Are you saying that a sentence for a criminal act should be harsher depending on the actions taken by the victim after the criminal act?
in my opinion yes ... in the process of a criminal act if said victim then is injured
or dies as a direct result of that original crime it should be considered for a harsher punishment.
Say a bank robber who frightens a person to the degree that they run out of the bank
into the parking lot and is then struck by a car and killed.
Their death a direct result of the original crime and should be considered
when sentencing the bank robber. It was his direct actions that caused the death
of an innocent person.
I would agree in the example you stated as that seems to be happening in the course of the criminal act itself. I have a little more difficulty directly correlating a crime of spying to a suicide a few days later (and yes - I realized it was likely a big factor).
I guess what I wonder is how long after the act is it appropriate to take the victim's subsequent actions into account when determining the penalty to be imposed? What if he had chosen to not take his own life until a year later.
Also, I struggle with the idea that - if he hadn't killed himself - the sentence would potentially be lighter for the SAME criminal activity.
If
He took his life as a direct result of what Dharun Ravi did to him that can not be argued.
Time here irrelevant because it was what? days later
and a direct result of the backlash from what
Dharun Ravi did that caused him to take his life.
If he had't taken his life I would still not be ok with 30 days.
Because of the nature of the crime
and torment the victim was forced to endure.
But 30 days for the loss of this boys life, the anguish his family are living,
is a slap in the face ... absolutely no justice.
I would like to see him deported most especially since he has never completed
the requirements to stay in our country.
"Ravi, who was born in India, could face deportation over his conviction
because he never completed requirements to obtain US citizenship
despite spending most of his life in America."
i think the guilt this guy lives with for the rest of his life is punishment enough, imo.
What if he is unfeeling who only cares about his own well being?
this actually has been pointed out by his subsequent actions by others involved.
What about the countless other people who are or will do the same
thoughtless things to hurt others?
Shouldn't society require more than personal guilt?
Shouldn't we require a punishment fit for the crime to deter others?
Or will we continue to think of the perpetrators and not the victims
out of the convenience that they no longer walk the earth.
What do you have in mind? i mean i look at it like this, either he's feels guilty as all hell or he doesnt, nothing is going to change that, so what's appropriate punishment?
i think the guilt this guy lives with for the rest of his life is punishment enough, imo.
What if he is unfeeling who only cares about his own well being?
this actually has been pointed out by his subsequent actions by others involved.
What about the countless other people who are or will do the same
thoughtless things to hurt others?
Shouldn't society require more than personal guilt?
Shouldn't we require a punishment fit for the crime to deter others?
Or will we continue to think of the perpetrators and not the victims
out of the convenience that they no longer walk the earth.
What do you have in mind? i mean i look at it like this, either he's feels guilty as all hell or he doesnt, nothing is going to change that, so what's appropriate punishment?
As someone else mentioned 5 years, that seems appropriate to me also.
Whether the sentence would be without parole options before that, perhaps not.
In this case he could be eligible for deportation also.
Cyber bullying should be taken seriously in all cases but especially those resulting in a death.
And yes it was a hate crime against gay people and he should have been more seriously
punished for that also.
This punishment was so incredibly weak it speaks volumes about victims rights.
He took his life as a direct result of what Dharun Ravi did to him that can not be argued.
It doesn't have to be argued because the suicide is irrelevant in this court case. I'm not saying it is irrelevant itself, but it was not part of this case (even though the outrage from the suicide spurred prosecutor to try him for a hate crime).
He took his life as a direct result of what Dharun Ravi did to him that can not be argued.
It doesn't have to be argued because the suicide is irrelevant in this court case. I'm not saying it is irrelevant itself, but it was not part of this case (even though the outrage from the suicide spurred prosecutor to try him for a hate crime).
yes I do know this
what I did mean was that the poster or anyone can't argue as to the specifics of what happened
and why, in my opinion. That the actions of one a direct reaction of another.
Not arguing in a court of law ... arguing.
He took his life as a direct result of what Dharun Ravi did to him that can not be argued.
It doesn't have to be argued because the suicide is irrelevant in this court case. I'm not saying it is irrelevant itself, but it was not part of this case (even though the outrage from the suicide spurred prosecutor to try him for a hate crime).
yes I do know this
what I did mean was that the poster or anyone can't argue as to the specifics of what happened
and why, in my opinion. That the actions of one a direct reaction of another.
Not arguing in a court of law ... arguing.
We don't know if he was a really happy person and this caused him to jump or if he was a really unhappy person and this caused him to jump. Or if he was somewhere in between.
When I was in Seattle, there was a bridge-jumper holding up traffic while the cops tried to talk her down. Some asshole in his car, fed up with being stuck in traffic, told her to just get it over with and jump ... and she did. Luckily, she some how survived a 100 foot fall into the water below. If she died, would the insensitive a-hole that told her to jump deserve to spend five years in jail?
We don't know if he was a really happy person and this caused him to jump or if he was a really unhappy person and this caused him to jump. Or if he was somewhere in between.
When I was in Seattle, there was a bridge-jumper holding up traffic while the cops tried to talk her down. Some asshole in his car, fed up with being stuck in traffic, told her to just get it over with and jump ... and she did. Luckily, she some how survived a 100 foot fall into the water below. If she died, would the insensitive a-hole that told her to jump deserve to spend five years in jail?
That ass told her to jump did not cause her to jump.
It is clear there are cause and effect, there are action reaction...
We all know what happened here. We know a crime was committed and a life was taken because
of that crime. Pretty simple.
It is clear there are cause and effect, there are action reaction...
We all know what happened here. We know a crime was committed and a life was taken because
of that crime. Pretty simple.
If it is that clear and simple, why didn't the prosecutors go after murder charges?
It is clear there are cause and effect, there are action reaction...
We all know what happened here. We know a crime was committed and a life was taken because
of that crime. Pretty simple.
But that might not have been the SOLE reason that he committed suicide, though. We really do not know.
While it's pretty obvious the criminal act likely had lots to do with it, there could have been other factors.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I want to ask the question again: If it was a college student spying on his heterosexual roommate and partner, would 30 days seem like not enough, just right, or too much?
I would add that if he had spied on a heterosexual roommate and partner and one of them subsequently committed suicide, I think the case would cause just as much outrage.
Whether the sentence is fair or not, I can't really say. As others have pointed out, it's not illegal to be an asshole.
Are you saying that a sentence for a criminal act should be harsher depending on the actions taken by the victim after the criminal act?
I said that the outrage would have been the same.
And once again, I don't know what would have been a fair sentence. I think this guy sounds like an immature, insensitive douche, none of which is against the law.
Had the roommate not committed suicide, I think there's a good chance there wouldn't have been any criminal charges. The young man who died had requested a change of roommates. He might have just made the change and let the matter drop rather than draw any more attention to it. There's no way to know.
It is clear there are cause and effect, there are action reaction...
We all know what happened here. We know a crime was committed and a life was taken because
of that crime. Pretty simple.
I don't think Ravi should be held responsible for another individual's actions (even though Ravi is a piece of shit).
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
And once again, I don't know what would have been a fair sentence. I think this guy sounds like an immature, insensitive douche, none of which is against the law.
Had the roommate not committed suicide, I think there's a good chance there wouldn't have been any criminal charges. The young man who died had requested a change of roommates. He might have just made the change and let the matter drop rather than draw any more attention to it. There's no way to know.
Yeah - I know you said the outrage would have been the same, so I was asking if that translated to the sentence.
And I suspect the outrage would not have been the same, but I really I do not know.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I believe harsher charges should have been sought along with a hasher penalty.
The social media can quickly bring embarrassment, shame, life changing events for victims.
This is a new weapon to weld for bullies. It is handing them power to destroy other peoples lives.
Infringing on the right to personal privacy must be punished and for me 30 days
is not a punishment it is a joke.
Tyler Clementi was born in 1991, he was a talented violinist with his whole life ahead of him.
I believe harsher charges should have been sought along with a hasher penalty.
The social media can quickly bring embarrassment, shame, life changing events for victims.
This is a new weapon to weld for bullies. It is handing them power to destroy other peoples lives.
Infringing on the right to personal privacy must be punished and for me 30 days
is not a punishment it is a joke.
Tyler Clementi was born in 1991, he was a talented violinist with his whole life ahead of him.
And HE decided to throw that life away.
Ravi can't be held responsible for that.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I believe harsher charges should have been sought along with a hasher penalty.
The social media can quickly bring embarrassment, shame, life changing events for victims.
This is a new weapon to weld for bullies. It is handing them power to destroy other peoples lives.
Infringing on the right to personal privacy must be punished and for me 30 days
is not a punishment it is a joke.
Tyler Clementi was born in 1991, he was a talented violinist with his whole life ahead of him.
What if Ravi had crumbled under the attacks that the nation unleashed upon him with social media before little facts were known and shot himself?
I believe harsher charges should have been sought along with a hasher penalty.
The social media can quickly bring embarrassment, shame, life changing events for victims.
This is a new weapon to weld for bullies. It is handing them power to destroy other peoples lives.
Infringing on the right to personal privacy must be punished and for me 30 days
is not a punishment it is a joke.
Tyler Clementi was born in 1991, he was a talented violinist with his whole life ahead of him.
And HE decided to throw that life away.
Ravi can't be held responsible for that.
Of course he can ...
If you expect Tyler to take responsibility we must have Ravi do the same for his part of this
crime and the events he set in motion.
If we do not we give all bullies the right of way to victimize, to cause anguish, to destroy lives
and to condone this by saying the victim should have been stronger.
Victims have basic rights ... the right to live their lives and not be victimized!
Tyler had the right to privacy, the right to love whom he wanted without being chastised.
Ravi caused the anguish that caused Tyler to take his life ...
no different than a bank robber who causes someone to run in front of a car,
they both indirectly took a life while committing a crime.
I believe harsher charges should have been sought along with a hasher penalty.
The social media can quickly bring embarrassment, shame, life changing events for victims.
This is a new weapon to weld for bullies. It is handing them power to destroy other peoples lives.
Infringing on the right to personal privacy must be punished and for me 30 days
is not a punishment it is a joke.
Tyler Clementi was born in 1991, he was a talented violinist with his whole life ahead of him.
What if Ravi had crumbled under the attacks that the nation unleashed upon him with social media before little facts were known and shot himself?
Of course he can ...
If you expect Tyler to take responsibility we must have Ravi do the same for his part of this
crime and the events he set in motion.
If we do not we give all bullies the right of way to victimize, to cause anguish, to destroy lives
and to condone this by saying the victim should have been stronger.
Victims have basic rights ... the right to live their lives and not be victimized!
Tyler had the right to privacy, the right to love whom he wanted without being chastised.
Ravi caused the anguish that caused Tyler to take his life ...
no different than a bank robber who causes someone to run in front of a car,
they both indirectly took a life while committing a crime.
And Ravi broke that, and was charged and convicted for it. He didn't take a life while committing a crime, Ravi died far after the incident occurred.
Personal responsibility is important.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Of course he can ...
If you expect Tyler to take responsibility we must have Ravi do the same for his part of this
crime and the events he set in motion.
If we do not we give all bullies the right of way to victimize, to cause anguish, to destroy lives
and to condone this by saying the victim should have been stronger.
Victims have basic rights ... the right to live their lives and not be victimized!
Tyler had the right to privacy, the right to love whom he wanted without being chastised.
Ravi caused the anguish that caused Tyler to take his life ...
no different than a bank robber who causes someone to run in front of a car,
they both indirectly took a life while committing a crime.
And Ravi broke that, and was charged and convicted for it. He didn't take a life while committing a crime, Ravi died far after the incident occurred.
Personal responsibility is important.
I disagree a life is gone as direct consequence to his crime and should be considered
in punishment. Ravi is directly responsible for the loss of life by bullying and tormenting
while committing the crime of compromising another's basic personal right to privacy.
This as in a woman is brutally victimized and commits suicide days later, in my opinion
this should weigh heavily on the rapist and directly affect his punishment and guilt,
death as a result of a crime upon another.
Taking ones own life is the height of being victimized in these cases and the victimizers
should take responsibility in their part and be punished more harshly as contributing
to the loss of life.
This December 19th Tyler would be celebrating his 21st birthday, he is not because Ravi
victimized him, making his life a horrible hell in which to be.
Does anyone know how this feels?
I imagine a heart broken, a spirit broken.
I've stated how I feel about this horrible crime and injustice,
my heart and spirit is with this young man, the victim...
Tyler Clementi ...
it is a terrible senseless loss.
Of course he can ...
If you expect Tyler to take responsibility we must have Ravi do the same for his part of this
crime and the events he set in motion.
If we do not we give all bullies the right of way to victimize, to cause anguish, to destroy lives
and to condone this by saying the victim should have been stronger.
Victims have basic rights ... the right to live their lives and not be victimized!
Tyler had the right to privacy, the right to love whom he wanted without being chastised.
Ravi caused the anguish that caused Tyler to take his life ...
no different than a bank robber who causes someone to run in front of a car,
they both indirectly took a life while committing a crime.
And Ravi broke that, and was charged and convicted for it. He didn't take a life while committing a crime, Tyler died far after the incident occurred.
Personal responsibility is important.
As Ravi was not present he cannot be considered to be DIRAECTLY responsible.
In addition, as I understand it, Tyler had only just recently came out . So , I believe it would be safe to assume he wasnt fully comfortable just yet with being out.
Ravi , I think was more the straw that broke the camels back.
Douchebag behaviour? Yes. Learned at home? probably. Heard on NPR last week about how homosexuality is seen as an abomination in India. So , learned attitudes strikes again.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Of course he can ...
If you expect Tyler to take responsibility we must have Ravi do the same for his part of this
crime and the events he set in motion.
If we do not we give all bullies the right of way to victimize, to cause anguish, to destroy lives
and to condone this by saying the victim should have been stronger.
Victims have basic rights ... the right to live their lives and not be victimized!
Tyler had the right to privacy, the right to love whom he wanted without being chastised.
Ravi caused the anguish that caused Tyler to take his life ...
no different than a bank robber who causes someone to run in front of a car,
they both indirectly took a life while committing a crime.
And Ravi broke that, and was charged and convicted for it. He didn't take a life while committing a crime, Tyler died far after the incident occurred.
Personal responsibility is important.
As Ravi was not present he cannot be considered to be DIRAECTLY responsible.
.
And this is why I don't think he should be charged.
Like I said, I think he's an ass, and his behaviour is inexcusable, but I think one should only be charged with the crime they commit, and not the subsequent events.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I speak of personal responsibilities, not necessarily the law,
justice was not had here.
We all make choices everyday, we set in motion events for others based on these choices,
good and bad even life and death. Nothing is random in that we are all connected,
the choice you make today will be my affect tomorrow.
The law is to protect against the ignorant that know not what they do or do not care
how they affect others.
We all agree Ravi's actions were immoral with him being called here many derogatory names.
Where our opinions differ is if he should be held responsible for the action
Tyler took as a result of the abuse.
A couple of things influence my thinking, that is the new age of cyber bullying
and the fact our right to privacy is being eroded in the social networks,
some by personal choice, some we see, as in this case, not at all by choice,
with grave consequences.
This case is setting a precedence for future similar crime in the court room.
The analogies of other crime scenarios I have given, show my opinion
on our moral and legal responsibilities when we commit a crime
that is further complicated by events set in motion by the original crime.
The two are greatly linked...
to create a victim with bullying then cause that victim to take action
because of the abuse is entirely on the bully.
Direct cause and effect.
We have seen the horrendous actions of children being bullied a lifetime
who then strike back at society. This snapping of the brain a direct result
of constant abuse. We also see parents who abuse and bully and the consequences
for the young brain there.
It is a likely presumption to assume if Tyler had never been a victim of Ravi
he would be playing his violin as we speak. A happy young man who had come to terms
with who he was but whom fell prey to horrible peer abuse and subsequent shame.
In my opinion Ravi should have been given a much stiffer penalty
entirely based on the loss of life. There would lay the justice for the family
and the life lost.
Discuss the topic, not the people discussing the topic. No personal comments. Look your comments over before hitting Submit and be sure you're debating THE TOPIC.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
We all make choices everyday, we set in motion events for others based on these choices, good and bad even life and death. Nothing is random in that we are all connected,
the choice you make today will be my affect tomorrow.
I love this. This is the same argument I always try to make when people claim that personal drug use doesn't affect anyone else.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
We all make choices everyday, we set in motion events for others based on these choices, good and bad even life and death. Nothing is random in that we are all connected,
the choice you make today will be my affect tomorrow.
I love this. This is the same argument I always try to make when people claim that personal drug use doesn't affect anyone else.
it is us living life in my opinion
we are responsible not only for ourselves but to each other,
yes that includes what you mention here.
oh and now that youve brought it up id like to talk to you about your belief in the hereafter.. and i mean a genuine discussion cause it does interest me that someone who is not religious believes in an afterlife.. would you be willing to have such a discussion?
That would be interesting, Catefrances. I'll watch for someone to start up such a thread (though I wonder how quickly it will cave in.)
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
Time here irrelevant because it was what? days later
and a direct result of the backlash from what
Dharun Ravi did that caused him to take his life.
If he had't taken his life I would still not be ok with 30 days.
Because of the nature of the crime
and torment the victim was forced to endure.
But 30 days for the loss of this boys life, the anguish his family are living,
is a slap in the face ... absolutely no justice.
I would like to see him deported most especially since he has never completed
the requirements to stay in our country.
"Ravi, who was born in India, could face deportation over his conviction
because he never completed requirements to obtain US citizenship
despite spending most of his life in America."
pack your bags and take your mother with you!
What do you have in mind? i mean i look at it like this, either he's feels guilty as all hell or he doesnt, nothing is going to change that, so what's appropriate punishment?
Whether the sentence would be without parole options before that, perhaps not.
In this case he could be eligible for deportation also.
Cyber bullying should be taken seriously in all cases but especially those resulting in a death.
And yes it was a hate crime against gay people and he should have been more seriously
punished for that also.
This punishment was so incredibly weak it speaks volumes about victims rights.
what I did mean was that the poster or anyone can't argue as to the specifics of what happened
and why, in my opinion. That the actions of one a direct reaction of another.
Not arguing in a court of law ... arguing.
When I was in Seattle, there was a bridge-jumper holding up traffic while the cops tried to talk her down. Some asshole in his car, fed up with being stuck in traffic, told her to just get it over with and jump ... and she did. Luckily, she some how survived a 100 foot fall into the water below. If she died, would the insensitive a-hole that told her to jump deserve to spend five years in jail?
It is clear there are cause and effect, there are action reaction...
We all know what happened here. We know a crime was committed and a life was taken because
of that crime. Pretty simple.
It shows a different side to the events/case. (from what we initially got from the media)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHdi2sANQjg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
But that might not have been the SOLE reason that he committed suicide, though. We really do not know.
While it's pretty obvious the criminal act likely had lots to do with it, there could have been other factors.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
And once again, I don't know what would have been a fair sentence. I think this guy sounds like an immature, insensitive douche, none of which is against the law.
Had the roommate not committed suicide, I think there's a good chance there wouldn't have been any criminal charges. The young man who died had requested a change of roommates. He might have just made the change and let the matter drop rather than draw any more attention to it. There's no way to know.
Yeah - I know you said the outrage would have been the same, so I was asking if that translated to the sentence.
And I suspect the outrage would not have been the same, but I really I do not know.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The social media can quickly bring embarrassment, shame, life changing events for victims.
This is a new weapon to weld for bullies. It is handing them power to destroy other peoples lives.
Infringing on the right to personal privacy must be punished and for me 30 days
is not a punishment it is a joke.
Tyler Clementi was born in 1991, he was a talented violinist with his whole life ahead of him.
Ravi can't be held responsible for that.
Oh, sweet irony!
If you expect Tyler to take responsibility we must have Ravi do the same for his part of this
crime and the events he set in motion.
If we do not we give all bullies the right of way to victimize, to cause anguish, to destroy lives
and to condone this by saying the victim should have been stronger.
Victims have basic rights ... the right to live their lives and not be victimized!
Tyler had the right to privacy, the right to love whom he wanted without being chastised.
Ravi caused the anguish that caused Tyler to take his life ...
no different than a bank robber who causes someone to run in front of a car,
they both indirectly took a life while committing a crime.
Personal responsibility is important.
in punishment. Ravi is directly responsible for the loss of life by bullying and tormenting
while committing the crime of compromising another's basic personal right to privacy.
This as in a woman is brutally victimized and commits suicide days later, in my opinion
this should weigh heavily on the rapist and directly affect his punishment and guilt,
death as a result of a crime upon another.
Taking ones own life is the height of being victimized in these cases and the victimizers
should take responsibility in their part and be punished more harshly as contributing
to the loss of life.
This December 19th Tyler would be celebrating his 21st birthday, he is not because Ravi
victimized him, making his life a horrible hell in which to be.
Does anyone know how this feels?
I imagine a heart broken, a spirit broken.
I've stated how I feel about this horrible crime and injustice,
my heart and spirit is with this young man, the victim...
Tyler Clementi ...
it is a terrible senseless loss.
In addition, as I understand it, Tyler had only just recently came out . So , I believe it would be safe to assume he wasnt fully comfortable just yet with being out.
Ravi , I think was more the straw that broke the camels back.
Douchebag behaviour? Yes. Learned at home? probably. Heard on NPR last week about how homosexuality is seen as an abomination in India. So , learned attitudes strikes again.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Like I said, I think he's an ass, and his behaviour is inexcusable, but I think one should only be charged with the crime they commit, and not the subsequent events.
justice was not had here.
We all make choices everyday, we set in motion events for others based on these choices,
good and bad even life and death. Nothing is random in that we are all connected,
the choice you make today will be my affect tomorrow.
The law is to protect against the ignorant that know not what they do or do not care
how they affect others.
We all agree Ravi's actions were immoral with him being called here many derogatory names.
Where our opinions differ is if he should be held responsible for the action
Tyler took as a result of the abuse.
A couple of things influence my thinking, that is the new age of cyber bullying
and the fact our right to privacy is being eroded in the social networks,
some by personal choice, some we see, as in this case, not at all by choice,
with grave consequences.
This case is setting a precedence for future similar crime in the court room.
The analogies of other crime scenarios I have given, show my opinion
on our moral and legal responsibilities when we commit a crime
that is further complicated by events set in motion by the original crime.
The two are greatly linked...
to create a victim with bullying then cause that victim to take action
because of the abuse is entirely on the bully.
Direct cause and effect.
We have seen the horrendous actions of children being bullied a lifetime
who then strike back at society. This snapping of the brain a direct result
of constant abuse. We also see parents who abuse and bully and the consequences
for the young brain there.
It is a likely presumption to assume if Tyler had never been a victim of Ravi
he would be playing his violin as we speak. A happy young man who had come to terms
with who he was but whom fell prey to horrible peer abuse and subsequent shame.
In my opinion Ravi should have been given a much stiffer penalty
entirely based on the loss of life. There would lay the justice for the family
and the life lost.
Discuss the topic, not the people discussing the topic. No personal comments. Look your comments over before hitting Submit and be sure you're debating THE TOPIC.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I love this. This is the same argument I always try to make when people claim that personal drug use doesn't affect anyone else.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
we are responsible not only for ourselves but to each other,
yes that includes what you mention here.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That would be interesting, Catefrances. I'll watch for someone to start up such a thread (though I wonder how quickly it will cave in.)
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"