wouldnt throwing the book at Ravi, in some way encourage suicide? Like if someone reaaaallly wanted to get back at somebody and was in a dark place... they may be more likely to commit suicide after leaving a note/possible evidence when they know that their "bully" will do 30 years of jail time?
I agree with you that its extremely likely that Ravi's actions led to this suicide, but my point is that you cannot prove this kind of thing in a court of law. Its simply impossible. I'm not giving the guy a pass. I think he should serve a heavier sentence for his crime. But I dont think a person can be held accountable for something that happens days later -- it sets a precedent..What if the suicide happened two weeks later? Would it still be Ravi's fault? if you can convict someone based on someones reaction days, weeks, or even months later, people will be falsely convicted all over the place.
I think severity/punishment of bullying and the actual hate crimes should be considered the problem here.
I wish I could answer your questions...but I can't...no one can...
I understand your concerns for precedent...but I'm concerned about this case and that's what I'm basing my opinion on...
I know I keep going back to this....if Ravi had not done what he did...would be talking about this....? I'm pretty sure the answer would be "no"...
as I see it, he pushed Tyler over the edge....he provided the final straw...he should spend some time in jail....
How are you measuring these straws? why is one more important than the other?
You shouldn't try so hard to justify somone committing suicide...
with a ruler....
what are you taking about....?
thanks, but I'm not....
No rules, just trying to figure out why your trying to blame people when someone decides to KILL THEMSELF.
Seems like its pretty simple to understand.
I guess I'll just blame everything I do, on someone else...
I'll say it again, this is how kids reason - "he made me do it"
At what point are you not responsible for your OWN ACTIONS, especially KILLING YOURSELF
Sure, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility that anything you DO to someone, you are inevitably responsible for their following actions, and if their action turns out to be suicide, then you my friend are responsible for their death...
the action of the room mate triggered the kid's action to jump off of a bridge. it pushed him over the line and his reaction was to kill himself.
it is like a gun. the gun is harmless and nothing happens until the trigger is pulled. his actions were triggered by what the room mate did.
what this kid did directly contributed to a death that otherwise might not have happened had the room mate not broadcast the homosexual encounter.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
as an aside...I find it sad that folks here are attempting to defend ravi....but that's just me...anyhoo "harmless pranks" aren't always harmless...
I don't see anyone defending his actions. I think some are simply saying that you can't bring additional severity to the punishment because of the reaction to the crime that he was convicted of because you cant speculate how someone will react to a crime, and that's how the law and the courts saw it too.
I think its pretty safe to say that everyone here despises what Ravi did and wish the whole scenario never happened.
who knows if the kid who killed himself would be alive today if this incident didn't happen.
Why would we assume he would be dead? I assume just the opposite.
He was a vibrant talented young man beginning his life.
And if another case and another case and another case of cyber bullying results in death
will we then think oh well maybe just maybe it is the bullying that is causing
people to want to leave this world.
We all know what bullying does to a child, others have hung themselves
taken pills, driven cars into trees ...
it is no different here yet some want to argue
it is not proof enough that the hell the bully made caused the victim
to want to die.
It may not be proof enough in a courtroom as of yet but we all know
what bully's do and what they cause.
I dont know how any of that has anything to do with my post. :?
please refer to my response to inmytree -- I agree that bullying is terrible and out of control in many cases. As I said, the laws pertaining to the actual crime need to be looked at , not the subsequent actions of someone days, weeks, or months later!
Point is, there might one day be a very similar case to Ravi/Tyler where someone commits suicide because of bullying and someone is convicted although that suicide would've taken place regardless. There will not likely ever be a way to decipher reactions to a crime regarding suicide, until we can hijack a persons thoughts. We have ZERO ability to prove by law the exact reasons that suicide took place.
To make sure this doesnt happen again, to get to the ROOT of the problem, the laws and severity of punishment for the ACTUAL CRIME need to be looked at. its not that hard to get.
No rules, just trying to figure out why your trying to blame people when someone decides to KILL THEMSELF.
Seems like its pretty simple to understand.
I guess I'll just blame everything I do, on someone else...
I'll say it again, this is how kids reason - "he made me do it"
At what point are you not responsible for your OWN ACTIONS, especially KILLING YOURSELF
Sure, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility that anything you DO to someone, you are inevitably responsible for their following actions, and if their action turns out to be suicide, then you my friend are responsible for their death...
why are you getting so upset over this...?
I understand that actions have consequences...you don't....
I dont know how any of that has anything to do with my post. :?
please refer to my response to inmytree -- I agree that bullying is terrible and out of control in many cases. As I said, the laws pertaining to the actual crime need to be looked at , not the subsequent actions of someone days, weeks, or months later!
Point is, there might one day be a very similar case to Ravi/Tyler where someone commits suicide because of bullying and someone is convicted although that suicide would've taken place regardless. There will not likely ever be a way to decipher reactions to a crime regarding suicide, until we can hijack a persons thoughts. We have ZERO ability to prove by law the exact reasons that suicide took place.
To make sure this doesnt happen again, to get to the ROOT of the problem, the laws and severity of punishment for the ACTUAL CRIME need to be looked at. its not that hard to get.
+1.......this is the correct answer to this thread.
I dont know how any of that has anything to do with my post. :?
please refer to my response to inmytree -- I agree that bullying is terrible and out of control in many cases. As I said, the laws pertaining to the actual crime need to be looked at , not the subsequent actions of someone days, weeks, or months later!
Point is, there might one day be a very similar case to Ravi/Tyler where someone commits suicide because of bullying and someone is convicted although that suicide would've taken place regardless. There will not likely ever be a way to decipher reactions to a crime regarding suicide, until we can hijack a persons thoughts. We have ZERO ability to prove by law the exact reasons that suicide took place.
To make sure this doesnt happen again, to get to the ROOT of the problem, the laws and severity of punishment for the ACTUAL CRIME need to be looked at. its not that hard to get.
+1.......this is the correct answer to this thread.
I think there is more that one correct answer in this thread....
I understand folks are worried about the "what if's" and "someday"....I hope folks understand that I'm taking about Ravi's actions in this incident on "that day"....his actions set off a chain of events....he should be held accountable...and it seems JohnyP is in agreement...and his point about the laws is a valid one....
I think there is more that one correct answer in this thread....
I understand folks are worried about the "what if's" and "someday"....I hope folks understand that I'm taking about Ravi's actions in this incident on "that day"....his actions set off a chain of events....he should be held accountable...and it seems JohnyP is in agreement...and his point about the laws is a valid one....
The foundation for accountability is the law, unfortunately there is no standard for morality.
I believe that is why the law may need further examination.
You people are making this to confusing.
Ravi, nor his actions killed this kid...
Tyler killed himself, no one forced him...
Accusing Ravi of being the cause of Clementi's suicide is a reaction to how the media jumped on this bandwagon. When reading reports of testimony and evidence at the trial, it's a very different, more complete image that one gets. The jurors and the judges (who sifted through the evidence first) pieced together Clementi's actions from when he found out about the first 'intrusion' to him calmly wanting the room free for another meeting with his man (and turning off the laptop). Testimony put forward said Clementi was perfectly rational and 'normal' when he made his official complaints and requested a room change (though he was known to be an 'awkward' young man). It would seem he even tweeted "But its not like he left the cam on or recorded or anything / he just like took a five sec peep lol".
Again, Clementi's suicide was not linked to Ravi's actions as those that had all the facts, etc. (some documents not released to the public or even the lawyers - such as a suicide note by Clementi and stuff on his computer- as they were not deemed relevant to the case) decided it was not the case.
What if, instead of Ravi, something happened during Clementi's second encounter with his man and this caused Clementi to 'go over the edge'? A 'lover's quarrel' that went bad? Some realisation on Clementi's side?
See... speculation can go both ways.
A young man committed suicide - something difficult for loved ones to deal with. Being able to put a blame on someone else (and maybe 'absolve' the other) may be a way to come to terms with this.
As tragic as the end of a young life is, to me it would seem that Clementi has become a 'cause celebre' for some, a 'poster boy' of some kind (and I do not mean this in a disrespectful way - it's just how the media has been portraying this).
I guess everyone's own opinion/speculation on the reasons of Clementi's suicide is rooted within one's sensitivity to the issue (Has one been bullied and never really got over it, therefore feeling more empathy? Has one been ridiculed before, therefore 'taking sides' with the victim? Has one been discriminated against, therefore taking up the issue?).
Ravi did something wrong. He was tried and found guilty. Whether the sentence is what it should be, I don't know.
Guess I've said my bit. This thread is going in circles again. Unless all documents are made official, one can only speculate - Ravi's fault/not Ravi's fault.
Comments
not sure, just popped into my head.
with a ruler....
what are you taking about....?
thanks, but I'm not....
it is like a gun. the gun is harmless and nothing happens until the trigger is pulled. his actions were triggered by what the room mate did.
what this kid did directly contributed to a death that otherwise might not have happened had the room mate not broadcast the homosexual encounter.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I dont know how any of that has anything to do with my post. :?
please refer to my response to inmytree -- I agree that bullying is terrible and out of control in many cases. As I said, the laws pertaining to the actual crime need to be looked at , not the subsequent actions of someone days, weeks, or months later!
Point is, there might one day be a very similar case to Ravi/Tyler where someone commits suicide because of bullying and someone is convicted although that suicide would've taken place regardless. There will not likely ever be a way to decipher reactions to a crime regarding suicide, until we can hijack a persons thoughts. We have ZERO ability to prove by law the exact reasons that suicide took place.
To make sure this doesnt happen again, to get to the ROOT of the problem, the laws and severity of punishment for the ACTUAL CRIME need to be looked at. its not that hard to get.
why are you getting so upset over this...?
I understand that actions have consequences...you don't....
I get that....you don't....
+1.......this is the correct answer to this thread.
I think there is more that one correct answer in this thread....
I understand folks are worried about the "what if's" and "someday"....I hope folks understand that I'm taking about Ravi's actions in this incident on "that day"....his actions set off a chain of events....he should be held accountable...and it seems JohnyP is in agreement...and his point about the laws is a valid one....
The foundation for accountability is the law, unfortunately there is no standard for morality.
I believe that is why the law may need further examination.
Accusing Ravi of being the cause of Clementi's suicide is a reaction to how the media jumped on this bandwagon. When reading reports of testimony and evidence at the trial, it's a very different, more complete image that one gets. The jurors and the judges (who sifted through the evidence first) pieced together Clementi's actions from when he found out about the first 'intrusion' to him calmly wanting the room free for another meeting with his man (and turning off the laptop). Testimony put forward said Clementi was perfectly rational and 'normal' when he made his official complaints and requested a room change (though he was known to be an 'awkward' young man). It would seem he even tweeted "But its not like he left the cam on or recorded or anything / he just like took a five sec peep lol".
Again, Clementi's suicide was not linked to Ravi's actions as those that had all the facts, etc. (some documents not released to the public or even the lawyers - such as a suicide note by Clementi and stuff on his computer- as they were not deemed relevant to the case) decided it was not the case.
What if, instead of Ravi, something happened during Clementi's second encounter with his man and this caused Clementi to 'go over the edge'? A 'lover's quarrel' that went bad? Some realisation on Clementi's side?
See... speculation can go both ways.
A young man committed suicide - something difficult for loved ones to deal with. Being able to put a blame on someone else (and maybe 'absolve' the other) may be a way to come to terms with this.
As tragic as the end of a young life is, to me it would seem that Clementi has become a 'cause celebre' for some, a 'poster boy' of some kind (and I do not mean this in a disrespectful way - it's just how the media has been portraying this).
I guess everyone's own opinion/speculation on the reasons of Clementi's suicide is rooted within one's sensitivity to the issue (Has one been bullied and never really got over it, therefore feeling more empathy? Has one been ridiculed before, therefore 'taking sides' with the victim? Has one been discriminated against, therefore taking up the issue?).
Ravi did something wrong. He was tried and found guilty. Whether the sentence is what it should be, I don't know.
Guess I've said my bit. This thread is going in circles again. Unless all documents are made official, one can only speculate - Ravi's fault/not Ravi's fault.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012 ... ntPage=all