.
and the rising costs of medical care was due to illegal immigrants.
Oh boy oy oy
no not obtuse :fp:
it is true ...
you can not take a joke
And yes, I can take a joke but I do not find wanting to deny medical care to a whole section of the population a laughing matter.
I'm done with this 'exchange' but no doubt you wil want the last word as you usually do. Then again, I may be pleasantly surprised.
what are your thoughts on his video? ... correct me if I am wrong but you support the GOP do you not?
I am independent and support idividuals and ideals not a party. didn't get to watch the video as i am at work and don't have my speakers hooked up here. I just read what was written below it.