Rutgers student gets 30-day jail sentence in hate crime case

Blockhead

pandora wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

pandora wrote:

Throw a pebble in a pond you get ripples.

As the hours passed, 48, it is very obvious that the humiliation,
shame and banishment from what Ravi did escalated.

Can one imagine the whispers?
Can one imagine the giggles? the looks, the stares?
Can one imagine the call out and fall out in the hours following?

Can we feel how alone Tyler must have felt?
Can we feel how he was made a terrible joke?
Can we feel the world he left?

It's the world Ravi created for Tyler when he made him his victim.

LOL... Come on now...
How are you measuring these "ripples"
Why is the last action/event more important than something that maybe happened earlier in his life, or growing up.
You can't point to one moment in time and blame those actions/event on a decision YOU make, this happened to be an irreversible decision HE made, no one made this decision but him...
People don't just flip a switch and commit suicide, Its usually something they have battled for a long time...
The only victim here is Tylers family...

No evidence of that, no prior suicide attempts or threats and considering his age
it is quite possible it was a gut reaction to becoming Ravi's victim, in my opinion.

I am sure his world looked very bleak after being victimized. Everywhere he turned
was talk of him and his sexuality.

It is important to try to stand in the child's shoes and feel what he was feeling
to understand. If anyone cares to.

As far as his family they are not forgiving Ravi ... they know he was the trigger.

So are you saying that the last person who inflicted those hurt feelings/sadness/depression on you are responsible for your suicide?

pandora

Jason P wrote:

pandora wrote:

No evidence of that, no prior suicide attempts or threats and considering his age
it is quite possible it was a gut reaction to becoming Ravi's victim, in my opinion.

I am sure his world looked very bleak after being victimized. Everywhere he turned
was talk of him and his sexuality.

It is important to try to stand in the child's shoes and feel what he was feeling
to understand. If anyone cares to.

As far as his family they are not forgiving Ravi ... they know he was the trigger.

There is no evidence of anything you speak of either. :fp:

In my opinion common sense sees the direct connection / action reaction...
a group of events put into motion by Ravi victimizing Tyler.

Again the gauge of severity of bullying is the reaction of the victim
being made by the bully.

pandora

Blockhead wrote:

So are you saying that the last person who inflicted those hurt feelings/sadness/depression on you are responsible for your suicide?

Ravi committed a premeditated crime, through doing this he put in motion events that lead
to Tyler wanting to leave this world.

This is what I am saying.

I think your description should include but not be limited to...
humiliation, embarrassment, banishment, ostracization....
these much different than sadness, hurt feelings and depression, they are worlds apart.
Life and death different worlds.

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

As I said the gauge to the severity of bullying lies in the reaction of the victim made
by the bully.

I think this is very unfair Pandora. People react differently to things and its impossible to know a persons state of mind before or leading up to a suicide if they havent discussed their problems with a parent, relative, or professional. Many, many kids live lives very depressed and confused without anyone knowing about it. Something as small as shaving this kids head in his sleep (something that was done to me once) might have set him off, resulting in his suicide. It could've just been the thing to push him over the edge -- none of us knows whether or not he was stable prior to this.

I recall hearing somewhere that Tyler came out just before leaving for college and his mother was very disapproving of the fact that he was gay. That might have caused some problems for the boy. I simply irresponsible to say that Ravi's actions were the ONLY reason Tyler is dead. Its impossible to know for sure.

pandora

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

As I said the gauge to the severity of bullying lies in the reaction of the victim made
by the bully.

I think this is very unfair Pandora. People react differently to things and its impossible to know a persons state of mind before or leading up to a suicide if they havent discussed their problems with a parent, relative, or professional. Many, many kids live lives very depressed and confused without anyone knowing about it. Something as small as shaving this kids head in his sleep (something that was done to me once) might have set him off, resulting in his suicide. It could've just been the thing to push him over the edge -- none of us knows whether or not he was stable prior to this.

I recall hearing somewhere that Tyler came out just before leaving for college and his mother was very disapproving of the fact that he was gay. That might have caused some problems for the boy. I simply irresponsible to say that Ravi's actions were the ONLY reason Tyler is dead. Its impossible to know for sure.

I don't think I ever said only :?
Ravi's illegal victimizing was a direct cause for Tyler needing and wanting to leave this world,
in my opinion.

When a bully makes a victim they are changing that person's world forever.

We are accountable,responsible, all connected and can not know how someone will react
to being victimized. A very good reason why no one should victimize another.
Ravi made a choice to to do so with grave consequences.

Blockhead

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

As I said the gauge to the severity of bullying lies in the reaction of the victim made
by the bully.

I think this is very unfair Pandora. People react differently to things and its impossible to know a persons state of mind before or leading up to a suicide if they havent discussed their problems with a parent, relative, or professional. Many, many kids live lives very depressed and confused without anyone knowing about it. Something as small as shaving this kids head in his sleep (something that was done to me once) might have set him off, resulting in his suicide. It could've just been the thing to push him over the edge -- none of us knows whether or not he was stable prior to this.

I recall hearing somewhere that Tyler came out just before leaving for college and his mother was very disapproving of the fact that he was gay. That might have caused some problems for the boy. I simply irresponsible to say that Ravi's actions were the ONLY reason Tyler is dead. Its impossible to know for sure.

I don't think I ever said only :?
Ravi's illegal victimizing was a direct cause for Tyler needing and wanting to leave this world,
in my opinion.

When a bully makes a victim they are changing that person's world forever.

We are accountable,responsible, all connected and can not know how someone will react
to being victimized. A very good reason why no one should victimize another.
Ravi made a choice to to do so with grave consequences.

So a wife cheats on her husband, which causes the husband to kill their kids and himself, your saying the wife (bully) who victimized her husband is responsible for the children and husbands deaths? :roll:
You state in your 2nd last sentence "we are all accountable,responsible"
Yet you blame a guy killing him self, on someone else...
Your just justifying every single bad decision ever made...
This is the kind of thinking children have... "he made me do it"

inmytree

interesting topic....

for me, the dick who webcast his roomie set something in motion, therefore should suffer the consequences of his actions....

who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen...fact is, the victim of a crime is dead and it happened shortly after the incident...call it bad timing if you want, the law has spoken and the fucker is going to clink for 30....I guess if he would have left his roommate alone, we wouldn't be discussing this...

I hope he enjoys his 30 days...


as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...

JonnyPistachio

inmytree wrote:

as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...

I think its pretty safe to say that everyone here despises what Ravi did and wish the whole scenario never happened. I don't see anyone defending his actions. I think some are simply saying that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime that he was convicted of because you cant speculate how someone will react to a crime, and that's how the law and the courts saw it too.

You said it yourself:

inmytree wrote:

who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen.

pandora

Blockhead wrote:

So a wife cheats on her husband, which causes the husband to kill their kids and himself, your saying the wife (bully) who victimized her husband is responsible for the children and husbands deaths? :roll:
You state in your 2nd last sentence "we are all accountable,responsible"
Yet you blame a guy killing him self, on someone else...
Your just justifying every single bad decision ever made...
This is the kind of thinking children have... "he made me do it"

So we think cheating is now a crime? :?

Ravi committed a calculated premeditated crime on a another person which resulted
in that person taking their life. He set in motion events to cause public
humiliation, he made Tyler his victim by public bullying.

I would have to say your analogy just doesn't fit.
Why do you suppose the wife cheated?
Being in a highly personal relationship with vows made to each other.
Do you think she will be without guilt?
You bring in the loss of life of the children not a suicide so who's the real bully
here ... the husband I would think. He committed murder! :fp:

And yes we are all connected responsible to each other.
Ravi did not feel this when he made a victim of Tyler, he felt something entirely different,
something pretty ugly. It is this motive of his that I address.

inmytree

JonnyPistachio wrote:

inmytree wrote:

as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...

I don't see anyone defending his actions. I think some are simply saying that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime that he was convicted of because you cant speculate how someone will react to a crime, and that's how the law and the courts saw it too.

I think its pretty safe to say that everyone here despises what Ravi did and wish the whole scenario never happened.

You said it yourself:

inmytree wrote:

who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen.

by saying "that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime" sounds like you're giving Ravi a pass....at least to me...

fact is the kid is dead...fact is Ravi did something shortly before the kid died...for me that's enough facts....for you, I guess not...and that's ok with me... but no one is going to convince me that Ravi didn't have a part to play in this fella's death...

I wish I could say "I bet you my next paycheck that this kid would still be alive if Ravi hadn't secretly broadcast him and is consenting lover"...sadly, we will never know...you know, because the kid is dead...

JonnyPistachio

inmytree wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

inmytree wrote:

as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...

I don't see anyone defending his actions. I think some are simply saying that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime that he was convicted of because you cant speculate how someone will react to a crime, and that's how the law and the courts saw it too.

I think its pretty safe to say that everyone here despises what Ravi did and wish the whole scenario never happened.

You said it yourself:

inmytree wrote:

who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen.

by saying "that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime" sounds like you're giving Ravi a pass....at least to me...

fact is the kid is dead...fact is Ravi did something shortly before the kid died...for me that's enough facts....for you, I guess not...and that's ok with me... but no one is going to convince me otherwise...

I wish I could say "I bet you my next paycheck that this kid would still be alive if Ravi hadn't secretly broadcast him and is consenting lover"...sadly, we will never know...you know, because the kid is dead...

I agree with you that its extremely likely that Ravi's actions led to this suicide, but my point is that you cannot prove this kind of thing in a court of law. Its simply impossible. I'm not giving the guy a pass. I think he should serve a heavier sentence for his crime. But I dont think a person can be held accountable for something that happens days later -- it sets a precedent..What if the suicide happened two weeks later? Would it still be Ravi's fault? if you can convict someone based on someones reaction days, weeks, or even months later, people will be falsely convicted all over the place.

I think severity/punishment of bullying and the actual hate crimes should be considered the problem here.

pandora

JonnyPistachio wrote:

inmytree wrote:

as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...

I don't see anyone defending his actions. I think some are simply saying that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime that he was convicted of because you cant speculate how someone will react to a crime, and that's how the law and the courts saw it too.

I think its pretty safe to say that everyone here despises what Ravi did and wish the whole scenario never happened.

You said it yourself:

inmytree wrote:

who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen.

Why would we assume he would be dead? I assume just the opposite.
He was a vibrant talented young man beginning his life.


And if another case and another case and another case of cyber bullying results in death
will we then think oh well maybe just maybe it is the bullying that is causing
people to want to leave this world.

We all know what bullying does to a child, others have hung themselves
taken pills, driven cars into trees ...
it is no different here yet some want to argue
it is not proof enough that the hell the bully made caused the victim
to want to die.
It may not be proof enough in a courtroom as of yet but we all know
what bully's do and what they cause.

Blockhead

inmytree wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

inmytree wrote:

as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...

I don't see anyone defending his actions. I think some are simply saying that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime that he was convicted of because you cant speculate how someone will react to a crime, and that's how the law and the courts saw it too.

I think its pretty safe to say that everyone here despises what Ravi did and wish the whole scenario never happened.

You said it yourself:

inmytree wrote:

who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen.

by saying "that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime" sounds like you're giving Ravi a pass....at least to me...

fact is the kid is dead...fact is Ravi did something shortly before the kid died...for me that's enough facts....for you, I guess not...and that's ok with me... but no one is going to convince me that Ravi didn't have a part to play in this fella's death...

I wish I could say "I bet you my next paycheck that this kid would still be alive if Ravi hadn't secretly broadcast him and is consenting lover"...sadly, we will never know...you know, because the kid is dead...

You people are making this to confusing.
Ravi, nor his actions killed this kid...
Tyler killed himself, no one forced him...

MayDay10

Suicide is a pretty extreme solution. The most extreme.

inmytree

Blockhead wrote:

You people are making this to confusing.
Ravi, nor his actions killed this kid...
Tyler killed himself, no one forced him...

I say Ravi's actions played a part in Tyler's death....

you say otherwise....

sounds like we disagree....hope that's ok...

inmytree

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I agree with you that its extremely likely that Ravi's actions led to this suicide, but my point is that you cannot prove this kind of thing in a court of law. Its simply impossible. I'm not giving the guy a pass. I think he should serve a heavier sentence for his crime. But I dont think a person can be held accountable for something that happens days later -- it sets a precedent..What if the suicide happened two weeks later? Would it still be Ravi's fault? if you can convict someone based on someones reaction days, weeks, or even months later, people will be falsely convicted all over the place.

I think severity/punishment of bullying and the actual hate crimes should be considered the problem here.

I wish I could answer your questions...but I can't...no one can...

I understand your concerns for precedent...but I'm concerned about this case and that's what I'm basing my opinion on...

I know I keep going back to this....if Ravi had not done what he did...would be talking about this....? I'm pretty sure the answer would be "no"...

as I see it, he pushed Tyler over the edge....he provided the final straw...he should spend some time in jail....

Blockhead

inmytree wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

You people are making this to confusing.
Ravi, nor his actions killed this kid...
Tyler killed himself, no one forced him...

I say Ravi's actions played a part in Tyler's death....

you say otherwise....

sounds like we disagree....hope that's ok...

Sure, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility that anything you say to someone, you are inevitably responsible for their following actions, and if their action turns out to be suicide, then you my friend are responsible for their death...

inmytree

Blockhead wrote:

inmytree wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

You people are making this to confusing.
Ravi, nor his actions killed this kid...
Tyler killed himself, no one forced him...

I say Ravi's actions played a part in Tyler's death....

you say otherwise....

sounds like we disagree....hope that's ok...

Sure, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility that anything you say to someone, you are inevitably responsible for their following actions, and if their action turns out to be suicide, then you my friend are responsible for their death...

now we have rules to follow if we disagree...that's weird....

anyway....Ravi didn't "say" anything....he "did" something....do you understand the difference...?

Blockhead

inmytree wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I agree with you that its extremely likely that Ravi's actions led to this suicide, but my point is that you cannot prove this kind of thing in a court of law. Its simply impossible. I'm not giving the guy a pass. I think he should serve a heavier sentence for his crime. But I dont think a person can be held accountable for something that happens days later -- it sets a precedent..What if the suicide happened two weeks later? Would it still be Ravi's fault? if you can convict someone based on someones reaction days, weeks, or even months later, people will be falsely convicted all over the place.

I think severity/punishment of bullying and the actual hate crimes should be considered the problem here.

I wish I could answer your questions...but I can't...no one can...

I understand your concerns for precedent...but I'm concerned about this case and that's what I'm basing my opinion on...

I know I keep going back to this....if Ravi had not done what he did...would be talking about this....? I'm pretty sure the answer would be "no"...

as I see it, he pushed Tyler over the edge....he provided the final straw...he should spend some time in jail....

How are you measuring these straws? why is one more important than the other?
You shouldn't try so hard to justify somone committing suicide...

Blockhead

inmytree wrote:

Sure, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility that anything you say to someone, you are inevitably responsible for their following actions, and if their action turns out to be suicide, then you my friend are responsible for their death...

now we have rules to follow if we disagree...that's weird....

anyway....Ravi didn't "say" anything....he "did" something....do you understand the difference...?[/quote]
No rules, just trying to figure out why your trying to blame people when someone decides to KILL THEMSELF.
Seems like its pretty simple to understand.
I guess I'll just blame everything I do, on someone else...
I'll say it again, this is how kids reason - "he made me do it"
At what point are you not responsible for your OWN ACTIONS, especially KILLING YOURSELF

Sure, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility that anything you DO to someone, you are inevitably responsible for their following actions, and if their action turns out to be suicide, then you my friend are responsible for their death...