oh and now that youve brought it up id like to talk to you about your belief in the hereafter.. and i mean a genuine discussion cause it does interest me that someone who is not religious believes in an afterlife.. would you be willing to have such a discussion?
That would be interesting, Catefrances. I'll watch for someone to start up such a thread (though I wonder how quickly it will cave in.)
i find it very interesting. actually id rather it wasnt a thread because it would degenerate into bullshit... but it is something id like to discuss.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
maybe he was having an issue with his sexuality and the fallout from what ravi did was the last straw. maybe if it hadnt gone further than ravi he mightve been able to get to a point of strength and deal. but this is really all moot cause a boy is dead by his own hand and thats a real shame. but the bigger shame is he felt there was no one he could turn to for help.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
maybe he was having an issue with his sexuality and the fallout from what ravi did was the last straw. maybe if it hadnt gone further than ravi he mightve been able to get to a point of strength and deal. but this is really all moot cause a boy is dead by his own hand and thats a real shame. but the bigger shame is he felt there was no one he could turn to for help.
Exactly. You're probably right, but that's the point -- none of us really know if that was the sole reason he killed himself, or if it was just that final straw. Its all really sad either way.
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
The victim here of terrible public abuse had never attempted suicide before, had resolved
issues by coming out with his family and others close to him and was pursuing a personal
sexual relationship that he felt was right for him.
Leading up to the incident of this illegal taping of his private moments,
this done to banish him, to humiliate him, Tyler was quite fine with exactly who he was.
I have not suggested Ravi should be charged with murder.
I have suggested he requires a stiffer penalty for the cyber bullying
that put in motion events that took a life.
I have suggested justice for the family and a reasonable
punishment as precedence for future crimes in cyber bullying.
Because we know we will see more and maybe more loss of life from it.
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
The victim here of terrible public abuse had never attempted suicide before, had resolved
issues by coming out with his family and others close to him and was pursuing a personal
sexual relationship that he felt was right for him.
Leading up to the incident of this illegal taping of his private moments,
this done to banish him, to humiliate him, Tyler was quite fine with exactly who he was.
I have not suggested Ravi should be charged with murder.
I have suggested he requires a stiffer penalty for the cyber bullying
that put in motion events that took a life.
I have suggested justice for the family and a reasonable
punishment as precedence for future crimes in cyber bullying.
Because we know we will see more and maybe more loss of life from it.
i think youre right pandora. i think cyber bullying should be taken more seriously. i dont think weve quite caught up with the technology and how it can be used. i think we too easily dimiss cyber bullying as not being real bullying.. and that we should just suck it up. i think we should all take a stronger stand on it and then maybe the politicians will be forced through public opinion to push for harsher penalties.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
The victim here of terrible public abuse had never attempted suicide before, had resolved
issues by coming out with his family and others close to him and was pursuing a personal
sexual relationship that he felt was right for him.
Leading up to the incident of this illegal taping of his private moments,
this done to banish him, to humiliate him, Tyler was quite fine with exactly who he was.
I have not suggested Ravi should be charged with murder.
I have suggested he requires a stiffer penalty for the cyber bullying
that put in motion events that took a life.
I have suggested justice for the family and a reasonable
punishment as precedence for future crimes in cyber bullying.
Because we know we will see more and maybe more loss of life from it.
To the underlined part: We don't know that. that's my point, you are assuming about the victims mental state.
I agree that the penalty should've been stiffer, but I think the suicide aspect should not sway the charges or punishment. The actual crime needs to be the focus, not what the victim did as a response. You're opening up a whole new can of worms if you want to include peoples reactions to crimes in the punishment phase.
I could give a lady the finger for cutting me off in traffic...then if she's so upset and drives off a cliff, am I responsible?
This Ravi asshole can't be held accountable for the suicide.
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
The victim here of terrible public abuse had never attempted suicide before, had resolved
issues by coming out with his family and others close to him and was pursuing a personal
sexual relationship that he felt was right for him.
Leading up to the incident of this illegal taping of his private moments,
this done to banish him, to humiliate him, Tyler was quite fine with exactly who he was.
I have not suggested Ravi should be charged with murder.
I have suggested he requires a stiffer penalty for the cyber bullying
that put in motion events that took a life.
I have suggested justice for the family and a reasonable
punishment as precedence for future crimes in cyber bullying.
Because we know we will see more and maybe more loss of life from it.
To the underlined part: We don't know that. that's my point, you are assuming about the victims mental state.
I agree that the penalty should've been stiffer, but I think the suicide aspect should not sway the charges or punishment. The actual crime needs to be the focus, not what the victim did as a response. You're opening up a whole new can of worms if you want to include peoples reactions to crimes in the punishment phase.
I could give a lady the finger for cutting me off in traffic...then if she's so upset and drives off a cliff, am I responsible?
Giving a person the finger is not a crime... I don't think so at least :?
maybe to a cop.... yikes!
We have been discussing in other posts while in the midst of committing a crime the resulting events put into motion
is a death or another crime. I have made a couple analogies covering this and in my opinion
those events should be taken into consideration when sentencing.
We have to go on in Tyler's case,
there is no evidence he was troubled until he was made a fool of,
emotionally victimized, publicly humiliated, ostracized, and made to be in a living hell.
A victims response is a part of the bullying... it is the gauge for severity.
Giving a person the finger is not a crime... I don't think so at least :?
maybe to a cop.... yikes!
We have been discussing in other posts while in the midst of committing a crime the resulting events put into motion
is a death or another crime. I have made a couple analogies covering this and in my opinion
those events should be taken into consideration when sentencing.
We have to go on in Tyler's case,
there is no evidence he was troubled until he was made a fool of,
emotionally victimized, publicly humiliated, ostracized, and made to be in a living hell.
A victims response is a part of the bullying... it is the gauge for severity.
Ok, bad example on the finger in traffic.
My point was that every single person has a different reaction to a crime. Had I been video taped doing those things, i may be be proud, some others may be distraught, some victims might think its funny...you can NEVER tell someones reaction to a crime. Of course there's no evidence that Tyler troubled before...again, that doesnt matter. The suicide, I think, was three days later...what if it was a week later, or a month later? How can you tell if its directly related? (trust me, I feel its related, but there's no way to measure this)
Your analogy of a bank robbery resulting in a death is a completely different story and 100% unrelatable to this instance. In a bank robbery instance, the criminal CAN actually be charged with murder even if he/she didnt kill the person themselves...that's why I thought your analogy was poor because I thought you were suggesting that Ravi could be similarly charged with murder. But thats cleared up I guess.
Bottom line is, bullying punishments DO certainly need to be tougher, but until we can predict the future, you cant consider someones actions days later.
**edit -- I respect your opinion Pandora that the death should be considered in sentencing ...and I can agree somewhat..I'm just stating how think the law works in this case, and how I can see how a controversial act like this making it too difficult to make a judgement considering future acts subsequent to a crime
We did stupid shit in college too... and yes, it included some bullying. Who knows what could have happened if we had the technology we had today. Im not sure it would have gone this far, but in college Freshman dorm mentality, I would be lying if I said it would be that far-fetched.
This was very insensitive and stupid. It was escalated by the kid when he jumped off the bridge though.
The Ravi guy's life has been turned upside down. Im sure of it. He also is probably living with a great deal of guilt. Making an example of him wouldnt un-do the stupid act... it would just pretty much end another young life.
We did stupid shit in college too... and yes, it included some bullying. Who knows what could have happened if we had the technology we had today. Im not sure it would have gone this far, but in college Freshman dorm mentality, I would be lying if I said it would be that far-fetched.
This was very insensitive and stupid. It was escalated by the kid when he jumped off the bridge though.
The Ravi guy's life has been turned upside down. Im sure of it. He also is probably living with a great deal of guilt. Making an example of him wouldnt un-do the stupid act... it would just pretty much end another young life.
i disagree mayday.. this young man needs to be made an example of so that others dont make the same mistake he did in treating someone elses life so frivilously. thats what precedence is for. remember ravis life may be turned upside down but tylers life has ended.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
We did stupid shit in college too... and yes, it included some bullying. Who knows what could have happened if we had the technology we had today. Im not sure it would have gone this far, but in college Freshman dorm mentality, I would be lying if I said it would be that far-fetched.
This was very insensitive and stupid. It was escalated by the kid when he jumped off the bridge though.
The Ravi guy's life has been turned upside down. Im sure of it. He also is probably living with a great deal of guilt. Making an example of him wouldnt un-do the stupid act... it would just pretty much end another young life.
i disagree mayday.. this young man needs to be made an example of so that others dont make the same mistake he did in treating someone elses life so frivilously. thats what precedence is for. remember ravis life may be turned upside down but tylers life has ended.
while his life may have been turned upside down, He doesnt seem to have shown any remorse or outward guilt ,thats been reported anyway, since this all began.
If he had I'm sure some would have jumped on him for being trite or insincere. BUT he would have gotten that out there.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Referring to the 'Just being a kid.... ' thread where 'excuses' were being made for Romney bullying and cutting off Lauber's hair because he was 'different'. Should there have been mobile phones with cameras and social networking at that time, would his bullying/holding down Lauber and chopping the hair off been recorded and broadcast? I would say most probably. And yet people dismiss this as a 'prank' like a lot of kids get up to.
OK - so this Lauber person may have been 'stronger' and did not commit suicide days after the 'prank' (though we don't know if Ravi's 'prank' is the cause of the suicide), but could Ravi's actions not be compared to Romney's in his youth? So one 'dismisses' Romney's physical attack on a homosexual as a prank but Ravi's deed is seen as some very vile hate crime? Just saying....
Referring to the 'Just being a kid.... ' thread where 'excuses' were being made for Romney bullying and cutting off Lauber's hair because he was 'different'. Should there have been mobile phones with cameras and social networking at that time, would his bullying/holding down Lauber and chopping the hair off been recorded and broadcast? I would say most probably. And yet people dismiss this as a 'prank' like a lot of kids get up to.
OK - so this Lauber person may have been 'stronger' and did not commit suicide days after the 'prank' (though we don't know if Ravi's 'prank' is the cause of the suicide), but could Ravi's actions not be compared to Romney's in his youth? So one 'dismisses' Romney's physical attack on a homosexual as a prank but Ravi's deed is seen as some very vile hate crime? Just saying....
I guess one could compare but cutting one's hair is not so much a crime,
I think many would classify that more as a prank.
Ravi taping and sharing publicly intimate sexual moments is not a prank it is a crime
and is immoral. The level he went to to banish and humiliate is in a entirely different league.
I also believe the era that both events happened needs to be considered. In this day and time
Ravi should have known better.
To me, someone who leads a posse, tackling and pinning down another person with a goal to inflict physical damage (even if it's 'only' cutting hair) sounds like it could be considered assault to me. And this happening BECAUSE this person was deemed homosexual - sounds like it could be considered a hate thing to me.
One can take these things as far as one wants.
Taken at it's base, different outcomes but same 'bullying', though of a different nature.
It would seem that neither 'showed remorse'. It just so happened that Ravi's actions are not acceptable today (and this is totally disregarding the suicide bit as it was not part of the case and cannot be linked to it) but would Romney's be?
In my opinion how can anyone say sorry I taped you having sex and showed it to the world :?
opps shouldn't have done that ... just wasn't thinking :fp:
NO! Ravi was calculating, his crime premeditated, his motive
mass humiliation based on sexual preference. He intended to hurt Tyler and change his life,
boy did he do that.
Just saying he showed remorse. From other threads, I though it was accepted that showing remorse was part of 'paying one's due' and one had to 'give kudos' to that. And he didn't tape anything (ie to put up on youtube or whatnot), it was a webcam capture. Not that it makes any difference to the spying charge.
Romney had all the same intentions too. Just did it differently with what was available at the time. Should this kind of behaviour happen today in a school, it would be a huge talking point too.
Again, the suicide has not been linked to Ravi's actions.
Anyway, this case is another one of bullying - way too common/accepted nowadays (the 'take it on the chin and go on with your business' syndrome). This is what has to be stamped out - however this bullying is conducted.
In my opinion how can anyone say sorry I taped you having sex and showed it to the world :?
opps shouldn't have done that ... just wasn't thinking :fp:
NO! Ravi was calculating, his crime premeditated, his motive
mass humiliation based on sexual preference. He intended to hurt Tyler and change his life,
boy did he do that.
He didn't tape it. Two people saw it for less then five seconds. Review the evidence.
In my opinion how can anyone say sorry I taped you having sex and showed it to the world :?
opps shouldn't have done that ... just wasn't thinking :fp:
NO! Ravi was calculating, his crime premeditated, his motive
mass humiliation based on sexual preference. He intended to hurt Tyler and change his life,
boy did he do that.
He didn't tape it. Two people saw it for less then five seconds. Review the evidence.
Pardon me webcast ...
and the motive remains the same
edit...
"Evidence has shown that not only did Ravi set out to tape the encounters, but he encouraged others to join in the viewing as well. Evidence has also shown that Tyler was uncomfortable enough with Ravi’s blatant display of homophobia that he asked for a room change days before committing suicide. And perhaps the most damming evidence of all is that Ravi tweeted two days before Tyler’s death “Roommate asked for the room til midnight. I went into Molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay!""
Referring to the 'Just being a kid.... ' thread where 'excuses' were being made for Romney bullying and cutting off Lauber's hair because he was 'different'. Should there have been mobile phones with cameras and social networking at that time, would his bullying/holding down Lauber and chopping the hair off been recorded and broadcast? I would say most probably. And yet people dismiss this as a 'prank' like a lot of kids get up to.
OK - so this Lauber person may have been 'stronger' and did not commit suicide days after the 'prank' (though we don't know if Ravi's 'prank' is the cause of the suicide), but could Ravi's actions not be compared to Romney's in his youth? So one 'dismisses' Romney's physical attack on a homosexual as a prank but Ravi's deed is seen as some very vile hate crime? Just saying....
I guess one could compare but cutting one's hair is not so much a crime,
I think many would classify that more as a prank.
Ravi taping and sharing publicly intimate sexual moments is not a prank it is a crime
and is immoral. The level he went to to banish and humiliate is in a entirely different league.
I also believe the era that both events happened needs to be considered. In this day and time
Ravi should have known better.
in the eyes of the law the hair cutting could be considered assault and battery.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
In my opinion how can anyone say sorry I taped you having sex and showed it to the world :?
opps shouldn't have done that ... just wasn't thinking :fp:
NO! Ravi was calculating, his crime premeditated, his motive
mass humiliation based on sexual preference. He intended to hurt Tyler and change his life,
boy did he do that.
He didn't tape it. Two people saw it for less then five seconds. Review the evidence.
Pardon me webcast ...
and the motive remains the same
edit...
"Evidence has shown that not only did Ravi set out to tape the encounters, but he encouraged others to join in the viewing as well. Evidence has also shown that Tyler was uncomfortable enough with Ravi’s blatant display of homophobia that he asked for a room change days before committing suicide. And perhaps the most damming evidence of all is that Ravi tweeted two days before Tyler’s death “Roommate asked for the room til midnight. I went into Molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay!""
I guess others call it taping too
Did he tape it? Did others watch it?
No and no.
If I tweeted I was going to marry Angelina Jolie, does that mean we are married?
(there is still time. I just need to contact Ravi and have him deal with this "Brad" issue. Apparently he is a criminal mastermind with no equal )
"But as testimony during Ravi's trial has confirmed, there was no sex tape, and the images were never available to the general public. On the evening of September 19, 2010, Ravi set the webcam on his computer to automatically accept video chats, then went across the hall to a friend's room, where they saw a few seconds of Clementi and his visitor kissing, fully clothed, before shutting off the feed. The images were not recorded, and they were not transmitted anywhere except across the hall. "
"Editor's Note: This column has been updated to reflect that Dharun Ravi streamed the video of Tyler Clementi. He did not tape it."
Testimony/court evidence is a bit more reliable than sensationalist journalism. When you have celebrities (Degeneres) claiming that Clementi "was outed as being gay on the Internet and he killed himself.." doesn't help at all. Clementi was not outed as he was not hiding anything. Thus this 'being mortified of being outed then committing suicide' doesn't stand. Probably why Clementi's suicide was not considered in the charges.
This said, it doesn't make Ravi's actions any better but let's just get some basic facts right to try and better understand the issue.
He didn't tape it. Two people saw it for less then five seconds. Review the evidence.
Pardon me webcast ...
and the motive remains the same
edit...
"Evidence has shown that not only did Ravi set out to tape the encounters, but he encouraged others to join in the viewing as well. Evidence has also shown that Tyler was uncomfortable enough with Ravi’s blatant display of homophobia that he asked for a room change days before committing suicide. And perhaps the most damming evidence of all is that Ravi tweeted two days before Tyler’s death “Roommate asked for the room til midnight. I went into Molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay!""
I guess others call it taping too
Did he tape it? Did others watch it?
No and no.
If I tweeted I was going to marry Angelina Jolie, does that mean we are married?
(there is still time. I just need to contact Ravi and have him deal with this "Brad" issue. Apparently he is a criminal mastermind with no equal )
A young man is dead....
An attitude of making a bully's actions smaller, incidental, less serious
allows bullies to bully in our society.
As I mentioned before everyone has the right to live their lives NOT as a victim of another.
The gauge to severity of bullying is how the victim who is made by the bully...
reacts.
Tyler would not have been a victim if not for Ravi and he would be playing his violin
today.
Referring to the 'Just being a kid.... ' thread where 'excuses' were being made for Romney bullying and cutting off Lauber's hair because he was 'different'. Should there have been mobile phones with cameras and social networking at that time, would his bullying/holding down Lauber and chopping the hair off been recorded and broadcast? I would say most probably. And yet people dismiss this as a 'prank' like a lot of kids get up to.
OK - so this Lauber person may have been 'stronger' and did not commit suicide days after the 'prank' (though we don't know if Ravi's 'prank' is the cause of the suicide), but could Ravi's actions not be compared to Romney's in his youth? So one 'dismisses' Romney's physical attack on a homosexual as a prank but Ravi's deed is seen as some very vile hate crime? Just saying....
I guess one could compare but cutting one's hair is not so much a crime,
I think many would classify that more as a prank.
Ravi taping and sharing publicly intimate sexual moments is not a prank it is a crime
and is immoral. The level he went to to banish and humiliate is in a entirely different league.
I also believe the era that both events happened needs to be considered. In this day and time
Ravi should have known better.
in the eyes of the law the hair cutting could be considered assault and battery.
I thought that could be the case.... A criminal matter as well. Just different type of charge.
I guess one could compare but cutting one's hair is not so much a crime,
I think many would classify that more as a prank.
Ravi taping and sharing publicly intimate sexual moments is not a prank it is a crime
and is immoral. The level he went to to banish and humiliate is in a entirely different league.
I also believe the era that both events happened needs to be considered. In this day and time
Ravi should have known better.
in the eyes of the law the hair cutting could be considered assault and battery.
I thought that could be the case.... A criminal matter as well. Just different type of charge.
I could be wrong but back in the era that Romney did this, I don't think that would hold as an
assault and battery charge, maybe today it would though.
An attitude of making a bully's actions smaller, incidental, less serious
allows bullies to bully in our society.
As I mentioned before everyone has the right to live their lives NOT as a victim of another.
The gauge to severity of bullying is how the victim who is made by the bully...
reacts.
Tyler would not have been a victim if not for Ravi and he would be playing his violin
today.
Yet you have no problem if "justice" was done by the act of Ravi killing himself due to the same methods you describe above?
All I know is that you seem to know a lot more about the situation then I do. You must have a very large magic 8-ball to be able to peer into the mind of a dead person.
An attitude of making a bully's actions smaller, incidental, less serious
allows bullies to bully in our society.
As I mentioned before everyone has the right to live their lives NOT as a victim of another.
The gauge to severity of bullying is how the victim who is made by the bully...
reacts.
Tyler would not have been a victim if not for Ravi and he would be playing his violin
today.
Yet you have no problem if "justice" was done by the act of Ravi killing himself due to the same methods you describe above?
All I know is that you seem to know a lot more about the situation then I do. You must have a very large magic 8-ball to be able to peer into the mind of a dead person.
That remark as to justice I am a believer in karma and was really thinking that
and should have said that... it better explains my feelings.
It is for me a one plus one... two days later Tyler was dead.
If this horrific incident that Ravi created had not happened
it is fair to say that day
Tyler would not have taken his own life.
The young, a tender 18 years old, impressionable often unable to see to the future.
They often live in the day thinking the hell will not go away.
This hell Ravi made for Tyler he succumbed to.
If you think understanding is a magic 8 ball, so be it.
It seems so easy to understand this young man and his loss. His loss.
He was stripped down, humiliated, broken and didn't want to be himself any more.
This a direct result of what Ravi did to him.
If Clementi was so ' broken' after this incident with Ravi, how could he go about his business, meet up with his friend again, obviously asking Ravi to vacate the room for this encounter, and just unplugging the' offensive' laptop? There is a lot more to Clementi that meets the eye but the press decided to make this a 'crusade' obviously the courts were privy to all of this and thus did not link the suicide to the spying. It would seem, from testimony , that Clementi was more angry than anything else.
This does not diminish the fact that a young man took his life but it was not directly due to Ravi's actions, as established by the courts who had the all the info necessary to make that call. Info that the general public does not have, thus it's all speculation.
Comments
i find it very interesting. actually id rather it wasnt a thread because it would degenerate into bullshit... but it is something id like to discuss.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Plain and simple. Otherwise this would be some Minority Report stuff. We can't get into the mind of the victim. What if the victim had thought about suicide for the past few weeks and had planned it and it was to happen whether or not this embarrassing crime happened to him? I know that's not likely, but weirder coincidences have happened. I know/feel they're directly related, but you just can't prove that kind of thing, so you risk convicting a person on false pretenses.
maybe he was having an issue with his sexuality and the fallout from what ravi did was the last straw. maybe if it hadnt gone further than ravi he mightve been able to get to a point of strength and deal. but this is really all moot cause a boy is dead by his own hand and thats a real shame. but the bigger shame is he felt there was no one he could turn to for help.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Exactly. You're probably right, but that's the point -- none of us really know if that was the sole reason he killed himself, or if it was just that final straw. Its all really sad either way.
issues by coming out with his family and others close to him and was pursuing a personal
sexual relationship that he felt was right for him.
Leading up to the incident of this illegal taping of his private moments,
this done to banish him, to humiliate him, Tyler was quite fine with exactly who he was.
I have not suggested Ravi should be charged with murder.
I have suggested he requires a stiffer penalty for the cyber bullying
that put in motion events that took a life.
I have suggested justice for the family and a reasonable
punishment as precedence for future crimes in cyber bullying.
Because we know we will see more and maybe more loss of life from it.
i think youre right pandora. i think cyber bullying should be taken more seriously. i dont think weve quite caught up with the technology and how it can be used. i think we too easily dimiss cyber bullying as not being real bullying.. and that we should just suck it up. i think we should all take a stronger stand on it and then maybe the politicians will be forced through public opinion to push for harsher penalties.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
To the underlined part: We don't know that. that's my point, you are assuming about the victims mental state.
I agree that the penalty should've been stiffer, but I think the suicide aspect should not sway the charges or punishment. The actual crime needs to be the focus, not what the victim did as a response. You're opening up a whole new can of worms if you want to include peoples reactions to crimes in the punishment phase.
I could give a lady the finger for cutting me off in traffic...then if she's so upset and drives off a cliff, am I responsible?
maybe to a cop.... yikes!
We have been discussing in other posts
while in the midst of committing a crime the resulting events put into motion
is a death or another crime. I have made a couple analogies covering this and in my opinion
those events should be taken into consideration when sentencing.
We have to go on in Tyler's case,
there is no evidence he was troubled until he was made a fool of,
emotionally victimized, publicly humiliated, ostracized, and made to be in a living hell.
A victims response is a part of the bullying... it is the gauge for severity.
Ok, bad example on the finger in traffic.
My point was that every single person has a different reaction to a crime. Had I been video taped doing those things, i may be be proud, some others may be distraught, some victims might think its funny...you can NEVER tell someones reaction to a crime. Of course there's no evidence that Tyler troubled before...again, that doesnt matter. The suicide, I think, was three days later...what if it was a week later, or a month later? How can you tell if its directly related? (trust me, I feel its related, but there's no way to measure this)
Your analogy of a bank robbery resulting in a death is a completely different story and 100% unrelatable to this instance. In a bank robbery instance, the criminal CAN actually be charged with murder even if he/she didnt kill the person themselves...that's why I thought your analogy was poor because I thought you were suggesting that Ravi could be similarly charged with murder. But thats cleared up I guess.
Bottom line is, bullying punishments DO certainly need to be tougher, but until we can predict the future, you cant consider someones actions days later.
**edit -- I respect your opinion Pandora that the death should be considered in sentencing ...and I can agree somewhat..I'm just stating how think the law works in this case, and how I can see how a controversial act like this making it too difficult to make a judgement considering future acts subsequent to a crime
We did stupid shit in college too... and yes, it included some bullying. Who knows what could have happened if we had the technology we had today. Im not sure it would have gone this far, but in college Freshman dorm mentality, I would be lying if I said it would be that far-fetched.
This was very insensitive and stupid. It was escalated by the kid when he jumped off the bridge though.
The Ravi guy's life has been turned upside down. Im sure of it. He also is probably living with a great deal of guilt. Making an example of him wouldnt un-do the stupid act... it would just pretty much end another young life.
i disagree mayday.. this young man needs to be made an example of so that others dont make the same mistake he did in treating someone elses life so frivilously. thats what precedence is for. remember ravis life may be turned upside down but tylers life has ended.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If he had I'm sure some would have jumped on him for being trite or insincere. BUT he would have gotten that out there.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
OK - so this Lauber person may have been 'stronger' and did not commit suicide days after the 'prank' (though we don't know if Ravi's 'prank' is the cause of the suicide), but could Ravi's actions not be compared to Romney's in his youth? So one 'dismisses' Romney's physical attack on a homosexual as a prank but Ravi's deed is seen as some very vile hate crime? Just saying....
I think many would classify that more as a prank.
Ravi taping and sharing publicly intimate sexual moments is not a prank it is a crime
and is immoral. The level he went to to banish and humiliate is in a entirely different league.
I also believe the era that both events happened needs to be considered. In this day and time
Ravi should have known better.
One can take these things as far as one wants.
Taken at it's base, different outcomes but same 'bullying', though of a different nature.
It would seem that neither 'showed remorse'. It just so happened that Ravi's actions are not acceptable today (and this is totally disregarding the suicide bit as it was not part of the case and cannot be linked to it) but would Romney's be?
Actually, I think I will take that back. I forgot that Ravi did send a text to Clementi apologising for his actions.
opps shouldn't have done that ... just wasn't thinking :fp:
NO! Ravi was calculating, his crime premeditated, his motive
mass humiliation based on sexual preference. He intended to hurt Tyler and change his life,
boy did he do that.
Romney had all the same intentions too. Just did it differently with what was available at the time. Should this kind of behaviour happen today in a school, it would be a huge talking point too.
Again, the suicide has not been linked to Ravi's actions.
Anyway, this case is another one of bullying - way too common/accepted nowadays (the 'take it on the chin and go on with your business' syndrome). This is what has to be stamped out - however this bullying is conducted.
and the motive remains the same
edit...
"Evidence has shown that not only did Ravi set out to tape the encounters, but he encouraged others to join in the viewing as well. Evidence has also shown that Tyler was uncomfortable enough with Ravi’s blatant display of homophobia that he asked for a room change days before committing suicide. And perhaps the most damming evidence of all is that Ravi tweeted two days before Tyler’s death “Roommate asked for the room til midnight. I went into Molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay!""
I guess others call it taping too
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
No and no.
If I tweeted I was going to marry Angelina Jolie, does that mean we are married?
(there is still time. I just need to contact Ravi and have him deal with this "Brad" issue. Apparently he is a criminal mastermind with no equal
"But as testimony during Ravi's trial has confirmed, there was no sex tape, and the images were never available to the general public. On the evening of September 19, 2010, Ravi set the webcam on his computer to automatically accept video chats, then went across the hall to a friend's room, where they saw a few seconds of Clementi and his visitor kissing, fully clothed, before shutting off the feed. The images were not recorded, and they were not transmitted anywhere except across the hall. "
"Editor's Note: This column has been updated to reflect that Dharun Ravi streamed the video of Tyler Clementi. He did not tape it."
Testimony/court evidence is a bit more reliable than sensationalist journalism. When you have celebrities (Degeneres) claiming that Clementi "was outed as being gay on the Internet and he killed himself.." doesn't help at all. Clementi was not outed as he was not hiding anything. Thus this 'being mortified of being outed then committing suicide' doesn't stand. Probably why Clementi's suicide was not considered in the charges.
This said, it doesn't make Ravi's actions any better but let's just get some basic facts right to try and better understand the issue.
A young man is dead....
An attitude of making a bully's actions smaller, incidental, less serious
allows bullies to bully in our society.
As I mentioned before everyone has the right to live their lives NOT as a victim of another.
The gauge to severity of bullying is how the victim who is made by the bully...
reacts.
Tyler would not have been a victim if not for Ravi and he would be playing his violin
today.
assault and battery charge, maybe today it would though.
All I know is that you seem to know a lot more about the situation then I do. You must have a very large magic 8-ball to be able to peer into the mind of a dead person.
and should have said that... it better explains my feelings.
It is for me a one plus one... two days later Tyler was dead.
If this horrific incident that Ravi created had not happened
it is fair to say that day
Tyler would not have taken his own life.
The young, a tender 18 years old, impressionable often unable to see to the future.
They often live in the day thinking the hell will not go away.
This hell Ravi made for Tyler he succumbed to.
If you think understanding is a magic 8 ball, so be it.
It seems so easy to understand this young man and his loss. His loss.
He was stripped down, humiliated, broken and didn't want to be himself any more.
This a direct result of what Ravi did to him.
This does not diminish the fact that a young man took his life but it was not directly due to Ravi's actions, as established by the courts who had the all the info necessary to make that call. Info that the general public does not have, thus it's all speculation.