Theism/Atheism. Help me.

Cosmo

BinFrog wrote:

Every question has an answer. That doesn't mean we can or will ever know (or understand) the answer to every question.

This has nothing to do with the "meaning of life". It has to do with logic.

...
That is true... every question does have an answer... and sometimes the correct (and truthful) answer is, 'I don't know'.
We will run across people who will tell us they have the answer... but, really just mask them in bumper sticker philosophy. 'Look into your heart... there... you will find what you are looking for'. Sounds great, right? That's from a Mike Meyers movie I saw last Sunday on T.V.
But, isn't that basically what we get from religion? They aren't answers... they are fortune cookies and Hallmark Cards. Inspirational... yes. What we are looking for... nope.
...
My personal take... I am out there looking for truth. For me, Truth lies within the boundaries of knowledge, not belief... understanding, not faith. I don't discount belief and faith... I just don't happen to equate them to truth, knowledge and understanding.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

Logic tells us if there are questions there are answers

eventually

would this not be the meaning to life?

I thought you believed that logic is irrelevant in the context of god?

BinFrog

Cosmo wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

Every question has an answer. That doesn't mean we can or will ever know (or understand) the answer to every question.

This has nothing to do with the "meaning of life". It has to do with logic.

...
That is true... every question does have an answer... and sometimes the correct (and truthful) answer is, 'I don't know'.
We will run across people who will tell us they have the answer... but, really just mask them in bumper sticker philosophy. 'Look into your heart... there... you will find what you are looking for'. Sounds great, right? That's from a Mike Meyers movie I saw last Sunday on T.V.
But, isn't that basically what we get from religion? They aren't answers... they are fortune cookies and Hallmark Cards. Inspirational... yes. What we are looking for... nope.
...
My personal take... I am out there looking for truth. For me, Truth lies within the boundaries of knowledge, not belief... understanding, not faith. I don't discount belief and faith... I just don't happen to equate them to truth, knowledge and understanding.

Pretty much spot on

pandora

One might not know now but that is the whole point
eventually we will know ... not addressing belief nor faith but knowledge
this the logic we live and what history has shown us, in my opinion

PJ_Soul

For me, a devout atheist, it's not so much how science convinces me of God's non-existence (logically, I see no reason why the idea of a god and evolution can't co-exist... you just have to realize that the bible is man-made and edited over and over through the centuries to match the motivations of popes and kings). The main thing that turned me into an atheist is how totally ludicrous the idea of the existence of god is. I mean... an omnipotent being out there somewhere watching us all the time and making decisions on who lives and dies, and making a beetle go this way or that way? The idea that some invisible man in the sky or wherever thinks us humans are so very fucking important above every other animal on earth? Or the tonedbdown version of justbsomething out there with intelligence enough to keep everything somehow connected and to have a conscious role in the beginning of the universe... How these ideas seem even a little bit reasonable to anyone is completely beyond me.

I think you have some work to do. I moved towards atheism simply by thinking for myself and really considering all things. The more I learned of religion, its history, of the bible and all its crazy inconsistencies, and the hypocrisy maintained by all faiths (Catholicism is at the top of that heap), the less I beleived. So the answer I guess is to just learn as much as you can, take in info from all sides, and really think about how it all adds up. Also always keep in mind that ORGANIZED religion is all man made dogma. It's something that developed as a way to control populations. Jesus himselfbwas anti organized religion. If he could see the Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination today, he would be rolling over in his grave!! They are about everything he opposed in reality!!

pandora

PJ_Soul3388 wrote:

For me, a devout atheist, it's not so much how science convinces me of God's non-existence (logically, I see no reason why the idea of a god and evolution can't co-exist... you just have to realize that the bible is man-made and edited over and over through the centuries to match the motivations of popes and kings). The main thing that turned me into an atheist is how totally ludicrous the idea of the existence of god is. I mean... an omnipotent being out there somewhere watching us all the time and making decisions on who lives and dies, and making a beetle go this way or that way? The idea that some invisible man in the sky or wherever thinks us humans are so very fucking important above every other animal on earth? Or the tonedbdown version of justbsomething out there with intelligence enough to keep everything somehow connected and to have a conscious role in the beginning of the universe... How these ideas seem even a little bit reasonable to anyone is completely beyond me.

I think you have some work to do. I moved towards atheism simply by thinking for myself and really considering all things. The more I learned of religion, its history, of the bible and all its crazy inconsistencies, and the hypocrisy maintained by all faiths (Catholicism is at the top of that heap), the less I beleived. So the answer I guess is to just learn as much as you can, take in info from all sides, and really think about how it all adds up. Also always keep in mind that ORGANIZED religion is all man made dogma. It's something that developed as a way to control populations. Jesus himselfbwas anti organized religion. If he could see the Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination today, he would be rolling over in his grave!! They are about everything he opposed in reality!!

From what you are saying here your idea of God is only that of religion...

God and evolution co exist the theory that it can not = religion
many who believe in God know God and evolution co exist.

God is a man in the sky = religion

Bible = religion

God decides who lives and dies = religion

making a beetle go this way or that :? = religion

God keeping everything connected = religion

God created the Universe = religion

Organized religion has nothing to do with my belief in God.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul3388 wrote:

For me, a devout atheist, it's not so much how science convinces me of God's non-existence (logically, I see no reason why the idea of a god and evolution can't co-exist... you just have to realize that the bible is man-made and edited over and over through the centuries to match the motivations of popes and kings). The main thing that turned me into an atheist is how totally ludicrous the idea of the existence of god is. I mean... an omnipotent being out there somewhere watching us all the time and making decisions on who lives and dies, and making a beetle go this way or that way? The idea that some invisible man in the sky or wherever thinks us humans are so very fucking important above every other animal on earth? Or the tonedbdown version of justbsomething out there with intelligence enough to keep everything somehow connected and to have a conscious role in the beginning of the universe... How these ideas seem even a little bit reasonable to anyone is completely beyond me.

I think you have some work to do. I moved towards atheism simply by thinking for myself and really considering all things. The more I learned of religion, its history, of the bible and all its crazy inconsistencies, and the hypocrisy maintained by all faiths (Catholicism is at the top of that heap), the less I beleived. So the answer I guess is to just learn as much as you can, take in info from all sides, and really think about how it all adds up. Also always keep in mind that ORGANIZED religion is all man made dogma. It's something that developed as a way to control populations. Jesus himselfbwas anti organized religion. If he could see the Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination today, he would be rolling over in his grave!! They are about everything he opposed in reality!!

From what you are saying here your idea of God is only that of religion...
?

if you actually read the first paragraph it would be pretty obvious to you that that's not the case.

pandora

I read again and still agree with my rather inebriated St. Paddy's day post

thought I can type much better now so I would explain

Hugh Freaking Dillon

but he clearly divides the two ideas, God and religion, into two seperate ideas and paragraphs. to me that gives you your answer, that no, god does not equal religion. we all know that.

mysticweed

Vitalogy Man wrote:

Evolution and the existence of God are NOT mutually exclusive.

Evolution IS God's plan, in my very humble O.

Good luck to you man.

i have no trouble with (a) god and evolution
the universes in their entirety cannot just BE
all these masses of hot dense matter came from some fucking where
(a) god created humanity from a single cell, but at what point were souls inserted?
once we stood upright?
maybe
once the primal needs of food and shelter were secured
then more food and better shelters
then we started thinking and thinking and thinking
curious and curiouser, we had to find something to worship
i only hope that this god knows each one of us
but this is where i get off
i'm actually a little afraid that there is no other side
but if there is we all will go, or none of us at all

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

I read again and still agree with my rather inebriated St. Paddy's day post

thought I can type much better now so I would explain

My post made a pretty clear distinction between the idea of God and organized religion, as the others pointed out. If you're still not reading it that way upon further consideration, sorry, but I respectfully suggest that you're just reading what you want to read from the post rather than taking in what it actually says.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

God and evolution co exist the theory that it can not = religion
many who believe in God know God and evolution co exist.

God is a man in the sky = religion

Bible = religion

God decides who lives and dies = religion

making a beetle go this way or that :? = religion

God keeping everything connected = religion

God created the Universe = religion

Organized religion has nothing to do with my belief in God.

if all of those things in your opinion are strictly religious beliefs, what is his role in the lives of humans/Earth/all living things?

pandora

PJ_Soul3388 wrote:

pandora wrote:

I read again and still agree with my rather inebriated St. Paddy's day post

thought I can type much better now so I would explain

My post made a pretty clear distinction between the idea of God and organized religion, as the others pointed out. If you're still not reading it that way upon further consideration, sorry, but I respectfully suggest that you're just reading what you want to read from the post rather than taking in what it actually says.

Please be so kind and patient with me and point out the difference.
Religion is referenced in both paragraphs
and mentioned a lot in connection with your lack of belief in God.

In my previous post where I quoted you and your post we are referring to
I listed the references you made and how they seemed to be pointing at man made religion
not the existence of a supreme being without any connection to religion.

I may not always interpret others correctly so perhaps you can explain it.

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

God and evolution co exist the theory that it can not = religion
many who believe in God know God and evolution co exist.

God is a man in the sky = religion

Bible = religion

God decides who lives and dies = religion

making a beetle go this way or that :? = religion

God keeping everything connected = religion

God created the Universe = religion

Organized religion has nothing to do with my belief in God.

if all of those things in your opinion are strictly religious beliefs, what is his role in the lives of humans/Earth/all living things?

I have put you on foe...
your last words to me I quote you....

"STAY AWAY FROM ME I MEAN IT!"
Perhaps you could heed those words and do the same for me, put me on foe also.

Thanks ... appreciated

this should avoid future troubles

PJ_Soul

slickweed wrote:

i'm actually a little afraid that there is no other side
but if there is we all will go, or none of us at all

I'd just like to point out that atheism and an after life are not mutually exclusive either. I see no reason why people couldn't believe in an after life without believing in God. In fact, to me an afterlife without a god seems MORE reasonable than one with a god. I don't personally believe it's likely, but I think it's at least possible that we somehow continue on consciously after death by some natural scientific process. I find that MUCH more likely than some God having anything to do with it. I don't find the idea of our souls or energy or whatever carrying on the universe totally impossible and ridiculous because energy never dies and it's conceivable (though not likely) that our consciousness is in itself an energy. And there has, i supposed, been tangible evidence suggesting that ghosts or spirits might actually exist (again, i don't personally think it likely, but nonetheless, there is still a basis to go on). I find the idea of the existence of god, however, to be totally ridiculous and totally unfounded in every way. So... I just don't get why so many people decide that god is automatically synonymous with an afterlife. Has it simply been burned into the subconscious of the human culture by now or what??

pandora

slickweed wrote:

Vitalogy Man wrote:

Evolution and the existence of God are NOT mutually exclusive.

Evolution IS God's plan, in my very humble O.

Good luck to you man.

i have no trouble with (a) god and evolution
the universes in their entirety cannot just BE
all these masses of hot dense matter came from some fucking where
(a) god created humanity from a single cell, but at what point were souls inserted?
once we stood upright?
maybe
once the primal needs of food and shelter were secured
then more food and better shelters
then we started thinking and thinking and thinking
curious and curiouser, we had to find something to worship
i only hope that this god knows each one of us
but this is where i get off
i'm actually a little afraid that there is no other side
but if there is we all will go, or none of us at all

This reads as a lovely philosophy and very much how I feel about God and the path we are on.
Thanks for sharing.

pandora

PJ_Soul3388 wrote:

slickweed wrote:

i'm actually a little afraid that there is no other side
but if there is we all will go, or none of us at all

I'd just like to point out that atheism and an after life are not mutually exclusive either. I see no reason why people couldn't believe in an after life without believing in God. In fact, to me an afterlife without a god seems MORE reasonable than one with a god. I don't personally believe it's likely, but I think it's at least possible that we somehow continue on consciously after death by some natural scientific process. I find that MUCH more likely than some God having anything to do with it. I don't find the idea of our souls or energy or whatever carrying on the universe totally impossible and ridiculous because energy never dies and it's conceivable (though not likely) that our consciousness is in itself an energy. And there has, i supposed, been tangible evidence suggesting that ghosts or spirits might actually exist (again, i don't personally think it likely, but nonetheless, there is still a basis to go on). I find the idea of the existence of god, however, to be totally ridiculous and totally unfounded in every way. So... I just don't get why so many people decide that god is automatically synonymous with an afterlife. Has it simply been burned into the subconscious of the human culture by now or what??

And our energy living on... could that be God?

PJ_Soul

Pandora. This is for you. sorry, I've got a St paddy's day hangover from hell, so I do not have the patience to interpret my post to you. I think it is clear enough, and, again, you are just seeing what you want to see. Let me simply guarantee you that I know the possible differences between god and religion, and also the reasons most people actually do not distinguish the two as much as they like to believe they do, and that includes you. If you think the entire idea of god can simply be some random, non-conscious ineffable thing that connects all things, you actually don't believe in god. You've grasped onto something else and named it god. It's like me just believing in science and natural processes and calling that power god. It just doesn't work that way (i mean, do whatbyou want, bjt it's not gonna flyv in conversations about theism vs atheism. I'm sure you're smart, but trust me, you don't have the market cornered on understanding.the sense of connection in the world. We all do really get what you're trying to say all the time. Many of us just don't agree with the viewpoint or way you've decided to define your "God" in relation to the conversations you tend to participate in. You're often putting forth this "god isn't religion" argument, and I don't personally think you ever make a very good point with it).As for the following, enjoy both clips! I have no clue if you love Jesus or if Jesus is a non-factor form you, but I still thought of these when I read your posts, and I think you make about as much sense as the first video. I warn you notbto get involved in the YouTube posts on these though. Your head might explode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYl ... ata_player



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBo7Z_a ... ata_player

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul3388 wrote:

slickweed wrote:

i'm actually a little afraid that there is no other side
but if there is we all will go, or none of us at all

I'd just like to point out that atheism and an after life are not mutually exclusive either. I see no reason why people couldn't believe in an after life without believing in God. In fact, to me an afterlife without a god seems MORE reasonable than one with a god. I don't personally believe it's likely, but I think it's at least possible that we somehow continue on consciously after death by some natural scientific process. I find that MUCH more likely than some God having anything to do with it. I don't find the idea of our souls or energy or whatever carrying on the universe totally impossible and ridiculous because energy never dies and it's conceivable (though not likely) that our consciousness is in itself an energy. And there has, i supposed, been tangible evidence suggesting that ghosts or spirits might actually exist (again, i don't personally think it likely, but nonetheless, there is still a basis to go on). I find the idea of the existence of god, however, to be totally ridiculous and totally unfounded in every way. So... I just don't get why so many people decide that god is automatically synonymous with an afterlife. Has it simply been burned into the subconscious of the human culture by now or what??

And our energy living on... could that be God?

No. Please find a dictionary, look up God. Then find a grade 8 science textbook and read up on the nature of energy.

pandora

PJ_Soul3388 wrote:

Pandora. This is for you. sorry, I've got a St paddy's day hangover from hell, so I do not have the patience to interpret my post to you. I think it is clear enough, and, again, you are just seeing what you want to see. Let me simply guarantee you that I know the possible differences between god and religion, and also the reasons most people actually do not distinguish the two as much as they like to believe they do, and that includes you. If you think the entire idea of god can simply be some random, non-conscious ineffable thing that connects all things, you actually don't believe in god. You've grasped onto something else and named it god. It's like me just believing in science and natural processes and calling that power god. It just doesn't work that way (i mean, do whatbyou want, bjt it's not gonna flyv in conversations about theism vs atheism. I'm sure you're smart, but trust me, you don't have the market cornered on understanding.the sense of connection in the world. We all do really get what you're trying to say all the time. Many of us just don't agree with the viewpoint or way you've decided to define your "God" in relation to the conversations you tend to participate in. You're often putting forth this "god isn't religion" argument, and I don't personally think you ever make a very good point with it).As for the following, enjoy both clips! I have no clue if you love Jesus or if Jesus is a non-factor form you, but I still thought of these when I read your posts, and I think you make about as much sense as the first video. I warn you notbto get involved in the YouTube posts on these though. Your head might explode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYl ... ata_player



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBo7Z_a ... ata_player

Sorry you have a hangover... makes ya a little cranky I see

a lot of words and surely time and energy to even look up the youtubes when you could
have just explained the differences as you see it....
instead of trying to put down what I believe and share.

Ho hum that is very transparent.

I know nothing ... zip about religion ...
so I can not tie my belief in a supreme being to any man made religion.
I think using the word God TO YOU means that it is tied to religion.
I do not feel this way.

I have not grasped on to anything I have been shown in my life experiences,
it is from these that my beliefs have changed.
This from being an atheist to that of a believer. It is from these that I know God.

Your life experiences have not shown or taught you God perhaps because you will not allow that.
Its very obvious you tie God and religion together for yourself personally
though you will not admit that I guess.

God isn't religion is not only for me it is for many... a growing feeling of those
who have found the same through their experiences. I am certainly not alone.

I am not Christian but I do celebrate Christmas