Self-defense is one part of this case. A part which, again, I am not talking about. The media is trying to portray this part of the story as if Zimmerman was told to stand down and he defied an order. That is not at all what happened. Again....I am not defending ANY of his actions. I'm just sick of how the media loves to manipulate and distort the facts to play with your emotions. See: NBC editing of the audio tapes of George's phone call.
Well, let's not look to the media for guidance on much these days. If you want to discuss whether or not Zimmerman "defied an order," fine. I won't debate you on that; he didn't defy an "order." But again, in a case where the charge is murder, one element of which is that someone died (no one refutes that), and the charged person says "I was defending myself," whether he defied an order or not couldn't be more irrelevant. The only issue up for debate in this case is self-defense.
It appeared you were trying to link the issue of whether he defied an order to stop following to whether or not he acted in self-defense. If you weren't doing that, I apologize. But of those two issues - self-defense and whether he disobeyed an "order" - one is of complete consequence to this case, and one is not.
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and the other part of the story that get's lost is that Zimmerman was out there as a representative of a neighborhood watch group. he was out there to look for suspicious individuals. and found one.
Any discussion of Martin's disciplinary issues are only relevant if Zimmerman knew of those things before the altercation. Further, self-defense isn't judged by whether Trayvon Martin was "suspicious" looking. It's going to be whether George Zimmerman, without being the instigator, reasonably believed he was subject to imminent attack. The issue of whether he followed Martin then, in defiance of an "order" or not, becomes vital.
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When I read about a rape victim who stalked their attacker through the streets before the attack I will let you know.
Approaching a man is now grounds for getting your head smashed into concrete?
1) That is not an accurate depiction of Zimmerman's actions and 2) "getting your head smashed into concrete" after strapping on your gun, getting in your car, stalking a guy down the street after being told by authorities to stop does not equal someone getting raped.
There is nothing illegal about following someone or walking up to them and asking them questions. If that person retaliates with violence he is 100% in the wrong...
It was previously reported that there had been numerous break ins and other crimes in the area. He carries a weapon, and you automatically assume it's to start trouble.
Millions of people carry 24/7, not to start problems but to protect myself and my family. And as it turns out Trayvon was previously looking for a gun, doesn't that automatically make him a trouble maker according to your logic?
There is nothing illegal about following someone or walking up to them and asking them questions. If that person retaliates with violence he is 100% in the wrong...
It was previously reported that there had been numerous break ins and other crimes in the area. He carries a weapon, and you automatically assume it's to start trouble.
Millions of people carry 24/7, not to start problems but to protect myself and my family. And as it turns out Trayvon was previously looking for a gun, doesn't that automatically make him a trouble maker according to your logic?
Not about my logic and I have assumed nothing of the sort. It is about your comparison of poor, innocent George Zimmerman to a rape victim. Not at all the same thing.
It means he was advised by a non-emergency police dispatcher that they didn't need him to pursue the suspect. This was not an order by an officer of the law...it had no legal ramifications. Essentially it was a suggestion. A suggestion that was ignored, but a suggestion nonetheless.
I say this politely, but that couldn't be more incorrect.
He was told by a non-emergency dispatcher to stop following him. You're right, he was free to continue to do so (which is probably why he's not also charged with say, obstructing legal process or something, right?).
But that fact, that he didn't stop, whether in violation of a police's order or not listening to someone not in a position to make orders, is extremely critical when assessing a self-defense claim.
When you read about a rape victim shooting her attacker do you think she should go to jail for murder?
cant read cursive ????? must be a "cracker" only thing....
Godfather.
Defense attorney Don West grilled Rachel Jeantel about a letter she had a friend write for Martin's parents in the weeks after the February, 2012 incident, describing the phone conversation she had with Martin as he walked from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., back to his father’s fiancee’s home in a gated community. West pressed her on what he indicated were inconsistencies between the letter and Jeantel's subsequent depositions and testimony - in particular her recent revelation that Martin told her he was being followed by a "creepy-ass cracker."
"Why wasn't 'creepy-ass cracker' in prior interviews?" asked West, one of the attorneys for Zimmerman, who is facing a charge of second-degree murder.
"Nobody asked me," replied Jeantel, who said she can't read cursive, which the letter is written in.
You know the defense is grasping at straws when part of there case is admitting that he's a "creepy-ass" cracker. That doesn't do a lot for me in going towards Not Guilty.
right wrong or otherwise he wont get off at least not without a full scale riot.
There is nothing illegal about following someone or walking up to them and asking them questions. If that person retaliates with violence he is 100% in the wrong...
It was previously reported that there had been numerous break ins and other crimes in the area. He carries a weapon, and you automatically assume it's to start trouble.
Millions of people carry 24/7, not to start problems but to protect myself and my family. And as it turns out Trayvon was previously looking for a gun, doesn't that automatically make him a trouble maker according to your logic?
Not about my logic and I have assumed nothing of the sort. It is about your comparison of poor, innocent George Zimmerman to a rape victim. Not at all the same thing.
Its an analogy.... just because you approach someone, that does not give them the right to attack/assault you. And if they do, you are well within your right to perform self defense...
There is nothing illegal about following someone or walking up to them and asking them questions. If that person retaliates with violence he is 100% in the wrong...
It was previously reported that there had been numerous break ins and other crimes in the area. He carries a weapon, and you automatically assume it's to start trouble.
Millions of people carry 24/7, not to start problems but to protect myself and my family. And as it turns out Trayvon was previously looking for a gun, doesn't that automatically make him a trouble maker according to your logic?
Not about my logic and I have assumed nothing of the sort. It is about your comparison of poor, innocent George Zimmerman to a rape victim. Not at all the same thing.
Its an analogy.... just because you approach someone, that does not give them the right to attack/assault you. And if they do, you are well within your right to perform self defense...
I see what you are saying but, again, when I read about a rape victim who behaved the way George Zimmerman did before the attack I'll let you know. And if George Zimmerman had really just "approached" Trayvon Martin as you claim I am willing to bet nobody gets shot that day.
I don't buy any part of Zimmerman's defense. Mostly because Martin is dead because of Zimmerman's actions and not the other way around. Had Martin beat Zimmerman to death it would be more of an example of the Stand your Ground law IMO.
1. He was told to stop pursuit. He responded that "they" will get away with it again. Why does one kid represent all crime in the neighborhood?
2. He gets out of the car to confront Martin. From there there is different variations of what occured. It's clear Martin one the one on one confrontation but there is NO WAY that a 17 year old kid held down a grown man who weighs 30 to 50 pounds more than him. If Zimmerman had the strength to grab his gun he had the stregth to kick Martin off of him and run away. Why didn't he? Becuase of his ego and anger. At least that is what the Prosicution will try to prove.
3. Zimmerman had the "right" to follow Martin, get out of the car, get his ass kicked, and kill Martin suddenly in self defense??? If you confront someone, get in a fight, lose and then kill the person...I have trouble seeing the self defense argument. Had he stayed in the car BOTH would be alive today. Neither would be heading to jail.
4. Hopefully Zimmerman is better at taking directions in prison. He will definitely be made an example of. :twisted:
Well said. Very well said.
Even if I was in Zimmerman's shoes, I wouldve just taken the beating and tried to escape. Well, actually, I would've stayed in my car or not stalked the kid in the first place.
For all the people defending Zimmerman, would you have done the same if you were in his shoes? Follow the kid in your car, going out of your way, then following him on foot in the dark in the rain?
Very well said... LOL...
A concerned citizen keeps a sharp eye out for suspicious characters and calls the the police.
Zimmerman did exactly that.
Yeah LOL indeed,
A concerned citizen? You crack me up. So I guess you're saying you wouldve done the same as Zimmerman? :?
He's an over-zealous, wanna be cop who took it much too far.
There is nothing illegal about following someone or walking up to them and asking them questions. If that person retaliates with violence he is 100% in the wrong...
It was previously reported that there had been numerous break ins and other crimes in the area. He carries a weapon, and you automatically assume it's to start trouble.
Millions of people carry 24/7, not to start problems but to protect myself and my family. And as it turns out Trayvon was previously looking for a gun, doesn't that automatically make him a trouble maker according to your logic?
Not about my logic and I have assumed nothing of the sort. It is about your comparison of poor, innocent George Zimmerman to a rape victim. Not at all the same thing.
Its an analogy.... just because you approach someone, that does not give them the right to attack/assault you. And if they do, you are well within your right to perform self defense...
This is very true. And its also why the Stand your ground law is being highly scrutinized. To what degree is self defense appropriate? However, this is certainly why Zimmerman has a chance to get off, because of a questionable law.
Putting this law aside for a moment, I dont think it was necessary to end someone's life after getting a few noggin scrapes and a punch to the nose. We'll just see if those six women on the jury agree.
And throughout all the proceedings, we've come to see how over dramatic, inaccurate, and honest Zimmerman is. He's an obvious liar, and a piece of shit.
and the other part of the story that get's lost is that Zimmerman was out there as a representative of a neighborhood watch group. he was out there to look for suspicious individuals. and found one.
Any discussion of Martin's disciplinary issues are only relevant if Zimmerman knew of those things before the altercation. Further, self-defense isn't judged by whether Trayvon Martin was "suspicious" looking. It's going to be whether George Zimmerman, without being the instigator, reasonably believed he was subject to imminent attack. The issue of whether he followed Martin then, in defiance of an "order" or not, becomes vital.
Even if self-defense is accepted as a viable defense for Zimmerman, what is (generally speaking) the threshold for using lethal force in that defense? i.e., what justifies firing a gun at someone?
I disagree. Zimmerman will walk. And deserves to walk. Here's why:
He thought he was a good guy.
He was concerned Martin was a bad guy.
He called the cops; if he had any plan to start a fight he would have called buddies to get his back.
Martin kicked his ass fair and square.
He thought his gun would be used to kill him; if he was acting like a gangster he would have had his finger on the trigger before he got punched in the nose.
He was the one screaming for help; nobody yells for help as they are pummeling someone's head. Martin was not beat up, Zimmerman was.
Hey Vant, Martin was a better fighter and tougher than Zimmerman. Size never ever matters in a street fight.
I find Zimmerman's story completely believable. Martin was pissed some dude was following him and when they were face to face he punched him then proceeded to beat the shit out of him. Zimmerman says Martin saw his gun and said "Ur gonna die tonight". Then Zimmerman held his hand got his gun and shot him. It's a fucking shame but he was protecting himself. The gun was legal and Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch cheif or something. He was trying to help his community not rolling around the streets looking for trouble.
It's too bad a young guy died but there are consequences with your actions; if Zimmerman died I would say the same thing. You risk your life anytime you choose to fight.
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Even if self-defense is accepted as a viable defense for Zimmerman, what is (generally speaking) the threshold for using lethal force in that defense? i.e., what justifies firing a gun at someone?
I only practice in Minnesota, so I can only give a general idea of the law in FL. Most self-defense laws (even stand-your-ground statutes) are similar.
In Minnesota, a person may use "reasonable force" against another "in resisting an offense against the person." This generally plays out in court as a "tit-for-tat" type situation: if someone tackles you, you are entitled to do whatever is necessary to get away. This is where it gets dicey for defendants raising the defense: anything beyond what is reasonably necessary to repel the initial offense is prohibited. So, if instead of pushing the person off of you, you push the person away and stand over them, delivering 20 kicks to the ribs, self-defense probably no longer applies to you when you're inevitably charged with assault.
In Minnesota, a defendant is justified in "resisting" an offense only if the defendant (1) has an actual and (2) reasonable belief that serious bodily harm is imminent, (3) does not provoke the incident, and (4) has no reasonable opportunity to retreat.***(this is the difference; under "stand-your-ground," you have no duty to retreat first).
Because self-defense inquiries are so fact intensive (i.e. case-by-case situations, assessed by juries of 6-12 people), what's "reasonable force" really depends. To raise a justifiable use-of-force defense, the defendant must first present a sufficient threshold of evidence to prove he acted in self-defense. If the defense is adequately raised, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense does not apply. Typically, this is how the application of a self-defense claim works, whether in a stand-your-ground state or not.
So, presumably, one of the things the jury will consider in weighing a self-defense claim for Zimmerman, is the reasonableness of his actions. The reason I believe this could be tricky for the defense is the sheer fact that Zimmerman's defense is truly all-or-none; for a jury to even reach the point of reasonableness, they have to first concede that everything Zimmerman says is accurate. In other words, without other witnesses, how else can they even entertain self-defense, if not believing his entire story? That's usually a tall order for a jury, for a number of reasons, and that becomes even more difficult when you factor in the other circumstantial evidence out there (namely, Zimmerman's "pursuit").
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I'm going to let the court system sort this one out.
Mostly because i don't know the facts of the case and I do not rely on the news (and I use that term, 'news', loosely) outlets for factual information.
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I'm going to let the court system sort this one out.
Mostly because i don't know the facts of the case and I do not rely on the news (and I use that term, 'news', loosely) outlets for factual information.
Thanks for letting the court system sort this one out Cosmo. I'll tell you the facts...
It's sad and awful that another young man got shot and died.
It's sad and awful that another young man got kicked out of school, got into shit he shouldn't have, and got into the tough guy culture.
It's unfortunate that average citizens need to watch their own neighborhood.
Zimmerman was an active good neighbor trying to protect the very property and well being of Trayvon Martin who was living in the same neighborhood.
Martin acted suspicious by running when he noticed a person looking at him so the neighborhood watch guy called the cops. :( This is the exact point of the whole problem. In a society people acknowledge each other they don't automatically feel threatened.
Zimmerman was acting responsibly; Martin overreacted, assumed Zimmerman was a "creepy ass cracker", and punched him in the nose. And then (according to the eye witness on the stand) "beat him MMA style".
If Martin was truly scared he could have: ran to his Dad, ran and hid, just ran, or called the cops himself. His friend said he stayed on the phone with her.
I think Trayvon Martin was a tough dude who liked to fight because that is what his texts said, his pics showed, and why he was kicked out of school (all facts). Some guys enjoy fighting, it's a young man thing a lot of times.
I mean c'mon....was Zimmerman out hunting young black kids?
I'm going to let the court system sort this one out.
Mostly because i don't know the facts of the case and I do not rely on the news (and I use that term, 'news', loosely) outlets for factual information.
Thanks for letting the court system sort this one out Cosmo. I'll tell you the facts...
It's sad and awful that another young man got shot and died.
It's sad and awful that another young man got kicked out of school, got into shit he shouldn't have, and got into the tough guy culture.
It's unfortunate that average citizens need to watch their own neighborhood.
Zimmerman was an active good neighbor trying to protect the very property and well being of Trayvon Martin who was living in the same neighborhood.
Martin acted suspicious by running when he noticed a person looking at him so the neighborhood watch guy called the cops. :( This is the exact point of the whole problem. In a society people acknowledge each other they don't automatically feel threatened.
Zimmerman was acting responsibly; Martin overreacted, assumed Zimmerman was a "creepy ass cracker", and punched him in the nose. And then (according to the eye witness on the stand) "beat him MMA style".
If Martin was truly scared he could have: ran to his Dad, ran and hid, just ran, or called the cops himself. His friend said he stayed on the phone with her.
I think Trayvon Martin was a tough dude who liked to fight because that is what his texts said, his pics showed, and why he was kicked out of school (all facts). Some guys enjoy fighting, it's a young man thing a lot of times.
I mean c'mon....was Zimmerman out hunting young black kids?
I get what you are saying, but the fact still stands that Zimmerman was ignoring the police and followed the kid, creeped him out, and all that shit went down.
If Zimmerman doesn't get charged with murder, then I understand, but in my opinion he should get charged with something considering that this all would have been avoided if he had listened to the cops.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
He was charged with murder. 2nd degree murder....didn't he? He is on trial right now. I believe he has been charged with 2nd degree murder. But he could get manslaughter, which incidentally sounds much more brutal IMO.
Zimmerman was acting responsibly; Martin overreacted, assumed Zimmerman was a "creepy ass cracker", and punched him in the nose. And then (according to the eye witness on the stand) "beat him MMA style".
Again I ask, would you have done the same thing as Zimmerman? Drive up to the kid, then after told not to follow, get out of your car in the dark rain, and walk after the kid in the dark, behind houses? Thats what you would've done too?
I mean c'mon....was Zimmerman out hunting young black kids?
Kinda? He had a skewed view of things I think...
definitely a skewed view. Didnt he make dozens of calls to emergency in a years time, none of which amounted to anything? He's a proven liar too.
But I also agree with Cosmo. Lets the courts iron this one out. There's a good chance he'll walk. If he gets off, the Stand Your Ground law will be under the microscope once again.
A resident of the Florida community where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin last year told jurors Friday afternoon how he encountered a bloodied Zimmerman immediately after the confrontation and took pictures of the murder defendant's injuries.
State witness Joe Manalo testified that he took the photos with his cell phone that showed blood on Zimmerman's lip and scalp.
"He had blood running down his nose from both nostrils and over his lips," Manalo told Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.
Manalo said Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, Shellie, and tell her that he just shot someone as cops arrived on the scene.
"He had a cell phone in his hand and he tossed it on the ground asking if I could call his wife," Manalo testified. "He gave me her number. I had a connection right away and said, 'Your husband has been involved in a shooting. He's detained by Sanford police.'"
"Just tell her I shot someone," Manalo recalled Zimmerman saying, to which he obliged.
On cross-examination, defense attorney Don West read a transcript of what Manalo claims Zimmerman told him after the shooting.
"This guy was beating me up and I was defending myself. I shot him," the statement read.
West then asked Manalo, "George Zimmerman asked, 'Am I bleeding?'" Manalo confirmed that he did.
Manalo also confirmed his earlier statement that when the police officer asked him who shot Martin, Zimmerman replied immediately saying that he had.
Earlier on Friday, another neighbor, John Good, testified how he witnessed an MMA-style fracas between Zimmerman and Martin. He described seeing one person straddling another and throwing punches down at the person which he described in a statement as a "ground and pound."
Good said he was watching TV with his wife when they heard a noise and he went out to investigate, despite his wife warning him not to. At first, he thought a dog might be attacking someone, but as he moved closer, he said he observed what looked like "a tussle" between two people.
"It looked like a tussle," Good said. "I could only see one person. At one point, I yelled out, 'What's going on? Stop it,' I believe.
Under questioning by De la Rionda, Good said one of the combatants was straddling a man lying face up on the pavement, and throwing punches. The testimony appeared to corroborate Zimmerman's claims that he shot the 17-year-old African-American with a legally registered gun in self defense, as he was being pummeled.
"I could tell that the person on the bottom had a lighter skin color," testified Good, who also said the person on the bottom appeared to be wearing "white or red," while the one on top wore dark clothing. Zimmerman identified that day as Hispanic and was wearing a red jacket. That also would corroborate Zimmerman's claims he was on the losing end of a violent confrontation when he fired the fatal shot.
But Good said he did not see the person on top slam the other one's head into the pavement. Zimmerman had wounds to his scalp following the confrontation.
Good, who went back inside and was calling 911 when he heard a gunshot, listened as an audio recording of his call was played in the courtroom.
"It looks like there's a black guy down, and he's dead," Good said on the call.
During cross examination, defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to be more specific as to the exact positions of the two men on the ground and even demonstrated in the courtroom asking for visual confirmation. He also asked what Good meant on the 911 call when he said the person on top was engaged in an "MMA-style" move of "ground and pound". The witness also said during testimony that the person on the bottom was unable to move under a flurry of punches.
When O'Mara asked him if the person on top was Martin, Good said: "Correct, that's what it looked like."
Good also said he believed the person on the bottom yelled for help, but later conceded that he was not 100 percent sure it was the person on the bottom calling for help while he was in his house placing the emergency call, only that it "sounded like" it came from the person being attacked.
I guarantee there are still many things about the fight we don't know.
For all we know, they could have switched positions various times, Martin on top beating Zimmerman and vice versa. It's just a matter of who started it.
I am watching the trial now, and basically they are saying the wounds he received do not match how Zimmerman described it. He said his head was being beat into the ground (which is why he shot Martin), but the wound on the back of his head does not show such force was used on his head (and not enough blood). How Zimmerman described it is that his head was "about to explode." I bet it did hurt, but not as bad as he described it, and not much damage to have to pull a gun on someone.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
A resident of the Florida community where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin last year told jurors Friday afternoon how he encountered a bloodied Zimmerman immediately after the confrontation and took pictures of the murder defendant's injuries.
State witness Joe Manalo testified that he took the photos with his cell phone that showed blood on Zimmerman's lip and scalp.
"He had blood running down his nose from both nostrils and over his lips," Manalo told Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.
Manalo said Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, Shellie, and tell her that he just shot someone as cops arrived on the scene.
"He had a cell phone in his hand and he tossed it on the ground asking if I could call his wife," Manalo testified. "He gave me her number. I had a connection right away and said, 'Your husband has been involved in a shooting. He's detained by Sanford police.'"
"Just tell her I shot someone," Manalo recalled Zimmerman saying, to which he obliged.
On cross-examination, defense attorney Don West read a transcript of what Manalo claims Zimmerman told him after the shooting.
"This guy was beating me up and I was defending myself. I shot him," the statement read.
West then asked Manalo, "George Zimmerman asked, 'Am I bleeding?'" Manalo confirmed that he did.
Manalo also confirmed his earlier statement that when the police officer asked him who shot Martin, Zimmerman replied immediately saying that he had.
Earlier on Friday, another neighbor, John Good, testified how he witnessed an MMA-style fracas between Zimmerman and Martin. He described seeing one person straddling another and throwing punches down at the person which he described in a statement as a "ground and pound."
Good said he was watching TV with his wife when they heard a noise and he went out to investigate, despite his wife warning him not to. At first, he thought a dog might be attacking someone, but as he moved closer, he said he observed what looked like "a tussle" between two people.
"It looked like a tussle," Good said. "I could only see one person. At one point, I yelled out, 'What's going on? Stop it,' I believe.
Under questioning by De la Rionda, Good said one of the combatants was straddling a man lying face up on the pavement, and throwing punches. The testimony appeared to corroborate Zimmerman's claims that he shot the 17-year-old African-American with a legally registered gun in self defense, as he was being pummeled.
"I could tell that the person on the bottom had a lighter skin color," testified Good, who also said the person on the bottom appeared to be wearing "white or red," while the one on top wore dark clothing. Zimmerman identified that day as Hispanic and was wearing a red jacket. That also would corroborate Zimmerman's claims he was on the losing end of a violent confrontation when he fired the fatal shot.
But Good said he did not see the person on top slam the other one's head into the pavement. Zimmerman had wounds to his scalp following the confrontation.
Good, who went back inside and was calling 911 when he heard a gunshot, listened as an audio recording of his call was played in the courtroom.
"It looks like there's a black guy down, and he's dead," Good said on the call.
During cross examination, defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to be more specific as to the exact positions of the two men on the ground and even demonstrated in the courtroom asking for visual confirmation. He also asked what Good meant on the 911 call when he said the person on top was engaged in an "MMA-style" move of "ground and pound". The witness also said during testimony that the person on the bottom was unable to move under a flurry of punches.
When O'Mara asked him if the person on top was Martin, Good said: "Correct, that's what it looked like."
Good also said he believed the person on the bottom yelled for help, but later conceded that he was not 100 percent sure it was the person on the bottom calling for help while he was in his house placing the emergency call, only that it "sounded like" it came from the person being attacked.
Wait wait wait, these are witnesses for the State? Why on Earth would the prosecutor call witnesses with testimony that corroborates Zimmerman? Where did you find this recitation of the testimony? Oh wait...never mind.
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A resident of the Florida community where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin last year told jurors Friday afternoon how he encountered a bloodied Zimmerman immediately after the confrontation and took pictures of the murder defendant's injuries.
State witness Joe Manalo testified that he took the photos with his cell phone that showed blood on Zimmerman's lip and scalp.
"He had blood running down his nose from both nostrils and over his lips," Manalo told Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.
Manalo said Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, Shellie, and tell her that he just shot someone as cops arrived on the scene.
"He had a cell phone in his hand and he tossed it on the ground asking if I could call his wife," Manalo testified. "He gave me her number. I had a connection right away and said, 'Your husband has been involved in a shooting. He's detained by Sanford police.'"
"Just tell her I shot someone," Manalo recalled Zimmerman saying, to which he obliged.
On cross-examination, defense attorney Don West read a transcript of what Manalo claims Zimmerman told him after the shooting.
"This guy was beating me up and I was defending myself. I shot him," the statement read.
West then asked Manalo, "George Zimmerman asked, 'Am I bleeding?'" Manalo confirmed that he did.
Manalo also confirmed his earlier statement that when the police officer asked him who shot Martin, Zimmerman replied immediately saying that he had.
Earlier on Friday, another neighbor, John Good, testified how he witnessed an MMA-style fracas between Zimmerman and Martin. He described seeing one person straddling another and throwing punches down at the person which he described in a statement as a "ground and pound."
Good said he was watching TV with his wife when they heard a noise and he went out to investigate, despite his wife warning him not to. At first, he thought a dog might be attacking someone, but as he moved closer, he said he observed what looked like "a tussle" between two people.
"It looked like a tussle," Good said. "I could only see one person. At one point, I yelled out, 'What's going on? Stop it,' I believe.
Under questioning by De la Rionda, Good said one of the combatants was straddling a man lying face up on the pavement, and throwing punches. The testimony appeared to corroborate Zimmerman's claims that he shot the 17-year-old African-American with a legally registered gun in self defense, as he was being pummeled.
"I could tell that the person on the bottom had a lighter skin color," testified Good, who also said the person on the bottom appeared to be wearing "white or red," while the one on top wore dark clothing. Zimmerman identified that day as Hispanic and was wearing a red jacket. That also would corroborate Zimmerman's claims he was on the losing end of a violent confrontation when he fired the fatal shot.
But Good said he did not see the person on top slam the other one's head into the pavement. Zimmerman had wounds to his scalp following the confrontation.
Good, who went back inside and was calling 911 when he heard a gunshot, listened as an audio recording of his call was played in the courtroom.
"It looks like there's a black guy down, and he's dead," Good said on the call.
During cross examination, defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to be more specific as to the exact positions of the two men on the ground and even demonstrated in the courtroom asking for visual confirmation. He also asked what Good meant on the 911 call when he said the person on top was engaged in an "MMA-style" move of "ground and pound". The witness also said during testimony that the person on the bottom was unable to move under a flurry of punches.
When O'Mara asked him if the person on top was Martin, Good said: "Correct, that's what it looked like."
Good also said he believed the person on the bottom yelled for help, but later conceded that he was not 100 percent sure it was the person on the bottom calling for help while he was in his house placing the emergency call, only that it "sounded like" it came from the person being attacked.
Wait wait wait, these are witnesses for the State? Why on Earth would the prosecutor call witnesses with testimony that corroborates Zimmerman? Where did you find this recitation of the testimony? Oh wait...never mind.
lol
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
One side hears testimony that completely confirms and corroborates Zimmerman, and the other hears testimony that confirms there was a fight, but no "head pounding" and was "back and forth."
Sheesh...some newsmen with agendas I guess...
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A resident of the Florida community where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin last year told jurors Friday afternoon how he encountered a bloodied Zimmerman immediately after the confrontation and took pictures of the murder defendant's injuries.
State witness Joe Manalo testified that he took the photos with his cell phone that showed blood on Zimmerman's lip and scalp.
"He had blood running down his nose from both nostrils and over his lips," Manalo told Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.
Manalo said Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, Shellie, and tell her that he just shot someone as cops arrived on the scene.
"He had a cell phone in his hand and he tossed it on the ground asking if I could call his wife," Manalo testified. "He gave me her number. I had a connection right away and said, 'Your husband has been involved in a shooting. He's detained by Sanford police.'"
"Just tell her I shot someone," Manalo recalled Zimmerman saying, to which he obliged.
On cross-examination, defense attorney Don West read a transcript of what Manalo claims Zimmerman told him after the shooting.
"This guy was beating me up and I was defending myself. I shot him," the statement read.
West then asked Manalo, "George Zimmerman asked, 'Am I bleeding?'" Manalo confirmed that he did.
Manalo also confirmed his earlier statement that when the police officer asked him who shot Martin, Zimmerman replied immediately saying that he had.
Earlier on Friday, another neighbor, John Good, testified how he witnessed an MMA-style fracas between Zimmerman and Martin. He described seeing one person straddling another and throwing punches down at the person which he described in a statement as a "ground and pound."
Good said he was watching TV with his wife when they heard a noise and he went out to investigate, despite his wife warning him not to. At first, he thought a dog might be attacking someone, but as he moved closer, he said he observed what looked like "a tussle" between two people.
"It looked like a tussle," Good said. "I could only see one person. At one point, I yelled out, 'What's going on? Stop it,' I believe.
Under questioning by De la Rionda, Good said one of the combatants was straddling a man lying face up on the pavement, and throwing punches. The testimony appeared to corroborate Zimmerman's claims that he shot the 17-year-old African-American with a legally registered gun in self defense, as he was being pummeled.
"I could tell that the person on the bottom had a lighter skin color," testified Good, who also said the person on the bottom appeared to be wearing "white or red," while the one on top wore dark clothing. Zimmerman identified that day as Hispanic and was wearing a red jacket. That also would corroborate Zimmerman's claims he was on the losing end of a violent confrontation when he fired the fatal shot.
But Good said he did not see the person on top slam the other one's head into the pavement. Zimmerman had wounds to his scalp following the confrontation.
Good, who went back inside and was calling 911 when he heard a gunshot, listened as an audio recording of his call was played in the courtroom.
"It looks like there's a black guy down, and he's dead," Good said on the call.
During cross examination, defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to be more specific as to the exact positions of the two men on the ground and even demonstrated in the courtroom asking for visual confirmation. He also asked what Good meant on the 911 call when he said the person on top was engaged in an "MMA-style" move of "ground and pound". The witness also said during testimony that the person on the bottom was unable to move under a flurry of punches.
When O'Mara asked him if the person on top was Martin, Good said: "Correct, that's what it looked like."
Good also said he believed the person on the bottom yelled for help, but later conceded that he was not 100 percent sure it was the person on the bottom calling for help while he was in his house placing the emergency call, only that it "sounded like" it came from the person being attacked.
Wait wait wait, these are witnesses for the State? Why on Earth would the prosecutor call witnesses with testimony that corroborates Zimmerman? Where did you find this recitation of the testimony? Oh wait...never mind.
One side hears testimony that completely confirms and corroborates Zimmerman, and the other hears testimony that confirms there was a fight, but no "head pounding" and was "back and forth."
Sheesh...some newsmen with agendas I guess...
MSNBC is just as bad as Fox News.
I just watch the trial and ignore how the news interprets it.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Question: Is it true that most Americans will try to get out of Jury Duty?
...
If 'Yes'... then, why is America infatuated with sensationalized television Jury Trials?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Question: Is it true that most Americans will try to get out of Jury Duty?
...
If 'Yes'... then, why is America infatuated with sensationalized television Jury Trials?
because it isn't WE who are seated/sequestered for it. Its a variation on gladiator days. Its a human thing.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Question: Is it true that most Americans will try to get out of Jury Duty?
...
If 'Yes'... then, why is America infatuated with sensationalized television Jury Trials?
because it isn't WE who are seated/sequestered for it. Its a variation on gladiator days. Its a human thing.
...
Oh... I get it. We can sit there, in front of our televisions and give our pre-concieved opinions... that don't matter, one way or the other... instead of sitting in a Jury Box where we are forced to weigh all of the testimony, without our biased prejudice, in a fair and just manner... where our verdict actually means something.
...
P.S. If a so-called, 'Legal Expert' ever shows up on your television screen... change the channel. Better yet, hit the OFF button and go back to listening to the latest 'Queens Of The Stone Age' record. It's better for your brain.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Well, let's not look to the media for guidance on much these days. If you want to discuss whether or not Zimmerman "defied an order," fine. I won't debate you on that; he didn't defy an "order." But again, in a case where the charge is murder, one element of which is that someone died (no one refutes that), and the charged person says "I was defending myself," whether he defied an order or not couldn't be more irrelevant. The only issue up for debate in this case is self-defense.
It appeared you were trying to link the issue of whether he defied an order to stop following to whether or not he acted in self-defense. If you weren't doing that, I apologize. But of those two issues - self-defense and whether he disobeyed an "order" - one is of complete consequence to this case, and one is not.
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Any discussion of Martin's disciplinary issues are only relevant if Zimmerman knew of those things before the altercation. Further, self-defense isn't judged by whether Trayvon Martin was "suspicious" looking. It's going to be whether George Zimmerman, without being the instigator, reasonably believed he was subject to imminent attack. The issue of whether he followed Martin then, in defiance of an "order" or not, becomes vital.
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There is nothing illegal about following someone or walking up to them and asking them questions. If that person retaliates with violence he is 100% in the wrong...
It was previously reported that there had been numerous break ins and other crimes in the area. He carries a weapon, and you automatically assume it's to start trouble.
Millions of people carry 24/7, not to start problems but to protect myself and my family. And as it turns out Trayvon was previously looking for a gun, doesn't that automatically make him a trouble maker according to your logic?
Not about my logic and I have assumed nothing of the sort. It is about your comparison of poor, innocent George Zimmerman to a rape victim. Not at all the same thing.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Long time no speak Blockhead
right wrong or otherwise he wont get off at least not without a full scale riot.
Godfather.
I see what you are saying but, again, when I read about a rape victim who behaved the way George Zimmerman did before the attack I'll let you know. And if George Zimmerman had really just "approached" Trayvon Martin as you claim I am willing to bet nobody gets shot that day.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Yeah LOL indeed,
A concerned citizen?
He's an over-zealous, wanna be cop who took it much too far.
This is very true. And its also why the Stand your ground law is being highly scrutinized. To what degree is self defense appropriate? However, this is certainly why Zimmerman has a chance to get off, because of a questionable law.
Putting this law aside for a moment, I dont think it was necessary to end someone's life after getting a few noggin scrapes and a punch to the nose. We'll just see if those six women on the jury agree.
And throughout all the proceedings, we've come to see how over dramatic, inaccurate, and honest Zimmerman is. He's an obvious liar, and a piece of shit.
I only practice in Minnesota, so I can only give a general idea of the law in FL. Most self-defense laws (even stand-your-ground statutes) are similar.
In Minnesota, a person may use "reasonable force" against another "in resisting an offense against the person." This generally plays out in court as a "tit-for-tat" type situation: if someone tackles you, you are entitled to do whatever is necessary to get away. This is where it gets dicey for defendants raising the defense: anything beyond what is reasonably necessary to repel the initial offense is prohibited. So, if instead of pushing the person off of you, you push the person away and stand over them, delivering 20 kicks to the ribs, self-defense probably no longer applies to you when you're inevitably charged with assault.
In Minnesota, a defendant is justified in "resisting" an offense only if the defendant (1) has an actual and (2) reasonable belief that serious bodily harm is imminent, (3) does not provoke the incident, and (4) has no reasonable opportunity to retreat.***(this is the difference; under "stand-your-ground," you have no duty to retreat first).
Because self-defense inquiries are so fact intensive (i.e. case-by-case situations, assessed by juries of 6-12 people), what's "reasonable force" really depends. To raise a justifiable use-of-force defense, the defendant must first present a sufficient threshold of evidence to prove he acted in self-defense. If the defense is adequately raised, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense does not apply. Typically, this is how the application of a self-defense claim works, whether in a stand-your-ground state or not.
So, presumably, one of the things the jury will consider in weighing a self-defense claim for Zimmerman, is the reasonableness of his actions. The reason I believe this could be tricky for the defense is the sheer fact that Zimmerman's defense is truly all-or-none; for a jury to even reach the point of reasonableness, they have to first concede that everything Zimmerman says is accurate. In other words, without other witnesses, how else can they even entertain self-defense, if not believing his entire story? That's usually a tall order for a jury, for a number of reasons, and that becomes even more difficult when you factor in the other circumstantial evidence out there (namely, Zimmerman's "pursuit").
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Mostly because i don't know the facts of the case and I do not rely on the news (and I use that term, 'news', loosely) outlets for factual information.
Hail, Hail!!!
Thanks for letting the court system sort this one out Cosmo. I'll tell you the facts...
It's sad and awful that another young man got shot and died.
It's sad and awful that another young man got kicked out of school, got into shit he shouldn't have, and got into the tough guy culture.
It's unfortunate that average citizens need to watch their own neighborhood.
Zimmerman was an active good neighbor trying to protect the very property and well being of Trayvon Martin who was living in the same neighborhood.
Martin acted suspicious by running when he noticed a person looking at him so the neighborhood watch guy called the cops. :( This is the exact point of the whole problem. In a society people acknowledge each other they don't automatically feel threatened.
Zimmerman was acting responsibly; Martin overreacted, assumed Zimmerman was a "creepy ass cracker", and punched him in the nose. And then (according to the eye witness on the stand) "beat him MMA style".
If Martin was truly scared he could have: ran to his Dad, ran and hid, just ran, or called the cops himself. His friend said he stayed on the phone with her.
I think Trayvon Martin was a tough dude who liked to fight because that is what his texts said, his pics showed, and why he was kicked out of school (all facts). Some guys enjoy fighting, it's a young man thing a lot of times.
I mean c'mon....was Zimmerman out hunting young black kids?
I get what you are saying, but the fact still stands that Zimmerman was ignoring the police and followed the kid, creeped him out, and all that shit went down.
If Zimmerman doesn't get charged with murder, then I understand, but in my opinion he should get charged with something considering that this all would have been avoided if he had listened to the cops.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Again I ask, would you have done the same thing as Zimmerman? Drive up to the kid, then after told not to follow, get out of your car in the dark rain, and walk after the kid in the dark, behind houses? Thats what you would've done too?
definitely a skewed view. Didnt he make dozens of calls to emergency in a years time, none of which amounted to anything? He's a proven liar too.
But I also agree with Cosmo. Lets the courts iron this one out. There's a good chance he'll walk. If he gets off, the Stand Your Ground law will be under the microscope once again.
State witness Joe Manalo testified that he took the photos with his cell phone that showed blood on Zimmerman's lip and scalp.
"He had blood running down his nose from both nostrils and over his lips," Manalo told Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.
Manalo said Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, Shellie, and tell her that he just shot someone as cops arrived on the scene.
"He had a cell phone in his hand and he tossed it on the ground asking if I could call his wife," Manalo testified. "He gave me her number. I had a connection right away and said, 'Your husband has been involved in a shooting. He's detained by Sanford police.'"
"Just tell her I shot someone," Manalo recalled Zimmerman saying, to which he obliged.
On cross-examination, defense attorney Don West read a transcript of what Manalo claims Zimmerman told him after the shooting.
"This guy was beating me up and I was defending myself. I shot him," the statement read.
West then asked Manalo, "George Zimmerman asked, 'Am I bleeding?'" Manalo confirmed that he did.
Manalo also confirmed his earlier statement that when the police officer asked him who shot Martin, Zimmerman replied immediately saying that he had.
Earlier on Friday, another neighbor, John Good, testified how he witnessed an MMA-style fracas between Zimmerman and Martin. He described seeing one person straddling another and throwing punches down at the person which he described in a statement as a "ground and pound."
Good said he was watching TV with his wife when they heard a noise and he went out to investigate, despite his wife warning him not to. At first, he thought a dog might be attacking someone, but as he moved closer, he said he observed what looked like "a tussle" between two people.
"It looked like a tussle," Good said. "I could only see one person. At one point, I yelled out, 'What's going on? Stop it,' I believe.
Under questioning by De la Rionda, Good said one of the combatants was straddling a man lying face up on the pavement, and throwing punches. The testimony appeared to corroborate Zimmerman's claims that he shot the 17-year-old African-American with a legally registered gun in self defense, as he was being pummeled.
"I could tell that the person on the bottom had a lighter skin color," testified Good, who also said the person on the bottom appeared to be wearing "white or red," while the one on top wore dark clothing. Zimmerman identified that day as Hispanic and was wearing a red jacket. That also would corroborate Zimmerman's claims he was on the losing end of a violent confrontation when he fired the fatal shot.
But Good said he did not see the person on top slam the other one's head into the pavement. Zimmerman had wounds to his scalp following the confrontation.
Good, who went back inside and was calling 911 when he heard a gunshot, listened as an audio recording of his call was played in the courtroom.
"It looks like there's a black guy down, and he's dead," Good said on the call.
During cross examination, defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to be more specific as to the exact positions of the two men on the ground and even demonstrated in the courtroom asking for visual confirmation. He also asked what Good meant on the 911 call when he said the person on top was engaged in an "MMA-style" move of "ground and pound". The witness also said during testimony that the person on the bottom was unable to move under a flurry of punches.
When O'Mara asked him if the person on top was Martin, Good said: "Correct, that's what it looked like."
Good also said he believed the person on the bottom yelled for help, but later conceded that he was not 100 percent sure it was the person on the bottom calling for help while he was in his house placing the emergency call, only that it "sounded like" it came from the person being attacked.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/28/zi ... z2XXvG6eDj
For all we know, they could have switched positions various times, Martin on top beating Zimmerman and vice versa. It's just a matter of who started it.
I am watching the trial now, and basically they are saying the wounds he received do not match how Zimmerman described it. He said his head was being beat into the ground (which is why he shot Martin), but the wound on the back of his head does not show such force was used on his head (and not enough blood). How Zimmerman described it is that his head was "about to explode." I bet it did hurt, but not as bad as he described it, and not much damage to have to pull a gun on someone.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Wait wait wait, these are witnesses for the State? Why on Earth would the prosecutor call witnesses with testimony that corroborates Zimmerman? Where did you find this recitation of the testimony? Oh wait...never mind.
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lol
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06 ... hrown?lite
One side hears testimony that completely confirms and corroborates Zimmerman, and the other hears testimony that confirms there was a fight, but no "head pounding" and was "back and forth."
Sheesh...some newsmen with agendas I guess...
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http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28 ... ?hpt=ju_c1
Godfather.
MSNBC is just as bad as Fox News.
I just watch the trial and ignore how the news interprets it.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
...
If 'Yes'... then, why is America infatuated with sensationalized television Jury Trials?
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Oh... I get it. We can sit there, in front of our televisions and give our pre-concieved opinions... that don't matter, one way or the other... instead of sitting in a Jury Box where we are forced to weigh all of the testimony, without our biased prejudice, in a fair and just manner... where our verdict actually means something.
...
P.S. If a so-called, 'Legal Expert' ever shows up on your television screen... change the channel. Better yet, hit the OFF button and go back to listening to the latest 'Queens Of The Stone Age' record. It's better for your brain.
Hail, Hail!!!