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gas prices

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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258
    dankind said:
    I must not be an average person. 
    We started getting groceries delivered two years ago and have continued. We're the most average people you've ever met!
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    dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 20,827
    dankind said:
    I must not be an average person. 
    We started getting groceries delivered two years ago and have continued. We're the most average people you've ever met!
    We do get some groceries delivered, but we hardly ever go out for pet supplies.

    We have found that Chewy and other delivery services/subscription services have been both cheaper and more convenient in that arena. Then again, we have a goddamn menagerie (two dogs, two cats, two guinea pigs, and two fish in separate aquariums). Maybe if you just have a single pet, the discounts aren't as great. And, of course, the shipping isn't free if your order is smaller. So it might not save the "average person" as much time and money. Not sure.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
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    CROJAM95CROJAM95 Posts: 9,123
    Our relationship to oil is like a heroin addicts to the drug/dealer

    Its all bullshit...they call it a market...yea for dummies

    there was big push years ago to go electric, raise MPG's for manufacturers....then the worst thing happened, Prices went down

    Pack to buying V8's & Sticking heads in the sand

    Look it, its worse & will get worse 


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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,997
    edited March 2022
    Lol....there will always be an excuse I guess. 
    An excuse to not pay someone to delivery my groceries? Yeah, I have lots of excuses not to do that.
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,997
    dankind said:
    dankind said:
    I must not be an average person. 
    We started getting groceries delivered two years ago and have continued. We're the most average people you've ever met!
    We do get some groceries delivered, but we hardly ever go out for pet supplies.

    We have found that Chewy and other delivery services/subscription services have been both cheaper and more convenient in that arena. Then again, we have a goddamn menagerie (two dogs, two cats, two guinea pigs, and two fish in separate aquariums). Maybe if you just have a single pet, the discounts aren't as great. And, of course, the shipping isn't free if your order is smaller. So it might not save the "average person" as much time and money. Not sure.
    We signed up for Costco membership specifically for their dog food. It was better quality than most and a lot cheaper. Now with kids we get all their snacks and lunch ingredients there too, as well as random frozen foods and vegetables that are better quality than anywhere I see. Not everything is available for delivery last time I checked, but that was a while ago.
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258
    CROJAM95 said:
    Our relationship to oil is like a heroin addicts to the drug/dealer

    Its all bullshit...they call it a market...yea for dummies

    there was big push years ago to go electric, raise MPG's for manufacturers....then the worst thing happened, Prices went down

    Pack to buying V8's & Sticking heads in the sand

    Look it, its worse & will get worse 





    chinese-happy.jpg
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    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    dankind said:
    mace1229 said:
    If I pay someone to deliver groceries, I don’t see how that’s saving gas. And it costs a lot more
    Saves you gas. 
    Saves on gas consumption all around because your order is only one of multiple orders that the delivery driver has stashed in their vehicle.
    Not necessarily, I used to deliver groceries a couple of years ago uber eats, instacart etc.. it might save the individual customer on fuel consumption, but at least in austin I don't think these services result in a net negative gas consumption. Sometimes you would get one batch and drive round trip 30 miles, and maybe you have three batches but they are all 20 miles from each other.  Those apps are inefficient in their routing,  

    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    $5.49 a gallon here but no complaints from me.  When we go out, we schedule as many strands as possible in an out, so no going out again and again.  We never have had much of a commute and when I have lived in places where I could do so, I've taken buses, street cars, subway, rail, bicycle, and walked.  America's car culture needs to end anyway, so let's all get used to driving less!.

    The one thing I would most like to see is the revitalization of railroads in America.  But are we doing that?  Sadly, no.  I just earlier today read this in the first 2022 quarterly of Steel Wheels, Magazine of the Western Passenger Train Coalition. a publication of RailPac (Rail Passenger Association of California and Nevada):

    "Sooner or later someone will notice there are a lot of commuter trains running with very few seats occupied, and we are shoveling large amounts of money to agencies such as Metrolink and Caltrain simply to keep operations running.  Our friend Andrew Selden from Minnesota tells me that there is a serious chance that the Northstar commuter service into the Twin Cities may be permanently discontinued because patronage is so poor."
    -Paul Dyson, RailPac Editor.

    To put it bluntly, this is shameful.  Look at most of the rest of the world, particularly Europe.  They have extensive rail systems that are fast, safe, and efficient, and with plentiful ridership.  America that way, in comparison, looks like a country living in the dark ages.  That needs to change.  Let's get on board with supporting our rail systems!  Doing so would be a big improvement and take us into the 20th century... not to mention the 21 century!
    But do other countries have the same housing grid and commute that we have? What I mean is, if you look at a city like LA, it’s way too expensive for most people to live in LA who work there. Many people drive 30-60 minutes just to get to work in all directions. I just can’t see a rail system that can cover that much ground and be effective.
    When I’ve traveled more places resemble something like New York where it’s compact, things are in walking distance, you can live for months without ever being more than a few miles from your house.So a rail or bus system doesn’t need to be too complicated and wouldn’t take hours. 

    But look at Southern California. People drive 60+ miles from the east in Riverside, drive 40 miles from the south from Orange, drive 60 miles from the north in Lancaster area and 20 miles from the west in Venice to get to their day job in LA. I can’t imagine how complicated that rail system would have to be. And with all the stop, how many hours would that take for the average person?
    And it’s not just day jobs, it’s medical appointments, specialty shops, etc they have to travel for.
    Many major cities have similar problems, San Diego, and as I’m sure you’re aware Sacramento, and so on.
    One thing I haven’t seen much of when I traveled are big houses on 1/3 acre lots. We like our houses and our land, but it means it takes 4 times the area to build a community. Probably a lot more if you can build sky rises like NY.

    Actually, RailPac is working diligently to increase commuter trains in the greater Los Angels area.  It makes perfect sense to do so!  Traffic there is insane and a lot of people do commute.  What better way to go than to increase rail service including light rail and connections with local buses?  Look at the greater Bay Area.  A lot of people commute using BART rail systems.  Sacramento has a fairly active light rail set up. 
    The Bay area is also expanding rail and light rail including BART.  There are now plans to extend rail service from the Bay Area down to Monterey.  The increase in traffic in these areas is insane, so more rail service only makes good sense.  As gas prices continue to climb, it will make more good sense.
    But these expansions are growing slowly in a time when extracting oil is becoming more costly.  Greater support for expanding rail is needed.
    The same is true for moving freight.  Railroads can more more freight weight per unit of energy than any other form of transportation.   But instead of expanding rail systems, we have giant fleets of trucks that use far more fuel per cargo weight and tear up roads and highway at considerable expense (remembering as well that there is petroleum in asphalt, putting a greater strain on oil reserves). 
    Expanding rail service in America is common sense.  There really is no viable argument against it.

    I don't mean to come across as a know-it-all here and I don't claim to be a rail expert, but I have been a member of both RailPac and Rail Passengers Association (RPA, Formerly NARP) for several years and have followed these for quite a while.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,985
    dankind said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Weird seeing people complain about gas prices WHEN YOUR CARS ARE  HELPING FUCK UP THE PLANET.

    Raise the prices. And make people cry in their stupid SUVs


    As someone who went out of her way to arrange her life so she could live car free, I agree with this sentiment, specifically when the complainers are people who absolutely could use public transit if they simply chose to. But nooooo, they're addicted to their cars. I understand there are folks who have no option other than a car, but SO many of those whining about it don't actually have to drive.
    Being car free is unrealistic for the average person. Most major cities build out, not up, so it’s too wide spread for really efficient public transit. Riding a city bus 30 or 40 miles that many people do because it’s too expensive to live closer to work would add hours to the commute. There would t be enough time in a day to take kids to practice, games, etc if you had to rely on the public system. 
    It’s not bad if you’re going to a baseball game or bar hopping, but not very practical for family needs.
    Thing is, once someone gets into the mindset that their cars are essential, they then use their cars when it’s not essential, and frankly—as the pandemic has taught us, obesity is a health crisis in the US—they’d be better off if they walked or biked to do some of their errands. 

    For instance, the grocery stores, restaurants, places geared toward errand runners in general are no farther away from me where I live now than a lot of them were when I lived in Brooklyn (~10 or 15 minutes). And we walked to those places (and much farther!) when we lived in Brooklyn. I fell into the trap of driving to them for a while if I had an errand to run where I live now because that’s what everyone else does, but I started walking to them about a year ago. (If I’m feeling brave, I’ll ride my bike. But I’ve got kids, man. And I think it’s an underground Masshole motorsport to intimidate, injure, and kill cyclists.)
    I'm sure you walked because of fear of losing a good parking spot?
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    mca47mca47 Posts: 13,251
    I'm just glad I have a company car and don't have to buy gas!
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    dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 20,827
    dankind said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Weird seeing people complain about gas prices WHEN YOUR CARS ARE  HELPING FUCK UP THE PLANET.

    Raise the prices. And make people cry in their stupid SUVs


    As someone who went out of her way to arrange her life so she could live car free, I agree with this sentiment, specifically when the complainers are people who absolutely could use public transit if they simply chose to. But nooooo, they're addicted to their cars. I understand there are folks who have no option other than a car, but SO many of those whining about it don't actually have to drive.
    Being car free is unrealistic for the average person. Most major cities build out, not up, so it’s too wide spread for really efficient public transit. Riding a city bus 30 or 40 miles that many people do because it’s too expensive to live closer to work would add hours to the commute. There would t be enough time in a day to take kids to practice, games, etc if you had to rely on the public system. 
    It’s not bad if you’re going to a baseball game or bar hopping, but not very practical for family needs.
    Thing is, once someone gets into the mindset that their cars are essential, they then use their cars when it’s not essential, and frankly—as the pandemic has taught us, obesity is a health crisis in the US—they’d be better off if they walked or biked to do some of their errands. 

    For instance, the grocery stores, restaurants, places geared toward errand runners in general are no farther away from me where I live now than a lot of them were when I lived in Brooklyn (~10 or 15 minutes). And we walked to those places (and much farther!) when we lived in Brooklyn. I fell into the trap of driving to them for a while if I had an errand to run where I live now because that’s what everyone else does, but I started walking to them about a year ago. (If I’m feeling brave, I’ll ride my bike. But I’ve got kids, man. And I think it’s an underground Masshole motorsport to intimidate, injure, and kill cyclists.)
    I'm sure you walked because of fear of losing a good parking spot?
    Nope. There's no such thing as losing a good spot when you have to move your car twice a week for street cleaning anyway. It's so fleeting that it doesn't matter.

    We did pay for a spot for a while and pretty much forgot that we owned a car until camping season rolled around.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
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    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,985
    dankind said:
    dankind said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Weird seeing people complain about gas prices WHEN YOUR CARS ARE  HELPING FUCK UP THE PLANET.

    Raise the prices. And make people cry in their stupid SUVs


    As someone who went out of her way to arrange her life so she could live car free, I agree with this sentiment, specifically when the complainers are people who absolutely could use public transit if they simply chose to. But nooooo, they're addicted to their cars. I understand there are folks who have no option other than a car, but SO many of those whining about it don't actually have to drive.
    Being car free is unrealistic for the average person. Most major cities build out, not up, so it’s too wide spread for really efficient public transit. Riding a city bus 30 or 40 miles that many people do because it’s too expensive to live closer to work would add hours to the commute. There would t be enough time in a day to take kids to practice, games, etc if you had to rely on the public system. 
    It’s not bad if you’re going to a baseball game or bar hopping, but not very practical for family needs.
    Thing is, once someone gets into the mindset that their cars are essential, they then use their cars when it’s not essential, and frankly—as the pandemic has taught us, obesity is a health crisis in the US—they’d be better off if they walked or biked to do some of their errands. 

    For instance, the grocery stores, restaurants, places geared toward errand runners in general are no farther away from me where I live now than a lot of them were when I lived in Brooklyn (~10 or 15 minutes). And we walked to those places (and much farther!) when we lived in Brooklyn. I fell into the trap of driving to them for a while if I had an errand to run where I live now because that’s what everyone else does, but I started walking to them about a year ago. (If I’m feeling brave, I’ll ride my bike. But I’ve got kids, man. And I think it’s an underground Masshole motorsport to intimidate, injure, and kill cyclists.)
    I'm sure you walked because of fear of losing a good parking spot?
    Nope. There's no such thing as losing a good spot when you have to move your car twice a week for street cleaning anyway. It's so fleeting that it doesn't matter.

    We did pay for a spot for a while and pretty much forgot that we owned a car until camping season rolled around.
    I am so happy that there is no alternate side parking in Nassau.  What a friggin joke.  

    If people were cleaner you could do away w that crap...
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    Hi!Hi! Posts: 3,095

    Detroit 2000, Detroit 2003 1-2, Grand Rapids VFC 2004, Philly 2005, Grand Rapids 2006, Detroit 2006, Cleveland 2006, Lollapalooza 2007, Detroit Eddie Solo 2011, Detroit 2014, Chicago 2016 1-2, Chicago 2018 1-2, Ohana Encore 2021 1-2, Chicago Eddie/Earthlings 2022 1-2, Nashville 2022, St. Louis 2022

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    JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,423
    I paid $6/gallon today in Los Angeles at a gas station near UCLA.

    Luckily my daily commute is only 13.6 miles total.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,581
    27 oil companies made $124B in profits. That’s BILLION with a B. CNN chyron “Surging gas prices create record profits for oil companies.”

    That didn’t take long.


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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    Hi! said:

    ^^^ We're not even close to this.
    JOEJOEJOE said:
    I paid $6/gallon today in Los Angeles at a gas station near UCLA.

    Luckily my daily commute is only 13.6 miles total.
    ^^^ That's where we are.  1/10th of one cent below $6 per gallon.
    And what is it with that 1/10th of one cent nonsense?  Dishonest pricing is what I call it!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    Hi!Hi! Posts: 3,095
    brianlux said:
    Hi! said:

    ^^^ We're not even close to this.
    JOEJOEJOE said:
    I paid $6/gallon today in Los Angeles at a gas station near UCLA.

    Luckily my daily commute is only 13.6 miles total.
    ^^^ That's where we are.  1/10th of one cent below $6 per gallon.
    And what is it with that 1/10th of one cent nonsense?  Dishonest pricing is what I call it!

    Yeah, these are “high” prices for Michigan, but haven’t come close to some of the prices I’ve seen in California. We are down a few cents today though, around $4.12. The high last week was around $4.25-$4.30 in my area. 

    Detroit 2000, Detroit 2003 1-2, Grand Rapids VFC 2004, Philly 2005, Grand Rapids 2006, Detroit 2006, Cleveland 2006, Lollapalooza 2007, Detroit Eddie Solo 2011, Detroit 2014, Chicago 2016 1-2, Chicago 2018 1-2, Ohana Encore 2021 1-2, Chicago Eddie/Earthlings 2022 1-2, Nashville 2022, St. Louis 2022

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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    Hi! said:
    brianlux said:
    Hi! said:

    ^^^ We're not even close to this.
    JOEJOEJOE said:
    I paid $6/gallon today in Los Angeles at a gas station near UCLA.

    Luckily my daily commute is only 13.6 miles total.
    ^^^ That's where we are.  1/10th of one cent below $6 per gallon.
    And what is it with that 1/10th of one cent nonsense?  Dishonest pricing is what I call it!

    Yeah, these are “high” prices for Michigan, but haven’t come close to some of the prices I’ve seen in California. We are down a few cents today though, around $4.12. The high last week was around $4.25-$4.30 in my area. 


    Gas gone down there- wow!  Unusual for right now.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    Hi!Hi! Posts: 3,095
    edited March 2022
    brianlux said:
    Hi! said:
    brianlux said:
    Hi! said:

    ^^^ We're not even close to this.
    JOEJOEJOE said:
    I paid $6/gallon today in Los Angeles at a gas station near UCLA.

    Luckily my daily commute is only 13.6 miles total.
    ^^^ That's where we are.  1/10th of one cent below $6 per gallon.
    And what is it with that 1/10th of one cent nonsense?  Dishonest pricing is what I call it!

    Yeah, these are “high” prices for Michigan, but haven’t come close to some of the prices I’ve seen in California. We are down a few cents today though, around $4.12. The high last week was around $4.25-$4.30 in my area. 


    Gas gone down there- wow!  Unusual for right now.
    Right, at least for a few days. I’m sure it will go back up closer to Wednesday/Thursday next week for the weekly gouge. 

    Detroit 2000, Detroit 2003 1-2, Grand Rapids VFC 2004, Philly 2005, Grand Rapids 2006, Detroit 2006, Cleveland 2006, Lollapalooza 2007, Detroit Eddie Solo 2011, Detroit 2014, Chicago 2016 1-2, Chicago 2018 1-2, Ohana Encore 2021 1-2, Chicago Eddie/Earthlings 2022 1-2, Nashville 2022, St. Louis 2022

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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    Hi! said:
    brianlux said:
    Hi! said:
    brianlux said:
    Hi! said:

    ^^^ We're not even close to this.
    JOEJOEJOE said:
    I paid $6/gallon today in Los Angeles at a gas station near UCLA.

    Luckily my daily commute is only 13.6 miles total.
    ^^^ That's where we are.  1/10th of one cent below $6 per gallon.
    And what is it with that 1/10th of one cent nonsense?  Dishonest pricing is what I call it!

    Yeah, these are “high” prices for Michigan, but haven’t come close to some of the prices I’ve seen in California. We are down a few cents today though, around $4.12. The high last week was around $4.25-$4.30 in my area. 


    Gas gone down there- wow!  Unusual for right now.
    Right, at least for a few days. I’m sure it will go back up closer to Wednesday/Thursday next week for the weekly gouge. 

    No doubt, Hi!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258

    https://www.inquirer.com/business/energy/gas-prices-average-four-dollars-gallon-aaa-gasbuddy-20220811.html

    Gas prices fall just below $4 for the first time in 5 months

    Prices have dropped 15 cents in the past week and 68 cents in the last month, according to AAA.

    A motorist fills up the tank on a sedan in Saratoga Wyo
    A motorist fills up the tank on a sedan in Saratoga, Wyo.David Zalubowski / AP

      Gasoline prices dipped to just under the $4 mark for the first time in more than five months — good news for consumers who are struggling with high prices for many other essentials.

      AAA said the national average for a gallon of regular was $3.99 on Thursday.

      Prices have dropped 15 cents in the past week and 68 cents in the last month, according to the auto club.

      The shopping app GasBuddy reported that the national average was already down to $3.98 on Wednesday.

      ADVERTISEMENT

      Falling prices for gas, airline tickets and clothes are giving consumers a bit of relief, although inflation is still close to a four-decade high.

      » READ MORE: Lower prices offer Americans slight reprieve from inflation

      Oil prices began rising in mid-2020 as economies recovered from the initial shock of the pandemic. They rose again when the U.S. and allies announced sanctions against Russian oil over Russia's war against Ukraine.

      Recently, however, oil prices have dropped on concern about slowing economic growth around the world. U.S. benchmark crude oil has recently dipped close to $90 a barrel from over $120 a barrel in June.

      ADVERTISEMENT

      High prices also may be causing U.S. motorists to drive less. Gasoline demand in early August was down 3.3% from the same week last year after tracking more closely to 2021 numbers earlier in the summer.

      Prices at the pump are likely to be a major issue heading into the mid-term elections in November.

      Republicans blame President Joe Biden for the high gasoline prices, seizing on his decisions to cancel a permit for a major pipeline and suspend new oil and gas leases on federal lands.

      Biden said over the weekend that a family with two cars is saving $100 a month because prices have dropped from their peak in mid-June.


      “That's breathing room,” he tweeted. “And we're not letting up any time soon.”

      Biden has also sparred with oil companies, accusing them of not producing as much oil and gasoline as they could while posting huge profits. “Exxon made more money than God this year,” he said in June.

      Exxon said it has increased oil production. The CEO of Chevron said Biden was trying to vilify his industry.

      The nationwide average for gas hasn't been under $4 since early March. Prices topped out at $5.02 a gallon on June 14, according to AAA. They declined slowly the rest of June, then began dropping more rapidly.

      Motorists in California and Hawaii are still paying above $5, and other states in the West are paying close to that. The cheapest gas is in Texas and several other states in the South and Midwest.

      A year ago, the nationwide average price was around $3.20 a gallon.


      chinese-happy.jpg
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      eeriepadaveeeriepadave West Chester, PA Posts: 40,849
      it's about $4.35 where i live now
      bf959b1f-9b77-457c-baf8-038776f33339_zps8a6a389d.jpg?t=1365722973
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      mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,698
      GasBuddy favorites.....

      _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

      Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
      you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
      memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
      another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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      Get_RightGet_Right Posts: 12,479
      $4.50 in Westchester county NY with the occasional $5.50 seen at the rip off stations (i.e. stations where people do not check the price before filling up). There are more than a few around these parts.
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      The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258
      We paid $3.99 near the Outer Banks a couple weeks ago. Hoping we get to that point here in PA by the fall...
      chinese-happy.jpg
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      PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,220
      I've seen a range between $3.79 and $4.69 in my travels the past couple days (excluding the outlier $5.89 I saw earlier today on Mass Ave in Boston's south end)
      This weekend we rock Portland
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      mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,698
      edited August 2022
      sams club by the house 3.09
      _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

      Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
      you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
      memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
      another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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      F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,617
      $309?  What the fuck?
      Damn, that is great.
      The love he receives is the love that is saved
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      brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
      edited August 2022
      $5.49 at Missouri Flat Road Chevron.  I'd like to pay less I suppose, but would rather pay more for quality gas and improve performance and cut down on repairs, so this is fine with me. 
      “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
      Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













    • Options
      mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,698
      $309?  What the fuck?
      Damn, that is great.

      costco.....
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      Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
      you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
      memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
      another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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