Joe Paterno just died

FiveB247x

Absolutely.. it's a no brainer. People just prefer to canonize the dead.

Cosmo wrote:

My take... after reviewing more of the Grand Jury testimony.
There is nothing Joe Paterno could have done to save the kid that was reported by McQueary...
BUT, Paterno COULD have done something to save the kids that Sandusky assaulted AFTER that. Instead, he chose the path that considered how this would affect Penn State football and went to Penn State University authorities, instead of local law enforcement. Had Paterno done that, involved local police (not University officials), Sandusky may have been stopped in 2002, thus, saving the victims beyond the 2002 incident.
Paterno should be remembered for his accomplishments regarding Penn State football... but, he also needs to be remembered for his UNHEROIC act of doing nothing for those victims.

Cosmo

shadowcast wrote:

That is a very fair statement. I'm with you about he couldn't have done nothing about the events that took place prior to 2002. But, with him being the figure head and working with kids especially some of these football players who do not come from the best homes. He should have and was obligated to do more than to report to the head of financing.

Side note: I understand that he had a lot of wins but during all of his years he was only able to muster up 2 National Titles?

...
The issue I have with this... Joe Paterno... was he a 'Hero'? I mean, 85... was he a Korean War veteran?
I give him credit for his football coaching skills... but, does that qualify as 'Heroic'? Wouldn't that mean that Bill Belichick is also a 'hero'?
I have heard on the talk radio about him being a Hero. To me, a Hero would have done whatever it takes to stop a sexual predator, regardless of any relationship between them.

EdsonNascimento

Cosmo wrote:

My take... after reviewing more of the Grand Jury testimony.
There is nothing Joe Paterno could have done to save the kid that was reported by McQueary...
BUT, Paterno COULD have done something to save the kids that Sandusky assaulted AFTER that. Instead, he chose the path that considered how this would affect Penn State football and went to Penn State University authorities, instead of local law enforcement. Had Paterno done that, involved local police (not University officials), Sandusky may have been stopped in 2002, thus, saving the victims beyond the 2002 incident.
Paterno should be remembered for his accomplishments regarding Penn State football... but, he also needs to be remembered for his UNHEROIC act of doing nothing for those victims.

Don't forget there's also evidence he most likely knew in 1998 or 1999 which resulted in a relatively young "next in line to the throne" (Sandusky) to be let go with no real great explanation provided.

pandora

FiveB247x wrote:

Actually he died of complications of a form of cancer and probably of age (85).

Secondly, regardless of being a figure in sports or not, gross misconduct is not reporting it to POLICE. Simply because you have an employer or you work in the sports field or are an athlete, doesn't remove you from being a decent, normal human being. Anyone from any walk of life should have contacted the Police either immediately or after seeing the school didn't do anything bout it.

pandora wrote:

I may not be up to speed on all the facts ... this a worn out subject for me

He went to his superiors... would he have gone to the police in hindsight
most likely

This speaks to the rampant misconduct of men in sports not just this situation
but more than we know ... excepted rights into passage... gross misconduct and
attracting the worse of the worse... but this was not Joe Paterno.

And yes he was a victim also... dying with a broken heart.

Of course I do not defend him not going to the police
we see this with all kinds of abuse in all kinds of situations ...
geez...
a woman could be being attacked on the street and people ignore
not wanting to get involved
or after the fact people don't tell the police what they know
and yes these people are to blame they should get involved,
we all should get involved and some will but some will not, also.

The gross misconduct is that this is not unusual in men's sports was my point
looks like it is more common place than we know and has been going on a very long time.
THIS is what needs to be addressed to protect our children.

Not saying it was right and as I said I'm sure he felt by the time he left this world
that he was not right in how he handled this.
I just understand what happened with Joe and it seems he was not alone,
others also made mistakes.

As far as dying from cancer ... just shows what stress can do to an elderly person
and I stand by my statement ... his heart was broken.

pandora

prism wrote:

i empathize with the kids therefore i've no sympathy for joe paterno. i haven't said anything about any of this until now just because it sickens me so... but...

sorry pandora...i totally agree with others in saying he was NOT a victim. he had the knowledge that children were being sexually assaulted in the lockerroom, but he chose to turn a blind eye. all in favor of protecting the reputation of penn state football, rather than going directly to the police as he was obligated to when it comes to any abuse, especially child sex abuse(even if it's only suspected.) it made him an enabler that allowed for sandusky to continue molesting kids (& how many additional)

he was 85 and died of lung cancer complications, not of a broken heart. before spouting such nonsense you might well want to consider the broken hearts of the boys & their familes that he failed by his inaction

truth is he didn't give enough of a shit about defenseless children to file a police report that would've brought sandusky under investigation, thus brought the abuse of those kids to a halt, instead of it going on for years...how is a coach allowing an assistant or ex-asstistant coach to molest kids anything other than gross misconduct?

Who did go to the police ... his superiors when he told them?
The fella that witnessed the assault?

Hmmm seems plenty are guilty but Old Joe takes all the fall :?

I guess you can see he is an evil man ... this I do not see at all.

Only an evil man would not take all this to heart, this why I know his heart was broken,
along with those who were victimized that he could have prevented.

I guess some people don't realize he knew that he himself was guilty
this broke his heart... this guilt this shame he carries to beyond the grave

EdsonNascimento

pandora wrote:

Who did go to the police ... his superiors when he told them?
The fella that witnessed the assault?

Hmmm seems plenty are guilty but Old Joe takes all the fall :?

I guess you can see he is an evil man ... this I do not see at all.

Only an evil man would not take all this to heart, this why I know his heart was broken,
along with those who were victimized that he could have prevented.

I guess some people don't realize he knew that he himself was guilty
this broke his heart... this guilt this shame he carries to beyond the grave

These are the facts:

1) Those that have the furthest to fall always fall the furthest.
2) Paterno was (and may apparently still be) the most powerful man in the State of Pennsylvania (let alone Happy Valley).
3) It is more understandable that his underlings (which is pretty much everyone else involved) followed his lead.

Yes, they all bear responsibility as well. But, he takes the most because he had the most responsibility. It's easy to be the king when all you want is the easy jobs. Do you see that everyone involved in the program are being removed (what connection did their new coach have to Penn State?). Do you think it's going to be easy for Mike McQueary to get a job somewhere else carrying this baggage? His punishment (if you will) is in that. What was Paterno's? He had nothing to lose (so what he didn't get to leave end of the season - boohoo!).

Adversity does not build character. It reveals character.

keeponrockin

pandora wrote:

prism wrote:

i empathize with the kids therefore i've no sympathy for joe paterno. i haven't said anything about any of this until now just because it sickens me so... but...

sorry pandora...i totally agree with others in saying he was NOT a victim. he had the knowledge that children were being sexually assaulted in the lockerroom, but he chose to turn a blind eye. all in favor of protecting the reputation of penn state football, rather than going directly to the police as he was obligated to when it comes to any abuse, especially child sex abuse(even if it's only suspected.) it made him an enabler that allowed for sandusky to continue molesting kids (& how many additional)

he was 85 and died of lung cancer complications, not of a broken heart. before spouting such nonsense you might well want to consider the broken hearts of the boys & their familes that he failed by his inaction

truth is he didn't give enough of a shit about defenseless children to file a police report that would've brought sandusky under investigation, thus brought the abuse of those kids to a halt, instead of it going on for years...how is a coach allowing an assistant or ex-asstistant coach to molest kids anything other than gross misconduct?

Who did go to the police ... his superiors when he told them?
The fella that witnessed the assault?

Hmmm seems plenty are guilty but Old Joe takes all the fall :?

I guess you can see he is an evil man ... this I do not see at all.

Only an evil man would not take all this to heart, this why I know his heart was broken,
along with those who were victimized that he could have prevented.

I guess some people don't realize he knew that he himself was guilty
this broke his heart... this guilt this shame he carries to beyond the grave

IF he knew he was guilty, and felt remorse, why did he wait until the media broke the story to get out and apologize for it? He knew the grand jury investigation was going on.

Son of a bitch only felt guilty because people found out about it.

pandora

EdsonNascimento wrote:

pandora wrote:

Who did go to the police ... his superiors when he told them?
The fella that witnessed the assault?

Hmmm seems plenty are guilty but Old Joe takes all the fall :?

I guess you can see he is an evil man ... this I do not see at all.

Only an evil man would not take all this to heart, this why I know his heart was broken,
along with those who were victimized that he could have prevented.

I guess some people don't realize he knew that he himself was guilty
this broke his heart... this guilt this shame he carries to beyond the grave

These are the facts:

1) Those that have the furthest to fall always fall the furthest.
2) Paterno was (and may apparently still be) the most powerful man in the State of Pennsylvania (let alone Happy Valley).
3) It is more understandable that his underlings (which is pretty much everyone else involved) followed his lead.

Yes, they all bear responsibility as well. But, he takes the most because he had the most responsibility. It's easy to be the king when all you want is the easy jobs. Do you see that everyone involved in the program are being removed (what connection did their new coach have to Penn State?). Do you think it's going to be easy for Mike McQueary to get a job somewhere else carrying this baggage? His punishment (if you will) is in that. What was Paterno's? He had nothing to lose (so what he didn't get to leave end of the season - boohoo!).

Adversity does not build character. It reveals character.

Obviously I do not know these facts because I had heard Joe went to his superiors
when told about the assault that he himself did not witness, that he was not in a position
at the school to handle ... that only his superiors were.

So you think Joe's punishment was to leave the season early... really?
I guess you and are are very different on what we consider punishment.

And I wonder before this horrible tragedy... what you might have thought
of Joe, his adversity in his long life and his character.

Judge not a heart you can not feel.

pandora

keeponrockin wrote:

IF he knew he was guilty, and felt remorse, why did he wait until the media broke the story to get out and apologize for it? He knew the grand jury investigation was going on.

Son of a bitch only felt guilty because people found out about it.

The same reason he never came forward which is one you will not
or choose not to understand.

From your words I see you feel he is without remorse and an evil man

this we can not agree on
so we will agree to disagree on Joe's heart

but I do agree with you of his guilt

FiveB247x

Pandora how come you keep making excuses? If you got a report at work saying that a coworker of yours was inappropriately was touching kids would you pass it along to your supervisor and then just forget about it and go about your business and work with this person there-after? How can you possibly make excuses for this course of neglect? Of course others at Penn St are guilty as well, but Paterno never contacted police or mentioned it there-after? That's pathetic and no human being with any source of respect for themselves or others acts this way. I don't care if he was a good coach or won silly football games, this man neglected this problem and the fact that he died there-after - who cares. He probably died of shame more than anything.

pandora wrote:

So you think Joe's punishment was to leave the season early... really?
I guess you and are are very different on what we consider punishment.

And I wonder before this horrible tragedy... what you might have thought
of Joe, his adversity in his long life and his character.

Judge not a heart you can not feel.

chadwick

keeponrockin wrote:

Son of a bitch only felt guilty because people found out about it.

this

chadwick

what if paterno enjoyed kids as well?

EdsonNascimento

pandora wrote:

Obviously I do not know these facts because I had heard Joe went to his superiors
when told about the assault that he himself did not witness, that he was not in a position
at the school to handle ... that only his superiors were.

So you think Joe's punishment was to leave the season early... really?
I guess you and are are very different on what we consider punishment.

And I wonder before this horrible tragedy... what you might have thought
of Joe, his adversity in his long life and his character.

Judge not a heart you can not feel.

Ha, ha. He had no SUPERIORS. That's what you keep missing. They worked for him. Perfect examples - same folks came to him to get him to retire 10 years ago and he showed them the door.

And, no that is not what I said about his punishment.

I never thought much about Joe Paterno. Seemed like a good guy. I had not other reason to believe otherwise because he was powerful enough to cover up man's greatest transgression - the unwillingness to protect the weakest among us - children.

josevolution

chadwick wrote:

what if paterno enjoyed kids as well?

I'm sure we will never learn the complete truth ....to this whole web of dirt and unspeakable acts done on so many kids it's a fucking shame really , because i believe who ever was involved should be exposed ....

EdsonNascimento

pandora wrote:

Judge not a heart you can not feel.

And stop with this crap. IT sounds good, but doesn't have any basis in reality. I'm not judging his heart. I'm not trying to feel his pain.

He knowingly let children be raped that he could have prevented. I don't need to know what his metaphorical heart feels or is (I can't believe people actually talk this way).

I am a coach for a community program. My (true) superiors are those that run the program. If I heard of this from my assistant coach, I would go to the police and not my superiors. Why should this be any different? (Especially when he was the de facto boss).

chadwick

josevolution wrote:

chadwick wrote:

what if paterno enjoyed kids as well?

I'm sure we will never learn the complete truth ....to this whole web of dirt and unspeakable acts done on so many kids it's a fucking shame really , because i believe who ever was involved should be exposed ....

isn't there a whole fucking thing about bidders, some kinda auction or something? i know i read it on here somewhere, and something about a missing person later found murdered and a missing/found demolished computer/hard drive found in a river?

pandora

EdsonNascimento wrote:

pandora wrote:

Obviously I do not know these facts because I had heard Joe went to his superiors
when told about the assault that he himself did not witness, that he was not in a position
at the school to handle ... that only his superiors were.

So you think Joe's punishment was to leave the season early... really?
I guess you and are are very different on what we consider punishment.

And I wonder before this horrible tragedy... what you might have thought
of Joe, his adversity in his long life and his character.

Judge not a heart you can not feel.

Ha, ha. He had no SUPERIORS. That's what you keep missing. They worked for him. Perfect examples - same folks came to him to get him to retire 10 years ago and he showed them the door.

And, no that is not what I said about his punishment.

I never thought much about Joe Paterno. Seemed like a good guy. I had not other reason to believe otherwise because he was powerful enough to cover up man's greatest transgression - the unwillingness to protect the weakest among us - children.

In 2002, Penn State graduate assistant Mike McQueary told Paterno that he’d witnessed Sandusky assaulting a boy in the locker room shower, Paterno told athletic director Tim Curley, then later informed vice president of business and finance Gary Schultz, according to the report.

Schultz and Curley said they told university president Graham Spanier, and a decision was made to not allow Sandusky back on campus with boys from his charity, The Second Mile. No one informed police.

Curley and Schultz have been charged with perjury and failure to report the incident to authorities, as required by state law. Curley is on administrative leave from Penn State. Spanier was fired with Paterno on Wednesday.



Sounds like he had some superiors and the University President was told.

again not defending what he did or didn't do ... just understanding it

understanding does not make it right

prism

keeponrockin wrote:

pandora wrote:

prism wrote:

i empathize with the kids therefore i've no sympathy for joe paterno. i haven't said anything about any of this until now just because it sickens me so... but...

sorry pandora...i totally agree with others in saying he was NOT a victim. he had the knowledge that children were being sexually assaulted in the lockerroom, but he chose to turn a blind eye. all in favor of protecting the reputation of penn state football, rather than going directly to the police as he was obligated to when it comes to any abuse, especially child sex abuse(even if it's only suspected.) it made him an enabler that allowed for sandusky to continue molesting kids (& how many additional)

he was 85 and died of lung cancer complications, not of a broken heart. before spouting such nonsense you might well want to consider the broken hearts of the boys & their familes that he failed by his inaction

truth is he didn't give enough of a shit about defenseless children to file a police report that would've brought sandusky under investigation, thus brought the abuse of those kids to a halt, instead of it going on for years...how is a coach allowing an assistant or ex-asstistant coach to molest kids anything other than gross misconduct?

Who did go to the police ... his superiors when he told them?
The fella that witnessed the assault?

Hmmm seems plenty are guilty but Old Joe takes all the fall :?

I guess you can see he is an evil man ... this I do not see at all.

Only an evil man would not take all this to heart, this why I know his heart was broken,
along with those who were victimized that he could have prevented.

I guess some people don't realize he knew that he himself was guilty
this broke his heart... this guilt this shame he carries to beyond the grave

IF he knew he was guilty, and felt remorse, why did he wait until the media broke the story to get out and apologize for it? He knew the grand jury investigation was going on.

Son of a bitch only felt guilty because people found out about it.

exactly. where the hell was all of his broken-hearted remorse for his inactions before the story broke?

can't help but wonder what an insult it must be to those boys/men that survived the sexual abuse when facts are gloss over to exalt paterno as a hero and he's refered to as 'a victim.'

he (and others) failed their obligation to protect the kids but rather chose to protect the football program and his pedophile friend sandusky instead...so he's responsibile for his broken heart (as you put it.) you keep apologizing for his enabling the abuse...as if it's somehow excuseable because of the postion of power he was in :roll:

may be a cliche but this quote sums it up well;

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" -Edmund Burke

pandora

EdsonNascimento wrote:

pandora wrote:

Judge not a heart you can not feel.

And stop with this crap. IT sounds good, but doesn't have any basis in reality. I'm not judging his heart. I'm not trying to feel his pain.

He knowingly let children be raped that he could have prevented. I don't need to know what his metaphorical heart feels or is (I can't believe people actually talk this way).

I am a coach for a community program. My (true) superiors are those that run the program. If I heard of this from my assistant coach, I would go to the police and not my superiors. Why should this be any different? (Especially when he was the de facto boss).

I am not defending him I am understanding him and you don't have to
we can agree to disagree on how we feel about this man

and of course you would and should go to the police I might think after
you went to your superiors too though ... a united front

would you think your superiors would cover it up then? :?

EdsonNascimento

pandora wrote:

Sounds like he had some superiors and the University President was told.

again not defending what he did or didn't do ... just understanding it

understanding does not make it right

He had no real superiors. They were superiors in name only. I don't even thing the apologists would argue with that FACT - Yes - it is FACT.