I dont know what your experiance with Communism is but I would let you know what mine is. My family fled Communism and my grandfather died in Communist prison because he refused to give up his business to the government. My godfather lost his son and wife. They were executed because he didnt support the Communist movement. So I would never advocate for a system that imprisons or enslaves people to one strict ideology.
Except none of this applies to what occurred in Latin America. These were popular Nationalist movements designed to shift the balance of power and prosperity back to the native population. Calling them Communist does not justify committing genocide against these people.
And as for advocating 'for a system that imprisons or enslaves people to one strict ideology', I've done nothing of the sort.
I dont know what your experiance with Communism is but I would let you know what mine is. My family fled Communism and my grandfather died in Communist prison because he refused to give up his business to the government. My godfather lost his son and wife. They were executed because he didnt support the Communist movement. So I would never advocate for a system that imprisons or enslaves people to one strict ideology.
I don't intend this to sound insensitive to your family's plight...but you could also look at it this way: if America had chosen to 'free', or assist your family by dropping bombs on your previous country (assuming they didn't), you might have never had the chance to flee...
I dont know what your experiance with Communism is but I would let you know what mine is. My family fled Communism and my grandfather died in Communist prison because he refused to give up his business to the government. My godfather lost his son and wife. They were executed because he didnt support the Communist movement. So I would never advocate for a system that imprisons or enslaves people to one strict ideology.
Except none of this justifies what occurred in Latin America.
You are saying that the United States commited mass murder and I am saying that Comminists did the samething. It doesn't make it right but you cant lay the blame on the United States. Is it right to imprison someone because they do not want to give up their home or business? Is it right to execute a person because they dont want their children to be indoctrinated?
I live in South Florida and see Cubans, Nicaraguans, Salvodorians and scores of others that fleed the system that you are defending. I will tell what I also see...I dont see Americans getting on boats and planes fleeing the United States to Cuba, N. Korea or Vietnam because they want to live in a Communist nation.
You are saying that the United States commited mass murder and I am saying that Comminists did the same thing. It doesn't make it right but you cant lay the blame on the United States. Is it right to imprison someone because they do not want to give up their home or business? Is it right to execute a person because they dont want their children to be indoctrinated?
What mass murder by so-called 'Communists' was committed in Latin America. Please enlighten me.
I live in South Florida and see Cubans, Nicaraguans, Salvodorians and scores of others that fleed the system that you are defending. I will tell what I also see...I dont see Americans getting on boats and planes fleeing the United States to Cuba, N. Korea or Vietnam because they want to live in a Communist nation.
Would you rather that Cuba had remained an off-shore sweat-shop and casino run by the mafia for U.S interests?
Either way, I think you're confusing what happened in Cuba, with what happened in Guatemala. This thread is about U.S Presidents, and I was simply drawing attention to how Reagan directly supported, defended, trained and funded death squads in Guatemala that committed genocide against the indigenous Mayan population.
Not to mention U.S support for death squads in Nicaragua and El Salvador.
I dont know what your experiance with Communism is but I would let you know what mine is. My family fled Communism and my grandfather died in Communist prison because he refused to give up his business to the government. My godfather lost his son and wife. They were executed because he didnt support the Communist movement. So I would never advocate for a system that imprisons or enslaves people to one strict ideology.
I don't intend this to sound insensitive to your family's plight...but you could also look at it this way: if America had chosen to 'free', or assist your family by dropping bombs on your previous country (assuming they didn't), you might have never had the chance to flee...
No the United States didnt intervene but many wish that the had. It was my parents country, I was born in the U.S. But the point is if the United States had assisted then things might of been diffrent.
You are saying that the United States commited mass murder and I am saying that Comminists did the same thing. It doesn't make it right but you cant lay the blame on the United States. Is it right to imprison someone because they do not want to give up their home or business? Is it right to execute a person because they dont want their children to be indoctrinated?
What mass murder by so-called 'Communists' was committed in Latin America. Please enlighten me.
I live in South Florida and see Cubans, Nicaraguans, Salvodorians and scores of others that fleed the system that you are defending. I will tell what I also see...I dont see Americans getting on boats and planes fleeing the United States to Cuba, N. Korea or Vietnam because they want to live in a Communist nation.
Would you rather that Cuba had remained an off-shore sweat-shop and casino run by the mafia for U.S interests?
I am no way advocating for Batista and his regime. He was no better than Castro except he didnt last as long. Yes you are correct the mafia was huge in Cuba during Batista and his government was corrupt. With that being said it was not in the terrible condition it is in now.
Either way, I think you're confusing what happened in Cuba, with what happened in Guatemala. This thread is about U.S Presidents, and I was simply drawing attention to how Reagan directly supported, defended, trained and funded death squads in Guatemala that committed genocide against the indigenous Mayan population.
Yeah how did we get into this. I actually said Clinton was the best president.
http://skylightpictures.com/films/when_ ... ns_tremble
This new, updated version of the 1983 classic on war and social revolution in Guatemala is a vigorous and persuasive documentary. It describes the struggle of the largely Indian peasantry against a heritage of state and foreign oppression. Centered on the experiences of Rigoberta Menchú, a Quich Indian woman, the film knits a variety of forms--- interviews, direct address, re-enactment, video transmission, and on the spot footage shot at great hazard--- into a wide-ranging and remarkable cohesive epic canvas of the Guatemalan struggle.
Despite the long history of oppression it depicts, the overall effect of the film is exhilarating; with clarity and energy it conveys the birth of a national and political awareness.
"When the Mountains Tremble" was updated and re-released in 1992 when Rigoberta Menchú won the Nobel Peace Prize. The film now includes what happened in Guatemala in the intervening 10 years, and footage of the Nobel ceremony.
"When the Mountains Tremble" was released theatrically in 40 U.S. cities and 30 foreign countries. It was shown on PBS and recieved awards at the Sundance Film Festival (Special Jury Award), the American Film Festival (Blue Ribbon Award), and the Havana Film Festival (Grand Coral Award, Best North American Documentary).
Ríos Montt accused over deaths of 1,700 people and alleged campaign of rape and torture against leftist insurgents
Guardian.co.uk
27th January 2012
Former Guatemalan dictator Efraín Ríos Montt will face trial on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity as the Central American nation seeks to draw a line under a brutal 36-year civil war.
A judge found sufficient evidence that linked Ríos Montt, who ruled during a particularly bloody period in 1982-83, to the killing of more than 1,700 indigenous people in a crackdown on insurgents.
'In the summer of 1954 the United States toppled the government of Guatemala.
In a war of nerves the elected government of Jacobo Arbenz fell a mere ten days after the war began.
Arbenz's fatal mistake was expropriating land from the American United Fruit Company, and distributing it to landless peasants. For this he was branded a communist, a Soviet agent, and a dangerous enemy to American national security.
It was the CIA's most triumphant covert operation, but it was also the beginning of the end. The CIA-backed coup was the precursor to the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and threw Guatemala into a downward spiral of government-sponsored terror and mass murder.'
The so-called War against Communism had nothing to do with Communism. Just as the so-called 'War on terror' has nothing to do with fighting a war on terror. It's about maintaining U.S global dominance and exploitation of it's client states.
Though fortunately for Latin America, they appear to have now turned the tide.
2 disastrous wars-check
war crimes-check
woeful mismanagement of Katrina disaster-check
unemployment jumps from 4 to 7.5%-check
remember the stock market during bush's tenure, what a fkn disaster that was-check
inherits a budget surplus and leaves with a trillion+ deficit-check
poverty rate for Americans double-check
leaves office with a 22% approval rating-check
his vp shoots someone in the face-check
his party (3 years later) still loathes him and would like to forget he was ever president-check
when both sides of the aisle consider a president a failure, you have the worst president ever.
San Diego Sports Arena - Oct 25, 2000 MGM Grand - Jul 6, 2006 Cox Arena - Jul 7, 2006 New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival - May 1, 2010 Alpine Valley Music Theater - Sep 3-4 2011 Made In America, Philly - Sep 2, 2012 EV, Houston - Nov 12-13, 2012 Dallas-November 2013 OKC-November 2013 ACL 2-October 2014 Fenway Night 1, August 2016 Wrigley, Night 1 August 2018 Fort Worth, Night 1 September 2023 Fort Worth, Night 2 September 2023 Austin, Night 1 September 2023 Austin, Night 2 September 2023
Reagan declared war against international terrorism
Of course he did:
Noam Chomsky - Distorted Morality - http://www.torrentz.com/80741d6bd91bbf9 ... d554ef552f - in which he mentions the fact that the U.S and Israel both voted against a U.N resolution condemning international terrorism in 1987. The U.S then used it's veto and blocked the resolution. The reasons given for their negative votes were that the following paragraphs were unacceptable to them...
8. Also urges all States, unilaterally and in co-operation with other
States, as well as relevant United Nations organs, to contribute to the
progressive elimination of the causes underlying international terrorism and
to pay special attention to all situations, including colonialism, racism and
situations involving mass and flagrant violations of human rights and
fundamental freedoms and those involving alien domination and occupation, that may give rise to international terrorism and may endanger international peace and security;
14. Considers that nothing in the present resolution could in any way
prejudice the right to self-determination, freedom and independence, as
derived from the Charter of the United Nations, of peoples forcibly deprived
of that right referred to in the Declaration on Principles of International
Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, particularly peoples under colonial and racist regimes and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial domination, nor, in accordance with the principles of the Charter and in conformity with the above-mentioned Declaration, the right of these peoples to struggle to this end and to seek and receive support;
At the time of this resolution the ANC was regarded by the U.S as a terrorist organization - hence, the following phrase was seen by the U.S as problematic..
'..peoples under colonial and racist regimes..'
..and hence why the following U.N resolutions were all vetoed by the U.S..
1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with apartheid South Africa.
1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.
1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement
1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions. 7 resolutions.
1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.
1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 15 resolutions.
1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.
1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.
1984 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 18 resolutions.
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa. http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le2000.htm
Also, the phrase '..and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial
domination...' was understood by everybody to refer to the Israeli occupation of the West bank and Gaza. And so the resolution condemning terrorism was vetoed by the U.S because it would have interfered with U.S terrorist activities in Latin America and it's unconditional military, economic, and diplomatic support for Israeli terrorism in the West Bank and Gaza.
The resolution:
153 - 2 [U.S, Israel] with one abstention (Honduras)
2 disastrous wars-check
war crimes-check
woeful mismanagement of Katrina disaster-check
unemployment jumps from 4 to 7.5%-check
remember the stock market during bush's tenure, what a fkn disaster that was-check
inherits a budget surplus and leaves with a trillion+ deficit-check
poverty rate for Americans double-check
leaves office with a 22% approval rating-check
his vp shoots someone in the face-check
his party (3 years later) still loathes him and would like to forget he was ever president-check
when both sides of the aisle consider a president a failure, you have the worst president ever.
I think you nailed it. And the Cheney slide was quite funny in there!
This got me thinking...I wonder what the best thing GWB did while in office, if there is one.
2 disastrous wars-check
war crimes-check
woeful mismanagement of Katrina disaster-check
unemployment jumps from 4 to 7.5%-check
remember the stock market during bush's tenure, what a fkn disaster that was-check
inherits a budget surplus and leaves with a trillion+ deficit-check
poverty rate for Americans double-check
leaves office with a 22% approval rating-check
his vp shoots someone in the face-check
his party (3 years later) still loathes him and would like to forget he was ever president-check
when both sides of the aisle consider a president a failure, you have the worst president ever.
I think you nailed it. And the Cheney slide was quite funny in there!
This got me thinking...I wonder what the best thing GWB did while in office, if there is one.
Best thing ever for GW? That's easy imo AND there is PJ connection; his most memorable line ever was "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." :fp: :fp:
San Diego Sports Arena - Oct 25, 2000 MGM Grand - Jul 6, 2006 Cox Arena - Jul 7, 2006 New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival - May 1, 2010 Alpine Valley Music Theater - Sep 3-4 2011 Made In America, Philly - Sep 2, 2012 EV, Houston - Nov 12-13, 2012 Dallas-November 2013 OKC-November 2013 ACL 2-October 2014 Fenway Night 1, August 2016 Wrigley, Night 1 August 2018 Fort Worth, Night 1 September 2023 Fort Worth, Night 2 September 2023 Austin, Night 1 September 2023 Austin, Night 2 September 2023
Best thing ever for GW? That's easy imo AND there is PJ connection; his most memorable line ever was "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." :fp: :fp:
Just one of his many gaffs.
Hunter S Thompson summed up this jackass - and the people who voted for him - to a T:
August 01, 2003
Hunter S. Thompson....from his book "Kingdom Of Fear"
Let's face it - the yo-yo president of the U.S.A knows nothing. He is a dunce. He does what he is told to do- says what he is told to say- poses the way he is told to pose. He is a Fool.
This is never an easy thing for the voters of this country to accept.
No. Nonsense. The president cannot be a Fool. Not at this moment in time- when the last living vestiges of the American Dream are on the line. This is not the time to have a bogus rich kid in charge of the White House.
Which is, after all, our house. That is our headquarters- it is where the heart of America lives. So if the president lies and acts giddy about other people's lives- if he wantonly and stupidly endorses mass murder as a logical plan to make sure we are still Number One- he is a Jackass by definition- a loud and meaningless animal with no functional intelligence and no balls.
To say that this goofy child president is looking more and more like Richard Nixon in the summer of 1974 would be a flagrant insult to Nixon.
Whoops! Did I say that? Is it even vaguely possible that some New Age Republican whore-beast of a false president could actually make Richard Nixon look like a Liberal?
The capacity of these vicious assholes we elected to be in charge of our lives for four years to commit terminal damage to our lives and our souls and our loved ones is far beyond Nixon's. Shit! Nixon was the creator of many of the once-proud historical landmarks that these dumb bastards are savagely destroying now: the Clean Air Act of 1970; Campaign Finance Reform; the endangered species act; opening a Real Politik dialogue with China; and on and on.
The prevailing quality of life in America- by any accepted methods of measuring- was inarguably freer and more politically open under Nixon than it is in this evil year of Our Lord 2002.
The Boss was a certified monster who deserved to be impeached and banished. He was a truthless creature of former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover- a foul human monument to corruption and depravity on a scale that dwarfs any other public official in American history. But Nixon was at least smart enough to understand why so many honorable patriotic U.S. citizens despised him. He was a Liar. The truth was not in him.
Nixon believed- as he said many times- that if the president of the United States does it, it can't be illegal. But Nixon never understood the much higher and meaner truth of Bob Dylan's warning that "To live outside the law you must be honest."
The difference between an outlaw and a war criminal is the difference between a pedophile and a Pederast: The pedophile is a person who thinks about sexual behavior with children, and the Pederast does these things. He lays hands on innocent children- he penetrates them and changes their lives forever.
Being the object of a pedophile's warped affections is a Routine feature of growing up in America- and being a victim of a Pederast's crazed "love" is part of dying. Innocence is no longer an option. Once penetrated, the child becomes a Queer in his own mind, and that is not much different than murder.
Richard Nixon crossed that line when he began murdering foreigners in the name of "family values"- and George Bush crossed it when he sneaked into office and began killing brown-skinned children in the name of Jesus and the American people.
When Muhammad Ali declined to be drafted and forced to kill "gooks" in Vietnam he said, "I ain't got nothin' against them Viet Cong. No Cong ever called me Nigger."
I agreed with him, according to my own personal ethics and values. He was Right.
If we all had a dash of Muhammad Ali's eloquent courage, this country and the world would be a better place today because of it.
Okay. That's it for now. Read it and weep.... See you tomorrow, folks. You haven't heard the last of me. I am the one who speaks for the spirit of freedom and decency in you. Shit. Somebody has to do it.
We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world- a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us.... No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you.
Well, shit on that dumbness. George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today- and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever.
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?
They are the same ones who wanted Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are the racists and hate mongers among us- they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss down the throats of these Nazis.
And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck them.
Former Guatemalan dictator convicted of genocide and jailed for 80 years
Efraín Ríos Montt held to account for abuses in campaign that killed an estimated 200,000 and led to 45,000 disappearances
Sibylla Brodzinsky and Jonathan Watts
The Guardian, Friday 10 May 2013
The former Guatemalan dictator Efraín Ríos Montt was convicted of genocide on Friday yesterday after a court found him guilty of crimes against humanity for his role in the slaughter of 1,771 Mayan Ixils in the 1980s. He was sentenced to 80 years in prison.
It is the first time a former head of state has been found guilty of genocide in their own country.
"We are convinced that the acts the Ixil suffered constitute the crime of genocide," said Judge Yazmin Barrios, adding that Ríos Montt "had knowledge of what was happening and did nothing to stop it".
The trial was the first time a former head of government has been held to account in Guatemala for the abuses carried out during a 36-year conflict that killed an estimated 200,000 people and led to 45,000 other "disappearances".
The vast majority of the victims were members of indigenous groups that make up about half of the population.
...Others said the jailing of the 86-year-old was not enough, given the suffering of the victims.
"What I want is for Ríos to feel the pain we felt," said Elena de Paz Santiago, who was 12 when she and her mother fled a massacre in their village in 1982.
They hid in the mountains and survived by eating roots and wild plants for months, before being caught and taken to an army outpost to cook and clean for the soldiers. Her mother died while they were both being gang-raped and was later buried in a mass grave...
Efraín Ríos Montt: Guatemala human rights groups welcome genocide trial
'...Prosecutors said the dictator, who seized power in a coup, unleashed a campaign of slaughter, terror and rape against Maya highland villages which were suspected of backing leftwing guerrillas.
Human rights groups have long accused him of being among the cruellest despots during Latin America's cold war era of US-backed counter-insurgency operations. The Reagan administration armed and supported Ríos Montt, calling him a bulwark against communism.'
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroe ... Montt.html
According to Amnesty International, in just four months there were more than 2,000 fully documented extrajudicial killings by the Guatemalan army: 'People of all ages were not only shot, they were burned alive, hacked to death, disembowelled, drowned, beheaded. Small children were smashed against rocks or bayoneted to death.' The Catholic bishops said: 'Never in our national history has it come to such extremes.' US President Ronald Reagan, visiting Guatemala on a swing through Latin America, hailed Rios Montt as 'totally dedicated to democracy'.
On Dec. 4, 1982, after meeting with Guatemala's dictator, Gen. Efrain Rios Montt, Reagan hailed the general as "totally dedicated to democracy." Reagan declared that Rios Montt's government had been "getting a bum rap."
But the newly declassified U.S. government records reveal that Reagan's praise -- and the embassy analysis -- flew in the face of corroborated accounts from U.S. intelligence.
Based on its own internal documents, the Reagan administration knew that the Guatemalan military indeed was engaged in a scorched-earth campaign against the Mayans.
According to these “secret” cables, the CIA was confirming Guatemalan government massacres in 1981-82 even as Reagan was moving to loosen the military aid ban.
...On Jan. 7, 1983, Reagan lifted the ban on military aid to Guatemala and authorized the sale of $6 million in military hardware. Approval covered spare parts for UH-1H helicopters and A-37 aircraft used in counterinsurgency operations. Radios, batteries and battery charges were also in package.
State Department spokesman John Hughes said political violence in the cities had "declined dramatically" and that rural conditions had improved too.
In February 1983, however, a secret CIA cable noted a rise in "suspect right-wing violence" with kidnappings of students and teachers. Bodies of victims were appearing in ditches and gullies.
CIA sources traced these political murders to Rios Montt's order to the “Archivos” in October to "apprehend, hold, interrogate and dispose of suspected guerrillas as they saw fit."
Despite these grisly facts on the ground, the annual State Department human rights survey praised the supposedly improved human rights situation in Guatemala. "The overall conduct of the armed forces had improved by late in the year" 1982, the report stated.
A different picture -- far closer to the secret information held by the U.S. government -- was coming from independent human rights investigators. On March 17, 1983, Americas Watch representatives condemned the Guatemalan army for human rights atrocities against the Indian population.
New York attorney Stephen L. Kass said these findings included proof that the government carried out "virtually indiscriminate murder of men, women and children of any farm regarded by the army as possibly supportive of guerrilla insurgents."
Rural women suspected of guerrilla sympathies were raped before execution, Kass said. Children were "thrown into burning homes. They are thrown in the air and speared with bayonets.
We heard many, many stories of children being picked up by the ankles and swung against poles so their heads are destroyed." [AP, March 17, 1983]
Publicly, however, senior Reagan officials continued to put on a happy face. On June 12, 1983, special envoy Richard B. Stone praised "positive changes" in Rios Montt's government.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,341
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but there are no polls to support this opinion. You guys are in a small minority. Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and a few others consistently rank lowest.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but there are no polls to support this opinion. You guys are in a small minority. Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and a few others consistently rank lowest.
Funny, but I thought that your goofy, frat-boy President, George W. Bush was undoubtedly the most incompetent President your country has ever had.
I mean, I think it's clear to any reasonable person that Dubya was an idiot. He wasn't a leader. And he just did what he was told - even then, with great difficulty. Didn't he break the record for the least amount of public appearances, and foreign travel, of any President before him in the age of t.v? He was such a complete moron that even his puppet masters were afraid and embarrassed to wheel him out onto the public stage.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,341
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but there are no polls to support this opinion. You guys are in a small minority. Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and a few others consistently rank lowest.
Funny, but I thought that your goofy, frat-boy President, George W. Bush was undoubtedly the most incompetent President your country has ever had.
I mean, I think it's clear to any reasonable person that Dubya was an idiot. He wasn't a leader. And he just did what he was told - even then, with great difficulty. Didn't he break the record for the least amount of public appearances, and foreign travel, of any President before him in the age of t.v? He was such a complete moron that even his puppet masters were afraid and embarrassed to wheel him out onto the public stage.
Yes, personally I would rank Bush the Younger very low on the list. Time will tell. The names that I posted as low on the list are from various polls I looked at. My guess is that in the long run, W. will rank fairly low and Obama somewhere in the middle. My guess is the current negatively inflammatory opinions toward Obama will fade with time.
One thing for sure, most Americans- much of the world for that matter- are still waiting for a leader that inspires. Either that or no leader at all.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
He was not the most charismatic President but we see what charisma does for this country.....why do people have to travel so much since we have the internet now....when Obama travels he is ether on one of his many Vacations or visiting countries to apologize for America....who asked him to go apologize on behalf of the American people? I forgot to mention his campaign travels..
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Yes, personally I would rank Bush the Younger very low on the list. Time will tell. The names that I posted as low on the list are from various polls I looked at. My guess is that in the long run, W. will rank fairly low and Obama somewhere in the middle. My guess is the current negatively inflammatory opinions toward Obama will fade with time.
One thing for sure, most Americans- much of the world for that matter- are still waiting for a leader that inspires. Either that or no leader at all.
I think most Americans expect just one thing from their Presidents: War. If a U.S President doesn't start a war somewhere on foreign soil, then he's considered weak, or uninspiring.
Yes, personally I would rank Bush the Younger very low on the list. Time will tell. The names that I posted as low on the list are from various polls I looked at. My guess is that in the long run, W. will rank fairly low and Obama somewhere in the middle. My guess is the current negatively inflammatory opinions toward Obama will fade with time.
One thing for sure, most Americans- much of the world for that matter- are still waiting for a leader that inspires. Either that or no leader at all.
I think most Americans expect just one thing from their Presidents: War. If a U.S President doesn't start a war somewhere on foreign soil, then he's considered weak, or uninspiring.
I agree, it appears WAR and our presidency go together or you are deemed a push over.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I think most Americans expect just one thing from their Presidents: War. If a U.S President doesn't start a war somewhere on foreign soil, then he's considered weak, or uninspiring.
Really?
Maybe I'm not "most Americans", but that's not my expectation. Where are you getting that from?
From here, I expect anyone who claims they're qualified to lead this country, to do just that.
Be smart, be responsible, no hiding, no excuses, no double-talking, no shots, no strings. No divisiveness.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but there are no polls to support this opinion. You guys are in a small minority. Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and a few others consistently rank lowest.
Comments
Except none of this applies to what occurred in Latin America. These were popular Nationalist movements designed to shift the balance of power and prosperity back to the native population. Calling them Communist does not justify committing genocide against these people.
And as for advocating 'for a system that imprisons or enslaves people to one strict ideology', I've done nothing of the sort.
You are saying that the United States commited mass murder and I am saying that Comminists did the samething. It doesn't make it right but you cant lay the blame on the United States. Is it right to imprison someone because they do not want to give up their home or business? Is it right to execute a person because they dont want their children to be indoctrinated?
I live in South Florida and see Cubans, Nicaraguans, Salvodorians and scores of others that fleed the system that you are defending. I will tell what I also see...I dont see Americans getting on boats and planes fleeing the United States to Cuba, N. Korea or Vietnam because they want to live in a Communist nation.
What mass murder by so-called 'Communists' was committed in Latin America. Please enlighten me.
Would you rather that Cuba had remained an off-shore sweat-shop and casino run by the mafia for U.S interests?
Either way, I think you're confusing what happened in Cuba, with what happened in Guatemala. This thread is about U.S Presidents, and I was simply drawing attention to how Reagan directly supported, defended, trained and funded death squads in Guatemala that committed genocide against the indigenous Mayan population.
Not to mention U.S support for death squads in Nicaragua and El Salvador.
No the United States didnt intervene but many wish that the had. It was my parents country, I was born in the U.S. But the point is if the United States had assisted then things might of been diffrent.
Yeah how did we get into this. I actually said Clinton was the best president.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMRUXOgvyUI
When the Mountains Tremble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzi7g_gi8Ro
(Torrent: http://kat.ph/when-the-mountains-trembl ... 55232.html)
http://skylightpictures.com/films/when_ ... ns_tremble
This new, updated version of the 1983 classic on war and social revolution in Guatemala is a vigorous and persuasive documentary. It describes the struggle of the largely Indian peasantry against a heritage of state and foreign oppression. Centered on the experiences of Rigoberta Menchú, a Quich Indian woman, the film knits a variety of forms--- interviews, direct address, re-enactment, video transmission, and on the spot footage shot at great hazard--- into a wide-ranging and remarkable cohesive epic canvas of the Guatemalan struggle.
Despite the long history of oppression it depicts, the overall effect of the film is exhilarating; with clarity and energy it conveys the birth of a national and political awareness.
"When the Mountains Tremble" was updated and re-released in 1992 when Rigoberta Menchú won the Nobel Peace Prize. The film now includes what happened in Guatemala in the intervening 10 years, and footage of the Nobel ceremony.
"When the Mountains Tremble" was released theatrically in 40 U.S. cities and 30 foreign countries. It was shown on PBS and recieved awards at the Sundance Film Festival (Special Jury Award), the American Film Festival (Blue Ribbon Award), and the Havana Film Festival (Grand Coral Award, Best North American Documentary).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ja ... cide-trial
Guatemalan dictator Efraín Ríos Montt to go on trial for genocide
Ríos Montt accused over deaths of 1,700 people and alleged campaign of rape and torture against leftist insurgents
Guardian.co.uk
27th January 2012
Former Guatemalan dictator Efraín Ríos Montt will face trial on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity as the Central American nation seeks to draw a line under a brutal 36-year civil war.
A judge found sufficient evidence that linked Ríos Montt, who ruled during a particularly bloody period in 1982-83, to the killing of more than 1,700 indigenous people in a crackdown on insurgents.
Turning Points of History - 1954 U.S Coup in Guatemala
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVinMskK9Zw
'In the summer of 1954 the United States toppled the government of Guatemala.
In a war of nerves the elected government of Jacobo Arbenz fell a mere ten days after the war began.
Arbenz's fatal mistake was expropriating land from the American United Fruit Company, and distributing it to landless peasants. For this he was branded a communist, a Soviet agent, and a dangerous enemy to American national security.
It was the CIA's most triumphant covert operation, but it was also the beginning of the end. The CIA-backed coup was the precursor to the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and threw Guatemala into a downward spiral of government-sponsored terror and mass murder.'
The so-called War against Communism had nothing to do with Communism. Just as the so-called 'War on terror' has nothing to do with fighting a war on terror. It's about maintaining U.S global dominance and exploitation of it's client states.
Though fortunately for Latin America, they appear to have now turned the tide.
2 disastrous wars-check
war crimes-check
woeful mismanagement of Katrina disaster-check
unemployment jumps from 4 to 7.5%-check
remember the stock market during bush's tenure, what a fkn disaster that was-check
inherits a budget surplus and leaves with a trillion+ deficit-check
poverty rate for Americans double-check
leaves office with a 22% approval rating-check
his vp shoots someone in the face-check
his party (3 years later) still loathes him and would like to forget he was ever president-check
when both sides of the aisle consider a president a failure, you have the worst president ever.
MGM Grand - Jul 6, 2006
Cox Arena - Jul 7, 2006
New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival - May 1, 2010
Alpine Valley Music Theater - Sep 3-4 2011
Made In America, Philly - Sep 2, 2012
EV, Houston - Nov 12-13, 2012
Dallas-November 2013
OKC-November 2013
ACL 2-October 2014
Fenway Night 1, August 2016
Wrigley, Night 1 August 2018
Fort Worth, Night 1 September 2023
Fort Worth, Night 2 September 2023
Austin, Night 1 September 2023
Austin, Night 2 September 2023
Except that they weren't Communist insurgencies.
Of course he did:
Noam Chomsky - Distorted Morality - http://www.torrentz.com/80741d6bd91bbf9 ... d554ef552f - in which he mentions the fact that the U.S and Israel both voted against a U.N resolution condemning international terrorism in 1987. The U.S then used it's veto and blocked the resolution. The reasons given for their negative votes were that the following paragraphs were unacceptable to them...
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/42/a42r159.htm
General Assembly
94th plenary meeting - 7 December 1987
8. Also urges all States, unilaterally and in co-operation with other
States, as well as relevant United Nations organs, to contribute to the
progressive elimination of the causes underlying international terrorism and
to pay special attention to all situations, including colonialism, racism and
situations involving mass and flagrant violations of human rights and
fundamental freedoms and those involving alien domination and occupation, that may give rise to international terrorism and may endanger international peace and security;
14. Considers that nothing in the present resolution could in any way
prejudice the right to self-determination, freedom and independence, as
derived from the Charter of the United Nations, of peoples forcibly deprived
of that right referred to in the Declaration on Principles of International
Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, particularly peoples under colonial and racist regimes and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial domination, nor, in accordance with the principles of the Charter and in conformity with the above-mentioned Declaration, the right of these peoples to struggle to this end and to seek and receive support;
At the time of this resolution the ANC was regarded by the U.S as a terrorist organization - hence, the following phrase was seen by the U.S as problematic..
'..peoples under colonial and racist regimes..'
..and hence why the following U.N resolutions were all vetoed by the U.S..
1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with apartheid South Africa.
1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.
1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement
1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions. 7 resolutions.
1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.
1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 15 resolutions.
1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.
1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.
1984 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 18 resolutions.
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le2000.htm
Also, the phrase '..and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial
domination...' was understood by everybody to refer to the Israeli occupation of the West bank and Gaza. And so the resolution condemning terrorism was vetoed by the U.S because it would have interfered with U.S terrorist activities in Latin America and it's unconditional military, economic, and diplomatic support for Israeli terrorism in the West Bank and Gaza.
The resolution:
153 - 2 [U.S, Israel] with one abstention (Honduras)
I think you nailed it. And the Cheney slide was quite funny in there!
This got me thinking...I wonder what the best thing GWB did while in office, if there is one.
Best thing ever for GW? That's easy imo AND there is PJ connection; his most memorable line ever was "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." :fp:
MGM Grand - Jul 6, 2006
Cox Arena - Jul 7, 2006
New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival - May 1, 2010
Alpine Valley Music Theater - Sep 3-4 2011
Made In America, Philly - Sep 2, 2012
EV, Houston - Nov 12-13, 2012
Dallas-November 2013
OKC-November 2013
ACL 2-October 2014
Fenway Night 1, August 2016
Wrigley, Night 1 August 2018
Fort Worth, Night 1 September 2023
Fort Worth, Night 2 September 2023
Austin, Night 1 September 2023
Austin, Night 2 September 2023
Just one of his many gaffs.
Hunter S Thompson summed up this jackass - and the people who voted for him - to a T:
August 01, 2003
Hunter S. Thompson....from his book "Kingdom Of Fear"
Let's face it - the yo-yo president of the U.S.A knows nothing. He is a dunce. He does what he is told to do- says what he is told to say- poses the way he is told to pose. He is a Fool.
This is never an easy thing for the voters of this country to accept.
No. Nonsense. The president cannot be a Fool. Not at this moment in time- when the last living vestiges of the American Dream are on the line. This is not the time to have a bogus rich kid in charge of the White House.
Which is, after all, our house. That is our headquarters- it is where the heart of America lives. So if the president lies and acts giddy about other people's lives- if he wantonly and stupidly endorses mass murder as a logical plan to make sure we are still Number One- he is a Jackass by definition- a loud and meaningless animal with no functional intelligence and no balls.
To say that this goofy child president is looking more and more like Richard Nixon in the summer of 1974 would be a flagrant insult to Nixon.
Whoops! Did I say that? Is it even vaguely possible that some New Age Republican whore-beast of a false president could actually make Richard Nixon look like a Liberal?
The capacity of these vicious assholes we elected to be in charge of our lives for four years to commit terminal damage to our lives and our souls and our loved ones is far beyond Nixon's. Shit! Nixon was the creator of many of the once-proud historical landmarks that these dumb bastards are savagely destroying now: the Clean Air Act of 1970; Campaign Finance Reform; the endangered species act; opening a Real Politik dialogue with China; and on and on.
The prevailing quality of life in America- by any accepted methods of measuring- was inarguably freer and more politically open under Nixon than it is in this evil year of Our Lord 2002.
The Boss was a certified monster who deserved to be impeached and banished. He was a truthless creature of former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover- a foul human monument to corruption and depravity on a scale that dwarfs any other public official in American history. But Nixon was at least smart enough to understand why so many honorable patriotic U.S. citizens despised him. He was a Liar. The truth was not in him.
Nixon believed- as he said many times- that if the president of the United States does it, it can't be illegal. But Nixon never understood the much higher and meaner truth of Bob Dylan's warning that "To live outside the law you must be honest."
The difference between an outlaw and a war criminal is the difference between a pedophile and a Pederast: The pedophile is a person who thinks about sexual behavior with children, and the Pederast does these things. He lays hands on innocent children- he penetrates them and changes their lives forever.
Being the object of a pedophile's warped affections is a Routine feature of growing up in America- and being a victim of a Pederast's crazed "love" is part of dying. Innocence is no longer an option. Once penetrated, the child becomes a Queer in his own mind, and that is not much different than murder.
Richard Nixon crossed that line when he began murdering foreigners in the name of "family values"- and George Bush crossed it when he sneaked into office and began killing brown-skinned children in the name of Jesus and the American people.
When Muhammad Ali declined to be drafted and forced to kill "gooks" in Vietnam he said, "I ain't got nothin' against them Viet Cong. No Cong ever called me Nigger."
I agreed with him, according to my own personal ethics and values. He was Right.
If we all had a dash of Muhammad Ali's eloquent courage, this country and the world would be a better place today because of it.
Okay. That's it for now. Read it and weep.... See you tomorrow, folks. You haven't heard the last of me. I am the one who speaks for the spirit of freedom and decency in you. Shit. Somebody has to do it.
We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world- a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us.... No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you.
Well, shit on that dumbness. George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today- and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever.
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?
They are the same ones who wanted Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are the racists and hate mongers among us- they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss down the throats of these Nazis.
And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck them.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ma ... d-genocide
Former Guatemalan dictator convicted of genocide and jailed for 80 years
Efraín Ríos Montt held to account for abuses in campaign that killed an estimated 200,000 and led to 45,000 disappearances
Sibylla Brodzinsky and Jonathan Watts
The Guardian, Friday 10 May 2013
The former Guatemalan dictator Efraín Ríos Montt was convicted of genocide on Friday yesterday after a court found him guilty of crimes against humanity for his role in the slaughter of 1,771 Mayan Ixils in the 1980s. He was sentenced to 80 years in prison.
It is the first time a former head of state has been found guilty of genocide in their own country.
"We are convinced that the acts the Ixil suffered constitute the crime of genocide," said Judge Yazmin Barrios, adding that Ríos Montt "had knowledge of what was happening and did nothing to stop it".
The trial was the first time a former head of government has been held to account in Guatemala for the abuses carried out during a 36-year conflict that killed an estimated 200,000 people and led to 45,000 other "disappearances".
The vast majority of the victims were members of indigenous groups that make up about half of the population.
...Others said the jailing of the 86-year-old was not enough, given the suffering of the victims.
"What I want is for Ríos to feel the pain we felt," said Elena de Paz Santiago, who was 12 when she and her mother fled a massacre in their village in 1982.
They hid in the mountains and survived by eating roots and wild plants for months, before being caught and taken to an army outpost to cook and clean for the soldiers. Her mother died while they were both being gang-raped and was later buried in a mass grave...
............................................................................................................................
From another thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=185389
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ja ... cide-trial
Efraín Ríos Montt: Guatemala human rights groups welcome genocide trial
'...Prosecutors said the dictator, who seized power in a coup, unleashed a campaign of slaughter, terror and rape against Maya highland villages which were suspected of backing leftwing guerrillas.
Human rights groups have long accused him of being among the cruellest despots during Latin America's cold war era of US-backed counter-insurgency operations. The Reagan administration armed and supported Ríos Montt, calling him a bulwark against communism.'
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroe ... Montt.html
According to Amnesty International, in just four months there were more than 2,000 fully documented extrajudicial killings by the Guatemalan army: 'People of all ages were not only shot, they were burned alive, hacked to death, disembowelled, drowned, beheaded. Small children were smashed against rocks or bayoneted to death.' The Catholic bishops said: 'Never in our national history has it come to such extremes.'
US President Ronald Reagan, visiting Guatemala on a swing through Latin America, hailed Rios Montt as 'totally dedicated to democracy'.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/1999/052699a2.html
During a swing through Latin America, Reagan discounted the mounting reports of hundreds of Maya villages being eradicated.
On Dec. 4, 1982, after meeting with Guatemala's dictator, Gen. Efrain Rios Montt, Reagan hailed the general as "totally dedicated to democracy." Reagan declared that Rios Montt's government had been "getting a bum rap."
But the newly declassified U.S. government records reveal that Reagan's praise -- and the embassy analysis -- flew in the face of corroborated accounts from U.S. intelligence.
Based on its own internal documents, the Reagan administration knew that the Guatemalan military indeed was engaged in a scorched-earth campaign against the Mayans.
According to these “secret” cables, the CIA was confirming Guatemalan government massacres in 1981-82 even as Reagan was moving to loosen the military aid ban.
...On Jan. 7, 1983, Reagan lifted the ban on military aid to Guatemala and authorized the sale of $6 million in military hardware. Approval covered spare parts for UH-1H helicopters and A-37 aircraft used in counterinsurgency operations. Radios, batteries and battery charges were also in package.
State Department spokesman John Hughes said political violence in the cities had "declined dramatically" and that rural conditions had improved too.
In February 1983, however, a secret CIA cable noted a rise in "suspect right-wing violence" with kidnappings of students and teachers. Bodies of victims were appearing in ditches and gullies.
CIA sources traced these political murders to Rios Montt's order to the “Archivos” in October to "apprehend, hold, interrogate and dispose of suspected guerrillas as they saw fit."
Despite these grisly facts on the ground, the annual State Department human rights survey praised the supposedly improved human rights situation in Guatemala. "The overall conduct of the armed forces had improved by late in the year" 1982, the report stated.
A different picture -- far closer to the secret information held by the U.S. government -- was coming from independent human rights investigators. On March 17, 1983, Americas Watch representatives condemned the Guatemalan army for human rights atrocities against the Indian population.
New York attorney Stephen L. Kass said these findings included proof that the government carried out "virtually indiscriminate murder of men, women and children of any farm regarded by the army as possibly supportive of guerrilla insurgents."
Rural women suspected of guerrilla sympathies were raped before execution, Kass said. Children were "thrown into burning homes. They are thrown in the air and speared with bayonets.
We heard many, many stories of children being picked up by the ankles and swung against poles so their heads are destroyed." [AP, March 17, 1983]
Publicly, however, senior Reagan officials continued to put on a happy face. On June 12, 1983, special envoy Richard B. Stone praised "positive changes" in Rios Montt's government.
Best: Edward Gelamn
best....still up for debate.
Godfather.
WTF :wtf:
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but there are no polls to support this opinion. You guys are in a small minority. Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler and a few others consistently rank lowest.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Lincoln
Fdr
JFK
teddy Roosevelt
Washington
Honorable mention: Jefferson
Worst:
James Buchanan
Herbert Hoover
Carter
George w bush
Lbj
Funny, but I thought that your goofy, frat-boy President, George W. Bush was undoubtedly the most incompetent President your country has ever had.
I mean, I think it's clear to any reasonable person that Dubya was an idiot. He wasn't a leader. And he just did what he was told - even then, with great difficulty. Didn't he break the record for the least amount of public appearances, and foreign travel, of any President before him in the age of t.v? He was such a complete moron that even his puppet masters were afraid and embarrassed to wheel him out onto the public stage.
Yes, personally I would rank Bush the Younger very low on the list. Time will tell. The names that I posted as low on the list are from various polls I looked at. My guess is that in the long run, W. will rank fairly low and Obama somewhere in the middle. My guess is the current negatively inflammatory opinions toward Obama will fade with time.
One thing for sure, most Americans- much of the world for that matter- are still waiting for a leader that inspires. Either that or no leader at all.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I think most Americans expect just one thing from their Presidents: War. If a U.S President doesn't start a war somewhere on foreign soil, then he's considered weak, or uninspiring.
And Jesus wept.
I agree, it appears WAR and our presidency go together or you are deemed a push over.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Maybe I'm not "most Americans", but that's not my expectation. Where are you getting that from?
From here, I expect anyone who claims they're qualified to lead this country, to do just that.
Be smart, be responsible, no hiding, no excuses, no double-talking, no shots, no strings. No divisiveness.
Follow through with the promises made.
Party affiliation means shit to me.
DO YOUR FUCKING JOB, AND DO IT WELL.
Maybe with some integrity too.
So tough to accomplish?
all long before my time,I was thinking in my era.
Godfather.